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Who is the worst unit, gameplay wise?

Who is the worst unit, gameplay wise?  

58 members have voted

  1. 1. Who is the worst unit? (I'm going to make a fight video with said characters)

    • Micaiah
      4
    • Edward
      1
    • Leonardo
      6
    • Nolan
      1
    • Laura
      2
    • Sothe
      1
    • Ilyana
      1
    • Aran
      2
    • Meg
      16
    • Volug
      1
    • Zihark
      0
    • Tauroneo
      1
    • Jill
      0
    • Fiona
      19
    • Tormod
      2
    • Muarim
      1
    • Vika
      3
    • Nailah
      0
    • Rafiel
      2
    • Elincia
      0
    • Marcia
      1
    • Leanne
      0
    • Nealuchi
      2
    • Haar
      1
    • Nephenee
      0
    • Brom
      2
    • Heather
      2
    • Lucia
      2
    • Mordecai
      2
    • Lethe
      2
    • Geoffrey
      1
    • Kieran
      1
    • Makalov
      1
    • Astrid
      2
    • Devdan
      1
    • Calill
      2
    • Ike
      1
    • Titania
      1
    • Oscar
      1
    • Boyd
      1
    • Rolf
      2
    • Shinon
      1
    • Soren
      1
    • Mist
      3
    • Gatrie
      1
    • Rhys
      1
    • Mia
      0
    • Ranulf
      1
    • Kyza
      4
    • Lyre
      34
    • Reyson
      0
    • Janaff
      2
    • Ulki
      2
    • Sigrun
      1
    • Tanith
      1
    • Naesala
      0
    • Skrimir
      1
    • Sanaki
      2
    • Tibarn
      0
    • Pelleas
      2
    • Stefan
      1
    • Oliver
      2
    • Bastian
      1
    • Volke
      1
    • Renning
      1
    • Caineghis
      0
    • Giffca
      0
    • Ena
      2
    • Kurthnaga
      1
    • Nasir
      1
    • Gareth
      4
    • Lehran
      3


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12 hours ago, eclipse said:

No, we are NOT going to argue opinions.  This is a poll.  Use your vote to express it.  Sheesh.

Yes, please!

Will do! I'm actually uploading a similar video tomorrow, and I can show you that as well. You wouldn't have to watch the entirety of tomorrow's video, but it would give you an idea as to what my video would look like.
Would you like me to link you to that video, tomorrow?

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8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

...???

Are you sure it was Astrid and not Meg? Because I always thought it was Meg who was the third of the unholy trinity...

Just checked GameFAQs (apparently their tier list still lives), and yep, I was right; Astrid is indeed the third member. Which I definitely agree with myself. Meg's some semblance of okay on join, while Astrid is garbage, with all her important stats around 3-5 points back of the second worst in each respective category, and bow-locked besides.

I'm not docking her points for having Paragon, but she certainly doesn't deserve credit for it either. Paragon is a valuable resource and will certainly be used by someone, and I'd personally rather give it to someone who turns out better than Astrid, which is literally everyone in the CRK (and then in 3-11 the competition further intensifies).

That said I'd probably agree that Lyre and Fiona are worse.

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27 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Just checked GameFAQs (apparently their tier list still lives), and yep, I was right; Astrid is indeed the third member. Which I definitely agree with myself. Meg's some semblance of okay on join, while Astrid is garbage, with all her important stats around 3-5 points back of the second worst in each respective category, and bow-locked besides.

I'm not docking her points for having Paragon, but she certainly doesn't deserve credit for it either. Paragon is a valuable resource and will certainly be used by someone, and I'd personally rather give it to someone who turns out better than Astrid, which is literally everyone in the CRK (and then in 3-11 the competition further intensifies).

That said I'd probably agree that Lyre and Fiona are worse.

To say Meg is "okay" is REALLY stretching it imo. Her bases aren't that good, and she's an armor, which means more move penalties than other units. Her growths don't help her case either, since her best growths are mostly concentrated in unimportant stats. She's also sword-locked, which, while not as bad as being bow-locked, isn't good either. Anyhow, I'd say Astrid's niche is, as I stated earlier, Paragon/Blossom, since she's the only one who can use the skill combination for any noteworthy length of time (Geoffrey disappears until 4-5, and most laguz fall under one of two categories - either they're beyond saving, or they're good enough to not need it (to say nothing of the fact that iirc, they have to be level 30+ to use it)). As for the others in the CRK, who else would be a good candidate for Paragon? Kieran is shaky speed wise, Danved is footlocked and doesn't offer anything of note, Geoffrey, I already covered, and I dunno what Makalov has going for him. Which leaves Calill and Marcia. Long story short, Astrid has a noteworthy niche, Meg doesn't.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

Anyhow, I'd say Astrid's niche is, as I stated earlier, Paragon/Blossom, since she's the only one who can use the skill combination for any noteworthy length of time (Geoffrey disappears until 4-5, and most laguz fall under one of two categories - either they're beyond saving, or they're good enough to not need it (to say nothing of the fact that iirc, they have to be level 30+ to use it)) AS for the others in the CRK, who else would be a good candidate for Paragon? Kieran is shaky speed wise, Danved is footlocked and doesn't offer anything of note, Geoffrey, I already covered, and I dunno what Makalov has going for him. Which leaves Calill and Marcia.

Which laguz are beyond saving? Because I'd say every laguz except Lyre is better than Astrid. You can make the case for Kyza I suppose, and obviously there are weird corner cases like Vika and Muarim who don't really exist long enough to be in this conversation (but are useful in their Part 1 showings).

Laguz make the best users of Blossom in case you didn't know. BExp to 99 -> gain a level with Blossom -> enjoy the fireworks. Not like laguz care that much about losing out on combat exp in part 3 anyway! Beorc can't compare at this because they don't have the ability to get effectively 2 points in the same stat per level, and they have more to lose in terms of combat exp as well.

Kieran is indeed shaky speed-wise, I agree. So you should consider what it means that he has +5 base speed on Astrid and only 10% less growth. She catches up to his speed eventually but never meaningfully passes him (she might at some point get a 1-point lead). Danved is foot-locked but absolutely crushes Astrid on stats, and also gets a powerful 2-range SS weapon we're actually talking about bringing either to Endgame for some reason. Makalov once he gets rolling has good speed and is okay otherwise, and can rock Hammer+Wyrmslayer. To be clear, none of those units are good (Makalov and Danved in particular are in the bottom third of units for worth IMO), but all are a lot better than Astrid.

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2 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Which laguz are beyond saving? Because I'd say every laguz except Lyre is better than Astrid. You can make the case for Kyza I suppose, and obviously there are weird corner cases like Vika and Muarim who don't really exist long enough to be in this conversation (but are useful in their Part 1 showings).

Laguz make the best users of Blossom in case you didn't know. BExp to 99 -> gain a level with Blossom -> enjoy the fireworks. Not like laguz care that much about losing out on combat exp in part 3 anyway! Beorc can't compare at this because they don't have the ability to get effectively 2 points in the same stat per level, and they have more to lose in terms of combat exp as well.

Kieran is indeed shaky speed-wise, I agree. So you should consider what it means that he has +5 base speed on Astrid and only 10% less growth. She catches up to his speed eventually but never meaningfully passes him (she might at some point get a 1-point lead). Danved is foot-locked but absolutely crushes Astrid on stats, and also gets a powerful 2-range SS weapon we're actually talking about bringing either to Endgame for some reason. Makalov once he gets rolling has good speed and is okay otherwise, and can rock Hammer+Wyrmslayer. To be clear, none of those units are good (Makalov and Danved in particular are in the bottom third of units for worth IMO), but all are a lot better than Astrid.

Astrid's SS weapon is better than Danved's though. Unless one considers +3 luck is better than +3 str.

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7 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Astrid's SS weapon is better than Danved's though. Unless one considers +3 luck is better than +3 str.

Both of which have barely any time to be used. And Astrid anyhow is better than Danved in the Tower, due to 35 vs. 33 Spd cap.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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3 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Which laguz are beyond saving? Because I'd say every laguz except Lyre is better than Astrid. You can make the case for Kyza I suppose, and obviously there are weird corner cases like Vika and Muarim who don't really exist long enough to be in this conversation (but are useful in their Part 1 showings).

Laguz make the best users of Blossom in case you didn't know. BExp to 99 -> gain a level with Blossom -> enjoy the fireworks. Not like laguz care that much about losing out on combat exp in part 3 anyway! Beorc can't compare at this because they don't have the ability to get effectively 2 points in the same stat per level, and they have more to lose in terms of combat exp as well.

Kieran is indeed shaky speed-wise, I agree. So you should consider what it means that he has +5 base speed on Astrid and only 10% less growth. She catches up to his speed eventually but never meaningfully passes him (she might at some point get a 1-point lead). Danved is foot-locked but absolutely crushes Astrid on stats, and also gets a powerful 2-range SS weapon we're actually talking about bringing either to Endgame for some reason. Makalov once he gets rolling has good speed and is okay otherwise, and can rock Hammer+Wyrmslayer. To be clear, none of those units are good (Makalov and Danved in particular are in the bottom third of units for worth IMO), but all are a lot better than Astrid.

If I may be frank... damn near all of them since they don't offer anything of note to warrant dealing with gauge and their other issues. It'd be easier and faster for me to name the exceptions (dragons, royals, hawks, Skrimir). 

Too bad that iaguz are slow to improve relative to beorc and have a massive array of weaknesses that ruin their viability then, eh? Unless you're one of those few that are just that damn good, that is (or a royal, but they're limited to part 4 with the exception of Nailah, who pulls Eleventh Hour Ranger twice). 

Granted, Kieran does have 5 base speed over Astrid, but he also has that godawful biorhythm wave that can occasionally compromise his efficiency (which isn't helped by him being axe-locked until third tier), and worse yet, he only has a 31 speed cap, which compromises his efficiency in the tower. Danved's SS weapon is worse than Astrid's, and as stated earlier, both are only available for endgame. But what's more of note, she ruins him in the tower due to 35 speed cap against his 33. Makalov is fast, but his 33 speed cap is not enough for me to consider him better in the long run.

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39 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Astrid's SS weapon is better than Danved's though. Unless one considers +3 luck is better than +3 str.

+3 str is indeed better than +3 luck, but I would consider that roughly counterbalanced by the fact that Wishblade doesn't suffer -30 hit at range 1, myself. Although in fairness, you do have Double Bow for an extra map.

35 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Both of which have barely any time to be used. And Astrid anyhow is better than Danved in the Tower, due to 35 vs. 33 Spd cap.

Astrid averages under 32 speed even at 20/20/20, which I would consider high for almost anyone in these sorts of discussions, let alone an initially-underlevelled archer, and Spd doesn't become one of her top three stats (for bonus exp purposes) until 20/20/13. This combination does not leave me terribly impressed by Astrid's speed cap. If the point is "who is better under absolute peak levels of favouritism" then I'd agree that Astrid surpasses Danved then, but on the other hand she's also passed by Fiona by that metric (due to the latter's earth affinity) so take that as you will.

Note that at 20/20/10, Danved is still beating Astrid by 4 speed, as well as 7 HP and 5 Def, and his only losses are in stats that are relatively unimportant (res and a bit of luck, but Danved's luck is already good enough to null most crits). And that assumes both are at 20/20/10 at the same time, which won't happen.

3 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

If I may be frank... damn near all of them since they don't offer anything of note to warrant dealing with gauge and their other issues. It'd be easier and faster for me to name the exceptions (dragons, royals, hawks, Skrimir). 

 

If you unironically think that Ranulf or Mordecai or Volug are worse units than Astrid then I may lose all faith for your ability to weigh in on the worth of Fire Emblem units.

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1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

If you unironically think that Ranulf or Mordecai or Volug are worse units than Astrid then I may lose all faith for your ability to weigh in on the worth of Fire Emblem units.

This coming from someone who thinks that Lethe, who is almost as bad as her sister, is better than Astrid... Very funny. In all seriousness, though, I consider gauge that big of a disadvantage, especially for Ranulf. As for the other two, Mordecai is a mega tank transformed, and pretty much the only laguz I can think of who can be exposed untransformed and not get beaten to within an inch of his life by one enemy. Volug is noteworthy for being one of the carries in the DB, and I give him credit for that. However, in part 3, he has to wait 5 turns before he can contribute. I shouldn't have to tell you that's too long. Like I said earlier, for me to consider using a laguz, they'd have to have something of note for me to decide they're worth using in spite of their issues. Out of the three you mentioned, Ranulf fails miserably just because he's a cat, AKA the worst class in the game. Mordecai passes. Volug, like was stated earlier, is good in part 1, but I hesitate to consider him worth using in part 3. Anyway, I'm stopping here, because this is going off topic.

Edited by Shadow Mir

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Hold on a second, why are we even talking about Danved? Is anyone suggesting he's the worst unit in the game? Because really whether or not he's better than Astrid is irrelevant in a discussion about the worst unit. Astrid's not vying for top tier, she's vying for "Not bottom".

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5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Astrid averages under 32 speed even at 20/20/20, which I would consider high for almost anyone in these sorts of discussions, let alone an initially-underlevelled archer, and Spd doesn't become one of her top three stats (for bonus exp purposes) until 20/20/13. This combination does not leave me terribly impressed by Astrid's speed cap. If the point is "who is better under absolute peak levels of favouritism" then I'd agree that Astrid surpasses Danved then, but on the other hand she's also passed by Fiona by that metric (due to the latter's earth affinity) so take that as you will.

Note that at 20/20/10, Danved is still beating Astrid by 4 speed, as well as 7 HP and 5 Def, and his only losses are in stats that are relatively unimportant (res and a bit of luck, but Danved's luck is already good enough to null most crits). And that assumes both are at 20/20/10 at the same time, which won't happen.

To play devil's advocate a little - Astrid is somewhat BEXP-able, capping Res and HP at level 15 (unpromoted). Her highest remaining growths are Lck (70), Skl (45), and Str/Spd (both 40) - not great because she will most likely only get one out of the two important stats per level-up, but still. And after promotion, she caps Lck fairly quickly (especially if she got some BEXP levels beforehand), which already makes BEXP levels technically worth it, although not really because the most likely level-up is HP/Skl/Res. But it would allow her cap HP and Res a bit earlier than usual, so if you're really willing to put all this investment into her, she should cap Str and Spd quite reliably afterwards.

Of course, I'm not saying that this is even remotely worth it. I can actually see Meg > Astrid, at least on Normal difficulty where Meg is at least functional when she joins. Astrid is pretty much a millstone in 2-3, largly irreleant in 2-F and at best contributes some weak chip in part 3. On Hard (which I haven't played in a long while, so bear with me if I misremember this), Meg struggles to reach some not-get-doubled benchmarks, though, so I'd consider her just as bad as Astrid initially and definitely worse in the longterm.

Also, Lethe has one chapter in which she's quite good and one where she is still able to contribute if you don't Haar-skip it. Not a whole lot, but still more than Astrid, Fiona or (HM-)Meg have.

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3 hours ago, ping said:

Also, Lethe has one chapter in which she's quite good and one where she is still able to contribute if you don't Haar-skip it. Not a whole lot, but still more than Astrid, Fiona or (HM-)Meg have.

I dunno - I don't Haar-skip 2-E, and I find that Lethe struggles to contribute there. She's too brittle to hold the frontlines, especially the right chokepoint with its assloads of Generals, which isn't helped by the fact that she always has to eat counters (and even if she wasn't, she still has to contend with cat gauge, aka she cannot engage more than two enemies a turn, otherwise she loses more gauge than one use of olivi grass restores), she can't help with the initial push... what can she do without putting herself in danger?? And I'm not sure she's good in 2-2 either - instead, I'm convinced she's the worst unit there too. . .

Edited by Shadow Mir

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2 hours ago, ping said:

Of course, I'm not saying that this is even remotely worth it. I can actually see Meg > Astrid, at least on Normal difficulty where Meg is at least functional when she joins. Astrid is pretty much a millstone in 2-3, largly irreleant in 2-F and at best contributes some weak chip in part 3. On Hard (which I haven't played in a long while, so bear with me if I misremember this), Meg struggles to reach some not-get-doubled benchmarks, though, so I'd consider her just as bad as Astrid initially and definitely worse in the longterm.

I do think Fiona and Meg alike have a certain "worth" gained in being trained that can't be found in Astrid or Lyre. That being that the Dawn Brigade is lacking for units for its three P3 fights. Not a whole lot of worth, and you have Edlenoaril as alternative unpromoted units to train up for P3, plus Sothe, Zihark, T-ro, and Volug regardless. But, this I trying to say, in a weak way, is it is less "necessary" it is to train up some "weaklings", be it Neph or Boyd or Lyre, in Part 3 GMs, than in the Dawn Brigade. The four I just named above, plus the huge yellow armies in two of Mic's 3 battles and the BK in the other I also admit, don't dominate as much as the GMs' finest, e.g. Haar and Titania and Ike. There is no "pinch" that Astrid or Lyre ever have to fight in.

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When I see that "Danved talk", I want to admit that Aran is heavily struggling in hard mode too. Honestly I would have ranked him even lower than Meg, if she had had nine speed not to get onerounded by a tiger in 1-4. She has almost the same bases as him for being four levels lower. Never ever liked using Aran in hard mode. His high strength and defense is meaningless when he gets doubled. Seriously even Leonardo has more uses than him who I find a decent filler unit btw. Since the Dawn Brigade is lacking on range units, Leo is "OK" for this role. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Necrofantasia said:

Seriously even Leonardo has more uses than him who I find a decent filler unit btw. Since the Dawn Brigade is lacking on range units, Leo is "OK" for this role. 

He is decent in the long run, and Brave Bow (unless you have Heather steal it off some DB weakling in 3-7) and the Lughnasdh are good. But does the DB really need more ranged units other than Micaiah? I find myself asking for more facetanks during most of the DB's game.

Although I do admit that once promoted, he can effectively facetank 3-6 and 3-13 probably via Beastfoe + Bowgun, if he can survive a round of combat against the beasts, I'm not sure, but I don't think they'll attack him. And not being attacked works for facetanking in a chokepoint environment where you aren't playing for turns. 

Though I don't get how IS thought making his highest growths Skl/Lck/HP/Res was a good idea. Micaiah's speed growth, albeit with 2 more at the same level, was not a good idea. At least they kept the Res cap low for Archer, and gave Marksmen a 34 cap. So he has the weird thing of not being totally redundant with Shinon/Astrid/Rolf since Lugh lets him Aura double anyhow.

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In 3-6 I hardly call Micaiah a range unit since she is busy with healing. 

Jill with hand axe and beastfoe could work, although it is not the most accurate weapon. 

Edward in wrath zone with wind edge / storm sword can be fun, but they are also inaccurate, even less accurate than hand / short Axe. 

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4 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I do think Fiona and Meg alike have a certain "worth" gained in being trained that can't be found in Astrid or Lyre. That being that the Dawn Brigade is lacking for units for its three P3 fights. Not a whole lot of worth, and you have Edlenoaril as alternative unpromoted units to train up for P3, plus Sothe, Zihark, T-ro, and Volug regardless. But, this I trying to say, in a weak way, is it is less "necessary" it is to train up some "weaklings", be it Neph or Boyd or Lyre, in Part 3 GMs, than in the Dawn Brigade. The four I just named above, plus the huge yellow armies in two of Mic's 3 battles and the BK in the other I also admit, don't dominate as much as the GMs' finest, e.g. Haar and Titania and Ike. There is no "pinch" that Astrid or Lyre ever have to fight in.

It works against them, too, though. The GM have a bunch of units that function with relatively little investment - Haar, Titania, Ike, Shinon... - and are generally strong enough to drag an underleveled (or just plain bad) unit along, so training the likes of Boyd or Neph (or even Ilyana if you really want to) isn't as difficult as feeding kills to Fiona. Generally speaking, I feel that each deployment slot in the DB chapters is worth a lot more than they are for the GM and fielding Meg or Fiona over a better growth unit or even a prepromoted is quite the handicap.

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20 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Just checked GameFAQs (apparently their tier list still lives), and yep, I was right; Astrid is indeed the third member. Which I definitely agree with myself. Meg's some semblance of okay on join, while Astrid is garbage, with all her important stats around 3-5 points back of the second worst in each respective category, and bow-locked besides.

I'm not docking her points for having Paragon, but she certainly doesn't deserve credit for it either. Paragon is a valuable resource and will certainly be used by someone, and I'd personally rather give it to someone who turns out better than Astrid, which is literally everyone in the CRK (and then in 3-11 the competition further intensifies).

That said I'd probably agree that Lyre and Fiona are worse.

Really don't like this logic with Paragon you have here. It becomes a circle of, "Unit is bad, so we don't use her. We didn't use her, now she's bad." If you're using Astrid, you're keeping Paragon on her, and if we're talking about Astrid's value in gameplay, we're using her because you don't judge a unit on not using them. Consider it a cost if you must, but I don't think it changes anything in this particular argument. It's an option she can benefit from that Meg, Fiona, and Lyre largely cannot.

I would actually argue using bows helps Astrid, at least initially. She can attack most enemies without risk of a counterattack, something Meg rarely gets, and even with Swords Meg has shaky accuracy for a while.

6 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

I do think Fiona and Meg alike have a certain "worth" gained in being trained that can't be found in Astrid or Lyre. That being that the Dawn Brigade is lacking for units for its three P3 fights. Not a whole lot of worth, and you have Edlenoaril as alternative unpromoted units to train up for P3, plus Sothe, Zihark, T-ro, and Volug regardless. But, this I trying to say, in a weak way, is it is less "necessary" it is to train up some "weaklings", be it Neph or Boyd or Lyre, in Part 3 GMs, than in the Dawn Brigade. The four I just named above, plus the huge yellow armies in two of Mic's 3 battles and the BK in the other I also admit, don't dominate as much as the GMs' finest, e.g. Haar and Titania and Ike. There is no "pinch" that Astrid or Lyre ever have to fight in.

Fiona, yes. Meg, no. Meg is forever hampered by low move and a terrible Spd cap (she has trouble doubling enemies in part 3 on normal mode with her 22 tier 2 Spd cap). Meg is really never good, she's only ever going to be okay at best, which is why I still put her lower than both Astrid and Fiona even though getting her to that "okay" is easier; if I'm going to train a bad unit, might as well use one that actually becomes good.

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19 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

This coming from someone who thinks that Lethe, who is almost as bad as her sister, is better than Astrid... Very funny. In all seriousness, though, I consider gauge that big of a disadvantage, especially for Ranulf. As for the other two, Mordecai is a mega tank transformed, and pretty much the only laguz I can think of who can be exposed untransformed and not get beaten to within an inch of his life by one enemy. Volug is noteworthy for being one of the carries in the DB, and I give him credit for that. However, in part 3, he has to wait 5 turns before he can contribute. I shouldn't have to tell you that's too long. Like I said earlier, for me to consider using a laguz, they'd have to have something of note for me to decide they're worth using in spite of their issues. Out of the three you mentioned, Ranulf fails miserably just because he's a cat, AKA the worst class in the game. Mordecai passes. Volug, like was stated earlier, is good in part 1, but I hesitate to consider him worth using in part 3. Anyway, I'm stopping here, because this is going off topic.

1. I just quickly googled some tier lists from Reddit and SF and, joining the GameFAQs one I referenced, all had Lethe above Astrid. Your view is the minority one. That said, you'll note I didn't include Lethe in my previous statement, acknowledging that her vs Astrid is at least vaguely debatable. Astrid > Ranulf and Astrid > Volug are not defensible claims.

2. Base untransformed Ranulf has equal spd, +3 def, and +22 HP on base Astrid, so if he can't be exposed for risk of him untransforming and becoming frail, what does that say about Astrid? Never mind that you shouldn't be exposing him (or any laguz) to many hits untransformed; we can count exactly how many enemies threaten him and decide when to grass up accordingly.

3. Volug needs to wait at most 2 turns to contribute, not 5. Have you even used laguz in this game? Do you not know about Olivi Grass? Or do you not realize you can buy a pack in Part 1?

4 hours ago, Florete said:

Really don't like this logic with Paragon you have here. It becomes a circle of, "Unit is bad, so we don't use her. We didn't use her, now she's bad." If you're using Astrid, you're keeping Paragon on her, and if we're talking about Astrid's value in gameplay, we're using her because you don't judge a unit on not using them. Consider it a cost if you must, but I don't think it changes anything in this particular argument. It's an option she can benefit from that Meg, Fiona, and Lyre largely cannot

Keeping Paragon on someone is a cost as you note; my argument was merely that pretty much anyone else is more "worth it" than she is, including maligned units like Danved and Makalov. That said, I'm mostly fine with comparing her to other units using Paragon. Meg and Fiona can't benefit from it as much (since they can't use it until promotion) but they can certainly benefit from it in Part 3, for instance. (Though in Astrid's slight defence, her path has two Paragons to play with and theirs only has 1.)

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1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

1. I just quickly googled some tier lists from Reddit and SF and, joining the GameFAQs one I referenced, all had Lethe above Astrid. Your view is the minority one. That said, you'll note I didn't include Lethe in my previous statement, acknowledging that her vs Astrid is at least vaguely debatable. Astrid > Ranulf and Astrid > Volug are not defensible claims.

What time period were all of these from? Because I don't give much weight to old tier lists.

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

2. Base untransformed Ranulf has equal spd, +3 def, and +22 HP on base Astrid, so if he can't be exposed for risk of him untransforming and becoming frail, what does that say about Astrid? Never mind that you shouldn't be exposing him (or any laguz) to many hits untransformed; we can count exactly how many enemies threaten him and decide when to grass up accordingly.

The problem I have here is that we're talking about a melee unit and a ranged unit. You obviously wouldn't leave your ranged units exposed, now would you? On the other hand, the melee unit in this case has to deal with downtime, and needs to lose player phases to avoid his vulnerable untransformed state. Granted, both units have flaws, but I consider needing to transform to contribute and the various disadvantages that come with being a laguz more severe flaws. Oh, and this is ignoring that Astrid can move away after attacking.

1 hour ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

3. Volug needs to wait at most 2 turns to contribute, not 5. Have you even used laguz in this game? Do you not know about Olivi Grass? Or do you not realize you can buy a pack in Part 1?

Okay, fine. That's still two turns too many to wait for a unit to be able to contribute, so that changes nothing, far as I'm concerned. As to your question, no, because the need to micromanage gauge makes most laguz more trouble to work with than they're worth. It doesn't help that I think the concept of laguz just does not work in a game series with permanent death (like this one!). Nor does it that laguz are just sloooooow to improve relative to beorc to the point I consider it a massive turnoff (beorc can use stronger weapons or have weapons forged for them if I deem their performance unsatisfactory. Laguz are SOL in that regard, because strike rank increases at a snail's pace). As for Olivi Grass, that's not exactly cheap (1600 gold). 

Edited by Shadow Mir

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I never really got how Laguz start battles with their transformation gauge empty. What are they doing, just transforming to play cards and stuff with their paws while they're waiting for the battle to begin? I could see it for some chapters like Ike's first one in Part 4 where the party is ambushed suddenly, but in almost all cases the player characters are deciding when to engage in battle, so the laguz should be fully charged and ready. Gameplay story segregation I guess, but it's a weird one that just makes them way worse.

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45 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I never really got how Laguz start battles with their transformation gauge empty. What are they doing, just transforming to play cards and stuff with their paws while they're waiting for the battle to begin? I could see it for some chapters like Ike's first one in Part 4 where the party is ambushed suddenly, but in almost all cases the player characters are deciding when to engage in battle, so the laguz should be fully charged and ready. Gameplay story segregation I guess, but it's a weird one that just makes them way worse.

What's even more egregious is that when you see laguz in the enemy ranks, they're often not subject to this - they either start out transformed already or they are partway to transforming OR they're maxed out and ready to transform.

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3 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The problem I have here is that we're talking about a melee unit and a ranged unit. You obviously wouldn't leave your ranged units exposed, now would you? On the other hand, the melee unit in this case has to deal with downtime, and needs to lose player phases to avoid his vulnerable untransformed state. Granted, both units have flaws, but I consider needing to transform to contribute and the various disadvantages that come with being a laguz more severe flaws. Oh, and this is ignoring that Astrid can move away after attacking.

Okay, fine. That's still two turns too many to wait for a unit to be able to contribute, so that changes nothing, far as I'm concerned. As to your question, no, because the need to micromanage gauge makes most laguz more trouble to work with than they're worth. It doesn't help that I think the concept of laguz just does not work in a game series with permanent death (like this one!). Nor does it that laguz are just sloooooow to improve relative to beorc to the point I consider it a massive turnoff (beorc can use stronger weapons or have weapons forged for them if I deem their performance unsatisfactory. Laguz are SOL in that regard, because strike rank increases at a snail's pace). As for Olivi Grass, that's not exactly cheap (1600 gold). 

You can't seriously be trying to argue that Astrid is better than Ranulf and Volug.

Ranulf, at base, doubles everything for a long time, with enough power to kill or seriously wound the majority of enemies.

And Volug, like, what? Even ignoring part 1, he's easily your strongest non-BK unit in DB part 3. So he takes two turns to get going, big deal? Then you have him for the rest of the map. He doubles literally everything and, iirc, kills all but the strongest Tigers, and that's before he gets S strike.

Volug is actually sick. I put him up with Janaff and Skrimir as non-Formshift Laguz who are actually long-term sustainable. Go ahead and dislike using Laguz all you want, it doesn't make them all bad. A lot of your statements here really just come down to you not liking them, not them actually being bad. Also lol @ suggesting 1600 for Olivi Grass is a problem.

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This thread inspires me to do a new tierlist since I have thought about some changes like giving Astrid and Fiona a better score. Meg was rated too low by myself as well, although she has a by far less payoff than Fiona. 

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7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

What's even more egregious is that when you see laguz in the enemy ranks, they're often not subject to this - they either start out transformed already or they are partway to transforming OR they're maxed out and ready to transform.

If I were to implement the laguz I'd probably have the start out transformed and increase the length of their guage on both transform and recharge, or just make it purely turn based. This would make them units who hit hard during the opening of the chapter and then become dead weights after  the first few turns. Basically the idea of the Quick Burn skill in Unit form only with a second wind they can get naturally towards the end of a battle that you can also make come around sooner by spending resources. They'd be an LTCers dream.

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