Ranking the (known) personal skills

[Armchair General]

Aren't 3 ranged weapons kind of rare?

Excluding the class skill that archers get.

[BergelomeuSantos]

34 minutes ago, Glennstavos said:

Dorothea's skill only works on adjacent allies. She must be right behind the tank to heal him up. And even if it did heal allies two spaces away, she would still put herself at risk of 3 range weapons. As it is though, she's at risk of any 2 range opponent if she tries to sit that close to a chokepoint. And since she'd be more frail than your tank, the AI will prioritize attacking her however they can and then your tank has nothing to do.

Oh, shots! I ended up reading that wrong, sorry.

Welp, no more ''imortal farming''. Well, at least not in that way.

[Flere210]

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Any reason why you think this is so great? Because I don't see it as being nearly as good as you're hyping it up to be.

This 100% depend on the avoid formula. That skill would be golden on someone that can stack avoid bonuses untill most enemies have less than 10% chance to hit. Fates made dodgetanking difficult and subaki himself was not built for dodgtanking so it was just a case of bad match imo.

Also i assume that battalion will be an huge thing in the game, so i am tempted to put Felix's one in a low tier unless there is an equivalent to the langrisser ranger(a very strong class that can't use troops), in that case, Felix would likely be the best ranger.

 

But in general i think that evaluating partial aspect whitout the full picture is useless. Wonder guard is the best ability in the game unless you consider that only Shedinja has it.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Glennstavos said:

Or you're in a scenario where the enemy came to you, hit you because you weren't lucky, and you can finish them off before retreating. Saying canto is bad because movement is not infinite is like saying a weapon that's about to break is no use to you. Plan around your limitations.

This reeks very heavily of putting words in my mouth. My point is that Canto doesn't save Confidence from being gutter trash - sure, it can be used to retreat towards a healer, but if you don't have enough leftover movement, you'd have to worry about exposing your healer.

[BastienSoul]

34 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

Also i assume that battalion will be an huge thing in the game, so i am tempted to put Felix's one in a low tier unless there is an equivalent to the langrisser ranger(a very strong class that can't use troops), in that case, Felix would likely be the best ranger.

Felix has a weakness in Authority, so he probably wouldn't be the best use of troops anyway.

[Armchair General]

27 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

This reeks very heavily of putting words in my mouth. My point is that Canto doesn't save Confidence from being gutter trash - sure, it can be used to retreat towards a healer, but if you don't have enough leftover movement, you'd have to worry about exposing your healer.

It kind of depends on the terrain and enemy placement, tbh. But if you're relying on hit-and-run tactics like that, you should have an replacement or two to aggro the guy you just hit.

[link16hit]

that's remind me, terrain now have high Avoid, so it will probably help?

[Cysx]

6 hours ago, Glennstavos said:

The way I see experience boosting skills in this game is that 20% is a tiny increase. If you normally get 30 exp from a kill, this skill gives you 36 instead. If a Nobility unit and a non Nobility unit get ten kills worth of experience, it's still three level ups. Not groundbreaking. I'd rather have a skill that helps your combat immediately. And we don't know how large the growths will be in this game. Even if they end up being good growths, I'd rather use units that are good out of the gate with high base stats or other features. I'm not going to ignore the student characters, since they'll be all you have for the early game, but if one or two of them aren't shaping up to meet my standards, then they get the bench. Stopping to grind is one thing I don't concern myself with for rankings, but it sounds like you have less grinding opportunities on higher difficulties anyway. One extra level up here or there on an individual unit slowly soloing a skirmish chapter isn't going to make them a powerhouse unless that's how they started out.

I actually thought it fought against lowered exp gains due to being higher level than the target. I think Awakening's Veteran did that, but from basic testing, I guess Fates' Nobility doesn't, or very minimally.

Well, it's still a lead the unit will most always have on others, in terms of skills, class changing, etc. But you're right, I might have oversold it a bit.

As an aside, if stats really can go up to 60 as VincentASM measured, growth rates will probably be relatively high.

[SpiceMan]

10 hours ago, colossus86 said:

But I think Ferdinand is supposed to be an Axe Cav or something so that might be a bit questionable.

He has a D rank in Lances, and only an E+ rank in Axes so he is very much intended to be a traditional lance knight. 

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, link16hit said:

that's remind me, terrain now have high Avoid, so it will probably help?

Um, how high are we talking?

[Cysx]

1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

Um, how high are we talking?

Forests seem to give +30

[Lynsanity]

I didn't notice Felix is a +5 damage effect, that sounds amazing. He looks to be a fast myrmidon type, so if he's doubling enemies frequently (or just equipped with gauntlets) it'll actually be +10? And all you're giving up is a battalion, which he has a weakness in anyway? That really makes Hilda's super conditional +3 effect look like trash in comparison.

Of course, he could have low strength growths. But that skill would still be enough to push a strength-screwed unit from bad to usable.

[Armchair General]

9 hours ago, Cysx said:

Forests seem to give +30

That isn't exactly high, considering how SoV went for the 20-60 range.

[SpiceMan]

1 hour ago, Lynsanity said:

I didn't notice Felix is a +5 damage effect, that sounds amazing. He looks to be a fast myrmidon type, so if he's doubling enemies frequently (or just equipped with gauntlets) it'll actually be +10? And all you're giving up is a battalion, which he has a weakness in anyway? That really makes Hilda's super conditional +3 effect look like trash in comparison.

Of course, he could have low strength growths. But that skill would still be enough to push a strength-screwed unit from bad to usable.

Give him Gauntlets, which he has a strength in btw, and he will quadruple enemies and thereby do +20 the usual damage from his skill. Low tier my ass, I'd consider putting this in High tier just for the early game damage nukes. 

Edited June 1, 2019 by SpiceMan

[Cysx]

24 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

That isn't exactly high, considering how SoV went for the 20-60 range.

Forests in SoV were 40, but SoV was absurd. +30 for a forest tile is still higher than... well every single FE game that isn't Gaiden(which didn't have forests apparently...?) or SoV, it seems.

[colossus86]

36 minutes ago, SpiceMan said:

Give him Gauntlets, which he has a strength in btw, and he will quadruple enemies and thereby do +20 the usual damage from his skill. Low tier my ass, I'd consider putting this in High tier just for the early game damage nukes. 

The only concern for Felix is the activation requirements. Battalions grant passive bonuses just for being active and while trading those bonuses for 5 on hit damage might make alot of sense early on, if those bonuses scale with more advanced battalions it might become a much less appealing option. His apparent strength in bows is also worth noting here. If he's supposed to be our Navarre, he's likely fast and fragile. And melee, player phase oriented infantry generally don't fare very well in the late game. So perhaps he can start as a huge melee damage dealer leaning on his personal skill and gauntlets, then transition into archer when being on the front lines no longer suits him.

But yeah I'd agree its definitely mid to high tier depending on how long it stays relevant

[Flere210]

The point is that i am expecting battalion to be way better than even a +10 attack, simply by logic: is a fucking battalion, it should be very powerful unless the playable characters are Musuo-tier overpowered. I am assuming that using a battalion will always better than not using it even on Felix, and so his skill will only come into play when the battalion dies, wich is not something you want tonhappen because felix with a battalion > Felix whitout one.

[Calico]

3 minutes ago, Flere210 said:

The point is that i am expecting battalion to be way better than even a +10 attack, simply by logic: is a fucking battalion, it should be very powerful unless the playable characters are Musuo-tier overpowered. I am assuming that using a battalion will always better than not using it even on Felix, and so his skill will only come into play when the battalion dies, wich is not something you want tonhappen because felix with a battalion > Felix whitout one.

We can see some of the stat boosts that battalions give, and one C-rank battalion according to this analysis only gives +2 Strength compared to Felix's +5 attack without a battalion. There may be late game battalions that will boost strength by +5 or more, but I think Felix will do very well without a battalion, especially in the early and mid-game. 

[Flere210]

12 minutes ago, Calico said:

We can see some of the stat boosts that battalions give, and one C-rank battalion according to this analysis only gives +2 Strength compared to Felix's +5 attack without a battalion. There may be late game battalions that will boost strength by +5 or more, but I think Felix will do very well without a battalion, especially in the early and mid-game. 

I missed it lol. Still, the fact that they take it for you and allow gambit seems both much better bonuses to the +2 strenght. Felix being bad at using them may be really bad news dependending on enemies damage. Also  there is that +5 mov gambit that is likely going to be busted.

Edith: i missread, the battalion does not seems to take damage instead of the unit, but alongside it. Then it depend on how good gambit are.

Edited June 1, 2019 by Flere210

[Shadow Mir]

On 5/31/2019 at 6:35 PM, Flere210 said:

This 100% depend on the avoid formula. That skill would be golden on someone that can stack avoid bonuses untill most enemies have less than 10% chance to hit. Fates made dodgetanking difficult and subaki himself was not built for dodgtanking so it was just a case of bad match imo.

Also i assume that battalion will be an huge thing in the game, so i am tempted to put Felix's one in a low tier unless there is an equivalent to the langrisser ranger(a very strong class that can't use troops), in that case, Felix would likely be the best ranger.

 

But in general i think that evaluating partial aspect whitout the full picture is useless. Wonder guard is the best ability in the game unless you consider that only Shedinja has it.

The thing is, from what I heard, this game is unlikely to be more friendly to dodgetanking than Fates was - and Fates wasn't exactly friendly to it in the first place. With that in mind, my stance that Ferdinand's personal is a lot of trouble to maintain for little reward only gets stronger.

[Cysx]

5 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

The thing is, from what I heard

What did you hear?

[Shadow Mir]

52 minutes ago, Cysx said:

What did you hear?

I meant "read". And it was on the previous page.

[Cysx]

4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

I meant "read". And it was on the previous page.

So... what I posted then? If anything it seems close to Genealogy, with weapon weight potentially completely killing one's AS and thus avoid... but paired with FE6 accuracy instead, where values get so low that static bonuses can almost single-handedly make a character a dodgetank. It also depends on what RN system they use. A big part of Fates not being dodge tanking friendly was its rng.

Earlygame dodgetanking very clearly won't be a thing, terrain aside, that much I think is clear. Formulas are too low, and weapons are too heavy(5 weight for an iron sword, 10 for steel, and no constitution to speak of). But past that, who knows.

Edited June 2, 2019 by Cysx

[Shadow Mir]

14 hours ago, Cysx said:

So... what I posted then? If anything it seems close to Genealogy, with weapon weight potentially completely killing one's AS and thus avoid... but paired with FE6 accuracy instead, where values get so low that static bonuses can almost single-handedly make a character a dodgetank. It also depends on what RN system they use. A big part of Fates not being dodge tanking friendly was its rng.

Earlygame dodgetanking very clearly won't be a thing, terrain aside, that much I think is clear. Formulas are too low, and weapons are too heavy(5 weight for an iron sword, 10 for steel, and no constitution to speak of). But past that, who knows.

Yeah, that. Personally, I get Shadow Dragon vibes from the evade formula. And dodgetanking was pretty much a completely unviable strategy in that game.

[BergelomeuSantos]

Honestly? I think this game will either follow a more ''consistent'' FE14 evade system or be more similar to Awakening. In other words, it would follow a ''break point'' of some sort (Example: >50% have a way better chance to hit than a <50%, unlike Fates' ''50/50 even with a 99% hit'').