Is Power Creep Justified?

[XRay]

I am not sure about the first vote. Personally, I lean towards Feh has a decent level of power creep, but if so many people are complaining about it, then I think the second option is pretty reasonable too. If lots of people are complaining about power creep and wanting to quit, then even if I do not feel the power creep directly, I do not think it is wrong to say it has too much power creep either since I do want players to stick around.

For the second vote, since I rarely use my favorite waifus anyway and I care more about performance, I went with the second option and would prefer them to be released later with more a more badass stat distribution and skill set.

1 hour ago, daisy jane said:

Well considering the only problem is Trevant is that he doesn't have a Prf - thus he could have any kind of weapon - i don't see how he's butchered. 

Yeah, as long as he has a reasonable stat line, I think it is fine. He might not be Cordelia, but they can still do different things. And even if some units' stat distributions overlap and are pretty much do the same job, it is not always bad to have more of them especially if they fit your play style. I have a ton of Firesweep archers for example, cause I just love that play style.

[eclipse]

9 hours ago, Hilda said:

Also the fact that one isnt willing to retouch old Refines that have allready became outdated and are underperforming (Jaffar comes to mind and alot of others)

I can make Jaffar's useful, albeit niche that it is.  Can't say the same about Takumi's.

1 hour ago, Gregster101 said:

Please don't say that. I already had gotten enough people taunting me that Jill will be a mediocre lance flier ghb, I don't need another one

Also, if Gerik and Raven could be axe units in Heroes despite starting out as sword units in their respective games, what the hell is stopping Jill from being an axe flier? We haven't gotten a new axe flier in the regular summoning pool since launch, she should be an axe flier dammit!

Jill is also more safe from being butchered than like Haar by virtue of being an attractive female.

1. She'll probably have an axe.
2. Not my fault that you can't figure out what to do with Haar (even if he fights with Gerome/Cherche over his niche).

[daisy jane]

1 hour ago, Gregster101 said:

Please don't say that. I already had gotten enough people taunting me that Jill will be a mediocre lance flier ghb, I don't need another one

Also, if Gerik and Raven could be axe units in Heroes despite starting out as sword units in their respective games, what the hell is stopping Jill from being an axe flier? We haven't gotten a new axe flier in the regular summoning pool since launch, she should be an axe flier dammit!

Jill is also more safe from being butchered than like Haar by virtue of being an attractive female.

 

but Haar isn't butchered. 
I've seen some nasty Haar's. 

Honestly i get people like summonable units because IVS and all the rest and people like the GHB Meme going on but there are a lot of powerhouse grail unit - without prfs i might add, and you can customize them however it suits your playstyle.

[Gregster101]

14 minutes ago, daisy jane said:

 

but Haar isn't butchered. 
I've seen some nasty Haar's. 

Honestly i get people like summonable units because IVS and all the rest and people like the GHB Meme going on but there are a lot of powerhouse grail unit - without prfs i might add, and you can customize them however it suits your playstyle.

But AR is cancer, and I don't want to go through AR again after how much hell it took to get Arvis to +10

[daisy jane]

5 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

But AR is cancer, and I don't want to go through AR again after how much hell it took to get Arvis to +10

 

and that. i do understand and agree with LOL
however - even as a demote. it could take a year+ to get enough for +10.  (which is basically the same amount of getting grails. just saying).

Edited February 16, 2020 by daisy jane

[NegativeExponents-]

6 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

But AR is cancer, and I don't want to go through AR again after how much hell it took to get Arvis to +10

Agreed. And even then, it's not like AR gives out generous helpings of grails. Where is it that people are supposedly getting grails like candy to be "poofing" all these +10 grails unit?

Edited February 16, 2020 by NegativeExponents-

[XRay]

2 minutes ago, NegativeExponents- said:

Agreed. And even then, it's not like AR gives out generous helpings of grails. Where is it that people are supposedly getting grails like candy to be "poofing" all these +10 grails unit?

Mostly just us veterans cause we do not have to pay the high Grail tax for some of the older units.

[NegativeExponents-]

Just now, XRay said:

Mostly just us veterans cause we do not have to pay the high Grail tax for some of the older units.

Yeah, but that would only apply to certain characters like Masked Marth or Xander who got tons of reruns. Can't really say the same for new grail unit that comes along like everyone seems to do.

[Gregster101]

6 minutes ago, daisy jane said:

 

and that. i do understand and agree with LOL
however - even as a demote. it could take a year+ to get enough for +10.  (which is basically the same amount of getting grails. just saying).

I have 1,898 orbs as of this writing. I'm sure I'll have more than enough orbs to +10 Jill by the time she's added

[daisy jane]

Just now, NegativeExponents- said:

Yeah, but that would only apply to certain characters like Masked Marth or Xander who got tons of reruns. Can't really say the same for new grail unit that comes along like everyone seems to do.

 

I don't have lots of Masked Marths (only 1). and I as of yet have only spent 100 grails - (for the hero path thing). so. playing from day 1 - i've got about 6000+ grails. so that's enough for 2? 3? units?

[XRay]

1 minute ago, NegativeExponents- said:

Yeah, but that would only apply to certain characters like Masked Marth or Xander who got tons of reruns. Can't really say the same for new grail unit that comes along like everyone seems to do.

 

They probably rank high consistently.

1 minute ago, daisy jane said:

I don't have lots of Masked Marths (only 1). and I as of yet have only spent 100 grails - (for the hero path thing). so. playing from day 1 - i've got about 6000+ grails. so that's enough for 2? 3? units?

That is impressive. I am not sure if I have that much.

[eclipse]

16 minutes ago, Gregster101 said:

But AR is cancer, and I don't want to go through AR again after how much hell it took to get Arvis to +10

So. . .don't do it competitively?  I throw in whatever works half-coherently as a team, and sit comfortably at tier 18-19.  You'll get SOMETHING just for showing up, even if it's once a season.

[NegativeExponents-]

2 minutes ago, daisy jane said:

 

I don't have lots of Masked Marths (only 1). and I as of yet have only spent 100 grails - (for the hero path thing). so. playing from day 1 - i've got about 6000+ grails. so that's enough for 2? 3? units?

Without knowing the exact amount I'll just treat that as 6000. That's enough for ALMOST 2 assuming you only have 1 copy of unit like in the case of your Masked Marth

[Dark Holy Elf]

Power-creep is inevitable in this type of game. It doesn't bother me.

I also don't think it's that big in practice. My core team still has a bunch of units from year 1. Reinhardt in particularly is still ridiculous nearly three years later.

For the second question: I'd much, much rather have my favourites in the game from the start, back when I was most engaged and excited about the game.

[Water Mage]

Many people here are saying powercreep is inevitable in Gacha games, but look at a FGO, an old Gacha game with literally almost no power creep. 
That being said I can understand wanting to make units more appealing, but it feels like they went overboard.

[NegativeExponents-]

37 minutes ago, Water Mage said:

Many people here are saying powercreep is inevitable in Gacha games, but look at a FGO, an old Gacha game with literally almost no power creep. 
That being said I can understand wanting to make units more appealing, but it feels like they went overboard.

Nah I feel the same. Tales of Rays is a good example too. There isn't anything I can think of that would constitute as power creep. Every character and weapon is balanced to where there isn't anyone that's outright superior to another character. They introduce new things without the need of invalidating previous ones. You really do just play for favorites, fanservice (male fanservice is especially good here compared to others with them even splitting summer into a banner for boys and a banner for girls), and the cross-game character interactions, and collabs (the recent Gintama one got me good). Too bad it became japanese only a long time ago and not many get a chance to experience it because of that.

Edited February 16, 2020 by NegativeExponents-

[eclipse]

36 minutes ago, Water Mage said:

Many people here are saying powercreep is inevitable in Gacha games, but look at a FGO, an old Gacha game with literally almost no power creep. 
That being said I can understand wanting to make units more appealing, but it feels like they went overboard.

Oh, there is.  Just take a look at the older CEs.  It's not as apparent, but it's there.

[Water Mage]

1 minute ago, eclipse said:

Oh, there is.  Just take a look at the older CEs.  It's not as apparent, but it's there.

To be fair CEs aren’t as important, impactful or game changing as actual playable characters are and some old CEs are still really strong for example Kaleidoscope, 2040, Poster Girl, VH(the 3 hit invincibility one), Sumo and Aerial Drive. There hasn’t been a new CE that outclasses those yet.

 

7 minutes ago, NegativeExponents- said:

Nah I feel the same. Tales of Rays is a good example too. There isn't anything I can think of that would constitute as power creep. Every character and weapon is balanced to where there isn't anyone that's outright superior to another character. They introduce new things without the need of invalidating previous ones. You really do just play for favorites, fanservice (male fanservice is especially good here compared to others with them even splitting summer into a banner for boys and a banner for girls), and the cross-game character interactions, and collabs (the recent Gintama one got me good). Too bad it's japanese only and not many get a chance to experience it because of that.

I think the problem with FEH’s powercreep is because of the stats and not the skills. If unit BST stayed the same as it was during lauch, powercreep wouldn’t be such a problem. Also the fact that they release 3 to 4 new units per banner actually hurt more than help because they needed to make all of those new skills and stats and the meta grew out of control fast. If they released 2 to 1 new units per banner it would have been so much better, it would give the game more longevity and the meta wouldn’t grow as fast. Hell, the season banners really should have only one unit.

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, Water Mage said:

To be fair CEs aren’t as important, impactful or game changing as actual playable characters are and some old CEs are still really strong for example Kaleidoscope, 2040, Poster Girl, VH(the 3 hit invincibility one), Sumo and Aerial Drive. There hasn’t been a new CE that outclasses those yet.

Those CEs are the exception to the rule, sadly.  Hence why power creep does exist, even if it isn't as apparent as having all 1-3 characters be completely obsolete.

[NegativeExponents-]

12 minutes ago, Water Mage said:

I think the problem with FEH’s powercreep is because of the stats and not the skills. If unit BST stayed the same as it was during lauch, powercreep wouldn’t be such a problem. Also the fact that they release 3 to 4 new units per banner actually hurt more than help because they needed to make all of those new skills and stats and the meta grew out of control fast. If they released 2 to 1 new units per banner it would have been so much better, it would give the game more longevity and the meta wouldn’t grow as fast. Hell, the season banners really should have only one unit.

I don't think it even has to be the same as gen 1. It could keep the current bst standards if everyone else's was just brought up too but they really loath giving significant upgrades to past characters.

I don't think there's any issue with releasing that many characters. The problem is that they have the same mindset you just gave me. The "we need new skills in every banner" is the terrible part. If they just weren't so afraid of repeating skills we could have them be more accessible and slow down the rate of power creep instead of having issues like joint hone spd still only available on NY!Gunthra and now soon to be power creeped by the pact skills.

Edited February 16, 2020 by NegativeExponents-

[Water Mage]

8 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Those CEs are the exception to the rule, sadly.  Hence why power creep does exist, even if it isn't as apparent as having all 1-3 characters be completely obsolete.

Even so, unless it is for 3 turn farming or specific set ups in Challenge Quests CEs barely matter. A character with perform mostly the same whenever they have a CE equipped or not.

[Othin]

If you get two copies of a TT unit, you need 2,700 grails to get them to +10. If you get five copies of a GHB unit (three initial and two revivals), you need 1,350 grails to get them to +10. Which is still pricey, but it's only half as much.

Personally I'm decently active in AR - hit T21 about a year ago, been putting in some effort without fussing too much. I've been able to get BK and Aversa to +10, Naesala to +9, and Winter Jaffar to +8 so far. Naesala has been sitting at +9 for a while because I figure he should get another revival eventually, probably a Grand Hero Party in about six months.

[Hilda]

4 hours ago, eclipse said:

I can make Jaffar's useful, albeit niche that it is.  Can't say the same about Takumi's.

1. She'll probably have an axe.
2. Not my fault that you can't figure out what to do with Haar (even if he fights with Gerome/Cherche over his niche).

I use Jaffar too in PVE from time to time, he is nice there with his splash damage. But outside of PVE he is (mostly) trash. I had him in AR Defense Teams sometime, but why use Jaffar when you can just simply opt for a Razzle Dazzle nuke that hits harder, does the same and only gets countered by a specific skill.

[eclipse]

1 minute ago, Hilda said:

I use Jaffar too in PVE from time to time, he is nice there with his splash damage. But outside of PVE he is (mostly) trash. I had him in AR Defense Teams sometime, but why use Jaffar when you can just simply opt for a Razzle Dazzle nuke that hits harder, does the same and only gets countered by a specific skill.

The fact that Jaffar can safely initiate on mages is far more useful than a random Pass skill.

[Othin]

2 minutes ago, eclipse said:

The fact that Jaffar can safely initiate on mages is far more useful than a random Pass skill.

Takumi's refined weapon doesn't have Pass - it trades it for terrain immunity and Warp Powder at >50% HP.