What does echoes NEED to do to not end up as a shadow dragon 2.0?

[Dinar87]

I'd wager that having a revamped story on par with path of radiance, having supports, introducing new classes like axe wielders, third tiers, etc... could all help prevent this game from being a sales disaster around the world like shadow dragon. Because I doubt we'll get more remakes (especially for 4 and 5 of all things) if this game tanks in sales. More likely they'll go further into waifu territory more than ever if it's shown once again that appealing to classic fans is a waste of resources compared to newer fans and I seriously don't want that to happen. But a part of me is extremely worried we won't even get things like supports which would almost ruin the entire game for me since that would likely indicate the story would be bare bones as well.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

Tellius was the sales disaster.

SD actually didn't do half bad.

I actually hope Gaiden Echoes is just as faithful as SD. Love or hate Gaiden, at the end of the day I want it to be Gaiden.

[Azz]

3 minutes ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

Tellius was the sales disaster.

SD actually didn't do half bad.

I actually hope Gaiden Echoes is just as faithful as SD. Love or hate Gaiden, at the end of the day I want it to be Gaiden.

Pretty much this.

I just want more character development and the story to be told better since the NES really couldn't develop characters or the story that much. I'm probably in the minority but I mainly play FE for the story and TBH, just an updated story and characters with the current graphics and stuff from Fates would do me.

 

[Hardin]

Echoes has the benefit of riding off the coattails of a very popular and successful game plus the boost that a very causal friendly FE Heroes will give it. The situation is very different between then and now. 

[VincentASM]

From the trailer, it's looking like Echoes is off to a fantastic start (great graphics, animated movies, voice acting, top tier character artist, etc.). I think they just need support or base conversations to reel in the long-time or even Awakening/Fates fans.

New Mystery showed us that IS can make a real good remake if they wanted to.

[EricaofRenais]

Gaiden has a lot more interesting things to work with then the first FE had.  All the things that make Gaiden stand out I think will help it sell, plus what others have said they are marketing this game better and FE is much more popular then it was when SD came out.  The only things I can see that would be good if added would be a causal mode for people who are new to the series/don't want to deal with permadeath, adding support or base conversations like others have said and fixing the bugs that makes Gaiden need a remake in the first place.

Edit: FE Echoes is in the best sellers list on Amazon right now so I think it will do well in sales.

Edited January 22, 2017 by EricaofRenais

[Etrurian emperor]

Its quite simple. They just need to give every character a bit of personality and give the story a bit more meat. 

 

[Nobody]

whatever it is, i hope they don't do it

love Shadow Dragon

 

Also, the Tellius games were the sales disasters, not Shadow Dragon. Shadow Dragon outsold both of them

Edited January 22, 2017 by Nobody

[Jeheza]

Pretty much what most of the people have said here. Improving story and character depth with at least some kind of support/base convos will help a lot. The one Important thing I think needs improvement is the map objectives. In the original Gaiden, The main map objective was rout, while in Shadow Dragon it was always Seize(haven't played long time so correct if I'm wrong). Since conquest got praised from it's diverse Map objectives, I think IS is taking this into account while making the remake.

[The Malign Knight]

7 minutes ago, Nobody said:

whatever it is, i hope they don't do it

love Shadow Dragon

Same tbh

Anyway, I just want to have characters with more personality and a better told-story. More World-Building wouldn't hurt either imho

[maybe]

i fucking love shadow dragon and i have no problem with it being "shadow dragon 2.0"

and from what we've seen it looks like it is, possibly to an even greater length since the weapon triangle is gone

they're adding voice acting and animated cutscenes so so far the changes we've seen have all been on the presentation side of things

the only real things I want them to do are have more variety in the maps (gaiden reused a lot and had a few pretty boring ones) and balance the units better since it was hard to make them good in the original. i would genuinely be fine with them adding nothing more than that

it'd be great to see new conversations and stuff but I don't feel it's entirely necessary

Edited January 22, 2017 by unique

[Masked And Dangerous]

Support convos and updated maps.

Literally all I need

[sirmola]

Honestly, half of SD's problem was the gaiden access method and normal only prolog. The other half of the problem is lack of characterization for most of the supporting cast. The first of these is easy to fix. THe second can be harder (especially if the characterization being interesting is added as a requirement), but is still reletively easy to fix. Keep in mind that new mystery fixed both of those mistakes, so it is unlikely that they will be made again. Honestly, SD is simple in a fun way. It's great for a replay when you don't want to have to deal with complexity For example, the standard FE bs of hidden items in the desert map is absent here. THis is in contrast to RD which sticks them everywhere without warning. Realizing i had missed the brave bow is what ended my sole RD playthrough. And don't even get me started on biorhythms.

[Dinar87]

It's kind of surprising so many people like shadow dragon since I thought it was particularly hated by most fans. Not to mention the lack of supports, gaiden chapter requirements and a bare bones story all stopped me from ever completing shadow dragon. Thankfully new mystery seems to fix most of these issues but since that requires emulation to play in english I haven't gotten around to playing it.

But again, how did any of you even like shadow dragon at all as I found it to be the worst fire emblem game by far...

Not only that but while shadow dragon may of outsold the tellius series, it still sold poorly enough to convince nintendo not to localize it's sequel new mystery of the emblem. That's what I meant by me calling it a sales disaster which it was (just not as bad as tellius). If it was bad enough for nintendo to not give us the sequel overseas then that's pretty fucking atrocious by my standards.

Edited January 22, 2017 by Dinar87

[sirmola]

8 minutes ago, Dinar87 said:

It's kind of surprising so many people like shadow dragon since I thought it was particularly hated by most fans. Not to mention the lack of supports, gaiden chapter requirements and a bare bones story all stopped me from ever completing shadow dragon. Thankfully new mystery seems to fix most of these issues.

Honestly, I think that part of that is a reletively small number of vocal people who love telious and hate SD, along with the fact that, although more people LIKE SD, relatively few people LOVE it.

It is also worth noting that fe1's maps did not have the same "lots of repetition and empty space" problem that gaiden's have, so SD could get away with copying maps, which echoes will NOT be able to if it wants to be good.

Edited January 22, 2017 by sirmola

[Radiant Dragon]

9 minutes ago, Dinar87 said:

Not only that but while shadow dragon may of outsold the tellius series, it still sold poorly enough to convince nintendo not to localize it's sequel new mystery of the emblem. That's what I meant by me calling it a sales disaster which it was (just not as bad as tellius). If it was bad enough for nintendo to not give us the sequel overseas then that's pretty fucking atrocious by my standards.

While I'm not a huge fan of Shadow Dragon either, it's important to realize that there were many factors that I'm sure went into the decision not to localize New Mystery, of which Shadow Dragon's sales were probably only a small portion of that. For example, the game was released in Japan only about six months before the 3DS launched, and most of Nintendo's focus moved onto their new system.

[Flee Fleet!]

I don't like Shadow Dragon. But New Mystery of the Emblem is my jam.

 

Anyways, Gaiden was already quite different to almost all FE games, but for Echoes to not become Shadow Dragon 2.0:

It needs supports for character development. But I'll be honest, limited supports are better, since I think of them as a challenge as to who to pair up with who. Also, I hope it doesn't go into marriage, kids, waifu and husbando terrority e.t.c all that stuff territory. 

If they're going to put "Gaiden" (heh) chapters, as in, sidequests, don't let it like in SD. It was horrible there, and the units you gained in these chapters weren't much help either. So yes, these kind of chapters should give cool recruits, if possible. Also, considering Gaiden has RPG elements, don't make all sidequests fetch quests.

 

And here's some stuff that doesn't make Echoes a horrible waste of time:

Actual axe units please. Or at least have the villagers become a Fighter or something. Or have a certain wield axes, like Wyvern Knights I guess.

Every character from Gaiden should be there. Like, all of them. No exceptions. New added characters would be nice, but I hope it's not too many. Otherwise you have a bloated cast with the original and new characters.

All the characters should retain their original personalities. Especially Alm. 

The dungeon crawling shouldn't be tedious, and should not be filled with a lot of enemies. Unless the enemies are actually difficult.

I heard the maps were not too good in Gaiden, so this game should redesign them, or completely change them into a new one.

And considering recruitment...hmm, well, I guess it's fine that they don't take place in a battle, but I dunno. I think it's fine as it is.

 

 

 

 

[Dinar87]

1 minute ago, Flee Fleet! said:

I don't like Shadow Dragon. But New Mystery of the Emblem is my jam.

 

Anyways, Gaiden was already quite different to almost all FE games, but for Echoes to not become Shadow Dragon 2.0:

It needs supports for character development. But I'll be honest, limited supports are better, since I think of them as a challenge as to who to pair up with who. Also, I hope it doesn't go into marriage, kids, waifu and husbando terrority e.t.c all that stuff territory. 

If they're going to put "Gaiden" (heh) chapters, as in, sidequests, don't let it like in SD. It was horrible there, and the units you gained in these chapters weren't much help either. So yes, these kind of chapters should give cool recruits, if possible. Also, considering Gaiden has RPG elements, don't make all sidequests fetch quests.

 

And here's some stuff that doesn't make Echoes a horrible waste of time:

Actual axe units please. Or at least have the villagers become a Fighter or something. Or have a certain wield axes, like Wyvern Knights I guess.

Every character from Gaiden should be there. Like, all of them. No exceptions. New added characters would be nice, but I hope it's not too many. Otherwise you have a bloated cast with the original and new characters.

All the characters should retain their original personalities. Especially Alm. 

The dungeon crawling shouldn't be tedious, and should not be filled with a lot of enemies. Unless the enemies are actually difficult.

I heard the maps were not too good in Gaiden, so this game should redesign them, or completely change them into a new one.

And considering recruitment...hmm, well, I guess it's fine that they don't take place in a battle, but I dunno. I think it's fine as it is.

 

 

 

 

That's the thing I'm worried about...I'm worried they'll pull a shadow dragon and be too faithful to the original (so no supports, no axe users, no map changes, etc...). While hard core veterans will appreciate the faithfulness of the remake I doubt many newer players will feel the same way. I can only hope IS finds a nice compromise between giving both veterans and newer fans what they want. If they go one way 100% then I don't think the game will sell that well since imo fire emblem needs both the newer and older players to survive. Focusing on only one seems very risky on their part and I can only hope it pays off for them. In truth, while I can't stand shadow dragon, I'd still love for IS to be somewhat faithful in regards to third tiers, extremely powerful bow users, light magic, etc... but also having supports, better map designs and a more meaty story.  

[maybe]

48 minutes ago, Flee Fleet! said:

Actual axe units please. Or at least have the villagers become a Fighter or something. Or have a certain wield axes, like Wyvern Knights I guess.

what's wrong with not having axe units? the game wasn't designed with them in mind so I don't see any reason to add them

[Azz]

4 minutes ago, unique said:

what's wrong with not having axe units? the game wasn't designed with them in mind so I don't see any reason to add them

This. And if the weapon triangle is being excluded like it seems to be, there is literally no point to axes.

[eclipse]

1 hour ago, Dinar87 said:

It's kind of surprising so many people like shadow dragon since I thought it was particularly hated by most fans. Not to mention the lack of supports, gaiden chapter requirements and a bare bones story all stopped me from ever completing shadow dragon. Thankfully new mystery seems to fix most of these issues but since that requires emulation to play in english I haven't gotten around to playing it.

But again, how did any of you even like shadow dragon at all as I found it to be the worst fire emblem game by far...

Not only that but while shadow dragon may of outsold the tellius series, it still sold poorly enough to convince nintendo not to localize it's sequel new mystery of the emblem. That's what I meant by me calling it a sales disaster which it was (just not as bad as tellius). If it was bad enough for nintendo to not give us the sequel overseas then that's pretty fucking atrocious by my standards.

AHEM!  SOME of us like all the "flaws" you pointed out.  In other words, if you're going to complain about a game, complete with putting it down in your topic title, please check to see whether or not the most active mod on the site has it listed as her favorite.  Or, just get it through your head that everyone has different tastes, and someone out there will like things that are different than you, and that IT IS OKAY.

As for the topic title, it's already on track to be something good.  Animated cutscenes tell me that they're giving a flip about the story.  Don't really care about supports, since I think that's the thing that should be cut.

[Tryhard]

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Its quite simple. They just need to give every character a bit of personality and give the story a bit more meat. 

And better map design, because even FE1 wasn't as bad as FE2's. The one they showed in the trailer for Alm isn't a bad one, but I'm really hoping they don't just copy the big square maps with tile spam and nothing interesting about them... Those are the big three changes and then anything else will be taken as is, IMO.

1 minute ago, eclipse said:

As for the topic title, it's already on track to be something good.  Animated cutscenes tell me that they're giving a flip about the story.  Don't really care about supports, since I think that's the thing that should be cut.

Huh. Any reason why? I do hope they do stay traditional with FE2 but at the same time I don't think supports could do any harm considering the almost nonexistent characterisation.

[HK Motendra]

10 minutes ago, unique said:

what's wrong with not having axe units? the game wasn't designed with them in mind so I don't see any reason to add them

Along with this, do keep in mind that myrmidons weren't a thing until maybe FE4 (apparently, Gaiden had "swordfighters" but idk if that equates). While there were only two in FE11 (w/out reclassing into it) adding a class shouldn't be too much of a worry.

[eclipse]

4 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

Huh. Any reason why? I do hope they do stay traditional with FE2 but at the same time I don't think supports could do any harm considering the almost nonexistent characterisation.

So the fandom will stop talking about stupid things like "I don't like this character because I didn't read every support and try to string together what happened", which is a lot more prevalent than I care to admit.  This happened in Awakening, and it got worse with Fates.

[SullyMcGully]

I feel like Gaiden itself is an unfinished work. It just feels like there was so much more that could have been put into it that was left out in the end. NOT because Kaga decided, "hey, let's make this game bland and unpolished and only give two characters real developement", but because the NES was a weak system that couldn't handle everything that the development team wanted to give it. That said, I don't think IS should make this game as if it had all the limitations Gaiden had, but try to expand it to include everything that might have been left out in the original. And that includes axes. Because axes are awesome.