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Dean

Conquest tiering discussion

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Hi friends and enemies,

 

I know that deep down we all love tiering discussions, and with the Fire Emblem subreddit preparing to re-tier Conquest I thought this was an appropriate time to open this thread.

The format being used:

Units are placed in one of six tiers (S, A, B, C, D, E). Units are not ordered within tiers.

 

Tier descriptions:

S (fantastic): Almost always very useful, with very few to no flaws. They may also provide a valuable niche, or just perform what they do the best. They make important contributions during a majority of the game.

A (great): Very useful alotta the time, with a couple minor detriments that don’t really hold them back. They may fill a good niche or perform what they do splendidly. They make important contributions during most of the game, and are still valuable in maps where they aren’t terribly important.

B (good): Pretty useful, with some minor detriments that hold them back somewhat. They may fill a niche, but someone might do it better, and they can perform well if given the opportunity. They make important contributions in a good amount of maps, and can be useful in others, but they may not be useful in some maps as well.

C (AOK): Can be useful, with detriments that hold them back. They might fill a niche, even if its not useful, and they can perform decently if given the investment. They make important contributions in some maps, but aren’t very important for a majority of the game.

D (iffy): Not all that useful, with possible major detriments holding them back. They do not fill any required niches and take more investing than most to perform adequately or not all that solidly. There are significant parts of the game where they do not contribute meaningfully, but there are a few areas that they can be useful in.

E (lame): Substantially worse than the rest of the cast. There are very few places where they are actually useful, and they can be actively difficult units to use effectively.

 

Caveats:

Game is played on Lunatic, Classic.

Jakob and Felicia are each tiered twice (once for early-joining and once for late-joining).

Mozu, Flora and Izana are tiered as if they join as early as they can.

Recruitment cost is not factored in to a unit's position.

Child units are not tiered.

The game counts as starting from Branch of Fate (chapter 6). Unit contributions prior to this point are not counted towards tier position.

DLC (including free DLC), path bonuses, visitor items and battle items are not included. Fighting in online castles is not included.

 

Units to be tiered:

Quote

Corrin

Felicia 1

Jakob 1

Silas

Elise

Effie

Arthur

Mozu

Odin

Niles

Azura

Nyx

Camilla

Selena

Beruka

Kaze

Laslow

Peri

Charlotte

Benny

Leo

Keaton

Gunter

Jakob 2

Felicia 2

Xander

Shura

Flora

Izana

Discussion points:

  • Visiting online castles. Banned? Allowed fully? Allowed with restrictions?
  • Optional maps (paralogues, invasions).
    • Are they considered to be done? Skipped?
    • Does a units performance within a paralogue affect their tier position?
    • Are fathers credited for the loot obtained within a paralogue?
  • How fast is 'efficient'?

 

 

Current list:

S: Corrin, Jakob 1, Niles, Azura, Camilla

A: Silas, Kaze, Xander

B: Felicia 1, Elise, Odin, Beruka, Leo

C: Effie, Arthur, Selena, Laslow, Peri, Gunter, Felicia 2, Izana

D: Nyx, Charlotte, Benny, Keaton, Jakob 2, Shura, Flora

E: Mozu

Feel free to @ me if you want anything explained!

 

Link to the previous tier list for reference: https://www.reddit.com/r/fireemblem/comments/5i8899/rfireemblem_made_a_fates_conquest_tier_list_20/

Average stat calculator: http://zekareisoujin.github.io/FEFatesStatCalc/

Enemy stats: https://www.dropbox.com/s/81z5gox8nj5oxyd/Fates enemy stats (lunatic).xlsx?dl=0

Edited by Dean

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First impressions:

-Leo and Beruka too high
-Effie and Elise are too low
-You are criminally undervaluing Benny and Keaton


(I slept on Ketaon at first too, thinking he must be crap because he's melee locked and his join time is kinda bad for an unpromoted unit. Then I used him. He's a really good frontline beater and damage sponge--his HP / Strength / Spd / Def spread is kinda nuts) 

 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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Early join time Jakob should be an S due to how absolutely incredible paladin/great knight Jakob is if reclassed immediately upon recruitment at the time.

Due to his bases, he effectively becomes a Jagen and is a huge help, especially on Lunatic. Even after he falls off, he can act as a fantastic pair up bot for  female Corn throughout the rest of the game.

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1 hour ago, CatManThree said:

Early join time Jakob should be an S due to how absolutely incredible paladin/great knight Jakob is if reclassed immediately upon recruitment at the time.

Due to his bases, he effectively becomes a Jagen and is a huge help, especially on Lunatic. Even after he falls off, he can act as a fantastic pair up bot for  female Corn throughout the rest of the game.

Fair enough. I was conflicted between S and A at first, mainly for seal competition and being dependent on Corrin marriage for access to his best classes. But there probably isn't that much competition for early seals (especially if online shops are allowed) and even as Paladin the extent to which he outclasses every non-Camilla early-joining unit is absurd. I'll move him to S.

 

3 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

First impressions:

-Leo and Beruka too high
-Effie and Elise are too low
-You are criminally undervaluing Benny and Keaton


(I slept on Ketaon at first too, thinking he must be crap because he's melee locked and his join time is kinda bad for an unpromoted unit. Then I used him. He's a really good frontline beater and damage sponge--his HP / Strength / Spd / Def spread is kinda nuts) 

 

If you have time, I wouldn't mind a bit more explanation on some of these. From my point of view:

  • I could see Leo in B (being a tier ahead of Silas might be kind of strange), but at this stage I'm happy with him in A. He pretty much mandates a speed pair-up, but otherwise hits very solid offence / bulk / movement parameters. On the other hand, a lot of mid-game maps are not very kind to either mages or cavalry...
  • Beruka has workable offensive stats and can fly without any seals. I think she's a step above the units in C at the moment.
  • I don't think Effie is very good - seems very reliant on early promotion. Silas seems like a better version except for a few points of defence, and I think for the most part your units aren't really struggling for defence; so it would be weird for them to be in the same tier.
  • Benny seems to lack good movement / offences (outside of Beast Killer) to be moved higher; similar to Effie, there are units that can reach appropriate defensive thresholds while also hitting good offensive ones as well. Keaton's probably not dissimilar; he does out-stat a lot of units but I'm not sure that's enough to make up for the shortcomings of being a dog. Lower availability compared to the units above him doesn't help.

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21 minutes ago, Dean said:

Fair enough. I was conflicted between S and A at first, mainly for seal competition and being dependent on Corrin marriage for access to his best classes. But there probably isn't that much competition for early seals (especially if online shops are allowed) and even as Paladin the extent to which he outclasses every non-Camilla early-joining unit is absurd. I'll move him to S.

 

If you have time, I wouldn't mind a bit more explanation on some of these. From my point of view:

  • I could see Leo in B (being a tier ahead of Silas might be kind of strange), but at this stage I'm happy with him in A. He pretty much mandates a speed pair-up, but otherwise hits very solid offence / bulk / movement parameters. On the other hand, a lot of mid-game maps are not very kind to either mages or cavalry...
  • Beruka has workable offensive stats and can fly without any seals. I think she's a step above the units in C at the moment.
  • I don't think Effie is very good - seems very reliant on early promotion. Silas seems like a better version except for a few points of defence, and I think for the most part your units aren't really struggling for defence; so it would be weird for them to be in the same tier.
  • Benny seems to lack good movement / offences (outside of Beast Killer) to be moved higher; similar to Effie, there are units that can reach appropriate defensive thresholds while also hitting good offensive ones as well. Keaton's probably not dissimilar; he does out-stat a lot of units but I'm not sure that's enough to make up for the shortcomings of being a dog. Lower availability compared to the units above him doesn't help.

I'll give a deeper write up when I have time to sit down and collect my thoughts, but for now I'm really curious to hear why you don't think Elise is S-tier

Early join Staffbot on a horse with a passive +1/-3 to damage dealt and damage taken  for anything next to her (Thats HUGE in the earlygame--the difference in tanking capacity you get by placing units next to her and grabbing that buff. Best personal skill in Conquest IMO).

....then an addition -2 to damage taken for any nearby male units after a few level ups...

...then massive offensive presence on promotion with just plain E Rank tomes courtesy of outrageous magic and usable speed...

...then another another +2/-2 passive AoE buff skill at level 15...
_________ 

Theres never a point in the game where she isn't fantastic.

The heals and the passive buffs on top of passive buffs on top of passive buffs alone would make her a top tier support unit if she had zero offensive potential--that + the fact that shes eventually going to turn into a nuclear warhead is the stuff of S-Tier.

Yeahhhhhh--she's disgustingly frail. So is Azura (another S-Tier)

Elise is just marginally behind dancer-level in the amount of utility and team support she brings to your line-up. And she has a horse. And eventually she nukes things.

 S-Tier. 
 

Edited by Shoblongoo

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I would say that the benefits a given Paralogue offer absolutely should factor into a units ranking since Conquest is the most restrictive route. I would also say that capturable bosses should be included since the Conquest ones actually bring unique strategic options to the table and Capture is the largest reason for Niles to be A ranked. Otherwise his biggest advantages are speed and resistance which Kaze does just as well with better hit rates.

I would move Xander down to A. His sword is a better unit than he is. Elise would go up to A and Leo is a solid B. For my controversial statement, I would put Odin at B as well. It's trivial to feed him a few levels in 8, 9 and P1. He's your best counter to the archers in 10 and 11, he can nearly solo the right side of 12 and he does well against the knights and cavaliers in 13. Early promoted in 14 and he'll be equal or better than Leo with an actual speed stat and Brinhyldr isn't worth the extra rank. Odin is also the best Nosferatu user. It's been nerfed to hell but it still puts in solid work.

Effie, Beruka and Silas are roughly the same. In any other class Effie will be the fastest of the 3 and she and Beruka have better personal skills. Solid B for all 3.

Benny should be C. With the beast killer he can solo Kitsune Lair, but otherwise all he has for him is defense. He would probably be a better Fighter than Arthur.

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12 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

First impressions:

-Leo and Beruka too high
-Effie and Elise are too low
-You are criminally undervaluing Benny and Keaton


(I slept on Ketaon at first too, thinking he must be crap because he's melee locked and his join time is kinda bad for an unpromoted unit. Then I used him. He's a really good frontline beater and damage sponge--his HP / Strength / Spd / Def spread is kinda nuts) 

 

When do you play Keaton? I generally see other units as a better option for the role he would be playing. Or should I be thinking about him like a tankier berserker unit?

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Shura makes for a decent filler whose biggest downfall is his inability to support anyone but Corrin/Kana (we don't talk about his growth rates).  I'd shove him into B, since he's instant utility, pretty good out of the box, and so very useful in the chapter after he's recruited!

EDIT: Right, and he thinks flying units are funny.  While that's a bow thing in general, I don't think Selena/Laslow want to become Bow Knights, Mozu probably isn't going to be used, I don't think Kaze wants to be a Mechanist, and the rest probably aren't going to have a monopoly on bows.  IMO Niles is the only serious competitor for this.

Edited by eclipse

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@Shoblongoo

My two main gripes with Troubadour Elise are probably:

  • Physical durability. Lily's Poise mandates you be adjacent to the unit in question, unlike Azura's Sing. This means that Elise can only buff units that are already on the very edge of an enemy's range, which is very restricting for the positions you can put her in / the units she'd be buffing. Her Demoiselle is a little more flexible.
  • Levelling speed. Staff EXP is pretty slow to gain, which impacts her ability to promote quickly and her offensive capabilities after promotion.

I will admit it's been a long time since I've used Troubadour Elise in one of my playthroughs so I might be underselling her. The unit I'd think most comparable to her is probably Felicia 1, who I also have in B; where Elise has 1-2 more move and better combat after promotion, Felicia's personal skill is much easier to use and she can actually fight things in the early game (dependent on Corrin marriage to actually fight WELL, but still...). I'd have her in B at the moment but curious to see if others have anything to say on the matter. -- Actually Johnnie thinks she's A so I might be outnumbered.

 

@Johnnie Capture is certainly factored into account when tiering Niles. The main issue is probably the stance on visiting online castles; if we can't gather resources effectively we have to spend a lot of IRL time to persuade prisoners which is a bit of a downer. With unrestricted resources Niles is borderline S - capture utility is fantastic.

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I'm never comfortable with Leo and Xander being tiered over Odin and Silias as the Bro royals don't even exist until halfway through the game and are strictly worse than their low level equivilants at join, not to mention the obscenity of kids.

Niles is Niles tier.

Elise is also strictly better than Leo if freed from troubadour.

Cornbread as an S rank also bothers me.

Edited by joshcja

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I agree with everything joshcja said.

If we allow castle grinding, why not DLC? If Haitaka is critical for Ch 10, it's trivial to arrange his recruitment. Chapters 7-9, Invasion 1 and P1 are enough to S-Rank Jakob and Corrin. Save I1 and P1 for after Ch 9, 2-turn Dwyer's Paralogue and you have Haitaka.

Though I usually only use him for Takumi on 13.

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18 hours ago, Centh said:

When do you play Keaton? I generally see other units as a better option for the role he would be playing. Or should I be thinking about him like a tankier berserker unit?

He's pretty much that~ He has High HP and Defense, plus good Attack and his speed is decent. Not where he's doubling a lot, but he's not dirt slow. But he has the bulk to survive multiple physical hits, that's mainly how he's used in his base class~ If you give him Sol, that also ups his survivability but most units aren't reclassing more than once in Conquest~

As for my thoughts, I'd agree with Jakob in S but Corrin, Camilla, and Xander should be A, imo (granted I didn't use Camilla or Xander much). I'd almost put Azura in A, too, if she weren't a Singer. Leo and Kaze would be B, I used Kaze through my whole playthrough and didn't feel he was all that great of a unit and Leo's not that good upfront. 

I think Beruka could be B or C~ I'd personally up Charlotte and Benny to C or at least Charlotte.

The rest I either agree with or can't give much insight otherwise due to not using the unit in question~ 

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Camilla is definitely S tier. She's the Ryoma of Conquest. You could bench her until everyone else reaches 20/1 and her bases will still be comparable to the rest of your team.

If you bump Charlotte and/or Benny up a tier than you need to bump Effie and Arthur up as they are strictly better in everything important. And neither of them deserve to be higher than C in my opinion.

Hell, give Keaton a heart seal and arms scroll and he's a better fighter than Charlotte.

Edited by Johnnie

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Keaton is pairup fodder tier. Extremely late kid making pairup bot tier.

Edit: Reclassing 2-3 times per unit is common. 

Edited by joshcja

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  • I can see Odin up to B. I'm fairly bullish on Odin myself but I know the Conquest community in general is kind of iffy on him (except Serenes Forest which seems to love him). He's comparable to Leo in everything except Magic - he can be kind of borderline on picking up 2HKOs. If we're attributing paralogue loot to a father's tier position then that definitely favours Odin.
  • I can see Leo down to B. Like above, he's statistically comparable to Odin - he doesn't need a forge and is more reliable at picking up 2HKOs but loses 6 maps of availability.
  • I can see Xander down to A. He joins later than the rest of S, and unlike them he offers no utility outside of combat, outside of Shelter. He's also ground-locked to utilise his strongest combat unlike Corrin/Jakob/Camilla which hurts in maps like C20 and C24.
  • I think Elise depends on our stance on visiting online castles. If we allow it, a lot of the opportunity cost of reclassing her goes. I don't care too much for Troubadour Elise but I can see that Wyvern Elise would be a tier above Leo, if we're moving him to B. She is a bit of an Arthur hog though.
  • My guy feel on Shura would be C or D. His averages are comparable to Niles (a Niles that chose the weaker promotion path...) but he has about half the availability and no capture utility, in exchange for D staves.

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Why are we dicussing raw stats in a CQ tier list?

Stack goes up to +75 realistically. Full statue stats for gen2's cap around 50-60ish.

Odin stacks +3 over Leo with a lower mag cap. At 20/20 with no use of spirit dust or statues Leo hits 6-10% harder than Odin with 15-20% less crit. Both miss the OHKO vantage mark because not Ophelia, and both need a crit or procced astra/Venge on taco with forged lightning.

They're functionally identical past ch23. but Odin is better from ch8-22 without any investment we would not also use on Leo as he has more stack to offset Leo's mag. (He also caps at +20 in game over +17)

This is not Odinhype but rather a comparison of stack and early join in CQ vs Latejoin. Also everyone but Benny and Effie doubles by the same logic. (JS. By this logic we can make a VoF Silias double one turn after his join in ch7. Starting from split this super devalues Cornbread and Jakob1 to potential A's)

(By now we all know I put Odin in Srank for CQLunatic so I'm refraining from any input on him other than "He's a rank over Leo" wherever that may be.)

------------------------

Partner sealing Jakob in ch9 while leaving Corn in Nhorble till ch10 is always optimal with light forge strats so the ch7 heart seal is open. Our next reclass is on ch13 right in time for second shop so we have one free seal. We should also consider A+ and S seals along with Arms scroll entries for units like Elise and Mozu.

I like Shura, but I'd kill off Camilia for a set of boots and he ain't Cammy. Boots rank.

--------------------

For ghits and siggles. My list. It's weird.

Niles: Niles, what a beautiful man

Nos: Odin. (Or Leo if you follow the rotten tomatoes score)

S: Azura, Camilia, Silias, Captured Stavebots.

A: Laslow (purely for footwork), Xander, Elise, Corrin, Jakob1.

B: Bowzu and the early join combat viable units with birds, bows, tomes, or axes. RALLYMASTER.

C: GUNthur and the pairup bots with early join and bad stack/nobowbirdtomeaxe. Misc other captures (Shoutouts to passfalco)

D: Keaton's bonehole. Peri lives here too.

E (Boots tier): Shura.

Edited by joshcja

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On 12/21/2018 at 1:43 AM, eclipse said:

Shura makes for a decent filler whose biggest downfall is his inability to support anyone but Corrin/Kana (we don't talk about his growth rates).  I'd shove him into B, since he's instant utility, pretty good out of the box, and so very useful in the chapter after he's recruited!

EDIT: Right, and he thinks flying units are funny.  While that's a bow thing in general, I don't think Selena/Laslow want to become Bow Knights, Mozu probably isn't going to be used, I don't think Kaze wants to be a Mechanist, and the rest probably aren't going to have a monopoly on bows.  IMO Niles is the only serious competitor for this.

I do agree Mozu probably won't see use, but is there any reason why Selena or Laslow wouldn't want to be Bow Knights?

9 hours ago, Dean said:
  • I can see Odin up to B. I'm fairly bullish on Odin myself but I know the Conquest community in general is kind of iffy on him (except Serenes Forest which seems to love him). He's comparable to Leo in everything except Magic - he can be kind of borderline on picking up 2HKOs. If we're attributing paralogue loot to a father's tier position then that definitely favours Odin.

Bold: Really? Because I think even here he's rather divisive - personally, I think he's junk, with the fact that he leans toward Skill and Luck, both of which aren't exactly the stats I'd want to specialize in, to say the least. Besides those, he's a Master of None, which ruins him.

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15 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I do agree Mozu probably won't see use, but is there any reason why Selena or Laslow wouldn't want to be Bow Knights?

 

8 hours ago, Johnnie said:

Is there any reason not to go Bow Knight for anyone? For that matter, why wouldn't Kaze want to be a Mechanist?

They'd be stuck at D bows (I think it would be E for Kaze into Mechanist), which isn't winning any awards on promotion.  While an Arms Scroll can be used to fix that, I think there's better candidates for it.  Niles would be the exception, though I think his stats lean more towards Adventurer.  I prefer Master Ninja, since they get extra movement, daggers, pair-up bonuses that I find useful, and a bunch of class stat boosts for no apparent reason.

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27 minutes ago, eclipse said:

 

They'd be stuck at D bows (I think it would be E for Kaze into Mechanist), which isn't winning any awards on promotion.  While an Arms Scroll can be used to fix that, I think there's better candidates for it.  Niles would be the exception, though I think his stats lean more towards Adventurer.  I prefer Master Ninja, since they get extra movement, daggers, pair-up bonuses that I find useful, and a bunch of class stat boosts for no apparent reason.

Selena and Laslow are stuck at E on promotion regardless of which class they promote into. Mount movement, flyer deletion and a hard counter to shurikens are all useful in late game. 

Mechanist gives more bulk and the same benefits as Bow Knight.

I think E rank is vastly overblown as a problem.

 

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41 minutes ago, eclipse said:

They'd be stuck at D bows (I think it would be E for Kaze into Mechanist), which isn't winning any awards on promotion.  While an Arms Scroll can be used to fix that, I think there's better candidates for it.  Niles would be the exception, though I think his stats lean more towards Adventurer.  I prefer Master Ninja, since they get extra movement, daggers, pair-up bonuses that I find useful, and a bunch of class stat boosts for no apparent reason.

I dunno - I think E bows is better than E axes when axes are pretty much at a really big low in the series (maybe not FE4 or FE6 levels of bad, but Fates ain't much better for axes imo). Also, I'd think Kaze would have some reason to use bows, as opposed to Master Ninja gaining swords, which probably would be no practical help.

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6 minutes ago, Johnnie said:

Selena and Laslow are stuck at E on promotion regardless of which class they promote into. Mount movement, flyer deletion and a hard counter to shurikens are all useful in late game. 

Mechanist gives more bulk and the same benefits as Bow Knight.

I think E rank is vastly overblown as a problem.

 

Bronze isn't exactly deletion material, and I'm not sure if the other E bows count in this sort of tiering (since the castle thing hasn't been sorted).  I can justify two E ranks, and that's staves and daggers.  Both of them have some sort of utility outside of raw damage.

5 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

I dunno - I think E bows is better than E axes when axes are pretty much at a really big low in the series (maybe not FE4 or FE6 levels of bad, but Fates ain't much better for axes imo). Also, I'd think Kaze would have some reason to use bows, as opposed to Master Ninja gaining swords, which probably would be no practical help.

Katanas give a speed boost - not sure how practical that is defensively.  I'm not sure if the extra stats from a Yumi save him from a KO or something, but that would be the only justification for it.  I said nothing about axes, so there's no reason to bring that up.

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1 minute ago, eclipse said:

Katanas give a speed boost - not sure how practical that is defensively.  I'm not sure if the extra stats from a Yumi save him from a KO or something, but that would be the only justification for it.  I said nothing about axes, so there's no reason to bring that up.

Regarding katanas' speed boost, I would say "not very" since that comes at the cost of your defenses. And Kaze's already made of glass physically - making that worse is naught but a recipe for disaster imo. As for Yumis, I personally don't see that helping since they boost Resistance, which he's already likely to be good in, and that's ignoring the accuracy issues. About the only useful one is the Illusory Yumi for anti-magic purposes, and short of visitor point rewards or DLC, you can't get it in Conquest. Regarding axes, I suppose that's fair - I only mentioned it because Hero is the alternate promotion for them, and we still haven't settled the seal debacle.

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11 hours ago, eclipse said:

 

They'd be stuck at D bows (I think it would be E for Kaze into Mechanist), which isn't winning any awards on promotion.  While an Arms Scroll can be used to fix that, I think there's better candidates for it.  Niles would be the exception, though I think his stats lean more towards Adventurer.  I prefer Master Ninja, since they get extra movement, daggers, pair-up bonuses that I find useful, and a bunch of class stat boosts for no apparent reason.

It's E all around. No rank on promo here.

E bows are low-key extremely good in CQ. We're missing out on big WTA early on but a +2 bronze now is not to be scoffed at with 10 MT and near perfect to-hit for 2k coin with a nice defensive rider. Our next best deal is silver (which is pure murder) and crecent (at extremely high stack) is a far better capstone weapon than a brave sword.

E bows is probably the "best" E in the game.

Edited by joshcja

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On 21/12/2018 at 12:04 AM, Johnnie said:

I would move Xander down to A. His sword is a better unit than he is. Elise would go up to A and Leo is a solid B. For my controversial statement, I would put Odin at B as well. It's trivial to feed him a few levels in 8, 9 and P1. He's your best counter to the archers in 10 and 11, he can nearly solo the right side of 12 and he does well against the knights and cavaliers in 13. Early promoted in 14 and he'll be equal or better than Leo with an actual speed stat and Brinhyldr isn't worth the extra rank. Odin is also the best Nosferatu user. It's been nerfed to hell but it still puts in solid work.

 

On 21/12/2018 at 11:38 AM, joshcja said:

I'm never comfortable with Leo and Xander being tiered over Odin and Silias as the Bro royals don't even exist until halfway through the game and are strictly worse than their low level equivilants at join, not to mention the obscenity of kids.


I know that this Tier List is based on Lunatic, and while my experience with Conquest Lunatic is about 1:10 to Hard, I think that I have played and beat the game enough times.

As Johnnie and joshcja have mentioned, I fail to see Xander and Leo raking higher than Silas and Odin, respectively. As it was also mentioned, Xander completely depends on Sigfried and a dedicated 'backpack' to shine. This is, with a +4 Def plus unrestricted 1-2 range weapon plus dedicated 'backpack'-bonuses like +7 Str or +5 Spd, it is not shocking that Xander works. Something similar goes for Leo, whose 'normal' build includes a 10 Might personal tome plus a dedicated +Spd 'backpack' plus Horse Spirit.

Lately, I have been playing ten units only, no royals, no 'backpacks' campaigns of Conquest Hard, and Silas always turns better than Xander without Sigfried or a dedicated 'backpack.' Silas has great availability, decent growths, useful skill set and class trees, a useful early child (Effie, Corrin and Mozu all bear great Sophies before Chapter 12), and his weaknesses are the same as Xander's (low Spd, prone to RNG-fucks.)
By the time Leo joins, Odin is an undead walking around with Nosferatu or already a Sorcerer blowing up things with critical hits. Not to mention that Odin could also have the Samurai's and a partner skill, and that Ophelia would be around L17-19, bombing maps.

Then again, I guess that most people have no reason to give up on royal weapons or dedicated 'backpacks' and therefore Xander and Leo will rank higher than Silas and Odin in most Tier Lists. I am only saying that on a more restricted comparison, the Nohr brothers does not really shine.


 

On 21/12/2018 at 6:58 AM, Dean said:

My two main gripes with Troubadour Elise are probably:

  • Physical durability. Lily's Poise mandates you be adjacent to the unit in question, unlike Azura's Sing. This means that Elise can only buff units that are already on the very edge of an enemy's range, which is very restricting for the positions you can put her in / the units she'd be buffing. Her Demoiselle is a little more flexible.
  • Levelling speed. Staff EXP is pretty slow to gain, which impacts her ability to promote quickly and her offensive capabilities after promotion.


That is weird. For me, Troubadour Elise is L10 in Ch 8 and L17-19 by Ch 13 (depending of the number of recruited children, usually two), making her always the first to class-change (between L15 and 17, depending on how her Magic and Skill level-ups are going.) On Lunatic, she even levels-up faster, for units usually get more damage and there are more chances to heal.

About her durability, the only sections where Elise faces enemies is on the left side of Ch 13 (as a Strategist), against Sorcerers in Ch 18 and magicians on Ch 24, in the Sorcerers's Room in Ch 26 and in some turns of End Game. She is always successful with the proper pair-up and tonics. There is almost no strategy involved in those encounters, she simply does not die.

Do not misinterpret me, you seem like you know your stuff; I am only stating this to show how different experiences are from one approach to another (like how some people hate Ch 17 or 19 while I find them easy and methodical, at the same time that I usually struggle with Ch 21.)

Edited by starburst

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