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How to make Non-Mounted units better without taking the fun away.

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1 minute ago, Shadow Mir said:

Path of Radiance didn't nerf mounted units indoors, from what I remember.

it gave them -2 MoV

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18 minutes ago, Shrimperor said:

it gave them -2 MoV

That was Radiant Dawn. I don't remember move penalties for mounted units indoors in Path of Radiance.

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25 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

That was Radiant Dawn. I don't remember move penalties for mounted units indoors in Path of Radiance.

*checks*
huh, you are right. My mistake.

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4 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Path of Radiance didn't nerf mounted units indoors, from what I remember.

It did nerf flying units indoors by cutting their movement; that I'm certain of at least. I can't remember if cavalry units also got a movement cut indoors, since it's been a long time since I played the game. Radiant Dawn applied it to all mounted units, but I'm almost certain Path of Radiance applied it to flying units at least.

One thing I do remember Path of Radiance having that helped non-mounted units was better map design overall: more chokepoints, defense chapters, etc. It wasn't perfect, but it helped. 

Edited by vanguard333

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It did nerf flying units indoors by cutting their movement; that I'm certain of at least.

It doesn't cut their movements indoors. If you do a quick youtube search of a speedrun or something you can confirm it for yourself. I'd provide a video myself if I was sure that it didn't mess with the formatting, but it shouldn't really matter.

 

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One thing I do remember Path of Radiance having that helped non-mounted units was better map design overall: more chokepoints, defense chapters, etc. It wasn't perfect, but it helped.

PoR is really not favorable to unmounted units. It's easy enough of a game that any character can kill enemies, but mounted units are far superior to just about every other unit in the game. Magic units have their place, but otherwise mounted units have some of the best combat stats and a broken form of canto. It doesn't help that Paladin is the only class with a good Occult skill besides Ike's. The only thing that unmounted units have going for them is that they don't need to see that much combat to be functional combat units because of bonus experience.

Edited by samthedigital

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Keep all the typical nerfs of mounted units HOWEVER, making it so they can be eliminated using skills. That is to say remove canto as a default thing all mounts can do, make it a typical skill with more limited useage (preferably in a system with skill scrolls over class skills so it can be distributed but not easily accessed from early in the game). Implement the dismount feature, but have some kind of Dressage skill that lets units use their mounts in doors. Suddenly the balancing aspect of mounted units is that they can't do all their really best things without quickly filling up skill slots/capacity. This solves the problem of keeping all their fun stuff without making said fun stuff overpowered.

I'd also bring back rescue, which is a buff for mounted units overall, but actually also makes infantry more viable. Because A) it gives mounts a job to do that doesn't involve killing things (meaning infantry will be more likely to do this) B) Mounted units are harder to rescue (I'd actually change this to impossible, or impossible without a specific skill) which puts them at a greater risk C) In off turns it can effectively give infantry mounted movement getting them closer to the action quicker.

Edited by Jotari

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On 12/9/2019 at 11:28 PM, samthedigital said:

PoR is really not favorable to unmounted units. It's easy enough of a game that any character can kill enemies, but mounted units are far superior to just about every other unit in the game. Magic units have their place, but otherwise mounted units have some of the best combat stats and a broken form of canto. It doesn't help that Paladin is the only class with a good Occult skill besides Ike's. The only thing that unmounted units have going for them is that they don't need to see that much combat to be functional combat units because of bonus experience.

I am aware of all that. I was just pointing out one thing Path of Radiance did that helped. Pointing out the ways in which Path of Radiance was still imbalanced does not dismiss a thing it did that helped. 

On 12/12/2019 at 7:07 AM, Jotari said:

I'd also bring back rescue, which is a buff for mounted units overall, but actually also makes infantry more viable. Because A) it gives mounts a job to do that doesn't involve killing things (meaning infantry will be more likely to do this) B) Mounted units are harder to rescue (I'd actually change this to impossible, or impossible without a specific skill) which puts them at a greater risk C) In off turns it can effectively give infantry mounted movement getting them closer to the action quicker.

I agree; bringing back rescue would probably be a really good idea. 

I'd change it to impossible, rather than impossible without a specific skill. Mounted units being rescued doesn't make much sense (how'd they get the mount to also ride on the mount, or am I overthinking it?)

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5 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

I'd change it to impossible, rather than impossible without a specific skill. Mounted units being rescued doesn't make much sense (how'd they get the mount to also ride on the mount, or am I overthinking it?)

Portable horse: pocket edition, obviously.

Seriously, i don't really think mounts are a huge issue. Maybe if you look at it from an efficiency point of view, which i doubt the devs do, since they can't beat their own games.

I mean, you could take the FE6 route with swordmasters with crit, but doesn't that seem a little overcompensated?

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I am aware of all that. I was just pointing out one thing Path of Radiance did that helped. Pointing out the ways in which Path of Radiance was still imbalanced does not dismiss a thing it did that helped. 

You didn't point out anything that helped. Mounted units perform better in every single situation you mentioned. A mounted unit can get to a chokepoint faster or reposition after attacking. Your claim is dubious too considering there are only 4 defend maps out of the 30+ maps in the game, and there isn't really any reason to stay at a chokepoint in most maps considering we want to clear the objective rather than stand still. Enemies in PoR are rather weak, so it's not very difficult to do that either. Mages are useful for certain things too if we want to play quickly, but you can't really make the argument that PoR did anything to help given that they removed some of the tools that made mages good.

Edited by samthedigital

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Wyvern riders can only attack ground units and damage is reduced by 80% against archers. Pegasus riders can attack anything but damage is reduced by 50% against flyers, 80% against archers, and 25% against other ground units. Gryphon riders can only attack other flyers. Some enemies get an exclusive skill called Vulcan Cannon, which nullifies a flying foe's avoid and defense regardless if mounted or not.

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I liked how FE5 handled mounted units, by forcing them to dismount in indoor areas (some maps have a mix of indoor/outdoor segments) and giving them a stat penalty for dismounting. I mean if you think about it, it's kinda weird to bring a Pegasus, Horse or Wyvern indoors (how do they even fit inside?), especially if it's some sort of stealth mission like in Mikoto's map in Fates or the prison chapter in FE9 since they'd make a fk ton of noise. Though instead of forcing them to use Swords, I feel like they should be able to use w/e weapon they specialize in.

Weather effects could also be used to make fliers not as powerful too, for example maybe have some maps use the dragon vein mechanic in Hinoka's chapter where fliers have decreased movement and foot/horse units have increased movement due to stronger winds or something like that. Terrain penalties also helps balance out horse units too, since it restricts their movement (most notable in 3H where there was quite a bit of terrain like stairs and forest tiles that penalized horseback units).

If we talking about nerfing the growth rates of fliers (since 3H did nerf the growths of Cavalier units), then Pegasus Knights really should have a Defense and/or HP penalty (they usually focus on dodge tanking usually) and Wyvern Lords should have some sort of Res and/or Speed penalty to give players at least some incentive to use a Pegasus Knight over a Wyvern Lord (Wyvern classes are generally supposed to be flying tanks, so there is no reason they should be fast + bulky while having some of the best movement in the game). 

Edited by Lunarly

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Something else to be noted is that some games lock certain weapons or terrain behind infantry. You can't use ballista's or magic orbs unless you are on foot (or at least it should be). Another example is stairs or impassable terrain for mounted units. Granted this is mitigated by dismounting, but it would be interesting to see it if you couldn't dismount. 

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-Change the way turn order works, to limit enemy phase tanking. Simultaneous turns are one way of doing this

-Make paladin-type units have to pay for armor\shields (these can add protection at the cost of weight\AS, for example)

-Less open terrain, and map design adjustments in general to promote more careful advance. Weather, FoW, ambush+scout skills could maybe come in here

-Giving mounts their own stats + costs for replacement\maintenance

-In conjunction with the above, being able to dismount before moving\attacking, to protect one's mount or suffer less movement penalty in rough terrain

-Disallowing canto if the mounted unit took damage in a combat encounter on their move, or other similar restrictions on its use

-Giving infantry specific skills and niches (eg more resistance to magic, lower terrain penalties, spears that impair cavalry attack) and other stat differences

-Combined\dynamic objectives that force you to split your army, eg escort + defend point, or rescue + escort + escape, or seize + capture/defeat boss.

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Another way to nerf canto while still keeping it, would be to decide where to go before engaging in battle. Ie, after you select attack, the movement option appears, you select where you want to go and then the battle commence and the unit moves away afterwards. After all, the logic here is that the mounts are giving the character more momentum so they can escape or go somewhere else after attacking. It's not them being able to stop, reconsider, and then go somewhere else after battle which an infantry inexplicably can't do. How the battle went down shouldn't be able to influence where the unit ends up. In practical effect this would only come up when an engagement doesn't go as expected and a unit whiffs an attack or something. So it might be pretty annoying and people would hate it. But it could be better for the game.

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I think a good way to do it is do something similar to what Thracia did but...better handled. In Thracia, mounted units are dismounted indoors. It makes sense, there's no way in hell you'd be flying a wyvern around in a mansion or running around with multiple horses in a small jail. The issue in how Thracia handled it is with the fact that all of them essentially become myrmidons and lose their primary weapon. Its stupid, and is the one thing Id really change.

FE 3H brought back this idea a small bit with dismounting, and with lowering cavalry movement in certain sections like stairs to encourage using it. But it didnt really work in theory. I think the best idea to run with, is to just force dismount indoors. This way it gives a section where your dedicated infantry would shine, while not punishing your mounted units.

As far as non indoor maps go, More obstacles and ways to restrict movement. In an actual battlefield, there would be various set ups to help deter cavalry. Spiked barricades, spears stuck in the ground, etc. 3H had a good step as well with certain paths being harder for cavalry to use, so Id use this more in the more open battlefields to begin with. Though I dont think punishing Cavalry too much would be a good idea on these maps, as Cavalry being dominant on such a map still makes sense.

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