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Super Smash Bros. Ultimate News and Discussion: Holding Out for a Hero (out now!)

Now that Ultimate has been out for a while, who is your favorite newcomer?  

22 members have voted

  1. 1. Now that Ultimate has been out for a while, who is your favorite newcomer?

  2. 2. Who is your favorite new Echo Fighter?



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If one of our last two is a Tales rep (please by Yuri instead of Lloyd), Nintendo would have the four main JRPG franchises represented in this one crossover (FF, DQ, Tales, and SMT/Persona). Just a thought.

Edited by Etheus

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19 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

Are the Dragon Quest bros getting hate?

To be completely honest, I thought the series was locked to both Japan and in the 90s for years until maybe a few years ago? I have been a little interested in giving one of the games a chance, but then a few years ago I could barely afford to buy clothes I needed...

I also never played Banjo Kaazooie. Never thought it was worth my time due to a "It's just one of many Mario 64-like games" mentality.

I saw quite a bit of salt, but it could just be where I'm looking.

Story is basically this:

Consistent localization for the NES days. They weren't the best localizations, but they were there... unfortunately, they didn't do so well in the West.

SNES games (DQV and DQVI) were not localized.  there were some plans for VI (under the number V) but those fell through.

Some localization for the Monsters spinoffs, which is kinda odd for DQM1 since it stars some characters from VI.

VII was in development hell for years before releasing at the tail end of the PS1 lifespan.  It did extremely well in Japan but not so great overseas, it was a quiet release without much fanfare.

VIII is when they got serious.  Massive change in the localization for just about everything (shifting to the puns and accents, changing the spell names to be more onomatopoeia-ish than descriptive ie Blaze became Frizz) and the game was pushed quite a bit.  This was also the first game after SE got the rights to the Dragon Quest name so it was released over here as that instead of Dragon Warrior.

DS had remakes for IV-VI (all localized, though the localized DS version of IV unfortunately cut Party Chat which was used to flesh out the party members for no reason) and IX (also localized).  They did okay?  Not as well as VIII did iirc.

X was never localized.  It is a MMO and I guess they decided the cost to maintain the server wasn't worth it.

There were a bunch of mobile ports localized.  With new titles for II and III and reimplementing party chat in IV.

3DS had remakes of VII and VIII that originally weren't getting localized (or VII remake wasn't), but a massive amount of fan demand got them over, with a brand new localization for VII.

Now we're at XI which didn't have the 3DS version get localized but the PS4 and Switch versions are plus a Steam port.  And this I guess.

 

Also spinoffs are pretty on and off about getting localized.  A particularly notable thing that happened was the west got Joker 2 but not Joker 2 Professional, an updated rerelease from a few months later.

Edited by Glaceon Mage
sth the old spell names are so unmemorable I can't remember them.

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So the Hiiro from Dragon Warrior 1 is not one of the alts, instead only present for the final smash. So this character gets added to my list of smash bros fighters whose games I haven't played. Right there with Wii Fit Trainer, ROB, and Shulk. But perhaps I will remedy this when Dragon Quest 11S comes out. Odd that the Hiiro I know isn't one of the playable ones. That's like if there were no fire emblem characters in smash, but they threw in four that were skins of each other, being Roy, Ike, Lucina, and Alm while missing Marth entirely. Oh well, I can't speak to the popularity of the characters they did pick, but I've seen some upset that the female options for the Hero in DQ3 and 4 didn't get in. They're not even in the final smash unless that pink fairy looking guy is actually female.

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4 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

That's like if there were no fire emblem characters in smash, but they threw in four that were skins of each other, being Roy, Ike, Lucina, and Alm while missing Marth entirely.

DQ3's hero seems to have overtaken DQ1's as the overall series representative, almost guaranteed to be the one to show up in any guest role, reference, or cameo, over the years

Spoiler

Which makes sense given the story of 1, 2, and 3

 

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3 hours ago, Johann said:

Yeah, the lack of female characters (especially main characters) is pretty disappointing. I'd like to think Dixie Kong is a frontrunner for future DLC (if any) or the next game, and most of the others you listed are certainly popular and well-known enough to get people excited, so maybe there's hope eventually. Shame it's probably not anytime soon though.

Don't forget Elma!

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She ain't got no man alive to kiss 'em feet of! A heroine without a hero to overshadow her. For now at least. Hope it stays that way.

Dual Guns and Dual Blades (larger than knives, shorter than longswords), she'd make for a ZSS-Bayonetta-Pit hybrid I think.

Oh yeah, KOS-MOS ain't playable here, the ever-crossing crossover Xenosaga character who is a female android. Also with guns and smalls blades, Elma not a coincidence in weapon choice I think. -But KOS-MOS would be much too boring and expectable to include, and not very Nintendo, since they haven't made a Xenosaga HD Collection yet (perhaps with Episode II modified to how it is in the DS Xenosaga I & II game- if that really is better).

 

2 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

e. Grunty's rhyme's are pretty humerous overall if you ask me,

This reminds me actually, since this game is a British creation, it had be translated into Japanese. And Grunty's language wasn't able to transfer over so well, since it rhyming in Japanese is so easy it isn't a literary technique at all.

Why do I mention this? Because if Japan doesn't love B&K very much, and I don't know if it does or not, then the two character reveals today balance each other. The Far East gets its Hero, and the Far West gets to play with its Banjo. 

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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I'm not into Dragon Quest but hey cool for the fans!

Banjo & Kazooie, on the other hand, I'm definitely excited for. Definitely not my most-wanted character(s), but they're definitely characters I never thought were possible but always thought would be super cool! Seriously all I need is Crash Bandicoot and Lyn and then my MUST HAVE desires for Smash are 100% complete.

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3 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

KOS-MOS would be much too boring and expectable to include

While i wouldn't say boring, i certainly don't want her in Smash that much. Nothing against KOS-MOS, i'd still like to have her in Smash, but after having played the Xenosaga Trilogy, i'd much rather prefer Shion. 

____________________________

Anyway, with Banjo being in Smash, i think we can finally put the whole "relevancy" thing to rest. Banjo hasn't had a game in over a decade but he was still able to make it into Smash wthout fitting the criteria of the retro or joke character.

What i'm saying is Elma still has a good chance (unless it's all third party, which i hope not).

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Thing is, a lot of the value of a character comes from what they bring with them. Dragon Quest and BK bring iconic music and unique stages, as does Persona. This makes them all valuable adds that greatly increase the value and variety of the game. They're great choices as a complete package, whether or not you like the character themselves. I'm not the biggest DQ fan, but I see and appreciate the value of its assets and OST in Smash. Smash is a better game for having DQ in it.

 

The same can't be said for pretty much any first party character whose franchise is already in the game (aka, pretty much any Nintendo franchise that actually matters), and few unrepresented franchises really stack up to these in terms of music quality and iconography. A few potential contenders with comparable musical and stage value could include NieR, The Elder Scrolls, and the Witcher.

Edited by Etheus

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Just now, Armagon said:

While i wouldn't say boring, i certainly don't want her in Smash that much. Nothing against KOS-MOS, i'd still like to have her in Smash, but after having played the Xenosaga Trilogy, i'd much rather prefer Shion. 

____________________________

Anyway, with Banjo being in Smash, i think we can finally put the whole "relevancy" thing to rest. Banjo hasn't had a game in over a decade but he was still able to make it into Smash wthout fitting the criteria of the retro or joke character.

What i'm saying is Elma still has a good chance (unless it's all third party, which i hope not).

Now if only I could play XS and give my own opinion on the bolded. But this seven year old laptop gets hot sometimes just running PSP and SNES games as is. 

 

I hope there is a second Fighter Pass. I mean when you think about it, it is only five additional characters in this one pass- not that many in the scheme of fighting games. Would Smash be harder to program for since you've fewer standard humanoid forms? But Smash, for any technicality it has, is less technical than a real-no-party-game-duality fighting game? Does the already colossal roster so tall I could drop a hammer from the summit and it not hit the ground until two days later, impede Smash from adding more?

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7 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Now if only I could play XS and give my own opinion on the bolded. But this seven year old laptop gets hot sometimes just running PSP and SNES games as is. 

 

I hope there is a second Fighter Pass. I mean when you think about it, it is only five additional characters in this one pass- not that many in the scheme of fighting games. Would Smash be harder to program for since you've fewer standard humanoid forms? But Smash, for any technicality it has, is less technical than a real-no-party-game-duality fighting game? Does the already colossal roster so tall I could drop a hammer from the summit and it not hit the ground until two days later, impede Smash from adding more?

In my opinion, no. Smash is a party game first and a competitive game at a distant second. Balance does not matter, and the value of new characters far exceeds any potential loss of tourney reputation.

 

The real barriers to entry for new characters are 1) the cost vs reward of doing so (not likely an issue given how successful Smash is) and 2) Sakurai's health and workaholism (and let's be real, the health and workaholism of his team). And that second one is a real issue. Our lord and savior is but a man who places far too much responsibility on himself. He needs a nap. 

Edited by Etheus

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13 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Thing is, a lot of the value of a character comes from what they bring with them. Dragon Quest and BK bring iconic music and unique stages, as does Persona. This makes them all valuable adds that greatly increase the value and variety of the game. They're great choices as a complete package, whether or not you like the character themselves. I'm not the biggest DQ fan, but I see and appreciate the value of its assets and OST in Smash. Smash is a better game for having DQ in it.

Oh i totally get that, for me it's just more of a personal thing. I'm not really against any characters joining Smash, i'd just rather see some more than others.

8 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Now if only I could play XS and give my own opinion on the bolded. But this seven year old laptop gets hot sometimes just running PSP and SNES games as is. 

I personally wouldn't worry about it. PS2 Emulation is a pain. My PC can run some PS4-level games (not all of them, it certainly won't be running something like the upcoming Tales of Arise but it can run smaller budget titles like Megadimension Neptunia and the PS4 Trails games, though the latter is just a guess based on what i've seen my PC do). 

And yet, getting it to run the Xenosaga trilogy was a pain. Episode I was actual hell, Episode II ran better (but i just watched the cutscenes, fuck the combat), Episode III ran the best by a significant margin. So the way i see it, unless you have a really good PC, PS2 emulation isn't gonna run as good as you want it to.

 

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26 minutes ago, Armagon said:

And yet, getting it to run the Xenosaga trilogy was a pain. Episode I was actual hell, Episode II ran better (but i just watched the cutscenes, fuck the combat), Episode III ran the best by a significant margin. So the way i see it, unless you have a really good PC, PS2 emulation isn't gonna run as good as you want it to.

 

II's combat was pretty good. I dont understand why people dont appreciate 3rd party characters.

 

35 minutes ago, Etheus said:

Balance does not matter,

Well of course it doesnt U's balance is a total disaster.

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8 minutes ago, Etheus said:

2) Sakurai's health and workaholism (and let's be real, the health and workaholism of his team). And that second one is a real issue. Our lord and savior is but a man who places far too much responsibility on himself. He needs a nap. 

Agreed. Sakurai deserves some rest, some fluids (else he drives himself into needing the intravenous kind), and maybe a good video game from his extraordinary collection. I'd recommend trying a light passion project again, something akin to Kid Icarus: Uprising I speculate was (does anyone know his work habits for this game?), but I hesitate for fear the passion will become The Passion.

And yes, we need remember video games are more than the product of lone individuals- those credits take so long for a reason. Yes, for better or worse individuals can have a monumental impact on a game's final outcome, but a good team is needed to make good idea real.

I don't think Bayonetta 2 or any Devil May Cry after 1 actually had Hideki Kamiya leading the development, but Bayo 2 and DMCs 3-5 are still good so I hear. And then you have the case of Mighty No. 9, where misplaced reverence for one "great" figure led to great disappointment. 

 

28 minutes ago, Armagon said:

I personally wouldn't worry about it. PS2 Emulation is a pain. My PC can run some PS4-level games (not all of them, it certainly won't be running something like the upcoming Tales of Arise but it can run smaller budget titles like Megadimension Neptunia and the PS4 Trails games, though the latter is just a guess based on what i've seen my PC do). 

And yet, getting it to run the Xenosaga trilogy was a pain. Episode I was actual hell, Episode II ran better (but i just watched the cutscenes, fuck the combat), Episode III ran the best by a significant margin. So the way i see it, unless you have a really good PC, PS2 emulation isn't gonna run as good as you want it to.

 

To be fair, I think the issue might be how emulation works. Something to do with bandwidth?

The younger/less old a game system is, the more power it requires to emulate. And this rate of increase from NES to SNES to 64 to Gamecube differs from the rate of power (bandwidth?) increase of newer consoles to emulate. By which I mean if the needs for emulation leap from PS1 games to PS2 games is 20, then the additional emulation power from PS2 to PS3 is only 10 bandwidth (to completely make up numbers here). Going from PS2 to PS3 emulation would increase the resources needed by 40, but you'd still only get an increase of 10 bandwidth going from PS3 to PS4.

Again, I forget exactly how it goes, but I might be getting the spirit of what I read once. Remasters and ports are thereby more viable. You don't need to include the power-intensive "making a piece of technology act like a different piece of technology, while running a program on top of this" aspect of emulation which I guess is a heavy burden on it. A port changes the game to fit the system, not the system, the game.

-So even if you can run the Trails, despite them looking prettier than Xenosaga ever does, this might explain it. Your PC is car, the games its passengers being driven to a destination. With Trails, your PC can floor it because it there is nothing holding it back, Rean and co. are tucked away in the vehicle. But Shion and KOS-MOS refuse to ride in your SUV, and instead insist on remaining in their convertible called a PS2, which you must attach to the back of your PC SUV and drag it along. You can floor it at 60 mph down the freeway singing "Five Fleeting Loves of Five Fabled Feis" with Trails, whereas there is no fun lugging the Xenocovertible and everyone else is passing you wondering why you took the freeway in the first place.

Again, if I understand things right. I could very well not.

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47 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I hope there is a second Fighter Pass.

I expect this game to have a long tail of DLC and updates; the Switch is only two years old and there's almost certainly not going to be another Smash game on the system. Heck, a lot about how it was originally announced gave me vibes of it being the "final" Smash game. Of course it won't be, but I wouldn't be shocked if the followup takes a "back to basics" route of some sort, because this huge scope would be outrageous to do again — incremental changes over time via updates and DLC are way less intensive.

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22 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

II's combat was pretty good.

I too like fighting regular enemies that take 10 eons to die.

23 minutes ago, lightcosmo said:

I dont understand why people dont appreciate 3rd party characters.

I never said i didn't, i'd just prefer it if the entire DLC lineup wasn't third party.

18 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

The younger/less old a game system is, the more power it requires to emulate. And this rate of increase from NES to SNES to 64 to Gamecube differs from the rate of power (bandwidth?) increase of newer consoles to emulate. By which I mean if the needs for emulation leap from PS1 games to PS2 games is 20, then the additional emulation power from PS2 to PS3 is only 10 bandwidth (to completely make up numbers here). Going from PS2 to PS3 emulation would increase the resources needed by 40, but you'd still only get an increase of 10 bandwidth going from PS3 to PS4.

Again, I forget exactly how it goes, but I might be getting the spirit of what I read once. Remasters and ports are thereby more viable. You don't need to include the power-intensive "making a piece of technology act like a different piece of technology, while running a program on top of this" aspect of emulation which I guess is a heavy burden on it. A port changes the game to fit the system, not the system, the game.

-So even if you can run the Trails, despite them looking prettier than Xenosaga ever does, this might explain it. Your PC is car, the games its passengers being driven to a destination. With Trails, your PC can floor it because it there is nothing holding it back, Rean and co. are tucked away in the vehicle. But Shion and KOS-MOS refuse to ride in your SUV, and instead insist on remaining in their convertible called a PS2, which you must attach to the back of your PC SUV and drag it along. You can floor it at 60 mph down the freeway singing "Five Fleeting Loves of Five Fabled Feis" with Trails, whereas there is no fun lugging the Xenocovertible and everyone else is passing you wondering why you took the freeway in the first place.

Again, if I understand things right. I could very well not.

I don't know if that's how it works at all but that analogy is genuinely hilarious so thank you for that. Though my PS1 and PSP emulators run fine, if you're right, that's because PS1 and PSP aren't as powerful as the PS2 (i think the PSP isn't as powerful as the PS2, i could be very wrong), therefore, my PC spends less power getting them to work.

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Yikes, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who believes there won't be a second fighter pass (though I'm sure I'm not), especially after Sakurai made that comment about how it's sometimes better to just make a new game instead of adding to an existing one.

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3 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Don't forget Elma!

I could never! But at this point, it would be shocking to see her added unless they did further DLC or something. With two slots left, the other 3 DLC characters being 3rd party, and her being in as a spirit already, the odds are as slim as it gets.

44 minutes ago, Florete said:

Yikes, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who believes there won't be a second fighter pass (though I'm sure I'm not), especially after Sakurai made that comment about how it's sometimes better to just make a new game instead of adding to an existing one.

I doubt there will as well, but I guess it's really up to Nintendo doing a CBA between working on DLC or the next game. Something like an Echo Pack sounds a bit more realistic, if still overall unlikely.

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5 hours ago, lightcosmo said:

Well of course it doesnt U's balance is a total disaster.

Ultimate's balance is the best we've seen since 64 lmao what are you going on about, and considering we have 70ish characters that's pretty impressive. Sure we have outliers, but we have tons of results for most characters.

Plus I don't think you play anywhere near a competitive level so you can't talk anything about balance. Tiers mean absolutely nothing until the absolute highest level of possible play and even then player skill still can dictate who wins and who loses (and usually does).

Edited by Jedi

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13 hours ago, Jedi said:

Ultimate's balance is the best we've seen since 64 lmao what are you going on about, and considering we have 70ish characters that's pretty impressive. Sure we have outliers, but we have tons of results for most characters.

Plus I don't think you play anywhere near a competitive level so you can't talk anything about balance. Tiers mean absolutely nothing until the absolute highest level of possible play and even then player skill still can dictate who wins and who loses (and usually does).

You know, the "best" doesn't mean much when they are all pretty much awful. Heck, i'd be ashamed to compare to Smash 4 in balance. I can tell you 100% that adding pretty much no landing lag across the board was a terrible idea, where is the decision making now? it's all brain dead, back air or nair approaches and in some cases unescapeable infinites since the DI in U is total crap. there is no creativity. And besides, pretty sure most attacks that were broken in smash 4, stayed that way (yes there are few exceptions). And most characters don't even have to aim attacks, I know, I play Lucina in U, so don't say I don't know. There is no effort in learning the game, it's pickup and win and then there is the small hard to learn cast of characters that gets left behind. I don't recall referring to tiers at all in my posts? All I said was " U's balance is terrible", thank you. Sure player skill is important, but there is a reason characters like Lucina are played so often/win so often. Simply put, the statistics aren't fair, of course they aren't things like dolphin slash are 100% free recoveries, not sure how that's "balanced" at all. then you have characters like Link's recovery... which is pathetic, not that this game is the only guilty one for these things mind you, but they should have fixed stuff like frame one I frames, how stupid was that?. And it shows by which character can actually put some wins on the board. And lets face the fact that the game highly supports rushdown characters simply because the games engine is that way. And does Nintendo understand that fast characters should be weaker? It's not the hardest concept to understand yet, you can look up stats and see it's not even close. Cause with Marth's speed and range, he should probably be a lot weaker to balance it out, yet he's really not at all, not to mention the absurd recovery defense issue, which isn't fair. Also, for the record, I didn't even say I believed in tier lists, since people simply rate characters better cause a good player wins with them. Also, really kind of you too assume i'm terrible at the game, which i'm not, since I've played other people a lot, and a lot of them have said I should compete, which i suppose means your wrong in assuming i'm awful at the game.

EDIT: This is a great way to argue your case, by the way. Just state i'm wrong with no facts at all. What's next,  gonna say I don't know how to play? Petty argument right here.

18 hours ago, Armagon said:

I too like fighting regular enemies that take 10 eons to die.

I never said i didn't, i'd just prefer it if the entire DLC lineup wasn't third party.

Yeah, but I enjoyed it for some reason, it's not for everyone, I can agree with that.

Sorry, that wasn't directed at you. I meant generally, sorry for that misconception.

Edited by lightcosmo

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On 6/11/2019 at 10:49 PM, Florete said:

Yikes, sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who believes there won't be a second fighter pass (though I'm sure I'm not), especially after Sakurai made that comment about how it's sometimes better to just make a new game instead of adding to an existing one.

It's more that a lot of us want there to be more than one; the more, the merrier as they say, and more slots means more chances for the fighter we really want to appear.

Konami, Capcom, and Square all have more than one series represented now. I'd say it's SEGA's turn to add somebody. Question is, who? After Sonic, what SEGA franchise is notable enough to warrant inclusion in Smash? Although, Atlus is apparently a subsidiary of SEGA, so I guess that effectively makes Joker SEGA Rep #2.

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On 6/13/2019 at 11:16 PM, Lord_Brand said:

It's more that a lot of us want there to be more than one; the more, the merrier as they say, and more slots means more chances for the fighter we really want to appear.

Konami, Capcom, and Square all have more than one series represented now. I'd say it's SEGA's turn to add somebody. Question is, who? After Sonic, what SEGA franchise is notable enough to warrant inclusion in Smash? Although, Atlus is apparently a subsidiary of SEGA, so I guess that effectively makes Joker SEGA Rep #2.

Isn't Valkyria Chronicles made by SEGA? That series is notable enough. The game having guns would be an issue though.

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On 6/13/2019 at 8:16 PM, Lord_Brand said:

It's more that a lot of us want there to be more than one; the more, the merrier as they say, and more slots means more chances for the fighter we really want to appear.

Konami, Capcom, and Square all have more than one series represented now. I'd say it's SEGA's turn to add somebody. Question is, who? After Sonic, what SEGA franchise is notable enough to warrant inclusion in Smash? Although, Atlus is apparently a subsidiary of SEGA, so I guess that effectively makes Joker SEGA Rep #2.

Well, if we don’t count Bayonetta or Joker as SEGA reps, then maybe a character like Arle Nadia from the Puyo Puyo series?

Edited by Perkilator

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So after some thinking, I believe the Hero will come out in mid-July, kind of like how Joker came out in mid-April.

And speaking of DLC fighters, it’s a shame we dint get to fight them in Challenger’s Approach.

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3 hours ago, Perkilator said:

So after some thinking, I believe the Hero will come out in mid-July, kind of like how Joker came out in mid-April.

I wouldn’t be surprised if it wound up being September 22nd, to be honest. Gives ‘em time to iron out as many kinks as possible.

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