What is your unpopular Fire Emblem opinion?

[NaotoUzumaki]

I agree completely even though Awakening was my first one I came for a SRPG not a Persona game I knew The game and its school system were not gonna help this isn’t Persona where during daylight your a regular teenager and by night a demon slayer. Good the grind through garrec mach is dog shit in Fates I use 50 gold here you instant battle and it doesn’t cost activity points and isn’t a chore to sit through.  Byleth as a teacher is BS he/she is a merc a battlefield teacher not a academy so let’s be real Rhea/Seiros needed mommy Sothis to keep walking the earth 

[Jotari]

3 hours ago, NaotoUzumaki said:

I agree completely even though Awakening was my first one I came for a SRPG not a Persona game I knew The game and its school system were not gonna help this isn’t Persona where during daylight your a regular teenager and by night a demon slayer. Good the grind through garrec mach is dog shit in Fates I use 50 gold here you instant battle and it doesn’t cost activity points and isn’t a chore to sit through.  Byleth as a teacher is BS he/she is a merc a battlefield teacher not a academy so let’s be real Rhea/Seiros needed mommy Sothis to keep walking the earth 

You know for this reason I really wish Byleth had a better magic pool. He's meant to be able to teach the likes of Hubert and Linehardt magic yet just because of innate spell pools he will never be a better magic unit than natural mages no matter how much you invest. It's all the more galling that is prf class can use and even has accelerated growth in Faith magic.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Jotari

[Alastor15243]

58 minutes ago, Jotari said:

You know for this reason I really wish Byleth had a better magic pool. He's meant to be able to teach the likes of Hubert and Linehardt magic yet just because of innate spell pools he will never be a better magic unit than natural mages no matter how much you invest. It's all the more galling that is prf class can use and even has accelerated growth in Faith magic.

I mean just the fact that he can teach the students stuff he blatantly does not have clue one about is alarming.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, Alastor15243 said:

I mean just the fact that he can teach the students stuff he blatantly does not have clue one about is alarming.

Yeah, if there was an attempt to inject some realism into it then Byleth would never be able to provide any experience in weapon ranks higher than his own current level. But locking all progress to the rate of the main character, even if said main character is really good, would be a pretty ridiculous way of pacing the game. Especially since there's like ten different weapon rank categories and you're only going to be able to focus on two or three of them with Byleth without new game+, which would mean your entire army would only be able to focus on whatever Byleth is focusing on. It makes a bit more sense post time skip when it's less a class and more a group study session and you can have other characters teach Byleth in categories where they're more experienced. I suppose if they gave Byleth have A Rank in all categories by default at the start of the game it'd make some sense, but then you're dealing with even massive steam rolling than there is already with Byleth.

[Icelerate]

1 hour ago, Alastor15243 said:

I mean just the fact that he can teach the students stuff he blatantly does not have clue one about is alarming.

Didnt Shannam do the same thing?

[Alastor15243]

13 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Didnt Shannam do the same thing?

By complete accident, as a joke, in a way that was meant to imply that Mareeta is some kind of martial genius, but yeah.

[Jotari]

27 minutes ago, Icelerate said:

Didnt Shannam do the same thing?

If Shannam was the main lord of our game brazenly pretending to be Jearlt's son then I wouldn't be complaining XD

[Etrurian emperor]

7 hours ago, zuibangde said:

People give a lot of crap for Fates and its bad villains but I think TWSITD is way more absurd.

On their own the Slitherers are just as bad as team Garon. They are also characterized solely by being really evil, they are also incompetent and they are also really boring. But there's an important difference. 

Team Garon is the only antagonistic force Fates has and as such they drag the entire story down with them. But there is an alternative to the Slitherers in the form of Edelgard. Her having her own motives and ideals allows an actually interesting conflict to take place. And unlike Nohr the story never requires you to side with the Slitherers, it never has good people insisting the crazy mole people are actually noble and so no character is dragged down by association. The Slithers are terrible but they don't destroy the entire narrative like Garon does. 

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Etrurian emperor said:

On their own the Slitherers are just as bad as team Garon. They are also characterized solely by being really evil, they are also incompetent and they are also really boring. But there's an important difference. 

Team Garon is the only antagonistic force Fates has and as such they drag the entire story down with them. But there is an alternative to the Slitherers in the form of Edelgard. Her having her own motives and ideals allows an actually interesting conflict to take place. And unlike Nohr the story never requires you to side with the Slitherers, it never has good people insisting the crazy mole people are actually noble and so no character is dragged down by association. The Slithers are terrible but they don't destroy the entire narrative like Garon does. 

Putting aside the obvious Anankos, you make Kotaro cry.

[Gregster101]

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

On their own the Slitherers are just as bad as team Garon. They are also characterized solely by being really evil, they are also incompetent and they are also really boring. But there's an important difference. 

Team Garon is the only antagonistic force Fates has and as such they drag the entire story down with them. But there is an alternative to the Slitherers in the form of Edelgard. Her having her own motives and ideals allows an actually interesting conflict to take place. And unlike Nohr the story never requires you to side with the Slitherers, it never has good people insisting the crazy mole people are actually noble and so no character is dragged down by association. The Slithers are terrible but they don't destroy the entire narrative like Garon does. 

THIS, EXACTLY THIS! Like, as terrible as the Slitherers are, Team Garon is just way worse considering they do way more damage to Fates' story than the Slitherers do to 3H's story

[Ottservia]

2 hours ago, Etrurian emperor said:

On their own the Slitherers are just as bad as team Garon. They are also characterized solely by being really evil, they are also incompetent and they are also really boring. But there's an important difference. 

Team Garon is the only antagonistic force Fates has and as such they drag the entire story down with them. But there is an alternative to the Slitherers in the form of Edelgard. Her having her own motives and ideals allows an actually interesting conflict to take place. And unlike Nohr the story never requires you to side with the Slitherers, it never has good people insisting the crazy mole people are actually noble and so no character is dragged down by association. The Slithers are terrible but they don't destroy the entire narrative like Garon does. 

I would disagree with this for multiple reasons. 
 

1. besides Garon we still have the royal siblings which act as pretty good antagonistic forces in their respective routes. Okay well the Nohr siblings are much better antagonists than the hoshidian ones anyway.

2. There’s nothing wrong with supposedly “good” characters siding with obviously evil characters. If you’re referring to Xander and the other Nohrian siblings here let me just correct you in saying that is the point. They are all fully aware that Garon is an evil piece of shit but they follow him anyway simply out of fear and obligation due to blood relation. It makes enough sense when you consider those factors. Frustrating as it may be it’s not inconsistent or poor writing. The whole point of CQ in general is get everyone to stop lying to themselves and accept and do something about Garon being an evil piece of shit which they do by the end of the story. CQ definitely has its problems(namely chapter 15) but the Nohrian siblings sticking to Garon like glue is not one of them.

11 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

THIS, EXACTLY THIS! Like, as terrible as the Slitherers are, Team Garon is just way worse considering they do way more damage to Fates' story than the Slitherers do to 3H's story

Personally speaking(and I don’t speak for everyone on this) I would rather a a story try something with its villains and fail to execute on them than try nothing at all which is why I personally consider the agarthans worse in that regard but again that’s just me

[Gregster101]

3 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

I would disagree with this for multiple reasons. 
 

1. besides Garon we still have the royal siblings which act as pretty good antagonistic forces in their respective routes. Okay well the Nohr siblings are much better antagonists than the hoshidian ones anyway.

2. There’s nothing wrong with supposedly “good” characters siding with obviously evil characters. If you’re referring to Xander and the other Nohrian siblings here let me just correct you in saying that is the point. They are all fully aware that Garon is an evil piece of shit but they follow him anyway simply out of fear and obligation due to blood relation. It makes enough sense when you consider those factors. Frustrating as it may be it’s not inconsistent or poor writing. The whole point of CQ in general is get everyone to stop lying to themselves and accept and do something about Garon being an evil piece of shit which they do by the end of the story. CQ definitely has its problems(namely chapter 15) but the Nohrian siblings sticking to Garon like glue is not one of them.

Personally speaking(and I don’t speak for everyone on this) I would rather a a story try something with its villains and fail to execute on them than try nothing at all which is why I personally consider the agarthans worse in that regard but again that’s just me

You are never gonna convince me that there is a group of villains that is worse than the Garon squad, cuz Garon is one of the main reasons Fates has such an awful story, whereas Three Houses at least has Edelgard and Rhea to fall back on in spite of also having crappy villains like the Slitherers.

Also, having to rely on the royal siblings to make up for the garbage villains is a very flawed approach, and it's one that even Three Houses suffer from. It's used better in Three Houses than in Fates cuz I do find the conflict between the three houses more convincing than that of the feuding families, but it's still a very crappy way of handling villains.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Gregster101

[Etrurian emperor]

26 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

1. besides Garon we still have the royal siblings which act as pretty good antagonistic forces in their respective routes. Okay well the Nohr siblings are much better antagonists than the hoshidian ones anyway.

But the conflict between these two royal families and of the two countries in general only exist because Garon happens to be really evil. The Nohrian aren't antagonists in their own right but merely officers in Garon's openly psychotic army. Xander, Camilla, Leo and Elise fight Hoshido only because Garon orders them to do so. And on the other side the only reasons the Hoshidans are hostile to Nohr is because Garon insists they have a giant war. 

29 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

There’s nothing wrong with supposedly “good” characters siding with obviously evil characters. If you’re referring to Xander and the other Nohrian siblings here let me just correct you in saying that is the point. They are all fully aware that Garon is an evil piece of shit but they follow him anyway simply out of fear and obligation due to blood relation. It makes enough sense when you consider those factors. Frustrating as it may be it’s not inconsistent or poor writing

For Leo and Camilla that's acceptable enough because they are trapped in an abusive relation and aware of it. But Xander is different. He actually has faith in Garon. And for someone who's supposed to be such a moral paragon that's not a good look. He's not even too conflicted about it as despite his misgivings he's still very sure that daddy is just under the weather. And in Conquest he turns on Garon not because he's a sociopath but because he turns out not to be Garon after all. 

[Jotari]

I'd lean on the side that the Agarthans do more damage to the plot than the Garon Gang. Iago and Hans might lack much charisma but they do drive the plot in a rather simple way by being the antagonistic force. The Agarthans on the other hand make pretty much everything they touch worse. Especially Edelgard. They are cooler and the implications they have for lore and stuff is really interesting, but all their active contributions to the plot serve to convolute and contradict the story. 

[Etrurian emperor]

5 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I'd lean on the side that the Agarthans do more damage to the plot than the Garon Gang. Iago and Hans might lack much charisma but they do drive the plot in a rather simple way by being the antagonistic force. The Agarthans on the other hand make pretty much everything they touch worse. Especially Edelgard. They are cooler and the implications they have for lore and stuff is really interesting, but all their active contributions to the plot serve to convolute and contradict the story. 

Edelgard and her ideals are interesting enough to stand on her own. I guess that can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your line of thinking. 

The Slitherers weren't needed yet are still present and due to them being terrible its easy to say the story would be better without them.

However Edelgard is also an alternative to them. Regardless of how terrible they are Edelgard is enough to ensure for an interesting conflict. Meanwhile team Garon is the only sort of conflict and there's no alternative that makes up for them being terrible. You could argue Anankos but he's terrible too and I'd say he counts as a member of team Garon due to being the puppeteer. 

[Ottservia]

16 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

For Leo and Camilla that's acceptable enough because they are trapped in an abusive relation and aware of it. But Xander is different. He actually has faith in Garon. And for someone who's supposed to be such a moral paragon that's not a good look. He's not even too conflicted about it as despite his misgivings he's still very sure that daddy is just under the weather. And in Conquest he turns on Garon not because he's a sociopath but because he turns out not to be Garon after all. 

Um that’s the point though. The thing about Xander is that he’s in denial and he’s also a hypocrite. He is aware that his father is not a good person but he makes excuses for it because he doesn’t want to admit it. The thing that lends the most credence to this is that whenever someone calls him out on it he uncharacteristically lashes out at them(see birthright chapters 6 and 26). Even so his big speech to goo garon at the end of conquest is all about him finally realizing he needs to stop lying to himself and realize that thing is not his father and never has been. He knew from the beginning that Goo garon was not his father but he denied it simply because he couldn’t accept it. He decieved himself into thinking that was his father but it wasn’t and he needs wake up and realize that.

 

24 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

But the conflict between these two royal families and of the two countries in general only exist because Garon happens to be really evil. The Nohrian aren't antagonists in their own right but merely officers in Garon's openly psychotic army. Xander, Camilla, Leo and Elise fight Hoshido only because Garon orders them to do so. And on the other side the only reasons the Hoshidans are hostile to Nohr is because Garon insists they have a giant war. 

Again that’s the point tho

[Jotari]

11 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Edelgard and her ideals are interesting enough to stand on her own. I guess that can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your line of thinking. 

The Slitherers weren't needed yet are still present and due to them being terrible its easy to say the story would be better without them.

 

Which doesn't actually lead to any contradiction. It is reasonable to believe Three Houses is a better story than Fates, but the Garon Gang are better villains than the Agarthans.

11 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

However Edelgard is also an alternative to them. Regardless of how terrible they are Edelgard is enough to ensure for an interesting conflict. Meanwhile team Garon is the only sort of conflict and there's no alternative that makes up for them being terrible. You could argue Anankos but he's terrible too and I'd say he counts as a member of team Garon due to being the puppeteer. 

Well by the same logic you can say Edelgard is part of the Agarthans since they're puppeterring her, even if she plans to betray them. I think the game makes a pretty clear distinction between Garon's group of villains and Anankos, what with it being an entirely different Kingdom and getting an entirely different branch of the game dedicated to fighting them (a branch where you don't even fight Garon, for some reason).

 

Edited July 20, 2020 by Jotari

[Etrurian emperor]

2 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Well by the same logic you can say Edelgard is part of the Agarthans since they're puppeterring her, even if she plans to betray them. I think the game makes a pretty clear distinction between Garon's group of villains and Anankos, what with it being an entirely different Kingdom and getting an entirely different branch of the game dedicated to fighting them (a branch where you don't even fight Garon, for some reason).

 

I don't think they are pupeteering her. Gooron is a minion who controls Nohr for Anankos benefit. Edelgard controls Adrestia for her own ideals. She is a separate faction in every sense of the word. At best they have an alliance with both sides being crystal clear it won't last. 

 

[Jotari]

Just now, Etrurian emperor said:

I don't think they are pupeteering her. Gooron is a minion who controls Nohr for Anankos benefit. Edelgard controls Adrestia for her own ideals. She is a separate faction in every sense of the word. At best they have an alliance with both sides being crystal clear it won't last. 

 

An alliance forged by the Agarthans who have manufactured her life to turn her into a Rhea killing machine.

[Etrurian emperor]

40 minutes ago, Ottservia said:

Um that’s the point though. The thing about Xander is that he’s in denial and he’s also a hypocrite. He is aware that his father is not a good person but he makes excuses for it because he doesn’t want to admit it. The thing that lends the most credence to this is that whenever someone calls him out on it he uncharacteristically lashes out at them(see birthright chapters 6 and 26). Even so his big speech to goo garon at the end of conquest is all about him finally realizing he needs to stop lying to himself and realize that thing is not his father and never has been. He knew from the beginning that Goo garon was not his father but he denied it simply because he couldn’t accept it. He decieved himself into thinking that was his father but it wasn’t and he needs wake up and realize that.

Firstly I don't think something being the point is enough to make it good. With Garon it could have been the point to make him as boring as possible but that doesn't prevent it from being a mistake that made Fates less interesting then it could have been. The weird hyperbolic time chamber for the second gen being bizare could very well have been the point but its still terrible. Bad ideas can just be bad which means that implementing those ideas as intended would naturally lead to a bad result. 

But I also don't agree with you on Xander. Its an interpretation but only that. And while its theoretically possible I do not think its likely. The disconect between the Camus being depicted as noble while willingly serving the worst people imaginable has always existed within Fire Emblem. I'd sooner search for Xander's flaws in that tradition then any thematic meaning behind Fates. The game itself spends far too little time condemning Xander for me to imagine that they wanted the player to think him as any less than a paragon of virtue. But being a paragon of virtue and being Garon's willing crony mutually exclude each other and the game has a very hard time recognizing that. Ultimately I think that is where the disconnect many players have with Xander comes from. 

I also don't think Gooron being so unbelievable evil was meant to fit with any thematic point. It was just the writing team being extremely lazy with their grand villain. Its theoretically possible that the team did put some thought in him but if so then they evidently failed to competently get that across. Your take on Xander might have worked if Garon actively encouraged his son to think there was still good left in him but he never even tries. 

24 minutes ago, Jotari said:

An alliance forged by the Agarthans who have manufactured her life to turn her into a Rhea killing machine.

They also seemed to have imagined Edelgard as being the creation that puts them back in power which evidently doesn't happen. Even if Edelgard gets rid of Rhea she very swiftly puts them in their place. Edelgard has far too much free reign to be a puppet. Whenever they talk she's very openly hostile towards them just as they are with her and she rarely if ever seems forced by the Slitherers to do something she never already planned on doing. Even the alliance herself was something she could have refused with apparently it being Hubert who helped her come to the conclusion that they should team up. Whenever Edelgard and Thales share a scene together it becomes apparent how little power they hold over her. 

 

Edited July 20, 2020 by Etrurian emperor

[Jotari]

7 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

 

They also seemed to have imagined Edelgard as being the creation that puts them back in power which evidently doesn't happen. Even if Edelgard gets rid of Rhea she very swiftly puts them in their place. Edelgard has far too much free reign to be a puppet. Whenever they talk she's very openly hostile towards them just as they are with her and she rarely if ever seems forced by the Slitherers to do something she never already planned on doing. Even the alliance herself was something she could have refused with apparently it being Hubert who helped her come to the conclusion that they should team up. Whenever Edelgard and Thales share a scene together it becomes apparent how little power they hold over her. 

 

She only actually betrays them in one of four routes though. And that's off screen, after the story is concluded. In all the other routes despite her own impressions and intentions, she is their puppet and she gets killed trying to further their goals (she doesn't even leak their location to Byleth, that's all Hubert because Edelgard is too arrogant to even consider the possibility of her own defeat). She does have more free reign that Garon who is a literal pile of slime, but I'm not exactly arguing that Edelgard and the Agrathans are one and the same faction, I'm arguing that Nohr and Valla are separate factions by highlighting the similarities between the two situations.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Jotari

[NaotoUzumaki]

Exactly Byleth is merc like Ike. Do you see Ike going into a class of brat saying pull your faith textbook at page 51 XD no. Its sad because Byleth is supposed to be a Mentor/Avatar and yet the dev think that mentor means academic teacher. Its supposed to guide other people in the right direction.

Edited July 20, 2020 by NaotoUzumaki
Misspelled

[Gregster101]

15 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

Firstly I don't think something being the point is enough to make it good. With Garon it could have been the point to make him as boring as possible but that doesn't prevent it from being a mistake that made Fates less interesting then it could have been. The weird hyperbolic time chamber for the second gen being bizare could very well have been the point but its still terrible. Bad ideas can just be bad which means that implementing those ideas as intended would naturally lead to a bad result. 

I very much agree with this. Just because Garon being so cartoonishly evil possibly that he makes everyone look like an idiot being the point doesn't make it not bad. It's still fucking bad.

And also, stop fucking acting like themes are the only way to judge if a story is good or not. It's not.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Gregster101

[Etrurian emperor]

12 minutes ago, Jotari said:

She only actually betrays them in one of four routes though. And that's off screen, after the story is concluded. In all the other routes despite her own impressions and intentions, she is their puppet and she gets killed trying to further their goals (she doesn't even leak their location to Byleth, that's all Hubert because Edelgard is too arrogant to even consider the possibility of her own defeat). She does have more free reign that Garon who is a literal pile of slime, but I'm not exactly arguing that Edelgard and the Agrathans are one and the same faction, I'm arguing that Nohr and Valla are separate factions by highlighting the similarities between the two situations.

That's because she only wins in one out of four routes. There's not much to suggest she would have acted any differently in the other routes. One could argue Byleth's influence is what causes her to turn on the Slitherers but considering she already speaks poorly of them before Byleth joins that's not likely. Given how she act it seems they were always destined to turn on each other. 

For someone to be a puppet I think one side either needs to have power over the other which is not the case, or manipulation to one sides detriment needs to be involved. On the later front its Edelgard who seems to be the one pulling the strings. She's the one who exterminates her partners and we have no reason to assume she wouldn't do that in any other routes if she won there. Even her own death is causes by Byleth and co. She doesn't die furthering the Aghartan goals but her own goals instead, goals that are pretty incompatible with the Aghartan's on any topic aside from the church needing to be toppled. 

I think Gooron is a much better example. Unlike Edelgard he really is a minion. Anankos doesn't control Nohr itself but by having a minion on the throne he might as well directly control it. Nohr is technically a different faction but its completely subservient to Anankos whether they know it or not. 

Edited July 20, 2020 by Etrurian emperor

[Jotari]

20 minutes ago, Etrurian emperor said:

That's because she only wins in one out of four routes. There's not much to suggest she would have acted any differently in the other routes. One could argue Byleth's influence is what causes her to turn on the Slitherers but considering she already speaks poorly of them before Byleth joins that's not likely. Given how she act it seems they were always destined to turn on each other. 

For someone to be a puppet I think one side either needs to have power over the other which is not the case, or manipulation to one sides detriment needs to be involved. On the later front its Edelgard who seems to be the one pulling the strings. She's the one who exterminates her partners and we have no reason to assume she wouldn't do that in any other routes if she won there. Even her own death is causes by Byleth and co. She doesn't die furthering the Aghartan goals but her own goals instead, goals that are pretty incompatible with the Aghartan's on any topic aside from the church needing to be toppled. 

I think Gooron is a much better example. Unlike Edelgard he really is a minion. Anankos doesn't control Nohr itself but by having a minion on the throne he might as well directly control it. Nohr is technically a different faction but its completely subservient to Anankos whether they know it or not. 

The fact that they don't know it is kind of relevant though. The soldiers of Nohr are fighting for Nohr, not Valla. Likewise the soldiers of Adrestia are fighting for Adrestia, not Agartha, even if their actions are indirectly furthering an attempted Agarthan restoration. Even if we just anaylze things from a point of Aesthetic Valla, Nohr, Adrestia and Agartha are clearly designed to be distinctly operating entities.