Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Anacybele

The Race Issue: Is it going too far? Has Disney hopped on the train now too?

Recommended Posts

Just now, Karimlan said:

Well, tough. Tell that to people who have been marginalized to insignificance and see how you like their reactions.

Forget about having a code for protest. There is no such thing, not for the people who have been thrown under the boss for so long. I'm not a nu metal guy, but I echo Mudvayne's sentiment for this kinda thinking:

"Middle finger is the flag I wave when I'm silenced!"

Just to be perfectly clear, I'm not suggesting it's fair. It's absolutely not fair. But you have to ask yourself, what's the goal of the protest? Is it to get revenge and spite the people you believe are oppressing you? Or is it to gain support for your cause to fix the unfairness? It's an important question, because you actually can't have both. 

I can totally understand why people who believe they're oppressed would go out and be as obnoxious as possible, but it won't effectively persuade people to help them make the changes they want.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Burklight said:

I can totally understand why people who believe they're oppressed would go out and be as obnoxious as possible, but it won't effectively persuade people to help them make the changes they want.

This is exactly what I've been trying to say this whole time. Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

This is exactly what I've been trying to say this whole time. Thank you.

But whenever I talk about how that point is false, you guys summarily ignore it.

You know that MLK was fucking hated up until his death and after his death right? Afterwards his statements were whitewashed and a way to keep black people down from protesting in any way because the root problem was still ignored.

And its worth repeating: MLK WAS HATED AND WAS SEEN AS AN UPPITY N WORD IN THE 60S, THAT ONLY RACE BAITED AND INCITED VIOLENCE, HE WAS NOT REVERED AT ALL UNTIL MUCH LATER, AND A VERSION OF HIM THAT DIDNT EXIST WAS WHAT WHITE PEOPLE REVERED

Edited by Lord Raven

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

It also doesn't help that dumbasses like Paul Ryan listen to Bulls on Parade as a song to get amped up at the gym... Instead of listening to the line that de la Rocha says repeatedly stating "some of those who work forces... Are the same that burn crosses."

To be fair, the line "some of those who work forces... Are the same that burn crosses" comes from "Killing in the Name Of." But yeah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To be frank, anyone who thought that Colin Kaepernick was out of line isn't qualified to speak on the issue.

 

Because at that point, your problem isn't with the method of protest. It's with their right to protest.

Edited by Fabulously Olivier

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Karimlan said:

To be fair, the line "some of those who work forces... Are the same that burn crosses" comes from "Killing in the Name Of." But yeah.

Oh wow, I somehow got them confused. I haven't listened to rage in a while, but killing in the name of was the song I was talking about lol

 

Also to add to the previous posts, a majority of the country supports the protests... So they are winning people over... Just not your people. Think about that a moment.

Edited by Lord Raven

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think anyone who has not actually had experience with racial discrimination should keep that in mind when debating this topic. It's going to seem a lot less of an issue from the perspective of someone who isn't really forced to live it. Keep that in mind when arguing against those who are obviously personally affected by this topic that some of us are more comfortably distanced from it. It doesn't mean you can't participate, but do stay humble to other people's experiences. 

My concern with the issue right now is that the media and some people are trying to force attention away from the actual issue of racism and brutality by highlighting and making us focus on things like 'well, but some people are looting during the riot' and other particulars to try to discredit conversation about the core problem. There is continuously such a focus on "this is an important topic BUT [...]" and a lot of people are summarily losing sight of the actual issue. Criticizing people who are acting badly is one thing, but not to avoid facing the issue that's underlying all of this.

I am not saying bad things haven't happened during a very impassioned time and some people who genuinely may not even be connected to the movement are taking advantage of the situation in harmful ways, but when we're having a conversation about the disproportionate amount of brutality done against black people in America, I don't think we should allow ourselves to be distracted from considering these very real, life-ending problem by things like "some companies are responding in ways we may or may not personally enjoy." 

I am going to remind everyone here as a final note in this post that this is a highly charged issue for many and I want us to be able to handle it and listen to each other with dignity so we can generally leave more educated and introspective than we came in. That does not mean people cannot be passionate, since this is a close to home issue for many, but please do not give us any reason to need to shut this thread down. If someone is out-of-line and your only emotional response is to get into a mud fight with them, report the user instead and leave the thread and go do something else for yourself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, Specta said:

My concern with the issue right now is that the media and some people are trying to force attention away from the actual issue of racism and brutality by highlighting and making us focus on things like 'well, but some people are looting during the riot' and other particulars to try to discredit conversation about the core problem. There is continuously such a focus on "this is an important topic BUT [...]" and a lot of people are summarily losing sight of the actual issue. Criticizing people who are acting badly is one thing, but not to avoid facing the issue that's underlying all of this.

Fair points all around. I would just like to harp on the emphasized. Among most circles, a statement framed like that almost (i.e, a proviso about looting and vandalism, for instance, shoehorned in) always seems to be used, disingenuously at that, to discredit protests. Which has a salt-to-the-wound effect to the people who are airing their beef. 

Noah's "social contract" premise presented in the video I linked on my initial post encapsulates the concept perfectly. Why would people adhere to a contract when the other party involved made the contract null and void by repeated acts of bad faith?

Edited by Karimlan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Specta, you pretty much summed up what I also intended the purpose of this thread to be. Thank you for that.

And I think I'll point this out since some people, I won't name who, might think I've never been subject to discrimination, including racial. I fully believe I have. I can't 100% prove it, but it's still the most likely case. I spent half a year in an awful highly majorly black high school. Obviously, the school was terrible for how it was being run, not for having mostly black students. But while the few white students I interacted with were generally okay, the black ones picked on me and treated me like garbage. I was also literally the only white kid in one of my classes. Our teacher was white too, and they made her cry. This is no joke. I think it's safe to say this was a racial thing.

And I feel I've been discriminated against for being autistic or at least having a behavioral/mental issue. I was in a PE class with one of my brothers and he started a fight with me. He was the instigator and yet, I was the one removed from the class and dumped into another one. I nearly failed the class I was moved to because I had little understanding of what was being taught. It was known that I had autism or ADHD or some form of mental/behavioral disorder at this time too, because this was also in high school, well after I was diagnosed and all. And also, but a bit less notably, other kids never wanted to bother with me, or pick me for their teams or groups or anything. This might've been due to me being "different" too. So yeah, while I certainly haven't had it as bad as some people, I've been met with some discrimination.

Edited by Anacybele

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Specta, you pretty much summed up what I also intended the purpose of this thread to be. Thank you for that.

I am glad you agree. If this is so, though, the way you presented your points in the opening post does look to others like you are among the people who are discrediting the issue by focusing on these branches that are lesser to the cause. If that was not your intention, I hope knowing this can help you rethink how you want to present your point for this discussion.

Edited by Specta

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Specta said:

I am glad we see eye to eye on it. If this is so, though, the way you presented your points in the opening post does look to others like you are among the people who are discrediting the issue by focusing on these branches that are lesser to the cause. If that was not your intention, I hope knowing this can help you rethink how you want to present your point for this discussion.

...I apologize, but I'm afraid I'm confused here. I'm not sure what you mean by discrediting the issues by focusing on some "branches lesser to the cause."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

I spent half a year in an awful highly majorly black high school. Obviously, the school was terrible for how it was being run, not for having mostly black students. But while the few white students I interacted with were generally okay, the black ones picked on me and treated me like garbage. I was also literally the only white kid in one of my classes. Our teacher was white too, and they made her cry. This is no joke. I think it's safe to say this was a racial thing.

You spent half a year?

Try spending a whole lifetime as the only black person -- or minority -- in any given group. Instead of just half a year.

Imagine feeling like that for your entire lifetime, and imagine your parents feeling like that for their lifetime. And imagine their parents feeling like it too.

Imagine your parents having to talk to you about how to interact with police to avoid getting killed when you're as young as a 7 year old. This doesn't happen with white people.

Also, it's no coincidence it was a shit school full of black people. The system is designed to put black kids in shit schools constantly, so they don't have the means to escape the bullshit the system's put them through.

Nobody's saying you haven't been discriminated against. But your race has only been the reason for it for half a year. Black people's race has been a source of discrimination for 400 years and counting, and every time they bring it up they're met with "oh, but you shouldn't kneel against the flag, that's disrespectful."

Or by trying to constantly assassinate their civil rights leaders like MLK and Malcolm X. Which is part of the reason the current protests are leaderless; so nobody targets a leader that ends up dispersing the movement.

 

Dude, read up on the Southern Strategy -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy -- this is the reason everyone associates Republicans with racists. And they'd be right to do so.

A Nixon aide said the drug war was meant to disenfranchise black people -- https://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/john-ehrlichman-richard-nixon-drug-war-blacks-hippie/index.html

That and the disproportionate number of black people in prison mixed with this country's poor take on recidivism makes it so many can never escape. I can go on and on and on about how there's segregation and racial injustices today, but the issue is that you literally won't stop talking about the violence when the protests are massively and overall peaceful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

...I apologize, but I'm afraid I'm confused here. I'm not sure what you mean by discrediting the issues by focusing on some "branches lesser to the cause."

No need to apologize. Happy to rephrase.

The focus in the OP is on things like looting during the riots and Disneyland choosing to redo Splash Mountain as evidence of the racial discussion going "too far." The talk of how some people have responded badly or what companies are doing to respond are kind of "lesser issues" that are being used to discredit or distract from the talk about violence again black people in America.

If we're more focused on whether or not looters have "gone too far," we're implicitly (whether intentionally or not) saying that we'll only worry about and address the issue of violence against black people if it's done "the right way," which inevitably means "perfectly," which is actively impossible. It discredits the movement because people are essentially now focusing on debating if a whole lotta people have the right to be heard based upon other people's conduct during this time.

Edited by Specta

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Burklight said:

Just to be perfectly clear, I'm not suggesting it's fair. It's absolutely not fair. But you have to ask yourself, what's the goal of the protest? Is it to get revenge and spite the people you believe are oppressing you? Or is it to gain support for your cause to fix the unfairness? It's an important question, because you actually can't have both. 

I can totally understand why people who believe they're oppressed would go out and be as obnoxious as possible, but it won't effectively persuade people to help them make the changes they want.

It's not to persuade the people who are inconvenienced, it's to put the spotlight on an issue that people are ignoring or are unaware of. Outrageous behavior gets the discussion going.

Saying you support their right to protest but not how they did it begs the question, "then what is the correct way to protest?" Anything that doesn't create disruption is going to be summarily ignored. Black people have been protesting for generations, and yet there are still the same age old existential dangers, which means something even more disruptive is necessary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Specta said:

No need to apologize. Happy to rephrase.

The focus in the OP is on things like looting during the riots and Disneyland choosing to redo Splash Mountain as evidence of the racial discussion going "too far." The talk of how some people have responded badly or what companies are doing to respond are kind of "lesser issues" that are being used to discredit or distract from the talk about violence again black people in America.

If we're more focused on whether or not looters have "gone too far," we're implicitly (whether intentionally or not) saying that we'll only worry about and address the issue of violence against black people if it's done "the right way," which inevitably means "perfectly," which is actively impossible. It discredits the movement because people are essentially now focusing on debating if a whole lotta people have the right to be heard based upon other people's conduct during this time.

Just to make sure I understand what you're saying, if I were to, hypothetically of course, suggesting that looting and vandalism and beating people to death in the streets is unacceptable, then I'm responsible for derailing a productive discussion about how to address racism, and the people doing all the things I think are unacceptable are somehow not responsible for derailing otherwise peaceful protests? I feel pretty confident that isn't what you're implying, so please correct me.

2 minutes ago, Johann said:

It's not to persuade the people who are inconvenienced, it's to put the spotlight on an issue that people are ignoring or are unaware of. Outrageous behavior gets the discussion going.

You're right, and that's in my view part of the problem. If the way you're protesting alienates more people than it persuades, then you're actively hurting a cause that I personally care about.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Specta said:

No need to apologize. Happy to rephrase.

The focus in the OP is on things like looting during the riots and Disneyland choosing to redo Splash Mountain as evidence of the racial discussion going "too far." The talk of how some people have responded badly or what companies are doing to respond are kind of "lesser issues" that are being used to discredit or distract from the talk about violence again black people in America.

If we're more focused on whether or not looters have "gone too far," we're implicitly (whether intentionally or not) saying that we'll only worry about and address the issue of violence against black people if it's done "the right way," which inevitably means "perfectly," which is actively impossible. It discredits the movement because people are essentially now focusing on debating if a whole lotta people have the right to be heard based upon other people's conduct during this time.

Just trying to mind my Ps and Qs and stay out of trouble is all.

And yeah, those being lesser issues than the big ones are why I mentioned them. I'm wondering why any attention is being given to lesser things like a theme park ride or little kid's TV show or a syrup bottle's label when there are actual real issues to focus on instead. Like the very violence against blacks that you mentioned. And even some things Lord Raven has pointed out like the needless imprisonment of non-violent, truly harmless people like those who just had a little weed on them and were doing nothing wrong. Maybe I should have been clearer on this though, so if I wasn't, I apologize for that too.

I definitely don't mean to discredit peaceful, well-meaning protesters.

6 minutes ago, Johann said:

Saying you support their right to protest but not how they did it begs the question, "then what is the correct way to protest?"

The mass peaceful protests, for one thing. Educating people better through these protests and all is another.

 

Edited by Anacybele

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Johann said:

Anything that doesn't create disruption is going to be summarily ignored

Swept under the rug. And for people who have been keeping score, all this sweeping is finally resulting in turmoil and unrest, because the issues are unaddressed, still, to this very day.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By defund the police we mean takes some money out of the police budget and put in things like mental health clinics , school funding things like that. We don't want the police gone we just want to to stop killer black people for no reason. 

Pulse this goes beyond any Disney ride, this had been building up for 100's of years. I get that you see the riots going on and thinks there awful and they are. Please realize thought the police  started most of the riots by attacking protesters. Also yes some riots started form some assholes that just want to cause trouble. 

If you want o know more here is a good place to start. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Burklight said:

Just to make sure I understand what you're saying, if I were to, hypothetically of course, suggesting that looting and vandalism and beating people to death in the streets is unacceptable, then I'm responsible for derailing a productive discussion about how to address racism, and the people doing all the things I think are unacceptable are somehow not responsible for derailing otherwise peaceful protests? I feel pretty confident that isn't what you're implying, so please correct me.

Here's an example. We recently fired an admin on a massive discord I moderate.

Part of the reason for his firing was because of his rhetoric during the protests. Anyone who asked him if they believe in the cause would get deflections, meanwhile he would continue to post clips of looters and places getting looted. And of violence against white people (which made no sense to me, the guy was Filipino and he cared more about that).

Mention that the police are committing way more violence, mention that the police looted pharmacies five years ago in Baltimore to sell narcotics, mention all of that and it gets summarily ignored.

Mention protests and someone responds with "yeah, but I wish there was less violence and looting" ends up being a dogwhistle. Because there are people who will say that solely to distract, and there's a lot more of them.

That, and OPs own history with making awful takes that are racist (basically, she led far more of a crusade against kneeling than she lets on, and she asked why we weren't questioning Obama's birthplace when his name was Barack Obama and not something that sounded white) is why people make statements like that.

1 minute ago, Burklight said:

You're right, and that's in my view part of the problem. If the way you're protesting alienates more people than it persuades, then you're actively hurting a cause that I personally care about.  

Luckily these protests aren't doing that. Over half the country is in favor of the protests, but over half the country being in favor of something doesn't mean something gets done. Not with this obstructionist congress.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Burklight said:

You're right, and that's in my view part of the problem. If the way you're protesting alienates more people than it persuades, then you're actively hurting a cause that I personally care about.  

If you can point to an example where that's been the case, I'd be intrigued, but otherwise it sounds like you're making an assumption about how many people are upset with the protests.

4 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

The mass peaceful protests, for one thing. Educating people better through these protests and all is another.

Which mass peaceful protest are you referring to? What does that mean?

You have so much to learn about how all of this works, but for now here's a short video that might help:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

Here's an example. We recently fired an admin on a massive discord I moderate.

Part of the reason for his firing was because of his rhetoric during the protests. Anyone who asked him if they believe in the cause would get deflections, meanwhile he would continue to post clips of looters and places getting looted. And of violence against white people (which made no sense to me, the guy was Filipino and he cared more about that).

Mention that the police are committing way more violence, mention that the police looted pharmacies five years ago in Baltimore to sell narcotics, mention all of that and it gets summarily ignored.

Mention protests and someone responds with "yeah, but I wish there was less violence and looting" ends up being a dogwhistle. Because there are people who will say that solely to distract, and there's a lot more of them.

That, and OPs own history with making awful takes that are racist (basically, she led far more of a crusade against kneeling than she lets on, and she asked why we weren't questioning Obama's birthplace when his name was Barack Obama and not something that sounded white) is why people make statements like that.

So this discord mod was wishy washy when asked if he supported the cause (I'm assuming "the cause" in this context is fighting racism) and was then fired because he had a problem with violence and looting? I honestly don''t think a majority of the violent looters even know who George Floyd is. How is wishing there was less violence a dogwhistle? I suppose I can't peak for others, but I don't hear a dogwhistle. I just hear people wishing their supermarkets were't on fire, or that their grandma didn't get beaten in the streets. 

 

4 minutes ago, Johann said:

Which mass peaceful protest are you referring to? What does that mean?

Are you suggesting that the protests shouldn't be peaceful? I don't think it's a stretch to get from this comment to active calls to violence. 

@Specta Is there anything in the code of conduct that says anything about making calls to violence? Might want to add that if it was overlooked somehow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If that defunding were to get put into the education system, I'd be totally down for that. The education system here is crap right now.

2 minutes ago, Burklight said:

Are you suggesting that the protests shouldn't be peaceful? I don't think it's a stretch to get from this comment to active calls to violence. 

And yeah, this. Plenty of protests have been peaceful, some pretty big.

EDIT: I stopped watching that video as soon as I saw "will be donated to the Critical Resistance, a prison and police abolition group." As shown to me earlier, defunding is one thing, but we cannot completely abolish the police and jails.

Edited by Anacybele

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Burklight said:

So this discord mod was wishy washy when asked if he supported the cause (I'm assuming "the cause" in this context is fighting racism) and was then fired because he had a problem with violence and looting?

He was fired for being a cunt.

6 minutes ago, Burklight said:

I honestly don''t think a majority of the violent looters even know who George Floyd is.

How?

Quote

How is wishing there was less violence a dogwhistle? I suppose I can't peak for others, but I don't hear a dogwhistle. I just hear people wishing their supermarkets were't on fire, or that their grandma didn't get beaten in the streets. 

The dogwhistle is ignoring everything but the violence and looting. That's what I described this user as doing. This is what many users do.

They also describe the protests as riots. Not as protests, which the vast majority are peaceful. This particular one defend police saying the majority are great! But then he called anyone protesting "rioting thugs." As if he didn't just trample on his own point and rhetoric.

6 minutes ago, Burklight said:

Are you suggesting that the protests shouldn't be peaceful? I don't think it's a stretch to get from this comment to active calls to violence. 

No, it's that peaceful protests don't make the airwaves.

Even if there was no looting, COVIDs on the horizon. People are understandable freaked out. But frankly, if that's what it takes to make the point, because fucking this

08a0ceff-97b8-4e11-bac3-e0ccfca82658_720

being scoffed at, yelled at, treated like shit and getting shitloads of Fox News and Tomi Lahren rants didn't do enough. Nor did Jon Stewart talking about this repeatedly on the Daily Show:

It's a five year old fucking video titled "We can't breathe." but only a few months ago were the majority of Americans pro-BLM.

 

 

Go to the General US Politics thread and search for a user named @tuvarkz who called BLM protesters a bunch of thugs. I got suspended for calling that dude a racist later.

 

 

Also, like 99.999% of the protests were peaceful.

Edited by Lord Raven

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Burklight said:

Are you suggesting that the protests shouldn't be peaceful? I don't think it's a stretch to get from this comment to active calls to violence.

You totally missed the point. Watch the video I posted. There is a limit to peaceful protesting when it's directly against a violent faction where there is no appealing to their morality. Even MLK and Ghandi said as much.

1 minute ago, Anacybele said:

And yeah, this. Plenty of protests have been peaceful, some pretty big.

Yeah no shit, that's not in dispute. Watch the video.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Johann said:

Yeah no shit, that's not in dispute. Watch the video.

You missed my post edit then, I guess. I choose not to finish watching it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...