Antihero Anonydraft Mafia (Game Over)

[All Might]

Kratos do you have any thoughts on Titania's recent posts?

[Kamina]

6 minutes ago, Toshio Ozaki said:

Look at that scum overreaction. Looks like Shiki and mafia behave just as desperately under pressure. I'll have to remember that.

Just to be clear why is what Endeavor did scummy but what you did town?

My case on you is regardless of your reasoning it is your vote patterns don't try to misrep.

I have nothing to say about the two votes on Endeavor that I haven't commented on. They are fine. Just fine. Dunno why you're trying to accuse me of not participating considering I have commented on the two biggest wagons of the day.

You can always comment on your thoughts on Endeavor's vote if you like. 

To clarify what I didn't like about endeavor:

He left a vote from RVS on someone to make some random comment about numbers, meaning he was in the thread and was actually reading stuff but chose to not care enough to move his vote.  In my opinion at first glace that meant he felt his vote was fine staying on his RVS vote at that time which I didn't like.  He then moved it and asked why I felt like it should have been moved.

WRT I would say, it should have been moved unless he felt there was merit in him actually leaving his vote on someone at that point in time.

Thus this is why I voted endeavor and disliked his follow up post.  He hasn't since responded so I haven't moved my vote away from him.  I also feel like there is a need for me to state at this point in time of the game none of my reads are leaning either town or scum and I'm solely looking for reactions and information, thus why I was waiting for a response from endeavor.

I'll attempt to respond to your case in my next post.

You see the votes on endeavor as fine yet you don'y see endeavor as scummy and I dislike that.  No matter what you are reading Endeavor as if you feel the cases/votes on him overall aren't that strong or you feel that overall he isn't scum then that would mean to me that the votes on him should be weak in your opinion, not "Fine. Just fine."  For what it matters I never accused you of not participating. so just as you said, don't misrep.

[Kamina]

Wasn't Titania's recent post commenting on the mayor claim?  In which case I don't know how I'm supposed to respond to that.

Also responding to your previous case in a bit more detail so gimme a sec.

[Shiki Ryougi]

How are there already 5 pages? I'm not that late, am I?

[Violet Evergarden]

Suit yourself, Kratos.

I'm not being overly critical of Kokichi by calling his logic bad. That's ridiculous. I cited the amount of non-posters because it was why I had no reads I considered meaningful.

45 minutes ago, Mello said:

There's no reason to townread/scumread people based on their role in this game.  Since the alignments are determined before the roles are picked, scum can just as easily pick townie roles as safeclaims, and town can pick scum roles to deny scum any sort of worthwhile power.

Duh.

45 minutes ago, Mello said:

The Kratos case is way too graspy and takes his actions out of context.  Titania never voted Kratos, so why do you think his vote is a reaction to being voted? He clearly had a problem with the Kokichi wagon, so its reasonable from a town perspective to vote one of the people on the wagon

Kokichi voted Kratos. This was already pointed out by Kratos.

45 minutes ago, Mello said:

Furthermore, you're nitpicking his case on Endeavor. Where is the scum intent here? It seems like you have a problem with him not voting Endeavor earlier, but then, why is the Titania a vote a worse vote at that point in time?

The Titania vote isn't a worse vote. My suspicion was that Kratos thought he couldn't keep voting her, so he agreed with Rick to make a placeholder vote on Endeavor - something that was strange because the problem with Endeavor's post was so clearly obvious that Kratos would have certainly

I read your post. Three swings, two misses. I'm wary of any player who posts easy "pro-town" fluff and lacks the vigilance to read the full context of case of the player they find suspicious. But before I get to you, Mello, I intend to cleanse the following unholy stain from the game:

##Unvote
##Vote: Titania Andersen

Titania votes Kokichi, but she has more reason to vote me or Komaeda here and hasn't responded to a single Kokichi post since voting him. There's no conviction to catch scum here. Also, I'm not "throwing shade" on Kokichi or waffling on him when I say I don't find him scummy anyway - a statement she had already acknowledged. Seems the one throwing shade here is you.

I don't like Rick's Kokichi push. It looks like RVS holdover. Sure not leaving much of an impression for such an insufferable character, despite the high post count.

Endeavor's sole post is okay for this stage of this game, but just that. Could stand to see another one.

[Refakitty³]

@Rick Can you summarize your Kokichi case for me? The only thing I'm getting out of the thread so far is that you didn't like the self-vote, what am I missing?

Faye and Nagito might be scum because their votes are pretty sketchy. Kokichi's right about Faye- she has a lot more to say about Nagito but votes Endeavor instead. Also I don't like how she's trying to justify the earlygame wagon as necessary to get reactions, that's almost encouraging vote piling there. If I had a second vote, it would be here.

Nagito's votes are weird because it looks like he voted Kokichi since he disagreed with his reasoning behind the whole counting semantics. There was a much better case on Endeavor and its kinda shifty that the claim makes him switch votes, you'd think that he'd vote with better reasons, right? But I'm unsure about this being scum play vs bad town play because of his rolespec post in the last page, that feels weird coming from scum.

[Olivier]

I see that you too are a man of Hope.  Splendid!  With someone of your talents on our side, that'll make catching scum much easier.

But I have a small confession to make.  After thinking my cases over more, my issues w/Mello (dissuading people from making reads based on roles, dissuading people from changing their minds on Kokichi, and dismissing Endeavor for a weak reason) bother me a lot more than my issues with Endeavor (dismissive Kokichi read and a bad case on Batter).  Moreso than that, though, there's just something about their posts that rubs me the wrong way.  Call it a gut read, if you will.  I'd appreciate it if other people could comment on my case as well.  Surely people of your talent will be able to read Mello better than I ever could!

##Unvote

##Vote: Mello

[Kamina]

32 minutes ago, Toshio Ozaki said:

I'll make sure this village isn't destroyed by the darkness within like my last one. I'll do whatever it takes to get my hands dirty.

So Titania was doing the thing that you thought scum would be doing but then you unvote them?

##Vote: Mercenary Kratos

I think that disliking self votes isn't scummy (but neither is self-voting) but don't think this is very likely to come from town trying to catch scum. Complaining that Endeavor wasn't moving his vote around to pressure people is dumb when:

a) its RVS so wagoning people and letting wagons happen is fine, and

b) Kratos themselves didn't initially react and form a conclusive opinion on the wagon voters until a little time later, so Endeavor coming in and not jumping to a conclusion should not be treated with such disdain from Kratos.

Kratos then doesn't move their vote after Endeavor's follow up while not really discussing their overall satisfaction with Endeavor's choice of movement. I don't feel like Kratos particularly cares about who they are voting. This "Batter" explained it quite well too so I'm glad to see a town willing to save itself for a change.

Speaking of, I don't really see anything particularly scummy about Endeavor, while I have had bad encounters with fire in the past a superhero is exactly what this village needs. I hardly think criticising people's tones in RVS counts as scummy play that tries to hinder discussion. An extraordinarily weak vote here from a woman that is supposed to carry us. I'm not a fan of foolish women.

 

WRT first bolded part, Titania did something that I said scum could do, I never stated I felt they were scum.  In fact if you also read the post which I said scum could do that I also stated that I can understand the line of thought behind their RVS vote.  This is the start of your case and it's already pretty weak if you actually looked at my posts with regards to Titania.

I see zero scum play and zero town play about someone self voting in RVS. It's pointless to me and honestly means nothing to me. So at that point in time in the game if people are giving a SERIOUS reaction to an RVS self vote I find it off and weird and generally the people that I would think aim to try and abuse that fact are either lazy as fuck town or scum that want to fake content.  This was what began some of my annoyances and why I said I disliked the wagon. SO saying that:

a)Wagoning people and letting wagons happen is fine but that is generally done to attempt to find someone make a mistake or somehow start a conversation that aims for hunting scum.  So a wagon happening that in my eyes had poor reactions and bad choices for votes made me dislike it.  RVS doesn't just mean "Let's make random wagons and not give a fuck until something happens."  I saw something I disagreed with and disliked so I aimed to start questioning people on that wagon for some reactions.

b)I already responded to this part but - whether I have an initial reaction to a wagon or not should not change the fact that someone comes back to the thread, actively reads the 1 page of content, and then makes a post ignoring the 5 votes on the person they are currently voting.  At the very least it should either require an unvote or a reason as to why they are leaving their vote on said person.

I didn't move my vote off of endeavor because after they made a post I responded to it and I don't think I ever got a reply at that time.  When I am prodding someone and attempting to get better reads from them and to gauge reactions and they randomly bail I generally leave the vote on them until I have a better target for my vote.

You then comment about how you don't see anything really scummy about endeavor yet you think some of the votes on Endeavor are "Fine. Just fine."  This is poor play and questionable logic at best.  If you don't see anything scummy about them you should normally feel that their shouldn't really be votes on them and if their are votes on them then they shouldn't be fine, they should be poor in most situations.

So in total you are voting me because:

I unvoted Titania? And you felt I should have moved my vote off of Endeavor?

[Violet Evergarden]

5 minutes ago, The Batter said:

The Titania vote isn't a worse vote. My suspicion was that Kratos thought he couldn't keep voting her, so he agreed with Rick to make a placeholder vote on Endeavor - something that was strange because the problem with Endeavor's post was so clearly obvious that Kratos would have certainly

...pointed it out had he read that post and found Endeavor suspicious. Which he claims he hadn't, but I couldn't know that.

SF deleted my post so I had to retype parts of it again and I missed that.

[Olivier]

3 minutes ago, Mello said:

 

Nagito's votes are weird because it looks like he voted Kokichi since he disagreed with his reasoning behind the whole counting semantics. There was a much better case on Endeavor and its kinda shifty that the claim makes him switch votes, you'd think that he'd vote with better reasons, right? But I'm unsure about this being scum play vs bad town play because of his rolespec post in the last page, that feels weird coming from scum.

I'm sorry, but I already explained how my Kokichi vote was a lot better than my Endeavor vote at the time.  I don't mind being voted as long as it makes me a stepping stone for town, but you're going to need to have a better case if you want people to take this seriously.  You don't even seem to understand why exactly I voted Kokichi in the first place, which is troubling considering you claim that I could be scum.

[Sham]

25 minutes ago, Toshio Ozaki said:

Speaking of, I don't really see anything particularly scummy about Endeavor, while I have had bad encounters with fire in the past a superhero is exactly what this village needs. I hardly think criticising people's tones in RVS counts as scummy play that tries to hinder discussion. An extraordinarily weak vote here from a woman that is supposed to carry us. I'm not a fan of foolish women.

Who is this last paragraph referring to? Faye?

In any case. Originally, Kokichi being Mayor didn't mean much to me, since I had assumed Mayor wouldn't show up in votals. This would mean scum could quickhammer people secretly and sow mistrust if they picked Mayor, which makes it a good pick that will get mislynches and later sacrifice itself when it gets narrowed down. However, this doesn't work as well when it's public and quickly obvious who is the Mayor, so it would only get one mislynch and instantly reveal the Mayor as scum.

However, the Mayor claim gives an explanation for Kokichi's weird early actions other than lolcatting scum. It's annoying that that's all he's done but it's not quite as egregious as I originally thought.

Looking at other people, the way Kratos responded to Toshio's case is bad. He disappeared for two hours and only came back to defend himself when voted without any other content, and his Endeavor vote was a sheep on Rick's logic (note Rick himself didn't vote Endeavor). However, I think his latest defense is decent, so I don't know what else to think.

@The Batter At that point I thought that Kokichi was scum posting nonsense. I didn't (and don't) think that Nagito is scum, I was asking him that question to pick his brain. I did consider voting you but I wanted to keep up pressure on Kokichi and see what would happen, and if I voted you it would be for the same purpose--to make you post more. Although, to throw the "Why didn't you vote this other person" question back in your face, why did you vote me over Mello?

For what it's worth in general, I agree with the observation that Endeavor was reading the thread but choosing not to get involved.

Mello's first post is weak. Half of his Battler vote relies on a misunderstanding of Battler's post that was already cleared up (although not by Battler himself, but I still think it's a weak point)

[Sham]

9 minutes ago, The Batter said:

...pointed it out had he read that post and found Endeavor suspicious. Which he claims he hadn't, but I couldn't know that.

SF deleted my post so I had to retype parts of it again and I missed that.

Following up on this and the thought it was finishing, why do you think Kratos felt he couldn't keep voting me?

[Sham]

I forgot to move my vote

##Unvote, ##Vote: Mello

I don't have any strong or good scumreads right now, I just want people to talk.

[Cú Chulainn]

43 minutes ago, Nagito Komaeda said:

Due to my limited abilities, I'm afraid I can't perceive peoples' issues w/Faye Valentine cases.  Could someone explain this to me like I'm an idiot?  I'm asking about this slot specifically because I didn't get any intent at all from my initial read, which is a bit troubling from someone who is sharing a vote with me.  I'd really prefer not to be sharing a vote with despair, after all.

Okay, I'll put it in terms that even a simpleton like you can understand:
-Faye questions your reads like they're bad
-Faye never actually mentions a read on your slot, if anything they imply it's town despite that when you had two posts...? One post. Like I said earlier, isn't that weird?
-They vote Endie for... holding people accountable for their actions earlygame... despite saying that it's important to get reactions to earlygame posts. Does this make sense? Actually, no.

Actually, now that I put it that way, I'm not sure why I'm not already voting this slot. Haha!

##Unvote
##Vote: Faye Valentine

Congratulations Nagito! You've become the stepping stone you've always wanted to be. For what it's worth, I agree with you that picks will be alignment indicative. They're not an end all (if I was later in the draft I would've tried to become a town Ninja, because it sounds cool!) but I think disregarding them entirely is a mistake.

26 minutes ago, Mercenary Kratos said:

This way I can breathe air that hasn't been contaminated.

Don't worry, you'll be my favourite giraffe. I take good care all of all of my pets! And I'm pretty sure that my favourite giraffe is responding like a townie here. Shiki, where is the desperation you're seeing? Maybe they're just hungry, because I forgot to feed him today... my bad! But either way, they seem perfectly calm. I don't think they're lying, and I have plenty of experience with that! 

Hey, Batter, if that hat isn't covering your eyes, tell me what you think of Shiki. Quickly! And I want you expand on your Mello read, because while I didn't like their entrance but I think their more recent posts look more organic. And that isn't calling them a vegetable, either!

The Bitch, do you really think that I haven't done anything...? I'm trying my best here! *sniff*

[Olivier]

14 minutes ago, The Batter said:

##Unvote
##Vote: Titania Andersen

Titania votes Kokichi, but she has more reason to vote me or Komaeda here and hasn't responded to a single Kokichi post since voting him. There's no conviction to catch scum here. Also, I'm not "throwing shade" on Kokichi or waffling on him when I say I don't find him scummy anyway - a statement she had already acknowledged. Seems the one throwing shade here is you.

I don't like Rick's Kokichi push. It looks like RVS holdover. Sure not leaving much of an impression for such an insufferable character, despite the high post count.

Just what I'd expect for someone so dedicated to purifying the game of scum.  I agree that Titania had better reasons to vote for you than Kokichi, but stuck to her guns anyways.  I have to ask, though, why do you think she had better reasons to vote me?  Even someone as carefree as me would be frustrated if I got voted for my initial thoughts being related to the Kokichi wagon, seeing as that was the only thing of worth that had happened at the time.  When you say that there's no conviction to catch scum, are you referring to that specific post or just her posts overall?

I don't mind RVS holdovers, but I am curious to see what his thoughts are when he gets back.  Is he a warrior of hope?  Or despair?

 

[Violet Evergarden]

Your active lurking is scummier than one questionable post, Titania. Although after this you could just be town who doesn't know what a vote is.

3 minutes ago, Titania Andersen said:

Following up on this and the thought it was finishing, why do you think Kratos felt he couldn't keep voting me?

He said he could see your logic after you responded and let up. In hindsight it can also be read as he still suspected you but just found Endeavor worse. Whatever. I don't scumread Kratos right now anyway.

##Unvote
##Vote: Mello

The reads in his newer post are looking noncommital. May as well put him at mission priority #1.

[Kamina]

The amount of stuff that happened in the 2 hours I was gone practically amounted to a mayor claim.  Outside of that not much happened except for the fact that 2 people were voting me so I decided to counter the points and defend myself.  I guess I could have just said nothing if that was what you would have preferred?  Had I not defended myself there really wasn't too much that I felt demanded a response from me at that point in time.  Most of it was Nagito and Kokichi talking to each other and some other endeavor votes being dropped.

I like how you are actually forcing yourself to post.  You three posts in quick succession in which you stated you have no actual reads and just want people to talk yet imply at the same time you felt I shouldn't have responded to the votes on me when there wasn't too much, IN MY OPINION, that was great to respond to.  That slightly frustrates me and I'm sure I'm mis-reading your or misunderstanding you because otherwise it looks like you want me to do the impossible.  So if you could clarify a bit that would be appreciative.

[Olivier]

6 minutes ago, Kokichi Ouma said:

Okay, I'll put it in terms that even a simpleton like you can understand:
-Faye questions your reads like they're bad
-Faye never actually mentions a read on your slot, if anything they imply it's town despite that when you had two posts...? One post. Like I said earlier, isn't that weird?
-They vote Endie for... holding people accountable for their actions earlygame... despite saying that it's important to get reactions to earlygame posts. Does this make sense? Actually, no.

Actually, now that I put it that way, I'm not sure why I'm not already voting this slot. Haha!

##Unvote
##Vote: Faye Valentine

Now I understand things perfectly.  An implied townread based on one post is weird enough, but it's especially nonsensical if Faye didn't even agree with my reads in the first place!  The reasoning for voting Endeavor is suspect as well, but I'd like some responses from the ultimate bounty hunter before coming to a conclusion on that front.

[Violet Evergarden]

I don't know who "Shiki" is.

Mello's recent posts are more inconclusive than organic. They're not productive towards purifying this world.

Komaeda, I thought Titania had no conviction to catch scum because she left her vote down on a very early and weak case despite talking about other people. After her new post where she "forgot to change her vote" I'm thinking I jumped the gun on that and she's just foolish. Titania, use your vote better.

Titania had more reason to vote you because she was pressing you on something post-RVS whereas the Kokichi vote was absolute nothing.

[All Might]

Hmm I wouldn't say that I'm suspicious of voting you simply because of your voting process. That was what was most prominent in my mind at the time but your reasoning is pretty key to that.

This is you before:

Quote

Or do you have anything to say about anything else that has happened so far, I know not too much has happened but there has been enough to spark some sort of conversation or thought process as has been proven by the fact that people are doing those things.

This is definitely implying that I have not commented enough or "sparked some sort of thought process/conversation.

I meant more than just that one Titania post, come on now. The batter has put more effort into scum hunting Titania than you and you were suspicious of Titania first. <- this is what I mean by you not putting any thought into your vote. You don't seem to follow anything up in the way that I would expect. You claimed that your page 3 response to Endeavor is part of your case but I don't really think you explained why Endeavor's vote switch was scummy. You haven't seemed interested in following up on Titania's posts to see if they were actually scum doing the thing that you mentioned.

Quote

WRT first bolded part, Titania did something that I said scum could do, I never stated I felt they were scum.  In fact if you also read the post which I said scum could do that I also stated that I can understand the line of thought behind their RVS vote.  This is the start of your case and it's already pretty weak if you actually looked at my posts with regards to Titania.

Nice one, except I quoted the bit about you saying you understand his line of thinking so its obvious I took that into consideration.. My problem is that you voted them originally anyway, knowing that that response was likely to follow. You voted someone, claiming they were doing exactly the thing you were paranoid that scum would do but saying you could understand the thought process anyway. Do you think scum are more likely to use that excuse than town but it can come from town or that really Titania's vote was always going to be null as it could come from both? If it's the latter why even bother voting, just to participate in the wagon discussion?

a) Actually, yeah it kinda does. You vote people, make stuff happen and see their reactions. Look at how Endeavor unvoted after Kokichi responded. WOW. A response to the reaction to the wagon. It wasn't a great wagon analysis to be fair to you, the best they could come up with was "the batter seems bloodthirsty" or somethign to taht degree, but it was something nonetheless.

b) This is very confusing here. To clarify:

You came into the thread, didn't commit to a vote and thought about it a bit before voting the scummiest person on the wagon.

Endeavor comes into the thread, doesn't commit to a vote on the wagon and asks a question to one of the wagon's greatest proponents: Rick. Comes back after the response and votes the scummiest person on the wagon and explains why they left their original vote.

Why is what Endeavor did scummy, but what you did normal.

My problem with your Endeavor response is that you didn't really comment on what was scummy about it. You didn't say if his Batter vote was bad. You didn't critique his reason for jumping off the Kokichi wagon or anything like that. You just explained why what he did on page 2 was scummy then nothing else. <-- This is what I take issue with.

Quote

You then comment about how you don't see anything really scummy about endeavor yet you think some of the votes on Endeavor are "Fine. Just fine."  This is poor play and questionable logic at best.  If you don't see anything scummy about them you should normally feel that their shouldn't really be votes on them and if their are votes on them then they shouldn't be fine, they should be poor in most situations.

Nonsense, not every vote on a wagon is going to be filled with scum intent and I am in no way town reading Endeavor so am not particularly interested in moving pressure away from the slot. If there is a case which I may disagree with but isn't necessarily scummy I am not going to intervene.

@Titania: Yes I meant Faye.

Let me read through other stuff before I become tunnel visioned.

[Cú Chulainn]

...

I meant Toshio Ozaki. Shiki is the source material. Congratulations on not falling for my trap (but please if you have a read there it would be helpful and I feel like an idiot for getting their name wrong)!

[Refakitty³]

I've got to go off, but I'll respond to any questions in the morning. Later, losers!

[All Might]

Please don't confuse me with the Shiki(they're vampires). I am here to have a nice, peaceful life in a quiet secluded village, not to kill you all and convert you into monsters.

[Cú Chulainn]

3 minutes ago, The Batter said:

Mello's recent posts are more inconclusive than organic. They're not productive towards purifying this world.

I disagree with this though. I think that he's super organic! He might even be a vegan! Okay, that might be exaggerating, but I think their posting is more like someone who put down their initial thoughts and then left updated them as more came to their mind. Maybe this is scum motivated, now that I think about the fact that he was being pressured, but I dunno. I think more of their recent posts would be present in their first if they cared about how they looked (because I don't think they're digging deep for bullshit).

[Cú Chulainn]

Just now, Toshio Ozaki said:

Please don't confuse me with the Shiki(they're vampires). I am here to have a nice, peaceful life in a quiet secluded village, not to kill you all and convert you into monsters.

Don't worry. Now that Kratos is the giraffe, you can have the most ridiculous hair award.