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Hi,

Today I'm presenting one of the most downvoted characters from FE: Awakening. Virion is a character who shows up in Chapter 1 as an archer with D-bows and an iron bow where most characters still have E in their main weapon (even Sully, Chrom and Avatar start at E everywhere and weapons with very bad damage, and Chrom has the worst personal weapon I've ever seen in FEs with 5 MT until chapter 24 or 25 correct me if I'm wrong). He can ORKO most pegasi and maybe some wyverns if you give him a strength support backpack. His speed is lackluster at first and his base class archer won't help him with it.

But what people tend to call a bad class set is actually an excellent class set: Archer can give him some free exp from badly positionned ennemy flyers (no need to double for that and his accuracy is probably the highest in the game), plus it gives him more crit rate from skill and skill+2 and AP +10 hit/avoid. It allows him to get a mounted 8 movement promotion with rally skill and bowbreaker (LULZ) and a foot unit with hit +20 (LOLUSELESS on Virion)and bowfaire (nice support unit skill). He can go Bow knight>Wyvern lord/Griffon Lord (one more avoid skill+sword breaker and immunity to any non-magic effective weapon/ or Deliverer +lance breaker for mobility and knight/paladin/pegasus counterplay in most cases, if he goes for both Wyverns he gets immunity to paladins, pegasi, swordmasters, most GK, etc.).

What I prefer and what I did in my current solorun with him is go for level 10 (actually 11 in my playthrough) reclass into mage before chapter 4 and then alternate between Fred and Chrom suport until he doesn't need Fred anymore. Mage gives him +2 mag (which helps a lot for his not so good base magic, 9+2 for me at level 1 I was blessed maybe)and then Focus for crit +10 LULZ like Virion doesn't already have insane crit with any thunder-type tome. Then go for Sage to get the god-tier tomefaire (god tier on him at least) and have decent def/res with good speed (finally) and magic (yes mine got to 31 magic at level 11/18/15 sage) then reclass into dark knight because 8 move and life drain (and maybe slow burn but I don't care he already has 30+ speed at this moment).

Doesn't even need any other reclass. Just archer>mage>sage>dark knight is enough he can reroll dark knight until he caps any stat. Mine has around 40 speed and skil around level 7 DK and 35+ magic/strength with 25 like def/res. He has around 35% crit rate with 10 CR weapons and focus.

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I didn't think anyone was ever really arguing that Virion was that bad. There aren't many (none come to mind actually?? Ricken and Maribelle maybe but they're still not even bad.) shitty units in that game. I'm not so convinced on mage - you'll have to do it very early when enemies still have like no res and having Virion at level 10 that early isn't super realistic without favoriting him. And even then Miriel still exists to outshadow him in almost every way other than maybe defensively (but why are you letting your mages get hit?).

I think the issue with Virion's class set is more that the weapon's don't translate well. Magic and staves are exclusive to his mage line, bows and swords to his archer line, and axes and lances to his wyvern line. So going for a reclass is going to stick you with E weapons. If you have high enough stats to overcome that it's fine, but Virion needs some work to get into that.

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I think disdain for him nowadays draw from FEH, though I dropped that game a while back.

I don't really think he's a bad unit in a regular run.  People put too much stock in class sets, imo, which really are only good for considering post-game stuff like Apotheosis.  Virion works well in assisting Chrom in the decimation of enemy wyverns, and he's excellent for baiting mages.  Pretty much an average archer, but since you don't get another one early game unless you reclass either Chrom or Robin, he offers his own valuable niche.

It's basically like Darros said; there aren't any bad units.  And I know Virion gets flaked for being the traditional flirt, but I actually really do like his character.  I like him a hell of a lot more than Severa in Awakening, that's for sure.  Before you shit on me for that opinion, just let me say that I think Severa is immensely improved in Fates.

Edited by Ertrick36

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I wouldn't call Virion bad, my issue with Virion is his inability to counterattack during the enemy phase which is where most of the action takes place and this is something that is true of nearly all archers throughout the series. If one can pick up the Double Bow from the Infinite Regalia DLC this hindrance can be offset. In terms of personality I find him humerous. I have found once you get Virion to Bow Knight he is able to contribute a lot more a lot easier. 

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If one can pick up the Double Bow from the Infinite Regalia DLC this hindrance can be offset.

Double bow has 2-3 range, not 1-2 like in Radiant Dawn (sadly).

I went mage!Virion to suppress the archer's inability to counterattack and the weakness to magic/bows/dragon killer that wyvern has and I find him useful as is. Yup, his stats can make him a front line unit, yup he's the most accurate mage in the game outside of avatar/children and it goes with a highcrit rate (35% crit rate with 10% CR weapons is really nice especially in magic) and at level 14 mine was 1 MT close to 1HKO Yen Fay in normal mode (49 damage on 50 HP Yen Fay why not 50! lol np I killed him anyway with Anna backpack for...useless treasure hunting in solorun...) and with Anna lv1 he had +10 magic LOL (+5+2+3). level 15 He's using a 144% hit 30% crit Thoron with 36+7 magic and 40 skill with 42-capped speed. His 72 HP and 26/25 def/res are enough to temporize even difficult mode until he can life drain an ennemy (and he 2-turns chapter 19 with 10 move just with boots I'd like to go for deliverer but I prefer using slow burn, magic +2, tomefaire, focus and life drain (and sometimes you can't even use all your move since you're body blocked). 77 base avoid, +10 crit meaning 40% crit with 59 damage Thoron magic uncapped.

Ricken has lower speed, higher luck, higher def, about the same HP, much lower skill/strength, probably less res or even. Ricken has less hit rate, crit rate, double attacks and his reclasses aren't interesting (cavalier doesn't bring anything except if you value aegis more than lancebreaker, swordbreaker, deliverer and fast burn and luna needs skill as much as aegis to be activated, which is not Ricken's strength except if you can afford to go in an archer class to help his skill and it's not very interesting on Ricken).

Miriel has a full magic class set, higher speed, higher magic, higher res. Even luck. Worse HP, skill, def, strength. She won't crit as much unless she has a fat lead in exp, she won't be useful during ennemy phase unless nosferatank (anyone can be useful in EP as a nosferatank so it's not a good comparison point) and I don't allow myself to nosferatank since it's not even funny. She has worse early game due to her terrible def growth (yes orse than Virion's) and even with Freddie backpack she has no more than 7-8 def at level 1 vs 10 def level 2 Virion. The 8 1st levels are easy to take with Virion (yes they are even in hard mode where you should rely more on the team than in normal mode to give exp to Virion without killing him) since he only has to last hit ennemies. he comes level 1 mage with more magic than level 3 Ricken, more def and more speed, more res, more HP, much more skill, and he can get to level 10-20 around chapter 8 to use the master seal to sage. Then it's so easy it's not even relatable, just backpack Chrom on Virion and breeze through the game.

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I really really love Virion. He's possibly my favorite character in Awakening. In a playthrough I did, he ended up taking the spotlight and KOing everything I put him up against!

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Any difficulty no-grind playthrough, Virion is trash assuming you're willing to snowball a handful of units. Virion is range 2 locked, which relegates him to the garbage bin given Awakening's enemy phase the size of the moon, barring the grinding of a team of Galeforced optimal units. 

Being the only base Archer- well poor bases, weapon rank, and the inability to enemy phase combined make him bad. Seriously IS? Did you not learn why so many early archers in the prior games ended up being deemed poor by efficient standards? Outside of optimization, there is no such thing as a good Archer/Sniper in Awakening under the above conditions. Maybe Spotpass Jamke, but that is it. Flier killing? Wind Magic I say! Pegs don't show up until Valm, long after you'll have decided to bench or raise a Bow user, and the Wyverns of Plegia beforehand are physically strong and magically weak.

Now what if you reclass Virion to something else like Sage or Wyvern Lord? Answer- he can snowball and win! But you know who else can? EVERYONE! Everyone in Awakening is perfectly usable with this strat, it's the great leveler amongst units. But it doesn't work so well if at all on terrible enemy phase classes: Trickster, SM, Taguel, Assassin, Bow Knight, Sniper (and even the Sword can work 1-2 range with Einherjar Levin Sword buys or a Ragnell + Armsthrift- Bows alone cannot).

 

3 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Ricken has lower speed, higher luck, higher def, about the same HP, much lower skill/strength, probably less res or even.

2 fewer Skill when both are capped if the two are in the same class, that is it. Growths? 70 is better than 50, and equates to 2 more points per ten levels but what standard is 50 bad? Awakening's overinflated stats? Stats which you can cap easily with endless grinding? Stats where outside Spd 2 points where caps go into the 40s without Limit Breaker is insignificant most the of the time. Why does Strength matter if they're both Mages here? And speed-wise, a mere 10 more growth, 1 point per ten levels.

3 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

She has worse early game due to her terrible def growth (yes orse than Virion's) and even with Freddie backpack she has no more than 7-8 def at level 1 vs 10 def level 2 Virion.

So you're comparing a Virion with 8 levels under his belt vs. a Miriel who despite coming 1 chapter later, has gained none? Not what I'd call fair in the slightest.

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5 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Double bow has 2-3 range, not 1-2 like in Radiant Dawn (sadly).

Oh, whoops! Sorry about that, I thought I remembered it being 1-2 range. Obviously it's been a while since I've used Awakening's Double Bow, I liked how it was 1-2 range in Radiant Dawn ESPECIALLY when in the hands of a Marksman it then had up to 3 range. Meining you could attack ANYBODY during enemy phase and attack anyone without repercussions, the only exception being mages with some sort of siege tome.

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First off, while Virion might be accurate, high Skill generally isn't meaningful. Second, he's outclassed at wyvern-killing by Chrom and the mages (Pegasus knights don't show up until much later). Third, while Virion might have a weapon rank advantage, it doesn't last. Fourth, "ORKO" implies that he can double in the first place, which... he can't for a good while. Fifth, Focus is pretty bad (that +10 crit only applies if you have no allies nearby - not exactly a good thing in a strategy game like this). Sixth, his class set isn't that good.. the weapons don't translate well.

7 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Miriel has a full magic class set, higher speed, higher magic, higher res. Even luck. Worse HP, skill, def, strength. She won't crit as much unless she has a fat lead in exp, she won't be useful during ennemy phase unless nosferatank (anyone can be useful in EP as a nosferatank so it's not a good comparison point) and I don't allow myself to nosferatank since it's not even funny. She has worse early game due to her terrible def growth (yes orse than Virion's) and even with Freddie backpack she has no more than 7-8 def at level 1 vs 10 def level 2 Virion. The 8 1st levels are easy to take with Virion (yes they are even in hard mode where you should rely more on the team than in normal mode to give exp to Virion without killing him) since he only has to last hit ennemies. he comes level 1 mage with more magic than level 3 Ricken, more def and more speed, more res, more HP, much more skill, and he can get to level 10-20 around chapter 8 to use the master seal to sage. Then it's so easy it's not even relatable, just backpack Chrom on Virion and breeze through the game.

This sounds like obvious exaggeration... first off, Virion's better growths in HP and Defense are by 10%... and the higher HP growth disappears should he reclass into Mage. Second, assuming that he was reclassed at level 10, Virion has 6 mag vs Ricken's 8. Last I checked, 6 is not greater than 8. And this is assuming he got that many levels in the first place... Not. Bloody. Likely. Oh, and his defense lead over Ricken disappears if he goes Mage.

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Growths? 70 is better than 50, and equates to 2 more points per ten levels but what standard is 50 bad? Awakening's overinflated stats? Stats which you can cap easily with endless grinding? Stats where outside Spd 2 points where caps go into the 40s without Limit Breaker is insignificant most the of the time. Why does Strength matter if they're both Mages here? And speed-wise, a mere 10 more growth, 1 point per ten levels.

LOL you don't know how percentage works do you? Many FE 8 units have several 50% growths yet they don't really gain 1 point in them every 2nd level (not even average level up). While people with 60 or 70% gain much more often that crucial point. Having less magic doesn't matter since he will just use better tomes earlier. Why? Cuz' in Awakening, to "balance" hitrate, crit rate and dodge, they lowered the effectiveness of speed, skill and luck (otherwise you would have 150 base avoid and 50 dodge on anyone capping speed and luck with a dodgetank class) so it means that you need like 5 more skill early game to hit effectively (otherwise you'll miss quite often if RNG is screwed like it is sometimes) and Virion has...skill! So he can use the best weapons available for his weapon rank without loosing hit% and he can also use higher crit rate and damage tomes (AKA thunder tomes vs fire/wind) to deal more damage with the same or even more accuracy than both Miriel and Ricken. Maybe it doesn't matter in late game, but in early game it is overkill.

You don't believe me? It's the same for RD units: Nolan hits less hard and has less HP than Boyd, yet he hits more often because he caps his skill quite fast while Boyd will close to never cap it, he has more speed so he doesn't get doubled while Boyd get doubled by anything faster than 18 by his join time and he will hardly ever reach his speed cap, Nolan has more rounded stats and caps more late game useful stats so while Boyd can still OS ennemies, Nolan won't miss when he can attack and he will dodgetank (earth affinity)+take more magic hits before dying. Virion as a mage has high skill, average magic (around 15 level 15), correct def/res (both around the same level about 10 points each by level 10/10-15 against maybe 11-12 def 5 res for Ricken and 6-7/10-11 for Miriel, max 13 I'd say in average playthrough) with more overall stats due to more levels (it matters when you promote them because your level 1 promoted Virion who had access to more exp before promotion got more levels while Ricken/Miriel who got promoted without reclassing because mage promotions are good won't have the same stats and as promoted units they're gonna end up getting less level ups than Virion) and over that his skill strong lead will bring him to deal the same magic damage with thunder tomes 1 or 2 ranks above those you're using with Miriel or Ricken just because these 2 can't hit shit with C-rank or even D-rank thunder tomes (they can't hit shit with thunder tomes in general I'd say they need too much weapon accuracy because of sucky base skill and average growth rate that can make their skill screwed if RNG isn't with you). Having more stats, he also has more chances to benefit from focus since he won't get 1RKOed unlike Ricken (abysmal speed) and Miriel (abysmal def leads to death against those 26+ damage units after chapter 9 or so).

I'm currently raising a Miriel in a hard no grind no pair up run (quite hard sometimes not getting the bonus stats and the support mechanics oriented into full pair up screws supports as in previous FEs you just had to stand at less or equal to 3 tiles from your support to benefit from it while in Awakening you have to be side by side which is damn stupid is a game ruled by large lains and gigantic maps for a small game device such as GBA/NDS/N3DS) and I can say she has around the same growths as Virion in this run (not using Virion in this one to try Miriel again) sure she can deal damage and double...yes she can deal damage to knights and double knights...and some slow fighters and shit (she's level 14 unpromoted with 68 stats in the undetailed information, 30 HP, 15+2 mag, 9 skill, 13 speed and 14 luck, 5 def and 9 res), she sucks balls at doubling and still has 105 hit with E-thunder tomes has 9 ridiculous crit rate with it (19 if she can if her lifetime use focus but she will likely never be able to in a no grind run anyway). Virion level 10/1 mage has the same spd, less HP, less magic (lol 6), about +6 skill (+2 with skill+2), around the same speed, few less luck, more def and nearly same res with 4 levels less than her so he can reach 11-12 magic, 18-19 skill (+2), 14-15 speed, about the same luck, +2 def and same res at level 5 (to reach her level 14 no reclass) and he still didn't get as much exp as a level 10/1 reclassed get more exp than a level 10-14 so he would even get more stats than her with the same amount of exp (average Virion, not even blessed Virion). Now explain why you think you should use her over him (not even mentionning Ricken cuz' he sucks with no reclass options for magic and loss of his strengths if he goes cavalier route). She can't get more exp than him since she will get OHKOed by ennemies Virion can actually take a hit from, she won't do more than chip damage until mid game or even later since she doesn't double anything aside from knights and you WANT to abuse knights in a no grind run since it's your best way to maximize exp in the main campaign, she can't be used as a bait as much as him (same reason shitty def with bottom-rank HP) so she won't attack often in EP (your main argument for exp if I'm correct) and she doesn't even tank mages with D or C rank tomes since her res is also BS (Lissa with awful level ups ends bulkier than average Miriel and Lissa has miracle to tank one more hit).

If you use the argument of EP for Miriel's superiority, I answer that Virion can bait range units to counterattack on EP or he can actually take 1 to 2 hits before dying to any physical ennemy while Miriel can only tank mages who have no hit (dark mages) or no damage (mages) in early game anyway except those with higher rank weapons who deal more than she can tank for her to take any other hit in the same turn, meaning she won't ever tank 2 hits until easy chapters where she catches up to the others in terms of tanking (will it ever happen? I don't think so) and maybe I'll have to bench any unit with <21 def for late game since they're gonna get 2HKOed by anything by then. If you talk about damage, 90+% hit with 5-10% crit thunder tomes with higher weapon rank will always mean Virion's win vs Miriel. Focus use will give him 10% more crit rate than she will ever get in her life. + higher base crit rate with skill. +archer lv 10 skill gives him +10 hit/avoid on his turn so he's gonna dodge and hit more often anyway. Miriel has access to dark mage yeah, but then why use her over Tharja who comes like level 10, with good bases except in skill (not very far from Miriel anyway and I bet if I raise Tharja in this playthrough she's gonna have more than the 9 skill of Miriel at level 14 or at least equal and more def with nearly equal res and probably more res at level 20 than Miriel with like +7 def than Miriel, about the same/+ HP and Nosferatank from the start without wasting a precious second seal) and her luck isn't exciting either but more base tanking stats means less damage anyway and crit don't happen so often except from killer weapons which Tharja will tank way better anyway since 14 damage 20% crit hits higher than 7 damage 25% crit (well Miriel would just get 1HKOed while Tharja would loose 21 HP on a crit).

So if you don't wanna argue more, I declare mage!Virion better by an inch than Miriel for a no grind run, way better than Ricken due to same average defence and better speed skill res and HP, and better than Henry due to shitty join time and also only one magic class without tomefaire or staves. Nowi mage is out of question due to join time and 5 levels without tome and shitty bases especially for that join time with dragonstone not even allowing her not to get doubled by fast units without supports. In a no pair up run, Miriel is hardly even usable (like I'm doing now, if I were listening to myself I'd bench her and feed her 12 level ups-worth exp to someone else in exponential growth to replace her without loosing anything). Anyway Miriel is probably gonna be a staff bot in the end when promoted to sage along with Lissa level 13 24 HP, 13 mag, 11 skill (lol higher than Miriel's without having offensive weapons), 12 speed, 18 luck, 4 def and 8 res (yes she got screwed on defensive stats but she's better than usual in offensive ones so she's gonna be a good staff bot with good magic and miracle to save her ass with her wonderful luck), Libra who can take the most hits out of any staff users and Anna if I recruit her (she's not "cannon" since not coming from the main campaign so I don't know, I'll probably recruit her just for staff bot+chests since Gaius sucks balls in combat in no pair up he can't even scratch a dark mage while not tanking/dodging anything until level 10+ promoted so he won't gain any exp ever).

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8 minutes ago, mangasdeouf said:

LOL you don't know how percentage works do you? Many FE 8 units have several 50% growths yet they don't really gain 1 point in them every 2nd level (not even average level up). While people with 60 or 70% gain much more often that crucial point. Having less magic doesn't matter since he will just use better tomes earlier. Why? Cuz' in Awakening, to "balance" hitrate, crit rate and dodge, they lowered the effectiveness of speed, skill and luck (otherwise you would have 150 base avoid and 50 dodge on anyone capping speed and luck with a dodgetank class) so it means that you need like 5 more skill early game to hit effectively (otherwise you'll miss quite often if RNG is screwed like it is sometimes) and Virion has...skill! So he can use the best weapons available for his weapon rank without loosing hit% and he can also use higher crit rate and damage tomes (AKA thunder tomes vs fire/wind) to deal more damage with the same or even more accuracy than both Miriel and Ricken. Maybe it doesn't matter in late game, but in early game it is overkill.

There is no such thing as "that crucial point" of skill, unless you're an LTC player that absolutely need that 1% crit chance on a boss or something equally ridiculous. Otherwise, it's a purely gradual parameter - more is obviously better, but there are no specific breakpoints like other stats have, like Str to turn a X-hit-KO into a (X-1)-hit-KO; Spd to double certain enemies or enemy classes (or occasionally to avoid being doubled), HP/Def to be able to tank an additional hit, or even Luck to avoid those pesky 1% crits on enemies without Killer weapons or innate crit. +1 Skill just gives you (in this game) +1.5 displayed hit, no matter what the absolute stats are.

I haven't played Awakening myself, but to my knowledge, player hitrates also tend to be higher than displayed 75%, which makes the difference in true hit per point of skill even lower - for example, going from 50 to 55 hit increases true hit by 9.45% (50.5 -> 59.95), going from 72 to 77 equals +5.05% true hit (84.6 -> 89.65), and going from 90 to 95 only nets +1.45% true hit (98.1 -> 99.55). (source)

This is, of course, disregarding any +hit skills that Virion might collect - apparently, Snipers do get a total of +38 hit on player phase - and any kind of proc skills (although Virion apparently doesn't get those), but it still goes to show that a difference of 20% isn't really that much as you're hyping it up to be. If anything, it's even less valuable in Awakening (again, disregarding proc skills) because, as you said yourself, every individual point of skill is worth even less than in the older games with +2 hit per skill.

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At no point does Virion's additional accuracy through skill make a significant or realy even noticable difference versus any other ranged unit that the game hands you. Enemies aren't FE6 Dodgey in this game. 

I love the guy but it is definitely a sandbag to the rest of the game to baby him the way I would baby say, Donnel, only I feel like donnel is easier to train since the EnemyPhase presence lets him deal with things after help from stuff like a Kellam support plus a Def Tonic, as he can counterkill for exp against the vast majority of enemytypes in the game. vs Virion countering the handful of earlygame mages/darkmages

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Try thunder tomes Miriel or Ricken, try instant reclass Virion with thunde tomes. You'll see the skill difference. It's not about 1-5 skill difference, it's about Miriel's skill hardly getting to 14 unpromoted against 20+ for Virion mage, and Miriel hardly reaching 30 skill level 20 promoted vs nearly capped skill for Virion. Menaning there's a 15 hit difference average for him to use thunder tomes effectively (without missing 1 attack out of 3) against other mages. 10 skill also means around 5 cir rate (otherwise it's half skill half luck then it goes down to 25% skill and 0.5% luck). Still 2.5 or 5% crit rate are better than nothing on top of weapon's 5 to 10% crit rate meaning you're using a unit with 7.5 to 15 more crit rate and 1 more MT than fire tomes (so crits deal 3 more damage on top of much higher crit rate).

Please stop with the argument that Virion has no ennemy phase, Miriel needs general!Kellam backpack to survive ennemy phase and to have around the same total def as Virion's no pair up def. So they are getting about the same exp anyway. If you can make Miriel work, then you could make Virion shine as a mage critter with high accuracy and enough bulk to survive EP. Miriel seems good on paper until you try her in no pair-up and you see how bad the unit is on her own (meaning anyone could do the same as her if they get the same favoritism or even better like Libra who is her male version with the same class set, better bases, direct access to sustain ability + innate miracle + doesn't need babying while he can be the one to baby others). Even Kellam makes for a better mage than Miriel with basic highest physical bulk of all mages so he can actually have a real EP.

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Donnel, only I feel like donnel is easier to train since the EnemyPhase presence lets him deal with things after help from stuff like a Kellam support plus a Def Tonic, as he can counterkill for exp against the vast majority of enemytypes in the game. vs Virion countering the handful of earlygame mages/darkmages

Except if you find Virion's stats and lack of ennemy phase awful then you're shooting in your own foot since Donnel needs 9 or even 14 levels (for underdog) before promotion to be able to have stats, just stats. By chapter 4 when you can recruit Donnel, Virion could already be level 5 or even 7. I reached level 7 with Sully+Stahl+6 Miriel+8 or more Chrom+2 Frederick or close by that point so yes you could have a Virion close to reclassing by then when your Donnel is level 1 with dirt stats and E lances which he is never gonna use after reclassing anyway, he misses often and his recruitment chapter is full of barbarians and you have to move forward if you want to steal the chests loot, with Donny needing 2 kills + 4 chips or 3 kills + 1 chip to get precious exp from the others instead of giving it to the ones who can immediately do something with it. Plus Donnel has only 3 promoted classes instead of 4-6.

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5 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

LOL you don't know how percentage works do you? Many FE 8 units have several 50% growths yet they don't really gain 1 point in them every 2nd level (not even average level up). While people with 60 or 70% gain much more often that crucial point. Having less magic doesn't matter since he will just use better tomes earlier. Why? Cuz' in Awakening, to "balance" hitrate, crit rate and dodge, they lowered the effectiveness of speed, skill and luck (otherwise you would have 150 base avoid and 50 dodge on anyone capping speed and luck with a dodgetank class) so it means that you need like 5 more skill early game to hit effectively (otherwise you'll miss quite often if RNG is screwed like it is sometimes) and Virion has...skill! So he can use the best weapons available for his weapon rank without loosing hit% and he can also use higher crit rate and damage tomes (AKA thunder tomes vs fire/wind) to deal more damage with the same or even more accuracy than both Miriel and Ricken. Maybe it doesn't matter in late game, but in early game it is overkill.

You don't believe me? It's the same for RD units: Nolan hits less hard and has less HP than Boyd, yet he hits more often because he caps his skill quite fast while Boyd will close to never cap it, he has more speed so he doesn't get doubled while Boyd get doubled by anything faster than 18 by his join time and he will hardly ever reach his speed cap, Nolan has more rounded stats and caps more late game useful stats so while Boyd can still OS ennemies, Nolan won't miss when he can attack and he will dodgetank (earth affinity)+take more magic hits before dying. Virion as a mage has high skill, average magic (around 15 level 15), correct def/res (both around the same level about 10 points each by level 10/10-15 against maybe 11-12 def 5 res for Ricken and 6-7/10-11 for Miriel, max 13 I'd say in average playthrough) with more overall stats due to more levels (it matters when you promote them because your level 1 promoted Virion who had access to more exp before promotion got more levels while Ricken/Miriel who got promoted without reclassing because mage promotions are good won't have the same stats and as promoted units they're gonna end up getting less level ups than Virion) and over that his skill strong lead will bring him to deal the same magic damage with thunder tomes 1 or 2 ranks above those you're using with Miriel or Ricken just because these 2 can't hit shit with C-rank or even D-rank thunder tomes (they can't hit shit with thunder tomes in general I'd say they need too much weapon accuracy because of sucky base skill and average growth rate that can make their skill screwed if RNG isn't with you). Having more stats, he also has more chances to benefit from focus since he won't get 1RKOed unlike Ricken (abysmal speed) and Miriel (abysmal def leads to death against those 26+ damage units after chapter 9 or so).

I'm currently raising a Miriel in a hard no grind no pair up run (quite hard sometimes not getting the bonus stats and the support mechanics oriented into full pair up screws supports as in previous FEs you just had to stand at less or equal to 3 tiles from your support to benefit from it while in Awakening you have to be side by side which is damn stupid is a game ruled by large lains and gigantic maps for a small game device such as GBA/NDS/N3DS) and I can say she has around the same growths as Virion in this run (not using Virion in this one to try Miriel again) sure she can deal damage and double...yes she can deal damage to knights and double knights...and some slow fighters and shit (she's level 14 unpromoted with 68 stats in the undetailed information, 30 HP, 15+2 mag, 9 skill, 13 speed and 14 luck, 5 def and 9 res), she sucks balls at doubling and still has 105 hit with E-thunder tomes has 9 ridiculous crit rate with it (19 if she can if her lifetime use focus but she will likely never be able to in a no grind run anyway). Virion level 10/1 mage has the same spd, less HP, less magic (lol 6), about +6 skill (+2 with skill+2), around the same speed, few less luck, more def and nearly same res with 4 levels less than her so he can reach 11-12 magic, 18-19 skill (+2), 14-15 speed, about the same luck, +2 def and same res at level 5 (to reach her level 14 no reclass) and he still didn't get as much exp as a level 10/1 reclassed get more exp than a level 10-14 so he would even get more stats than her with the same amount of exp (average Virion, not even blessed Virion). Now explain why you think you should use her over him (not even mentionning Ricken cuz' he sucks with no reclass options for magic and loss of his strengths if he goes cavalier route). She can't get more exp than him since she will get OHKOed by ennemies Virion can actually take a hit from, she won't do more than chip damage until mid game or even later since she doesn't double anything aside from knights and you WANT to abuse knights in a no grind run since it's your best way to maximize exp in the main campaign, she can't be used as a bait as much as him (same reason shitty def with bottom-rank HP) so she won't attack often in EP (your main argument for exp if I'm correct) and she doesn't even tank mages with D or C rank tomes since her res is also BS (Lissa with awful level ups ends bulkier than average Miriel and Lissa has miracle to tank one more hit).

If you use the argument of EP for Miriel's superiority, I answer that Virion can bait range units to counterattack on EP or he can actually take 1 to 2 hits before dying to any physical ennemy while Miriel can only tank mages who have no hit (dark mages) or no damage (mages) in early game anyway except those with higher rank weapons who deal more than she can tank for her to take any other hit in the same turn, meaning she won't ever tank 2 hits until easy chapters where she catches up to the others in terms of tanking (will it ever happen? I don't think so) and maybe I'll have to bench any unit with <21 def for late game since they're gonna get 2HKOed by anything by then. If you talk about damage, 90+% hit with 5-10% crit thunder tomes with higher weapon rank will always mean Virion's win vs Miriel. Focus use will give him 10% more crit rate than she will ever get in her life. + higher base crit rate with skill. +archer lv 10 skill gives him +10 hit/avoid on his turn so he's gonna dodge and hit more often anyway. Miriel has access to dark mage yeah, but then why use her over Tharja who comes like level 10, with good bases except in skill (not very far from Miriel anyway and I bet if I raise Tharja in this playthrough she's gonna have more than the 9 skill of Miriel at level 14 or at least equal and more def with nearly equal res and probably more res at level 20 than Miriel with like +7 def than Miriel, about the same/+ HP and Nosferatank from the start without wasting a precious second seal) and her luck isn't exciting either but more base tanking stats means less damage anyway and crit don't happen so often except from killer weapons which Tharja will tank way better anyway since 14 damage 20% crit hits higher than 7 damage 25% crit (well Miriel would just get 1HKOed while Tharja would loose 21 HP on a crit).

So if you don't wanna argue more, I declare mage!Virion better by an inch than Miriel for a no grind run, way better than Ricken due to same average defence and better speed skill res and HP, and better than Henry due to shitty join time and also only one magic class without tomefaire or staves. Nowi mage is out of question due to join time and 5 levels without tome and shitty bases especially for that join time with dragonstone not even allowing her not to get doubled by fast units without supports. In a no pair up run, Miriel is hardly even usable (like I'm doing now, if I were listening to myself I'd bench her and feed her 12 level ups-worth exp to someone else in exponential growth to replace her without loosing anything). Anyway Miriel is probably gonna be a staff bot in the end when promoted to sage along with Lissa level 13 24 HP, 13 mag, 11 skill (lol higher than Miriel's without having offensive weapons), 12 speed, 18 luck, 4 def and 8 res (yes she got screwed on defensive stats but she's better than usual in offensive ones so she's gonna be a good staff bot with good magic and miracle to save her ass with her wonderful luck), Libra who can take the most hits out of any staff users and Anna if I recruit her (she's not "cannon" since not coming from the main campaign so I don't know, I'll probably recruit her just for staff bot+chests since Gaius sucks balls in combat in no pair up he can't even scratch a dark mage while not tanking/dodging anything until level 10+ promoted so he won't gain any exp ever).

Dude. Why are you pretending that Virion's high skill makes any difference? This isn't FE6. Anyway, high skill makes less difference than having high stats elsewhere. And I call BS on Virion being able to get to high rank tomes sooner when he's starting at E (to put things into perspective, Ricken starts at D, and Miriel would also be at D if you aren't sandbagging her).

I'm not sure what you hoped to prove here - Radiant Dawn had BEXP. Anyway, your comparison is hardly fair. Also, you need to stop deluding yourself into believing Virion's high skill means anything, because it doesn't. And Focus is hot garbage - 10 extra crit doesn't make tactical suicide appealing.

WRT supports, they're also easier to build than in previous games, especially the GBA games. Anyway, Miriel isn't stuck in a bad class without using a precious second seal. I also don't see why you're putting stock in HP, since Awakening has dramatically inflated HP growths (the least you'll see is 70) - this isn't Low HP Emblem.

You aren't going to get people to take you seriously by blurting out obvious BS. Focus is trash. Virion won't have higher weapon rank unless you're sandbagging (he doesn't magically start at D rank). As for why I would use Miriel over Tharja, it's because the latter has accuracy problems (fun fact: Tharja has less skill and luck than Miriel forever), and faces crit chances from a lot of stuff as well. Nosferatanking doesn't mean a damn if you either can't hit or if you eat a critical hit and die a horrible death, now does it???

Because you busted your ass to favor Virion while sandbagging everyone else, right?

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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Tharja can use fire magic until her skill problem is fixed (I never had any problems with getting her to 13 skill min at level 20 as a dark mage) and you don't throw away nosferatu uses, you use it when you need to, not whenever you have it. It means those dangerous wyvern riders in chapter 10 are not a problem for her since their avoid is trash she can easily hit them with nosferatu even without supports if she needs to and she has access to it from the start, has good base def, corrct magic and speed, no one should double her at this point, and she gets easy kills from the other's leftovers in a chapter where you want your mobile units to chase the thieves while your static units finish low life minions (Kellam and Tharja for example).And Tharja isn't a mage, she's a dark mage, and the best cannon dark mage with that (given the fat there are only 2 cannon dark mages in your army and the other one starts getting doubled by any medium speed ennemy). Put Tharja on a fort with nosferatu and she won't die in hard mode no grind chapter 10. Put Miriel on a fort in hard mode no grind chapter 10 and she'll die in 2 attacks because of how bad her dodgetank and bulk both are. Tharja is self-sufficient from the start while Miriel needs to be fed the exp you could put into Chrom or Sully or Stahl to stay usable and she still has nothing good for her with these low defensive growths that keep her away from the front forever.

If you want, try a no grind run with Tharja and then one with Miriel. To understand how much Miriel is lackluster, ply this run in no pair up. Miriel can't move forward while Tharja can go in the center of the map from her level 15 or so dark mage without dying (except if there are lethal wapons or promoted ennemies or more than 5 ennemies OFC it's hard mode not rainbow mode but Miriel can't even solo 2 ennemies while Tharja can solo 4 easily, 5 if lucky at the same level and also this means she can get like 4x more exp than Miriel in the same chapter because she can rely on herself and chip + sustain + kil ennemies without help). Even as a dark mage Miriel stays defensively low with her def growth still low and her res growth being lowered from mage to dark mage. If you're ORKO how could you possibly nosferatank?

Edited by mangasdeouf

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Miriel would be good in FE:TSS where there are many castles and maps where you can put a tank in a door and just feed all the exp to the squishy ranged units (typical good farming chapters being chapter 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, Ephraim 9 or Eirika 10 etc.) while most of Awakening maps are enormous maps with ennemies coming from everywhere and rout objective. Squishies aren't good in Awakening because of the map design allowing them to die from encirclement very often. So use the bulky ones as much as possible (or balanced units like Sully who can both dodge some hits and tank some).

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3 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

Tharja can use fire magic until her skill problem is fixed (I never had any problems with getting her to 13 skill min at level 20 as a dark mage) and you don't throw away nosferatu uses, you use it when you need to, not whenever you have it. It means those dangerous wyvern riders in chapter 10 are not a problem for her since their avoid is trash she can easily hit them with nosferatu even without supports if she needs to and she has access to it from the start, has good base def, corrct magic and speed, no one should double her at this point, and she gets easy kills from the other's leftovers in a chapter where you want your mobile units to chase the thieves while your static units finish low life minions (Kellam and Tharja for example).And Tharja isn't a mage, she's a dark mage, and the best cannon dark mage with that (given the fat there are only 2 cannon dark mages in your army and the other one starts getting doubled by any medium speed ennemy). Put Tharja on a fort with nosferatu and she won't die in hard mode no grind chapter 10. Put Miriel on a fort in hard mode no grind chapter 10 and she'll die in 2 attacks because of how bad her dodgetank and bulk both are. Tharja is self-sufficient from the start while Miriel needs to be fed the exp you could put into Chrom or Sully or Stahl to stay usable and she still has nothing good for her with these low defensive growths that keep her away from the front forever.

If you want, try a no grind run with Tharja and then one with Miriel. To understand how much Miriel is lackluster, ply this run in no pair up. Miriel can't move forward while Tharja can go in the center of the map from her level 15 or so dark mage without dying (except if there are lethal wapons or promoted ennemies or more than 5 ennemies OFC it's hard mode not rainbow mode but Miriel can't even solo 2 ennemies while Tharja can solo 4 easily, 5 if lucky at the same level and also this means she can get like 4x more exp than Miriel in the same chapter because she can rely on herself and chip + sustain + kil ennemies without help). Even as a dark mage Miriel stays defensively low with her def growth still low and her res growth being lowered from mage to dark mage. If you're ORKO how could you possibly nosferatank?

In other words, you had a blessed Tharja. Anyways... while she might not get doubled, she still faces crit chances, and Nosferataking doesn't mean a damn if you croak because some cannon fodder got a critical hit in. So no, calling Tharja "self-sufficient" is a joke, and you know it. 

Really now? You're ragging on Miriel because she can't survive a bunch of enemies at once? Come on man. You're trying way too hard. That's not what she's meant to do - what she is meant to do is bring the pain to magically weak enemies, and she does this well enough. Also, ORKO implies Miriel's getting doubled and one-rounded, which most enemies can't do to her.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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I exagerate a little. Only a little. But still Tharja is more worth the exp you throw at her and she comes with already more levels than Miriel so you don't have to level her up from the bottom of level 1-3. She's more worth it because few ennemies have enough crit rate to effectively land a crit on her (and you have a goddess icon soon enough to bump her base luck to salvageable even without any level up in luck) and because her bases and growths mean she can avoid getting doubled, double slow ennemies and taking a few hits. It's what EP means. Miriel can't so she's not more useful than archer!Virion. Her only good use is as a staff bot since her magic makes her heal a lot and her range is quite good. What's the interest of having a unit who can ORKO anyone if this unit will die if 2 people attack her? In the FE game with the highest number of ennemies surrounding you all the time?

RD had NPC to help you defend castles or positions, TSS had a very well balanced stat spread (if you look at it carefully any stat on any ennemy is calculated to be in a certain area for specific units to be able to double them at level X or with only promotion gains or with their average stats etc. and stat boosters are spread through the game to give you the opportunity to use X at a certain point etc. like in RD where some characters seem bad but with X stat booster given at a certain point they can get you to the next level without anything special like giving them all the exp etc.) which is true in any FE game but it's more important in some since it allows you to play in a specific way and it allows speedrunners to use units you would not use in optimal runs because these units can do exactly this job at this moment and allow you to gain a turn etc. (which in some chapters means better win rate or saving a unit in danger by clearing the objective.

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My issue with Virion is that he REALLY struggles to get going if he misses speed growth in his first few level ups.  

Yeah..statistically...if you keep using him, it will average out to acceptable levels over time with additional kills and level-ups.

But its really, really hard to get him there (or even justify trying) when everyone is in the double-digits, and hes stuck on 7 speed. 

That growth rate either needs to kick in right away, consistently and on his first few levels, or he very quickly becomes bench material. 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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22 hours ago, mangasdeouf said:

I exagerate a little. Only a little. But still Tharja is more worth the exp you throw at her and she comes with already more levels than Miriel so you don't have to level her up from the bottom of level 1-3. She's more worth it because few ennemies have enough crit rate to effectively land a crit on her (and you have a goddess icon soon enough to bump her base luck to salvageable even without any level up in luck) and because her bases and growths mean she can avoid getting doubled, double slow ennemies and taking a few hits. It's what EP means. Miriel can't so she's not more useful than archer!Virion. Her only good use is as a staff bot since her magic makes her heal a lot and her range is quite good. What's the interest of having a unit who can ORKO anyone if this unit will die if 2 people attack her? In the FE game with the highest number of ennemies surrounding you all the time?

RD had NPC to help you defend castles or positions, TSS had a very well balanced stat spread (if you look at it carefully any stat on any ennemy is calculated to be in a certain area for specific units to be able to double them at level X or with only promotion gains or with their average stats etc. and stat boosters are spread through the game to give you the opportunity to use X at a certain point etc. like in RD where some characters seem bad but with X stat booster given at a certain point they can get you to the next level without anything special like giving them all the exp etc.) which is true in any FE game but it's more important in some since it allows you to play in a specific way and it allows speedrunners to use units you would not use in optimal runs because these units can do exactly this job at this moment and allow you to gain a turn etc. (which in some chapters means better win rate or saving a unit in danger by clearing the objective.

Correction: you exaggerate a lot. You've been doing it since the beginning of this thread, in fact. I can only think of a select few chapters that are wide open battlefields: chapter 4, chapter 7 (and I'm not entirely sure that one would qualify due to the condensed nature of the map), chapter 8 (desert), chapter 11, chapter 19, chapter 23, chapter 24 (has a lot of forests around the middle of the map), chapter 25 (a good deal of the map is mountains), endgame. About the only time I'd consider Miriel anything resembling a liability is in paralogue 23, and that's more because the enemy forces zerg rush you with everyone they've got.

RD also had bad NPC AI (worse yet, they were yellow units, which moved before the enemy, meaning you couldn't really use them as meatshields unless you had them halt), and Sacred Stones had weak enemies (it's saying something when base level Seth can 2HKO endgame enemies).

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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