Character-specific promotions

[Corrobin]

Okay, let's change topics, since this turned into an indictment of Miranda (and Machua to a lesser extent).

Sage has been nerfed over the years and Mage Knight/Dark Knight is a perfectly viable option as of Fates.

Provided that the game tells you in advance what characters promote into what classes, I think that it could encourage class variety and provide more character. Miranda is just in an unfortunate spot merely due to being in Staff Emblem.

If, in a future FE game that had balanced Staffs (as well as fixing a few other problems with FE5) and used more modern mechanics, it's very likely Miranda (or a character like her) could be very good.

[Shadow Mir]

52 minutes ago, Corrobin said:

Okay, let's change topics, since this turned into an indictment of Miranda (and Machua to a lesser extent).

Sage has been nerfed over the years and Mage Knight/Dark Knight is a perfectly viable option as of Fates.

Provided that the game tells you in advance what characters promote into what classes, I think that it could encourage class variety and provide more character. Miranda is just in an unfortunate spot merely due to being in Staff Emblem.

If, in a future FE game that had balanced Staffs (as well as fixing a few other problems with FE5) and used more modern mechanics, it's very likely Miranda (or a character like her) could be very good.

It's not just that - it's also that hybrid physical/magic classes tend to wind up in an extremely awkward position balance wise. For both options to be meaningful, you need both strength and magic to be high. Guess what tends to not be the case for most units. Speaking of Fates, Malig Knight, Basara, and Oni Chieftain have it especially bad. The former is a promotion of Wyvern Rider - a physical class. All the units that start in the Wyvern Rider line lean heavily towards being physical, both in terms of growths and bases. In that case, what good am I getting from tomes when I'm always doing less damage than I would be with axes??? The latter two are no better with regard to avoiding this. The Spear Fighters you get have a big fat goose egg for magic, and a rather low magic growth (unless you have someone like Orochi mother Shiro, but that is likely to compromise him as a unit). And the Diviners you get lean heavily towards being magic units (only Hayato has a decent strength growth out of the three you get). Once again, the other weapon type would likely wind up being irrelevant for a Basara. Rinkah is in much the same position... or would be if she wasn't such a statistical eunuch, rather. And even then, Oni Savage leans heavily towards being a physical class. Guess what this means? That's right, Oni Chieftain's tome rank is highly likely to go unused.

TLDR version: Hybrid physical/magic classes are awkward to implement, and very few units can work well as one.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Corrobin]

1 minute ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

It's not just that - it's also that hybrid physical/magic classes tend to wind up in an extremely awkward position balance wise. For both options to be meaningful, you need both strength and magic to be high. Guess what tends to not be the case for most units. Speaking of Fates, Malig Knight, Basara, and Oni Chieftain have it especially bad. The former is a promotion of Wyvern Rider - a physical class. All the units that start in the Wyvern Rider line lean heavily towards being physical, both in terms of growths and bases. In that case, what good am I getting from tomes when I'm always doing less damage than I would be with axes??? The latter two are no better with regard to avoiding this. The Spear Fighters you get have a big fat goose egg for magic, and a rather low magic growth (unless you have someone like Orochi mother Shiro, but that is likely to compromise him as a unit). And the Diviners you get lean heavily towards being magic units (only Hayato has a decent strength growth out of the three you get). Once again, the other weapon type would likely wind up being irrelevant for a Basara. Rinkah is in much the same position... or would be if she wasn't such a statistical eunuch, rather. And even then, Oni Savage leans heavily towards being a physical class. Guess what this means? That's right, Oni Chieftain's tome rank is highly likely to go unused.

TLDR version: Hybrid classes are awkward to implement, and very few units can work well as one.

But Leo is good

And also, the custom promotions I mentioned don't have any hybrid classes:

Cleric -> Sage/Druid

Archer -> Warrior

Pirate -> Hero

Monk -> FE8 Valkyrie

Cleric/Troubadour -> Whatever the name of the Peg Knight with Staves is

Mercenary -> Swordmaster

Fighter -> Berserker

[Eden Agleam]

Ultimately, I would love to see them back. I loved the sheer amount of possibilities that they provided for character identity, and I personally prefer them to the reclassing method. It also allows for niches to be more defined. Of course, they would have to be balanced accordingly, but all additions made to gameplay would have to. It wouldn't be particularly hard to do so if the time was put into it. It also gives reasons to use certain characters if they come in later or with odd stat lines. 

Also, I have a problem with disliking a mechanic because you believe that IS cannot do it right. Not only does one's opinion of IS's competency not matter to the discussion at all, it also contributes nothing to the discussion. So what if you don't have a high opinion of IS? It doesn't particularly matter to a discussion of a hypothetical idea. 

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Corrobin said:

But Leo is good

And also, the custom promotions I mentioned don't have any hybrid classes:

Cleric -> Sage/Druid

Archer -> Warrior

Pirate -> Hero

Monk -> FE8 Valkyrie

Cleric/Troubadour -> Whatever the name of the Peg Knight with Staves is

Mercenary -> Swordmaster

Fighter -> Berserker

And Leo is only one unit.

Perhaps, but I honestly see the fourth one as extremely unlikely unless you had female Monks. And the first one already happened in both Awakening and Fates (or at least the Sage part of it did). And I see the hybrid conundrum as relevant because the complaints about Miranda were in part because she's forced into a hybrid class and doesn't have the stats for it.

1 hour ago, Shimmerfang said:

Ultimately, I would love to see them back. I loved the sheer amount of possibilities that they provided for character identity, and I personally prefer them to the reclassing method. It also allows for niches to be more defined. Of course, they would have to be balanced accordingly, but all additions made to gameplay would have to. It wouldn't be particularly hard to do so if the time was put into it. It also gives reasons to use certain characters if they come in later or with odd stat lines. 

Also, I have a problem with disliking a mechanic because you believe that IS cannot do it right. Not only does one's opinion of IS's competency not matter to the discussion at all, it also contributes nothing to the discussion. So what if you don't have a high opinion of IS? It doesn't particularly matter to a discussion of a hypothetical idea. 

And I honestly see the negative as far outshining the positive. As far as I'm concerned, this means IS gets free reign to screw over units as they please.

It's called being pragmatic. Look it up, please and thank you.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Corrobin]

31 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

It's called being pragmatic. Look it up, please and thank you.

It's called being optimistic. Look it up, please and thank you.

[Shadow Mir]

11 minutes ago, Corrobin said:

It's called being optimistic. Look it up, please and thank you.

Because it isn't like I have any reasons to choose cynicism over idealism, right? Oh, wait. It is. And that's why we're here. The days where I could try to see the best in everything are a thing of the past. Forever. I've instead come to the realization that sometimes there is no best to see. Like here.

Edited May 1, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Corrobin]

1 minute ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Because it isn't like I have any reasons to choose cynicism over idealism, right? Oh, wait. It is. And that's why we're here. The days where I could try to see the best in everything are a thing of the past. Forever. I've instead come to the realization that sometimes there is no best to see. Like here.

Tell that to every FE5 fan, ever.

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, Corrobin said:

Tell that to every FE5 fan, ever.

Well... I have said this in other threads, and maybe even here, but I don't see the good in unique promotions because of class disparity. Who do you think is going to be better if one archer promotes to sniper, and another becomes a bow knight? If you guessed the one that promotes to bow knight, you win the grand prize! Basically, I reject the idea because IS doesn't always make good balancing decisions - who's to say they won't make other units that get shafted like poor little Miranda was in Thracia???

Edited May 1, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Emperor Hardin]

12 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Well... I have said this in other threads, and maybe even here, but I don't see the good in unique promotions because of class disparity. Who do you think is going to be better if one archer promotes to sniper, and another becomes a bow knight? If you guessed the one that promotes to bow knight, you win the grand prize! Basically, I reject the idea because IS doesn't always make good balancing decisions - who's to say they won't make other units that get shafted like poor little Miranda was in Thracia???

Miranda was bad due to entirely different factors.

[Corrobin]

Staffs are a lot less broken now than in FE5, and not having them now is not an irredimable sin against a character.

Class promotion bonuses are a lot more well-balanced, especially for Saves.

Those are things that people can agree have been fixed post FE5, and so, if a character like Miranda were to appear in FE16, she'd probably be a lot better.

And not to mention that promotions are only part of the equation. What if said Bow Knight-promoting unit you mentioned only gets a skill like Adept or Prayer, while the Sniper promote gets Luna? What if the Sniper has crazy high Attack, Speed and Skill while the Bow Knight has more average growths? What if the Sniper gets a good personal weapon while the Bow Knight will have to make due with basic weapons in endgame like Brave, Silver or Killer Bows?

[Emperor Hardin]

Just now, Corrobin said:

Staffs are a lot less broken now than in FE5, and not having them now is not an irredimable sin against a character.

Class promotion bonuses are a lot more well-balanced, especially for Saves.

Those are things that people can agree have been fixed post FE5, and so, if a character like Miranda were to appear in FE16, she'd probably be a lot better.

And not to mention that promotions are only part of the equation. What if said Bow Knight-promoting unit you mentioned only gets a skill like Adept or Prayer, while the Sniper promote gets Luna? What if the Sniper has crazy high Attack, Speed and Skill while the Bow Knight has more average growths? What if the Sniper gets a good personal weapon while the Bow Knight will have to make due with basic weapons in endgame like Brave, Silver or Killer Bows?

Kinda like how in Tearring Saga, the Knight that promoted to a mounted unit had lower growths and less skills then the Knight who promoted to General.

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Miranda was bad due to entirely different factors.

That's true, but her promotion didn't help since it gave her a weapon type she has no practical use for - and her growths don't support her being able to use said weapon type.

5 hours ago, Corrobin said:

Staffs are a lot less broken now than in FE5, and not having them now is not an irredimable sin against a character.

Class promotion bonuses are a lot more well-balanced, especially for Saves.

Those are things that people can agree have been fixed post FE5, and so, if a character like Miranda were to appear in FE16, she'd probably be a lot better.

And not to mention that promotions are only part of the equation. What if said Bow Knight-promoting unit you mentioned only gets a skill like Adept or Prayer, while the Sniper promote gets Luna? What if the Sniper has crazy high Attack, Speed and Skill while the Bow Knight has more average growths? What if the Sniper gets a good personal weapon while the Bow Knight will have to make due with basic weapons in endgame like Brave, Silver or Killer Bows?

True enough. Unfortunately, we're talking about developers who prefer to be too faithful to their games to the point that the remakes of said games suffer, if Shadow Dragon is any indication... and also have a penchant for pulling inane bullshit like giving Tharja two physical reclass options or giving Elise Wyvern Rider for her Heart Seal option for suits and giggles.

I'd say the Sniper would still get the short end of the stick because, as we all know, "Bow lock bad!". It IS the main reason why most archers tend to not be given the time of day, after all...

Edited May 2, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Emperor Hardin]

9 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

True enough. Unfortunately, we're talking about developers who prefer to be too faithful to their games to the point that the remakes of said games suffer, if Shadow Dragon is any indication...

Despite being made on a lower budget, Shadow Dragon did far more to improve the gameplay of the original FE1 then Echoes: SOV did to improve the gameplay of FE2.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Emperor Hardin

[Corrobin]

10 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

True enough. Unfortunately, we're talking about developers who prefer to be too faithful to their games to the point that the remakes of said games suffer, if Shadow Dragon is any indication... and also have a penchant for pulling inane bullshit like giving Tharja two physical reclass options or giving Elise Wyvern Rider for her Heart Seal option for suits and giggles.

I'd say the Sniper would still get the short end of the stick because, as we all know, "Bow lock bad!". It IS the main reason why most archers tend to not be given the time of day, after all...

But it at least evens the playing field somewhat. And I will admit that I actually don't mind using Archers/Snipers because I like their characters.

Let's say, for instance, that there is Archer that becomes a Warrior. How, exactly, does losing their bow lock and getting hard-hitting Axes hurt them?

How exactly does a high crit, Speed and evasion Myrmidon getting the super-strong Axes that also have higher than normal crit rates as well as a decent Defense boost when they promote to Hero hurt them?

How does a Cleric getting a Pegasus allowing them bigger range of people to heal hurt people hurt them?

[Shadow Mir]

42 minutes ago, Corrobin said:

But it at least evens the playing field somewhat. And I will admit that I actually don't mind using Archers/Snipers because I like their characters.

Let's say, for instance, that there is Archer that becomes a Warrior. How, exactly, does losing their bow lock and getting hard-hitting Axes hurt them?

How exactly does a high crit, Speed and evasion Myrmidon getting the super-strong Axes that also have higher than normal crit rates as well as a decent Defense boost when they promote to Hero hurt them?

How does a Cleric getting a Pegasus allowing them bigger range of people to heal hurt people hurt them?

Very easily, if axes are bad enough (see: FE6) or if the con system becomes relevant again, since most archers have little in the way of Con.

See above. Most myrmidons don't really have good Con scores... and I'd say Machua already proved this. It doesn't help that axe accuracy in Thracia was crap for the most part.

Because while they gain the ability to fight, now they're forced into using physical weapons, which they might not have the stats to use well...

[Corrobin]

2 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Very easily, if axes are bad enough (see: FE6) or if the con system becomes relevant again, since most archers have little in the way of Con.

See above. Most myrmidons don't really have good Con scores... and I'd say Machua already proved this. It doesn't help that axe accuracy in Thracia was crap for the most part.

Because while they gain the ability to fight, now they're forced into using physical weapons, which they might not have the stats to use well...

Axes are good in Fates. They've learned from FE4 and 6.

Bolt Naginata (or it's equivalent) to deal magic damage.

[Shadow Mir]

16 minutes ago, Corrobin said:

Axes are good in Fates. They've learned from FE4 and 6.

Bolt Naginata (or it's equivalent) to deal magic damage.

And yet they insist on churning out garbage like Charlotte and Arthur, which makes me question that... and the fact that they thought garbage like Beruka's Axe and the "Great" Club was anything resembling a good idea does not do them any favors whatsoever.

You mean the Bolt Naginata they likely would need to grind weapon ranks to get to use? That one? Also, assuming that Fates' abandoning durability doesn't get retained, this means they're most likely relying on a rare weapon to do anything. Not good.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Corrobin]

15 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

And yet they insist on churning out garbage like Charlotte and Arthur, which makes me question that... and the fact that they thought garbage like Beruka's Axe and the "Great" Club was anything resembling a good idea does not do them any favors whatsoever.

You mean the Bolt Naginata they likely would need to grind weapon ranks to get to use? That one? Also, assuming that Fates' abandoning durability doesn't get retained, this means they're most likely relying on a rare weapon to do anything. Not good.

Units =/= weapons. Beruka and Camilla are good axe users, and my Hero Selena was also good.

Clerics have good Res. Mages have bad Defense. Promoted Peg Cleric can use a basic Iron Lance on squishy mages for decent damage to raise their weapon rank.

[Shrimpica]

11 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

- and her growths don't support her being able to use said weapon type.

Magic swords are a thing, and Magic Knights, Troubadours and Karin are the only ones who can use them effectively.

11 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Elise Wyvern Rider for her Heart Seal option

You don't want a flying Magical Nuke? Malig Knight Elise doesn'T sound half bad.

 

1 hour ago, Corrobin said:

How, exactly, does losing their bow lock and getting hard-hitting Axes hurt them?

Weapon Rank and Accuracry. Axes usually aren't the most accurate weapons, except if it's pugi or you are in Tellius.

27 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

and I'd say Machua already proved this.

:thinking:

BLD growth exists for a reason. I hate the con System myself, but BLD growths really fixes this imo.

27 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

It doesn't help that axe accuracy in Thracia was crap for the most part.

tbf, most non-prf weapons have crap accuracy in Thracia (not as bad as FE6, but FE6 is in a different level of bad), and the Iron axe is cheap, can be found everywhere, and has the same stats as a Steel sword (which is much more rare). I let Machua run around with Iron Axes after promo all the time.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Shrimperor

[Von Ithipathachai]

17 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

Magic swords are a thing, and Mage Knights, Troubadours and Karin are the only ones who can use them effectively.

...Except that Miranda has to grind her Sword Rank from D up to B after promoting to even be able to use them.  And physical combat isn't exactly her forte.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Von Ithipathachai

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Corrobin said:

Units =/= weapons. Beruka and Camilla are good axe users, and my Hero Selena was also good.

Clerics have good Res. Mages have bad Defense. Promoted Peg Cleric can use a basic Iron Lance on squishy mages for decent damage to raise their weapon rank.

I'll give you that units != weapons, but if they can't give me good axe units, I just get disinclined to bother with them. There's a reason I only bother with Camilla for axes in Fates (or Scarlet in Birthright). And I'm not sold on Beruka being good.

Except mages are a minority in the enemy forces, as opposed to the physical units they'd struggle to so much as dent.

1 hour ago, Shrimperor said:

You don't want a flying Magical Nuke? Malig Knight Elise doesn'T sound half bad.

Except I'd likely have to wait until promotion because the Wyvern Rider Phase is AWFUL. So no. It ain't worth it.

1 hour ago, Shrimperor said:

:thinking:

BLD growth exists for a reason. I hate the con System myself, but BLD growths really fixes this imo.

I wouldn't be too sure of that... most growths would be rather low, especially for female units.

1 hour ago, Shrimperor said:

Magic swords are a thing, and Magic Knights, Troubadours and Karin are the only ones who can use them effectively.

Unfortunately for you, I already had said something about that:

On 5/1/2018 at 9:20 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Because it's not like the rate of weapon exp gain is glacial and she's going to be doing next to no damage with swords. Oh wait, it is. The magic swords are all B rank, and she starts with a lousy D. Have fun with that!

Enough said.

12 hours ago, Emperor Hardin said:

Despite being made on a lower budget, Shadow Dragon did far more to improve the gameplay of the original FE1 then Echoes: SOV did to improve the gameplay of FE2.

I would strongly disagree - some of SD's changes arguably hurt the game, and a lot of the new stuff felt rather poorly implemented.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Corrobin]

Wait, you know what?

All your arguments can be dismissed with "but this is all hypothetical".

You can't argue about a game that doesn't exist yet.

[Shadow Mir]

9 minutes ago, Corrobin said:

Wait, you know what?

All your arguments can be dismissed with "but this is all hypothetical".

You can't argue about a game that doesn't exist yet.

Then why'd you bother making this thread in the first place? Because I could just as easily nullify your arguments by playing the "but this is hypothetical" card. Anyway, I don't see what's hypothetical about mages being a minority in the enemy army - it's held true for pretty much every FE game.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Von Ithipathachai]

3 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Then why'd you bother making this thread in the first place?

He made the thread to get our opinions on the use of character-specific promotions, before it got derailed into an argument about whether or not they should return.

Edited May 2, 2018 by Von Ithipathachai