FE9 Tier List!!!

[xanatha]

If someone beats me in a debate, then I'll lower Rolf.

You do have a tough opponent.

Does it matter which of Rolf or Shinon is better? They both suck in this game. Shinon at least has that part in the beginning of the game where he's actually good but its not like he's actually going to be used much cause he gains very little exp. Rolf takes a long time to catch up with everyone else and it depends on the player if he's worth it or not. I'd put them both in low tier, maybe bottom, but I don't really care for tiers.

These arguments have settled my vote.

[dondon151]

If someone beats me in a debate, then I'll lower Rolf.

Or you can enlighten yourself and no one will have to debate.

Seriously, he joins as a level 1 archer in a chapter where the rest of your characters will probably be around 10 levels higher.

[Killer Poleax]

can't titania one round early-game too?

Of course Titania can one-round but are you really going to use her to kill enemies? She gains very little exp which is better used to level other characters. I know she's good for a tier list but who actually plays by tiers?

Oh yeah, Shinon can also one-round early game, something that Rolf won't be able to do for a long time. Rolf takes way too much time to get up to par. Shinon sucks when he returns to the team but at least he has four chapters where he's actually good. I wouldn't use him at all in early game since other characters need the exp more but at least he has those few chapters where he's better than Rolf will be for a long time. It's gonna take Rolf a while to match what Shinon is capable of in those few chapters and he's outclassed by almost everyone on the team when he joins.

[Lord Raven]

You don't even make him use his Iron Bow to weaken things? :<

[Killer Poleax]

You don't even make him use his Iron Bow to weaken things? :<

I might use him to bait a few archers in ch.4 (only if I'm impatient) but I usually let everyone else handle the enemies. There's also a small chance that he'll critical with the iron bow. I don't play as prepromotes in early game unless I absolutely have to. It's just my playstyle.

Edited December 14, 2008 by KSFF2150

[Mekkah]

It's not debate playstyle though.

6.3 Hogging EXP

This point is often used against Seth, Titania and several FE10 units, especially Sothe. They "hog EXP", according to some, and count this as a negative. This couldn't be more wrong - if anything, they are doing the opposite.

Let's say we are comparing Seth and Franz. Seth is a L1 Paladin, while Franz a L1 Cavalier. Some people say that Seth should not get many kills - after all, other units gain more EXP and need this EXP more than Seth. What those making this argument do not realize is that this is not a negative, but more of a positive for Seth. Think about it. Seth "not needing EXP" cannot be a negative for him. It's like saying that Guy not needing a Speedwing while Oswin would like one is a negative for Guy.

Gaining less EXP is not a negative either, it's an effect caused by having a higher level to begin with. Seth pretty much comes with 1900 more EXP than Franz. Seth's lower EXP gains only affect his own growth. The fact that he doesn't gain as much EXP as Franz does is represented by Seth not having improved as much as Franz by giving them the same amount of kills. When both haven't killed anything, Seth's stats are superior. When Franz has killed 10 enemies, he is probably around L4 or L5, but he's still worse than a base level Seth (with 30 EXP or so). Same after 20, 30, 40, etc enemies. Only when Franz is around L18 while Seth is L2 or L3, Franz is starting to become comparable, while he was definitely worse by a lot.

L1 Seth is as good as a L18 Franz off the bat.

Franz isn't as good as Seth until he hits L18.

After reading this, some would still insist that it's better that Seth does not get any kills. However, that is basically handing Seth another advantage: it's showing that he has a secondary method of being used, and apparently this second method is better (I would argue it is not, but that is another story). If "2nd method Seth" > "1st method Seth", and "1st method Seth" > Franz, then it logically follows that "2nd method Seth" >Franz as well. Of course, it won't show that Seth is better than Franz in the stats now when they are compared when Franz has caught up, but the EXP that Seth would have gotten now went to other units on the team, which is another advantage.

Or, in other words, let's compare three teams, and distribute 100 kills among them. Let's say 5 kills is a level on average, except for Seth, who would need 25.

Team A has Seth, Arthur, Lute and Vanessa, and each is given equal amount of kills, so 25.

Team B has Seth, Arthur, Lute and Vanessa, and Seth is only getting 4 kills, while the other 21 are given away to others, giving each of those 25+7=32 kills.

Team C has Franz, Arthur, Lute and Vanessa, and each is given equal amount of kills, so 25.

Team A: L2 Seth, L7 Arthur, L6 Lute, L6 Vanessa.

Team B: L1 Seth, L8 Arthur, L7 Lute, L7 Vanessa

Team C: L6 Franz, L7 Arthur, L6 Lute, L6 Vanessa

Clearly Team A and B are both much stronger than team C, and both A and B have Seth. The non-Seth units on team A are equal to the non-Franz units on team C, and the non-Seth units on team B are clearly beating those of team C.

This argument goes for any prepromote, or any unit that gains less EXP...or actually, for any unit, really. This even goes for FE6/FE7 Marcus, though it should be added that those have a negative effect on the EXP rank. It also goes for units that hit L20 before promotion, such as Eirika and Ephraim.

[TheEnd]

The presence of bonus experience makes experience hogging less critical in some cases, though.

[riariadne]

It's not debate playstyle though.

6.3 Hogging EXP

This point is often used against Seth, Titania and several FE10 units, especially Sothe. They "hog EXP", according to some, and count this as a negative. This couldn't be more wrong - if anything, they are doing the opposite.

Let's say we are comparing Seth and Franz. Seth is a L1 Paladin, while Franz a L1 Cavalier. Some people say that Seth should not get many kills - after all, other units gain more EXP and need this EXP more than Seth. What those making this argument do not realize is that this is not a negative, but more of a positive for Seth. Think about it. Seth "not needing EXP" cannot be a negative for him. It's like saying that Guy not needing a Speedwing while Oswin would like one is a negative for Guy.

Gaining less EXP is not a negative either, it's an effect caused by having a higher level to begin with. Seth pretty much comes with 1900 more EXP than Franz. Seth's lower EXP gains only affect his own growth. The fact that he doesn't gain as much EXP as Franz does is represented by Seth not having improved as much as Franz by giving them the same amount of kills. When both haven't killed anything, Seth's stats are superior. When Franz has killed 10 enemies, he is probably around L4 or L5, but he's still worse than a base level Seth (with 30 EXP or so). Same after 20, 30, 40, etc enemies. Only when Franz is around L18 while Seth is L2 or L3, Franz is starting to become comparable, while he was definitely worse by a lot.

L1 Seth is as good as a L18 Franz off the bat.

Franz isn't as good as Seth until he hits L18.

After reading this, some would still insist that it's better that Seth does not get any kills. However, that is basically handing Seth another advantage: it's showing that he has a secondary method of being used, and apparently this second method is better (I would argue it is not, but that is another story). If "2nd method Seth" > "1st method Seth", and "1st method Seth" > Franz, then it logically follows that "2nd method Seth" >Franz as well. Of course, it won't show that Seth is better than Franz in the stats now when they are compared when Franz has caught up, but the EXP that Seth would have gotten now went to other units on the team, which is another advantage.

Or, in other words, let's compare three teams, and distribute 100 kills among them. Let's say 5 kills is a level on average, except for Seth, who would need 25.

Team A has Seth, Arthur, Lute and Vanessa, and each is given equal amount of kills, so 25.

Team B has Seth, Arthur, Lute and Vanessa, and Seth is only getting 4 kills, while the other 21 are given away to others, giving each of those 25+7=32 kills.

Team C has Franz, Arthur, Lute and Vanessa, and each is given equal amount of kills, so 25.

Team A: L2 Seth, L7 Arthur, L6 Lute, L6 Vanessa.

Team B: L1 Seth, L8 Arthur, L7 Lute, L7 Vanessa

Team C: L6 Franz, L7 Arthur, L6 Lute, L6 Vanessa

Clearly Team A and B are both much stronger than team C, and both A and B have Seth. The non-Seth units on team A are equal to the non-Franz units on team C, and the non-Seth units on team B are clearly beating those of team C.

This argument goes for any prepromote, or any unit that gains less EXP...or actually, for any unit, really. This even goes for FE6/FE7 Marcus, though it should be added that those have a negative effect on the EXP rank. It also goes for units that hit L20 before promotion, such as Eirika and Ephraim.

Yeah, experience hogging is a pretty lame excuse for a character being good.

[Dat Nick]

Titania's still probably taking less kills overall and weakening rather than killing [Of course snagging the occasional kill] since at that point, your other units don't want that EXP, they NEED it: Especially if you're playing on Hard where EXP is really scarce.

[Mekkah]

That's fine, as long as isn't a point against Titania.

[Knight of the White Lake]

I know I'm out of date on this forum but...

What on earth makes Rolf a low tier person? For crying out loud, he was/is one of my best units in PoR! And Radiant Dawn for that matter! What's wrong with him? I don't see any way that Rolf is anything but on a top or epic tier. Please explain what makes most of you place him on such a low tier.

Edited January 24, 2009 by Sir Michael of Crimea

[Lord Raven]

Because he sucks when he starts out, and is mediocre when you build him up. And is stuck with a terrible weapon type throughout.

[Ragnell]

I know I'm out of date on this forum but...

What on earth makes Rolf a low tier person? For crying out loud, he was/is one of my best units in PoR! And Radiant Dawn for that matter! What's wrong with him? I don't see any way that Rolf is anything but on a top or epic tier. Please explain what makes most of you place him on such a low tier.

I'm not too up to date here either, but I assume it's because he comes in ridiculously underleveled and uses bows, which aren't that great in PoR. He's ok, but not good enough to match other characters in the top tiers.

[Knight of the White Lake]

I'm not too up to date here either, but I assume it's because he comes in ridiculously underleveled and uses bows, which aren't that great in PoR. He's ok, but not good enough to match other characters in the top tiers.

Hmm.... How many of you guys ACTUALLY built him up? Rolf is one of my best units. Yes, it was sort of hard in the beginning to level him up, but he was worth it! He was the only archer around for a while, Astrid wasn't good enough, and by the time I got to have Shinon back, (Rolf and Shinon were equal in level when I got Shinon back) Rolf's stats were about 2 above in every category! Rolf could take punishment, and plenty of it, therefore making him a great piece of bait. Also, he would destroy enemy units in (technically) 1.5 hits in the last 5 or 6 levels. And he wasn't level 20 nor did he make it to level 20 by the end of the game. Did I get extremely lucky or did no one really build him up?

Edited January 24, 2009 by Sir Michael of Crimea

[Mekkah]

Personal experience means nothing. The deal with Rolf is that, for him to be up to par with good units such as Kieran, he has to have very very very exceptional player phase offense, since his enemy phase offense is effectively near-zero 99% of the time. Then on top of that, he's worse than most of your Ch1 units, but joins in Ch8.

[Dat Nick]

How many of you guys ACTUALLY built him up?

Okay, I built Rolf up.

He's still can't counter melee, his move still sucks compared to other cases, bows still suck, his durability sucks so he STILL needs to be guarded. He still sucks. Just not as suck as he used to be.

Rolf is essentially the same thing as CAPTAIN GORDIN, DEFENDER OF EARTH in FEDS: He sucks starting out. He sucks less when you promote him. But he still sucks. Much like Est, another peice of failure from DS, he's simply not worth the effort and EXP it takes to raise him. Especially not on Hard where EXP is so hard to get.

FE10 and FE4 are the only exceptions ever to "lol bow users".

Edited January 24, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[Knight of the White Lake]

He's still can't counter melee,

Um, I thought the point of archers was to have a long range unit that could be vulnerable to melee range attacks. Was I wrong? That is the way I've seen it in previous FEs, is that not so? Did everyone so love the crossbow and bowgun from Radiant Dawn that now previous characters are not nearly as good?

I will play PoR again and see if I go through the same experience everyone else has seemed to go through. If I have the same type of experience you guys have had, I will take everything I have said back... But I highly doubt I will have to.

[Dat Nick]

Um, I thought the point of archers was to have a long range unit that could be vulnerable to melee range attacks.

Who cares? Does this make it any less of a disadvantage?

That is the way I've seen it in previous FEs, is that not so?

Yes, and that is why archers from previous FEs sucked. Including your precious Rebecca.

Did everyone so love the crossbow and bowgun from Radiant Dawn that now previous characters are not nearly as good?

forgot the double bow

And not nearly as good? Try not good to begin with.

[Lord Raven]

Shinon doesn't even need Crossbows very much to be good. Whenever he can he can switch something out for a Crossbow or Bowgun, but that's kinda situational (not overly situational but..) Rolf's mediocre in FE10 as well, whereas Shinon is above average at least...

Until then, your best bow users in FE history were Holyn!Faval or Briggid.

(When I recall playing FE9 I don't recall a lack of EXP, nor a surplus so I don't know where you're getting that figure from. There's enough EXP to go around).

Edited January 24, 2009 by Nathan Graves

[Dat Nick]

Bottom-High sounds right, if not top-upper mid.

That's still way higher than any archer ever was.

And don't forget Win...I mean, the double bow.

And Holyn over Jamka for Faval..? Am I missing something? It can't be Luna because Luna is just overkill.

Edited January 24, 2009 by MightyZagaro

[Mekkah]

Luna doesn't even work on anyone but unmounted sword users. People like Holyn!Faval because the stats are hax, and because it makes Patty usable, whereas Jamka turns her into a big ass pile of shit. I suppose Jamka!Faval may be a little better than Holyn!Faval, though Faval is going to one-round everything even with Azel or Claude as his father.

[Knight of the White Lake]

(When I recall playing FE9 I don't recall a lack of EXP, nor a surplus so I don't know where you're getting that figure from. There's enough EXP to go around).

Ok, sorry if I was unclear. When I said "experience" I meant, the experience of playing the game, not experience as experience points. Sorry.

Also, someone said Rolf was/is mediocre in FE10 too. Er, no. I found that Rolf, with the double bow (due to the fact that he got ahead of Shinon because of old habits from PoR [not using Shinon]) would do 21 damage per hit (without A support from Boyd) and strike twice standing next to Nasir when attacking the auroas around Ashera. Does Shinon beat that capability?

[Dat Nick]

Does Shinon beat that capability?

yes

[_____]

Ok, sorry if I was unclear. When I said "experience" I meant, the experience of playing the game, not experience as experience points. Sorry.

Also, someone said Rolf was/is mediocre in FE10 too. Er, no. I found that Rolf, with the double bow (due to the fact that he got ahead of Shinon because of old habits from PoR [not using Shinon]) would do 21 damage per hit (without A support from Boyd) and strike twice standing next to Nasir when attacking the auroas around Ashera. Does Shinon beat that capability?

And what level was this Rolf?

[Lord Raven]

Also, someone said Rolf was/is mediocre in FE10 too. Er, no. I found that Rolf, with the double bow (due to the fact that he got ahead of Shinon because of old habits from PoR [not using Shinon]) would do 21 damage per hit (without A support from Boyd) and strike twice standing next to Nasir when attacking the auroas around Ashera. Does Shinon beat that capability?

Rolf only will get to that high a level if you feed him all the kills in the game. Well, that's an exaggeration, but I'd imagine that it's somewhere in that area; HM FE10 has almost no EXP to go around, and you can't afford to fuck around with it. Shinon is better because he gains only a bit less EXP than Rolf, has better bases and gets his auto-promotion just as soon if not sooner than Rolf gets his Level 10 promotion.