Personal weapons or class only weapons?

[Fates-Blade]

Which do you think is better and why?

Personal weapons are prf weapons like:

Marreeta's Sword

(Thracia 776) Earth Sword

Lughnasadh

Caladbolg

or (Thracia 776) Brave Lance.

 

And class only weapons are weapons like:

Tower Bow - Archers and Snipers only.

Wo Dao - Myrmidons, Swordmasters and Lyn only.

Amatsu - Myrmidons and Swordmasters only.

Nosferatu - Dark Mages and Sorcerers only.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Fates-Blade

[Gorgonath]

I think I like more the latter. The former could feel a bit unnatural at a certain point, or even silly, with all the units having personal weapons they only can use. There's no real reason why other people should not be able to wield them. Class weapons, instead, cannot be used by anyone, with the excuse they would not be able to wield them. This is perfect in order to avoid op combinations ( think for example of a hero with very high str that could be able to use a high crit sword, which instead is normally given only to swordmasters, who generally will have lower str). The only occurrence where I think personal weapons would be fully justified is when the plot of the lore of the world justifies it perfectly. Some people may only care about gameplay, but then it wouldn't even make sense to have personal weapons, which do not give nothing in terms of gameplay, but only in terms of units' charactarization and lore.

[Alastor15243]

Personal weapons are better. The only way it matters in most cases is if there's a class changing system (since most people with personal weapons have a personal class), and I see no reason to punish the main character for changing classes by not letting them use their personal weapon in anything but the bog standard lord class.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Alastor15243

[Fabulously Olivier]

Personal weapons. 

 

 

In fact, I'd love a system for forging personal weapons, with costum stats, skins, and colors. The main characters can still have their story prfs, but this would add personalization to the rest of the army. 

[Whitfield1999]

I kind of don't like the idea of personal weapons since A. they kind of don't make sense and B. It adds way to much value to units when the point of fire emblem (in my opinion) is that you use units when they are useful then if they die or they fall off, they are replaceable with other units. Perfs give some units heavy favoritism to some units, which makes the temptation to reset and the urge to not diversify you army way to strong and that kind of bogs down the game imo.

What I do like the idea of is that one specific type of weapons (axes, swords etc.) are tied to a specific class. For example in mystery of the emblem, Heroes can only use swords and cavaliers can only use lances when mounted (the only exception to this rule is when mounted units dismount they turn into the Knight class and they use swords). Since there isn't a weapon triangle this isn't as limiting as you may think. 

This gives classes like armor knights a unique niche since they are the only unmounted unit in the game who can use lances, which is good because you can bring gradivus (the legendary lance) to the final chapter using armor knights. Same deal with fighters in book 1. they're the only units you have that can use axes so that gives them a certain niche as well.

tl;dr: me no like perfs me like weapons tied to class

[𝙵ᴇɴʀᴇɪʀ]

Personal weapons usually give more freedom in terms of utility compared to class-restricted ones, due to being able to be used my multiple classes in case re-classing is an available option. they also tend to make each character unique in its own way, while eventually providing different playstyles based on the unit's class, and either player phase or enemy phase strategies.

Class weapons, due to having an obvious restriction, cannot be compared to PRF ones in terms of utility unless you're able to swap them between different units.

and even then, if there's weapon ranks involved, it might take a while before a unit can actually use an high rank weapon, making it overall less useful unless enough time is invested in order to improve a unit's weapon rank to allow it to wield a specific weapon.

[X-Naut]

I don't mind either, the former can give units unique niches and the latter can be a factor in class balancing. That said, in the latter case I'd like to see more use of movement-type only restriction, such as making longbows and some swords infantry-only.

[Ertrick36]

Really situational.  It just depends on if the limit is dependent on a certain bloodline, race, or expertise.

Characters like Sigurd, Lyn, or Marth are specifically blessed to be capable of wielding certain weapons.  Tylfing responds only to major Baldo blood, the Katti blades seem to have a will of their own that only allow Lyn to wield them, and Marth is the latest heir of the Altean royal family, which I believe is what is required to wield Falchion.  Sometimes the rules are arbitrary - why does Emmeryn not wield Falchion, for example.  But nevertheless, prf weapons are clearly meant for specific individuals, not just any skilled warrior.

But in terms of class weapons, I see it as a matter of being specialized/proficient with those weapons.  For example, longbows are often exclusive to archers and snipers - horse-mounted archers and those who use bows as a secondary weapon (e.g. assassins in Awakening) can't wield them.  This actually has historical backing, as horse archers had to use special shortbows to be efficient in combat - trying to draw a longbow on horseback is too cumbersome for the vast majority of humans, and due to their size (they were almost always roughly the same height as the wielder) they really could only be used in a mostly stationary position, limiting their use in the hands of a duelist or auxiliary (that is, one involved with the military, but not molded into the military's ranks).

Other weapons had specific purposes.  For example, pikes were used mostly as weapons of defense against charges - they were too unwieldy to be used as offensive weapons, at least in the hands of your average pikeman.  As such, troops trained for specific roles were trained to use certain weapons that others wouldn't.  And in the context of high fantasy, it makes sense in a game like Fire Emblem: Awakening for dark magic to be exclusive to dark mages - maybe even with the training, it takes a certain loadout to be able to use the weaponry (a loadout which only dark mages and sorcerers have access to).

 

But if you're asking which type I like more, it might be class weapons.  I like when they actually go for historical accuracy in this regard, like how I outlined.  Some prf weapons look neat, but others - particular those in later entries - look kind of ridiculous.  Also not necessarily a fan of the idea of arbitrary favoritism.  Every FE game has a slew of warriors and mages that are just as good at fighting as the nobility that wield holy weapons.  The only exceptions to this are Genealogy and Fates, where high quality warriors of humbler origins are more difficult to find because the writers were way too obsessed with jerking off the narrative of the nobility being godly beings.  Though of course, every FE game needs at least one character with a godly weapon that can easily slay the overtly evil villain guy at the end of the game.

I don't mind the existence of this fantastical element, but I prefer when it's supplemented with a more historically accurate reason for discerning between nobility and the more common folk, or at least with historically accurate sentiments, e.g. the notion that the poor aren't capable of governing entire fiefs or kingdoms.  But maybe that's a bit too cynical and real for a game like FE.  I'm not sure, because Echoes was approaching this notion, and it's almost implied in Three Houses through supports with Lorenz and commoner character (though he's actually one of the nicer nobles, believe it or not).  Maybe I'm just weird and I'm liking some elements of FE for entirely wrong reasons.

[lightcosmo]

Character prfs are more to my liking. A weapon being special to someone is reasonable, yet still interesting in its own way. Rather than, Wo Dao is locked to swordmaster in FE6 just because.

[twilitfalchion]

I prefer personal weapons, like Shiida's Wing Spear or the rapier from earlier games, like the Archanea games or the Elibe titles, where it was tied to a specific character. For example, the rapier in Awakening made little sense to be Lord exclusive, as it was a sword like any other sword.

Edited June 7, 2020 by twilitfalchion

[Shadow Mir]

5 hours ago, Whitfield1999 said:

I kind of don't like the idea of personal weapons since A. they kind of don't make sense and B. It adds way to much value to units when the point of fire emblem (in my opinion) is that you use units when they are useful then if they die or they fall off, they are replaceable with other units. Perfs give some units heavy favoritism to some units, which makes the temptation to reset and the urge to not diversify you army way to strong and that kind of bogs down the game imo.

Bold: I honestly think that mentality is beyond dated - to say nothing of just not working well, if at all, in actual practice, as about the only units that that could apply to are the Jagen units, and even some of those can last the whole game. Look at Binding Blade. It has one of the biggest casts short of Radiant Dawn, Revelation, and New Mystery, but I have very little incentive to use the replacement units for the sake of diversity since most of them are either shit or outclassed. For example: Oujay. Not only do Deke and Rutger come before him, but Fir comes not too long after he does. To be fair, he is fairly easy to get up to speed if you want to use him, but that doesn't change the fact that I'd have trouble finding a reason to use him when he's worse off than three sword infantry units.

EDIT: As to the topic, I prefer personal weapons.

Quote

And class weapons would be:

Sublime Creator Sword - Enlightened One only.

Exalted Falchion - Great Lords only.

Colussus Axe - Fighters and Warriors only.

Omega Yato - Valla Noble only (there actually isn't one in Fates).

Tbh, a better example of class weapons would be the Amatsu and Sol Katti in Awakening.

Edited June 7, 2020 by Shadow Mir

[whase]

Depends, I guess. Let's consider these two situations:

1)
Roy: "Hey Fir, those bandits were just being nice because they want to steal your super expensive Wo Dao, join us we're fighting those bandits."
Fir: "Oh thanks, I'll join you."
Roy: "Okay, now give me your sword, Rutger can use that much better."

2)
Alm: "Oh I found a sword only I can wield, guess I'm just that special."

Yeah, I'm all for team prf weapons.

(Obviously these are not direct quotes, just how it comes across to me.)

[Hawkwing]

As long as neither are common amongst the cast/classes and the boost in question makes sense for the character or class in question, I am fine with either.

I don't mind the lords getting exclusive weapons, for instance, as they're mandatory for the story maps and the extra damage can be helpful in certain situations. Nor do I mind something like Caeda's Wing Spear, as while it can be overpowered, she is responsible for recruiting a fair amount of enemy characters, meaning it is likely that she'll be in the range of several enemy units from time to time. Meanwhile, I'm not the biggest fan of Three Houses limiting the legendary weapons to those with crests, as the ones who can wield them are not always the units who would get the most out of the weapon, though their low durability and high cost to repair help keep them in check (and New Game + crest stones can remove said limit).

Similar deal with class exclusive weapons. Giving the longbow to archers and snipers helps give them an (limited) advantage over mounted bow users, and weapons unique to myrmidons and swordmasters can make up for being sword-locked. On the other hand, Awakening locking dark magic behind dark mages despite there not being a ton of differences between them and regular mages was a rather pointless limitation. Done well, class only weapons can give a limited class another niche, while if done badly it just makes an already good class even stronger.

They can both give a character or class a useful leg up when done right, though when executed poorly they just make one unit or class more beneficial than another. At the end of the day I don't mind a game having either, though largely because rarely does a weapon define a character or classes usefulness. It can give them an extra niche or a helpful boost in power, but there are several factors outside of weaponry that determine how worthwhile a character or class is.

[Sir Orson]

I'm no fan of too much restrictions, when it comes to weapons, but of the two Options I like personal weapons better, to give a Lord like Eirika, a bit of a buff , to get started. But It'd realy be a limited buff.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

On 6/7/2020 at 1:36 PM, Shadow Mir said:

Tbh, a better example of class weapons would be the Amatsu and Sol Katti in Awakening.

Seconded, as the Sublime Creator Sword isn't even class-locked. Other actual class-locked weapons include Longbows (Archer/Sniper-exclusive in several titles) and the Shamshir (locked to Myrmidon, Swordmaster, Assassin, and Eirika-classes).

Building off of this, I've considered a potential weapons system, where some weapon types have "subtypes" limited to certain classes. Ex. "Katanas" as a high-crit sword subtype that's limited to Myrmidon/Swordmaster, and "Knives" as a ranged sword subtype that Thieves and Rogues can use. Similarly, Bows can have "Longbow" and "Crossbow" subtypes. Awakening did this, to an extent, with Longbows, swords like the Amatsu, and Dark Magic (limited to Dark Mage and Sorcerer). A future game with a single "Magic" rank also bring back a "Light" subtype, usable by Mages and Sages.

Bottom-line, class-exclusive weapons are a way to create more distinctions between classes, while character-exclusive weapons reinforce differences between characters. You can have both of them in a game, if you want. I mean, why not?

[Topaz Light]

None of the examples of "class-locked" weapons you gave are actually class-locked at all. The Colossus Axe isn't even a real weapon, and all Falchion and Yato variants can be wielded by their associated characters in any class that permits the use of swords; they're even considered E-rank for these purposes!

Shanty Pete's 1st Mate has kinda already covered this, but actual class-locked weapons would be things like the Wo Dao/Shamshir (exclusive to Myrmidon-line classes, plus Lyn and Eirika in their respective games), Longbows (exclusive to Archers and Snipers), or, in Awakening, Rapiers, which are restricted to only Lords, Great Lords, and Lodestars.

As for me personally, I tend to prefer that both types of weapons only account for a small portion of the total set of weapons in an installment, but I think I'm more amenable to having more class-exclusive weapons than character-exclusive. For character-exclusive weapons, I think they should be kept really rare to retain their novelty, and weapons should only be assigned such exclusivity when there's a good plot or lore reason for it.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Topaz Light

[Jotari]

On 6/7/2020 at 12:53 PM, Fates-Blade said:

And class weapons would be:

Sublime Creator Sword - Enlightened One only.

Exalted Falchion - Great Lords only.

Colussus Axe - Fighters and Warriors only.

Omega Yato - Valla Noble only (there actually isn't one in Fates).

I find your examples here rather baffling. Namely that none of them are actually class exclusive weapons while class exclusive wepaons have existed in the series. Have you heard of the Wao Dao? Or maybe the Tower Bow?

[Fates-Blade]

On 7/26/2020 at 2:08 AM, Jotari said:

I find your examples here rather baffling. Namely that none of them are actually class exclusive weapons while class exclusive wepaons have existed in the series. Have you heard of the Wao Dao? Or maybe the Tower Bow?

I forgot to mention that those are for example only, they aren't locked to a class or classes in the games.

I wanted to mention those examples because I thought some of those weapons were pretty OP (Omega Yato, Sublime Creator Sword) and making them class locked would nerf them some, but they really aren't when I look closer so I'll change the examples.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Fates-Blade

[Ocram]

Personally, I prefer soft locked weapons like the Shadow Dragon´s Excalibur. It has the exclusivity of personals and flexibility powered by lore. Having a strong weapon so early gives Merric a nice advantage in the field and tell us that he has something special, in this case, being pure hearted and the student of Wendel, who is also capable of handling the Excalibur due to his experitise with magic. Having a weapon like this, who can chose its wielder, sets a presedent of personal improvement for its wielder, like Ellerean, who at base, can´t use the Excalibur, lorewise because of its lack of compassion but after learning his lesson and honing his skills with magic, becomes worthy, gameplaywise, reching weapon level B.

Now, for class exclusive I feel that weapons ranks and the kind of weapon the class uses serves as a better way of doing exclusivity than letting only a few characters in your army to use them. If anything, they should have soft locks like Excalibur´s, there´s nothing in particular to a lord to make it being able to use a rapier, special if we consider that a class called SWORD MASTER is not able to use one kind of sword (to be fair, it is a dumb name, is more like a title like General than the way you would call a unit; fortress knight makes more sense).

Nosferatu is a wierd case because it has changed a lot throughout the series. However the 3DS ones seems more like a remnant of a different weapon class who is now mixed with the other two than an actual asset of a class. Maybe IS could´ve work a magic tringle with the new Spirts from Hoshido replacing light, anima just as usual based on elements, nosferatu being one of the darks. That way, the norian magic users would be differentiated by using dark magic and the hoshidians spirits, anima is fair game for both but I guess they didn´t wanted to have a slot in the triangle with only one representative and gauntlets weren´t invented yet.

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, Fates-Blade said:

I forgot to mention that those are for example only, they aren't locked to a class or classes in the games.

I wanted to mention those examples because I thought some of those weapons were pretty OP (Omega Yato, Sublime Creator Sword) and making them class locked would nerf them some, but they really aren't when I look closer so I'll change the examples.

Making them class locked would also nerf the reclass ability massively. People already complain as it is that the Yato is a sword meaning there's a bunch of fun classes you could make Corrin that are losing out on using the weapon.