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Lord Raven

Genocide in the Gaza

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I'm basically a little too heated to give a proper intro topic, but given the victim blaming from the Western Media and politicians alike

Very fucking difficult to not make this thread.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-57053074

Basically, a load of Palestinian Muslims praying at Al-Aqsa mosque were attacked by police in the middle of fucking Ramadan, killing 20 people (including 9 kids) and injuring 300 more. This is quite literally a fucking war crime and I view the western media as concern trolling when Palestine did not take the attack sitting down. Forcing Muslims to go to war as Eid is approaching really makes me viscerally wish the instigators within the Israeli government would go to hell in a snap, but I don't have faith that anyone will enforce that kind of justice. West hates it when Islamic populations get too big anyway.

Edited by Lord Raven

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If that BBC article is correct, "clusterfuck" doesn't do the situation justice, assuming that both sides are telling the truth.  Both sides need to cool off before this ignites into something worse.

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This shit is just disgusting, man. Constantly there's these horrific actions by the Israeli government and the IDF, yet western nations, namely the US, continue to support them, with the US giving them billions in aid and military assistance every year. They're a self-sufficient developed country anyways, they don't need the foreign aid, and they certainly shouldn't receive it when they're an apartheid, terroristic state. What they've done to the people of Palestine is just abhorrent. I can't believe people still support and defend this shit, man.

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People would prefer to defend Israel until the very end then admit they were in the wrong for ever supporting it. It's so disgusting, but I'm not surprised. Israel could murder every Palestinian child, and someone would still find a way to either ignore it, or defend it.

Anyway, I got recommend this video on YouTube, and it made me feel somewhat better, so I'm going to share it here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWzj8duAKY4

I wish more people were like that man. 

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5 hours ago, edgelordweeb said:

This shit is just disgusting, man. Constantly there's these horrific actions by the Israeli government and the IDF, yet western nations, namely the US, continue to support them, with the US giving them billions in aid and military assistance every year. They're a self-sufficient developed country anyways, they don't need the foreign aid, and they certainly shouldn't receive it when they're an apartheid, terroristic state. What they've done to the people of Palestine is just abhorrent. I can't believe people still support and defend this shit, man.

Israel is basically an unsinkable aircraft carrier in the Middle East, so I think that is why our government supports them. Personally though, geopolitically speaking, siding with Arabs and Palestinians makes far more sense in my opinion since you would not need an Israeli aircraft carrier in the first place if the Middle East is as tame Europe and Latin America. That being said, Palestinians lost a lot of leverage they used to have, and while other Arab nations nominally still support them, many seem to have given up and are working towards normalizing relations with Israel.

While most Americans support Israel, there is a minority of Americans who sympathize more with Palestine. However, based on the way most of our politicians speak, it seems like we are in a rather small minority.

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4 hours ago, Dr. Tarrasque said:

Just dropping this here for those wondering why there's so much blind support for Israel in the US

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmWL0I3oytw

 

That only explains love for Israel from the religious far right though. I am not sure it makes sense for the rest of society to follow their lead to like Israel for a religious reason. The only thing I can think of for the rest of society to like Israel is that there is a high level of ignorance, disconnect, and denial that Israel is an apartheid state like South Africa. And because Israel is technically a democracy, a rather close ally, and is culturally similar to us, it is easy for the rest of America to overlook Israel's less savory side.

From my view, West Bank settlements are tantamount to Hitler's Lebensraum. While I do not think Israel is comparable to Nazi Germany as a whole, I think it is fair game to at least compare the two on a more limited scope like specific national policy. Maybe the comparison would be easier to stomach if American Manifest Destiny is thrown in the mix, and I think most Americans agree that forcing people into reservations and taking children away from their parents to assimilate them are just as fucked up. America is still coming to grips with the shame of slavery and police brutality, so maybe it will take some time for Americans to make the connection between Manifest Destiny, illegal settlements, and Lebensraum.

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I'll start my comment that I am probably rather uninformed about this Israel-Palestine conflict, as a whole since I don't really have a strong understanding of the history and the current events happening. Saying that, my only few contribution to this is...

Netanyahu (plus those who enable/support him) is a huge ass problem, and the religious beliefs that helped shape America's view towards this conflict disgusts me.

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1 hour ago, Clear World said:

I'll start my comment that I am probably rather uninformed about this Israel-Palestine conflict, as a whole since I don't really have a strong understanding of the history and the current events happening. Saying that, my only few contribution to this is...

As my one professor who wrote a book on the origins of this conflict said, blame the British! 

There were already Jews migrating to Palestine prior to the Balfour Declaration, not necessarily for political zionism, it could've been religious or cultural. And furthermore, although Palestine because it was the ancestral homeland remained by far the most popular option, the political zionists who wanted a Jewish state were originally mostly secularists caught up in European modernism, not driven by Judaism, were initially willing to found their country anywhere, some considered one in southeastern colonial Africa.

It's the Balfour Declaration that solidifies the choice for political nation-state zionism to Palestine itself. The British were doofuses who made completely contradictory promises to the Jews and the Arabs, thinking they would be able to keep control of everything, and the British Empire would be the ultimate beneficiary. The Balfour Declaration was kept intentionally vague, a "Jewish homeland" in Palestine did not mean an outright independent state, the British didn't say it aloud, but they wanted to keep Palestine as yet another colony in the many-jeweled crown forever. The 1920s looked blissfully okay for the ignorant Brits, Arabs and Jews looked to be in harmony -although the officials never bothered to look at the broader picture they didn't want to see. And by the end of the decade and through the next, tensions turned to open violence, and the fantasy of a peaceful Mandate Palestine under firm British imperial control revealed itself to be a total lie. By 1948, the British Empire is collapsing after WWII, they draw up partition plans on paper without the will to enforce them, neither side likes the terms of partition, and so the oppression of the Israeli state upon the Palestinians begins.

-Although Israel is a "functional" democracy (democracies never function perfectly, as America is presently showing), there should be some if not total separation between the Israeli people and the government. Whilst Americans do have to live with the national sin of any crimes committed by the US while in Iraq and Afghanistan, and Vietnam decades prior, etc., you can't say every American was culpable for those acts. At the bare minimum, one would want to exclude the Jews fresh off the boat from Europe arriving in the 1940s and early 1950s who were given houses and bank accounts confiscated through military force from Palestinian Arabs in 1948 by the Israeli state.

Whilst the religious Jews initially did not approve of political zionism, I believe it was in the late 1960s-70s when it flipped as a whole to endorsing the state of Israel. It would've been around the point when Israel's left-leaning Labor Party which had led it since founding (and committed its own atrocities against the Palestinians), and gave way to the right-wing Likud Party. Likud bows down to the more conservative Jewish religious community, and Likud all these decades later still rules Israel.

 

14 hours ago, XRay said:

and while other Arab nations nominally still support them, many seem to have given up and are working towards normalizing relations with Israel.

It's questionable how true this support ever was. Back in 1948, there was a good deal of opportunism by the surrounding Arab states if I remember my classes on the subject well. Pan-Arabism was a nice cultural idea back in the 1940s-60s, but nobody seriously gave it much credence politically, Nasser's union of his Egypt with Syria was blatantly Egypt-biased and flopped shortly thereafter.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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2 hours ago, Clear World said:

I'll start my comment that I am probably rather uninformed about this Israel-Palestine conflict, as a whole since I don't really have a strong understanding of the history and the current events happening. Saying that, my only few contribution to this is...

Netanyahu (plus those who enable/support him) is a huge ass problem, and the religious beliefs that helped shape America's view towards this conflict disgusts me.

Basically, everyone wants a piece of Jerusalem for religious reasons, but they can't exactly coexist in it in one way or another. I'm not  sure what kicked off the Iron Dome working overtime, yesterday; but it's kind of a miracle that the holy sites in Jerusalem isn't up in flames with the recent waves of protesting.

Edited by Armchair General

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3 hours ago, Clear World said:

I'll start my comment that I am probably rather uninformed about this Israel-Palestine conflict, as a whole since I don't really have a strong understanding of the history and the current events happening. Saying that, my only few contribution to this is...

Netanyahu (plus those who enable/support him) is a huge ass problem, and the religious beliefs that helped shape America's view towards this conflict disgusts me.

It's complicated.  And I think both governments need to be dragged out and replaced by more moderate ones.

47 minutes ago, Armchair General said:

Basically, everyone wants a piece of Jerusalem for religious reasons, but they can't exactly coexist in it in one way or another. I'm not  sure what kicked off the Iron Dome working overtime, yesterday; but it's kind of a miracle that the holy sites in Jerusalem isn't up in flames with the recent waves of protesting.

The BBC article linked in the first post has a decent summary of what's going on now.

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It’s hard to “both sides” this when there’s such a huge power discrepancy between the two powers involved: it stopping is more contingent on one side stopping.

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Can't move on to the future unless the past is addressed.  Best case scenario is both governments stopping their aggression simultaneously.

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but in the end this is the way i see it

image0.png

palestinians don't get anxiety apparently

israel has nukes

it's 2021 and the world is basically reset after a pandemic

and israeli people attacked people in a mosque

hamas and netanyahu and the likuud both are all terrible shitty people and have been around far too fucking long

and the entire rest of the world fucking hates muslims

Edited by Lord Raven

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The history behind the situation and the solution is complicated.

I don’t think the morality is, though, because of just how asymmetrical the power is. Hamas being bad does not justify what Israel is doing, nor does their belief that the land belongs to them.

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On 5/11/2021 at 6:45 PM, Lord Raven said:

Basically, a load of Palestinian Muslims praying at Al-Aqsa mosque were attacked by police in the middle of fucking Ramadan, killing 20 people (including 9 kids) and injuring 300 more. This is quite literally a fucking war crime and I view the western media as concern trolling when Palestine did not take the attack sitting down. Forcing Muslims to go to war as Eid is approaching really makes me viscerally wish the instigators within the Israeli government would go to hell in a snap, but I don't have faith that anyone will enforce that kind of justice.

With no attempt to not sound jaded, hasn't this been happening for a long time? I recall a similar story when praying Palestinians had been shot at just a few years or so ago. And you know Hamas loves when this type of thing happens because there is no better advertisement for radicalisation for them.

And for whatever reason some people still have the brainlet take that criticising Israel is equivalent to discriminating against Jewish people or Judaism. To that I always say: I'm just as ready to criticise Saudi Arabia and MBS, a Muslim government with a piss poor record on human rights, just like Israel. Also, just like Israel, they happen to be a Western ally, and at the end of it all, that's why their actions are overlooked. Saudi Arabia bombed hospitals and civilian targets in Yemen, and they were never cut off from support from the US and Western countries, and Israel are the same and will continue to do so even if they commit atrocities.

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I'm mostly concerned about the geopolitical implications of this. Is Iran going to gain more support in Palestine as Arab countries seek to improve relations with Israel? It would be quite ironic if the Abraham accords ended up increasing Iran's power in the region.

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On 5/12/2021 at 10:12 PM, Lord Raven said:

hamas and netanyahu and the likuud both are all terrible shitty people and have been around far too fucking long

I honestly think it'll take the removal of both governments before peace even has a chance, simply because of all the shit both governments have done.  But I am also speaking out of my ass since I do not know the entirety of the situation.

On 5/12/2021 at 10:12 PM, Lord Raven said:

and the entire rest of the world fucking hates muslims

If we count China's antics, then that more than pushes the scales.  However, the Jewish side in the US is in a really strange spot (if you want a better explanation for this, I'll move it to the General US Politics thread, since it's a US thing), and I'm not sure how far that ideology spread.

EDIT: No, that's not a good justification, the fuck is this?

Edited by eclipse

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I'm being visceral but also I don't care much, one of the journalists said they lost a decade of work in that fire p much. Pretty sure the Likud is trying to consolidate their coalition anyway.

Also, eclipse, there's Myanmar on top of China... And the Modi government is definitely full of Islamophobic nationalism.

The Jewish side of the US is actually quite split; it's basically Orthodox that's pro-Israel and everyone else is anti-Israel. Pretty much the reason why the mayoral primaries in New York clearly took a side.

Also have no time for Tryhard outright being jaded everytime I post about shit that sucks. What's the point of this subforum then?

Edited by Lord Raven

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14 minutes ago, eclipse said:

However, the Jewish side in the US is in a really strange spot (if you want a better explanation for this, I'll move it to the General US Politics thread, since it's a US thing), and I'm not sure how far that ideology spread.

I'll take your explanation, although I am vaguely aware the Jewish foreign policy lobby in Washington DC has been changing.

Ninja'ed by Lord Raven, whose explanation I thank.

Without getting contentious or anything, the Jews in the United States and Israel are in two different states of being. In America, they're a minority that realizes it cannot do anything by itself and needs to cooperate and fit into with a non-Jewish majority. Being in a precarious position, likely more so recently due to a rise in anti-semitic hate crimes IIRC, creates these sympathetic dispositions.

Meanwhile, although Israel is the only Jewish state in a land of Arabs (with a substantial Arab minority within Israel acceptable borders) and some Turks further to the north and Persians further east, Israel nonetheless has a firm Jewish establishment capable of defending itself from internal and foreign aggression. And solid establishments tend to get haughty, arrogant and self-centered over time free and fair elections ideally break that haughtiness without violence, because arrogance separates the interests of the elite from the people.

Edited by Interdimensional Observer

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15 minutes ago, Lord Raven said:

I'm being visceral but also I don't care much, one of the journalists said they lost a decade of work in that fire p much. Pretty sure the Likud is trying to consolidate their coalition anyway.

I think targeting the press is an extremely bad sign, especially given the "excuse".  Supposed terrorist activity doesn't mean you raze the entire building into the ground.

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1 hour ago, Lord Raven said:

Also have no time for Tryhard outright being jaded everytime I post about shit that sucks. What's the point of this subforum then?

Nothing I say is to conclude on the matter, it's not like the Israel-Palestinian geopolitical situation isn't a thing that warrants discussion.

So I guess I'll ask a question then: what do you think it would take for Western allies and the UN to stop overlooking Israeli war crimes? For the media to stop portraying a one-way biased view of the situation? Because evidently this is what has been currently happening, and has been happening for some time.

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I just get annoyed that 'x person cares' 'oh it's always been happening.' pretty common from you. Its always so condescending. Like ppl shouldn't be angry lol, you're allowed to have reignited anger though without people pretending it's new though. But I suppose 

56 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

what do you think it would take for Western allies and the UN to stop overlooking Israeli war crimes? For the media to stop portraying a one-way biased view of the situation? Because evidently this is what has been currently happening, and has been happening for some time.

considering how entrenched it is universally, getting current leaders out of office. Except I don't think we will cycle out leaders fast enough. Progressive and young leaders in the US do not look the other way

I mean even this year is the most pushback on the narratives I've seen in a while.

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