Why I think Ike is overrated and Gatrie almost as good

[♠Soul♠]

I was doing a tier list for fun, and I got reminded of this. For a while, I always felt Ike was somewhat overrated, and other GMs like Gatrie and maybe even transfers Boyd are almost as good.

In HM, Ike consistently needs Spd procs to double consistently. You need about 26-27 Spd to double throughtout most of Part 3, and Ike either needs a lot of levels, or a lot of luck to get there... or a Speedwings, which can still go to other characters. On Gatrie's side, most of the arguement I see is in regards to his mobility and Spd cap.

Ike starts out with 23 Spd at base, and that's enough to double some enemies in 3-1 & 3-2. While Gatrie does have less Spd (20 at base), he also has 60% Spd growth. It's one his top 3 highest growths, tied with Str & Def. While he does have less Spd, he can potentially get more out of levels, and especially through BEXP (if necessary). It's not hard for him to cap Spd a lot easier. But we know capping it isn't the issue, as is the cap itself. He can take the 3-4 Crown either there or by 3-5, allowing him to double through all of Part 3 and only falling short by Endgame.

And lastly, his mobility. It's a really easy fix, and that's Celerity. I don't think it's nearly as contested as people have made it seem, and I sure wouldn't give it to Haar to have overkill Mov. I'm not just giving it to someone that needs it, but also heavily thrives off of it. Gatrie has some of the highest Str and Def in the game, while also having enough Spd and growth to double and 1RKO consistently... and he also has the best 2 range weapons available, which are Axes.

 

Ike constantly needs Spd levels to double consistently and lacks good 2 range options until Ragnell. I argue Gatrie can be really damn good without that much effort, and they're basically comparable by Part 4 before the Tower.

[Jotari]

Part 3 is pretty easy before getting Ragnell though. And Ragnell is a pretty great weapon.I'm pretty sure it even gives Ike more defense than Gatrie. You're also in no rush to level Ike, as he hits a cap and then can't promote, but you are required to use him. So giving Ike seem occasional kills here and there makes him really easy to train. In other words, with good growths, bases, weapon and mandatory  use, it all turns into a unit you don't have to try very hard to make good, but invariably will be good.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Jotari

[♠Soul♠]

People make it seem like he's easily Top 3, when there's other characters that do perform similiarly, and sometimes even better. Most of the GMs are pretty great and can outclass him up until he gets Ragnell.

[vanguard333]

Honestly, Radiant Dawn isn't very kind to the playable generals (Gatrie, Brom, Brom's daughter, and Tauroneo). Despite them getting more speed than usual for an FE game, by part 3, you're not going to see many maps that play to the strengths of a general character (namely defend maps and maps with lots of chokepoints so they can stand there and obliterate incoming enemies). Even if you give Gatrie boots or celerity to account for movement, he still risks crumbling against a strong hammer user or a mage, especially with Radiant Dawn bringing back dark magic. Ike doesn't have great resistance either, but he's more likely to dodge than Gatrie is.

I will say that I do dislike that Ike in Radiant Dawn is more likely to have speed problems compared to Path of Radiance Ike, so I can certainly see the argument that he's not as high on the tier list as he was in Path of Radiance pre-promotion and pre-Ragnell.

[kradeelav]

9 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Honestly, Radiant Dawn isn't very kind to the playable generals (Gatrie, Brom, Brom's daughter, and Tauroneo). Despite them getting more speed than usual for an FE game, by part 3, you're not going to see many maps that play to the strengths of a general character (namely defend maps and maps with lots of chokepoints so they can stand there and obliterate incoming enemies).

Au contraire, the Dawn Brigade chapters (notably in P3) have plenty of these kinds of maps, with Tauroneo being overleved and forced at minimum, and the game all but beating you over the head to position him like so in the one canyon chapter where Tibarn yeets Sothe off a cliff.  Then there's 2-E where you'll invariably have Brom hold a chokepoint somewhere (my favorite spot for him is the far left, as even on HM he never dies there.)

Also: in P1 you're also encouraged to use the Black Knight (and to a lesser extent, Nailah who untransformed, virtually still has the defense of a General) in 1-E as a similar chokepoint holder.

That being said, I agree in terms of the game being most unkind to Brom and Meg specifically - Meg gets screwed by poor defense + MOV when she arguably needs it most aside from Fiona. God, that game did her a massive dissservice.

[Jotari]

14 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Honestly, Radiant Dawn isn't very kind to the playable generals (Gatrie, Brom, Brom's daughter, and Tauroneo). Despite them getting more speed than usual for an FE game, by part 3, you're not going to see many maps that play to the strengths of a general character (namely defend maps and maps with lots of chokepoints so they can stand there and obliterate incoming enemies). Even if you give Gatrie boots or celerity to account for movement, he still risks crumbling against a strong hammer user or a mage, especially with Radiant Dawn bringing back dark magic. Ike doesn't have great resistance either, but he's more likely to dodge than Gatrie is.

I will say that I do dislike that Ike in Radiant Dawn is more likely to have speed problems compared to Path of Radiance Ike, so I can certainly see the argument that he's not as high on the tier list as he was in Path of Radiance pre-promotion and pre-Ragnell.

Radiant Dawn generals in average have higher res than other melee units (pegasus knights and some character exceptions aside). Dark magic is also there only nominally. It's virtually non existant as an enemy weapon type. I think the only characters in the game that use it are Izuka and some very late map reinforcements in the river crossing chapter.

[vanguard333]

1 hour ago, kradeelav said:

Au contraire, the Dawn Brigade chapters (notably in P3) have plenty of these kinds of maps, with Tauroneo being overleved and forced at minimum, and the game all but beating you over the head to position him like so in the one canyon chapter where Tibarn yeets Sothe off a cliff.  Then there's 2-E where you'll invariably have Brom hold a chokepoint somewhere (my favorite spot for him is the far left, as even on HM he never dies there.)

Also: in P1 you're also encouraged to use the Black Knight (and to a lesser extent, Nailah who untransformed, virtually still has the defense of a General) in 1-E as a similar chokepoint holder.

That being said, I agree in terms of the game being most unkind to Brom and Meg specifically - Meg gets screwed by poor defense + MOV when she arguably needs it most aside from Fiona. God, that game did her a massive dissservice.

I meant overall in terms of carrying a general unit all the way through the game. Yes; initially, the game is favourable towards generals. I just meant that it doesn't carry that through to the end. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

The Dawn Brigade has three chapters in part 3; two of which are indeed kind to the general units thanks to their map design. The third is a fog of war map so it's automatically unkind to everyone (though you could argue that it's kinder to generals since the enemy units are laguz). Due to this, odds are that you're only going to get the few very specific Dawn Brigade characters that you want to bring to the endgame high enough leveled to be viable in part 4, and that's rarely going to be Tauroneo, and pretty much never going to be Meg.

The bulk of chapters in part 3 are Greil Mercenaries chapters, and a lot of them to my recollection are more open, with only one defend chapter that I can recall (and even that one is wide open as there's a huge amount of open space outside the fort).

 

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Radiant Dawn generals in average have higher res than other melee units (pegasus knights and some character exceptions aside). Dark magic is also there only nominally. It's virtually non existant as an enemy weapon type. I think the only characters in the game that use it are Izuka and some very late map reinforcements in the river crossing chapter.

I remember Tauroneo having decent res, but I don't recall Gatrie or Brom having decent res. (double checks) Okay, so Gatrie starts with 11 res; not great, but four more than Ike. However, again, Ike is more likely to dodge.

I agree in retrospect about dark magic being fairly nominal. You are forgetting some chapters where it popped up, though; for just one example, there's the chapter where the mercenaries raid the enemy camp. Multiple enemy units, including the boss, had dark magic.

[Jotari]

1 minute ago, vanguard333 said:

I agree in retrospect about dark magic being fairly nominal. You are forgetting some chapters where it popped up, though; for just one example, there's the chapter where the mercenaries raid the enemy camp. Multiple enemy units, including the boss, had dark magic.

That's the chapter I referred to as the river crossing.

[vanguard333]

Just now, Jotari said:

That's the chapter I referred to as the river crossing.

Oh; that makes sense. I forgot that that one involved a river crossing. I was thinking, "Wait; there's no river on that mission's map" and forgot that the river crossing was part of the story, not the map itself.

Still; I could've sworn there were other chapters where dark magic appears. Not many, but some.

[Jotari]

2 minutes ago, vanguard333 said:

Oh; that makes sense. I forgot that that one involved a river crossing. I was thinking, "Wait; there's no river on that mission's map" and forgot that the river crossing was part of the story, not the map itself.

Still; I could've sworn there were other chapters where dark magic appears. Not many, but some.

That and the literal name of the chapter is River Crossing.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Jotari

[Vicious Sal]

3-8 has twoi druids as well. 1 in 3-3, 2 in 3-8, after that it's a few in 4-1 and then Izuka.

 

Dark magic is neglible. 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

20 hours ago, the actual real soul said:

And lastly, his mobility. It's a really easy fix, and that's Celerity. I don't think it's nearly as contested as people have made it seem, and I sure wouldn't give it to Haar to have overkill Mov. I'm not just giving it to someone that needs it, but also heavily thrives off of it. Gatrie has some of the highest Str and Def in the game, while also having enough Spd and growth to double and 1RKO consistently... and he also has the best 2 range weapons available, which are Axes.

Celerity is a significant investment that's hardly unique to Gatrie. I could give it to Ike, and suddenly he's doing a lot better. Or to Rhys, so he has more range for healing.

20 hours ago, the actual real soul said:

Ike constantly needs Spd levels to double consistently and lacks good 2 range options until Ragnell. I argue Gatrie can be really damn good without that much effort, and they're basically comparable by Part 4 before the Tower.

And Gatrie is doubling? Also, nothing Gatrie can bring into the tower is comparable to Ragnell. Maybe he can perform comparably with the Wishblade, but he can't get that until the Tower itself.

I can see the argument that "Gatrie is as good a combat unit as Ike, pre-Ragnell". I honestly think Gatrie is underrated, and definitely hold him in higher regard than, say, Boyd. But getting a high-accuracy, high-Might, infinite-use weapon changes a man. Not to mention, Ike's persistent mobility advantage - and not having to beware the rare enemy Hammer.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Gatrie's pretty good, and has some advantages over Ike, but I don't think he's as good. He's slower - Ike can often snag the halberdier/sniper/warrior tier of enemies to double (though he's borderline), Gatrie basically needs that 3-3 Master Crown to have any chance of doing so, and that's a hotly contested resource.

Agree that Ike might not be Top 3 though. There are just so many good units on his own team. At least one of them is clearly better (Haar) and these days I lean towards Titania being better too, though you can debate that one for sure.

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I can see the argument that "Gatrie is as good a combat unit as Ike, pre-Ragnell". I honestly think Gatrie is underrated, and definitely hold him in higher regard than, say, Boyd.

Is there anyone who doesn't? Gatrie starts with +3 str, +2 spd, and +9 def on Boyd (as well as noticeably better res), which might make you think he has a huge level lead, but actually the gap is only 2 (meaning Boyd only gets 3 more exp per kill, i.e. it takes most of part 3 for that gap to close even one level). +1 move is nice but in this case that's literally it.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

9 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Is there anyone who doesn't? Gatrie starts with +3 str, +2 spd, and +9 def on Boyd (as well as noticeably better res), which might make you think he has a huge level lead, but actually the gap is only 2 (meaning Boyd only gets 3 more exp per kill, i.e. it takes most of part 3 for that gap to close even one level). +1 move is nice but in this case that's literally it.

My perception is that a lot of people, in assessing the units, do at least one of the following:

• Assume that Boyd gets transfer bonuses from Path of Radiance, while Gatrie does not;
• Take each unit's performance in Path of Radiance into account when rating him here;
• Simply forget that Gatrie starts with B Axes, since he's pushed as a lance unit;
• Overemphasize the significance of stat caps (namely Speed) and Endgame performance, relative to Part 3 functionality.

It could be that I'm mistaken, of course, or that these perceptions have changed.

[Shadow Mir]

On 6/3/2021 at 8:54 PM, the actual real soul said:

Ike starts out with 23 Spd at base, and that's enough to double some enemies in 3-1 & 3-2. While Gatrie does have less Spd (20 at base), he also has 60% Spd growth. It's one his top 3 highest growths, tied with Str & Def. While he does have less Spd, he can potentially get more out of levels, and especially through BEXP (if necessary). It's not hard for him to cap Spd a lot easier. But we know capping it isn't the issue, as is the cap itself. He can take the 3-4 Crown either there or by 3-5, allowing him to double through all of Part 3 and only falling short by Endgame.

The thing is, the Master Crown is a contested resource. Second, iirc, while it may help in the short term, the lowered experience gain means that he might tun into issues doubling later on anyway. 

On 6/3/2021 at 8:54 PM, the actual real soul said:

And lastly, his mobility. It's a really easy fix, and that's Celerity. I don't think it's nearly as contested as people have made it seem, and I sure wouldn't give it to Haar to have overkill Mov. I'm not just giving it to someone that needs it, but also heavily thrives off of it. Gatrie has some of the highest Str and Def in the game, while also having enough Spd and growth to double and 1RKO consistently... and he also has the best 2 range weapons available, which are Axes.

Celerity is also a contested resource, as an extra 2 move can improve anyone. 

On 6/3/2021 at 8:54 PM, the actual real soul said:

Ike constantly needs Spd levels to double consistently and lacks good 2 range options until Ragnell. I argue Gatrie can be really damn good without that much effort, and they're basically comparable by Part 4 before the Tower.

Bolded: And Gatrie doesn't?

Edited June 5, 2021 by Shadow Mir

[Ether]

To be fair, Gatrie's Spd growth is nearly double that of Ike. Him getting Spd procs is a lot more reliable than Ike, so it's not really a fair comparison to make. As for Gatrie himself, I think he's among the better GMs. While the resources he needs are contested, he does very well with them, which is more than some folk can really say. On topic, I actually think that in HM at least, Boyd is really bad. Can't remember how much lower the NM Spd benchmarks are, but Boyd's base is so damn low that he needs insane luck or like... transfers + wing + crown to even try to double anything. 18 base speed is laughably awful for the GMs in part 3, especially with only a decent growth backing it and no early-capped stats to pad it with BEXP.

[Jotari]

Are Master Crows really that highly contested as items in this game where you can promote by reaching level 21? Maybe I'm just falling into noob pit traps, but I find the game long enough and the exp curve generous enough to just not need them. I give them to some of the units in my army that I'm using because of the esoteric availability, but not to the units I seriously intend to bring to the tower (except on some rare occasions where they're already on level 20 and I have no one better to use it on so I promote them in the base). This is doubly true with the Greil Mercenaries who have some of the easier chapters in Radiant Dawn. The only particularly difficult part 3 chapter for them that I can recall is the bridge chapter.

5 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

My perception is that a lot of people, in assessing the units, do at least one of the following:

• Assume that Boyd gets transfer bonuses from Path of Radiance, while Gatrie does not;
• Take each unit's performance in Path of Radiance into account when rating him here;
• Simply forget that Gatrie starts with B Axes, since he's pushed as a lance unit;
• Overemphasize the significance of stat caps (namely Speed) and Endgame performance, relative to Part 3 functionality.

It could be that I'm mistaken, of course, or that these perceptions have changed.

Gatrie starts off with B Axes? Why in the bloody world did Brom not have a lance rank then? *checks Brom's info* Oh so he had E swords...why didn't they give him E lances? I get that you want to vary the weapon types and all that, but you're just breaking my immersion by having a character forget their primary weapon type between games.

Edited June 5, 2021 by Jotari

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

3 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Gatrie starts off with B Axes? Why in the bloody world did Brom not have a lance rank then? *checks Brom's info* Oh so he had E swords...why didn't they give him E lances? I get that you want to vary the weapon types and all that, but you're just breaking my immersion by having a character forget their primary weapon type between games.

There's a funny symmetry here - Meg (a Sword Armor) gets Lances upon promotion, Brom starts with E Swords as an Axe General, and both Lance Generals (Gatrie, Tauroneo), start with Axecess.

If we ever get a Tellius remake, I'd like to see them "fix" this by having Brom start with Axes in PoR, too. It's a total retcon, but it makes him feel more distinct.

59 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

The thing is, the Master Crown is a contested resource. Second, iirc, while it may help in the short term, the lowered experience gain means that he might tun into issues doubling later on anyway. 

I actually don't see this producing any doubling issues, so long as you wait to use the Master Crown until he caps Speed. On average, this happens at level 15, so it only takes 5 level-ups. If he's a speed-capped General, then none of the EXP he gets will raise his Speed - whereas, as a Marshall, while he levels more slowly, he has a good chance of gaining Speed each time.

Mind you, I'm not advocating for using an early Master Crown on Gatrie (Haar, Titania, Shinon, and Soren are all probably more deserving). But doing so is unlikely to hurt his Speed, in the medium-turn. His Speed will falter in the long-run, but to class caps.

[Dark Holy Elf]

1 hour ago, Ether said:

To be fair, Gatrie's Spd growth is nearly double that of Ike. Him getting Spd procs is a lot more reliable than Ike, so it's not really a fair comparison to make. As for Gatrie himself, I think he's among the better GMs. While the resources he needs are contested, he does very well with them, which is more than some folk can really say. On topic, I actually think that in HM at least, Boyd is really bad. Can't remember how much lower the NM Spd benchmarks are, but Boyd's base is so damn low that he needs insane luck or like... transfers + wing + crown to even try to double anything. 18 base speed is laughably awful for the GMs in part 3, especially with only a decent growth backing it and no early-capped stats to pad it with BEXP.

Even with the higher growth, Gatrie can't actually surpass Ike's speed until he promotes, and can only build up any sort of lead during the window where he's promoted and Ike isn't (and it'll be small, most likely). Granted, if you give him the early Master Crown or a lot of BExp, that window could be pretty large.

I agree about Boyd. As someone who really liked him in PoR I was always surprised by how bad he was in RD (his doubling situation isn't any better on Normal, really, enemy speed is like 1 lower at that point). Honestly I even like Rolf better, who is more likely to double and catches up in strength surprisingly quickly, although I'm not gonna choose to argue this in a tier-like setting because there are valid complaints about the problems of a bow lock.

[Jotari]

52 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

There's a funny symmetry here - Meg (a Sword Armor) gets Lances upon promotion, Brom starts with E Swords as an Axe General, and both Lance Generals (Gatrie, Tauroneo), start with Axecess.

If we ever get a Tellius remake, I'd like to see them "fix" this by having Brom start with Axes in PoR, too. It's a total retcon, but it makes him feel more distinct.

I think I would have preferred the dichotomy if axe armours got lances, lance armours got swords and sword armours got axes. Axes would probably be a better fit for Meg too since she needs the extra power and, I'm just thinking off the top of my head here, Dawn Brigade only has two axe users with Jill and Nolan. At least for consistent use. Tauroneo's there, but largely unavailable.

 

[Ether]

11 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Even with the higher growth, Gatrie can't actually surpass Ike's speed until he promotes, and can only build up any sort of lead during the window where he's promoted and Ike isn't (and it'll be small, most likely). Granted, if you give him the early Master Crown or a lot of BExp, that window could be pretty large.

I agree about Boyd. As someone who really liked him in PoR I was always surprised by how bad he was in RD (his doubling situation isn't any better on Normal, really, enemy speed is like 1 lower at that point). Honestly I even like Rolf better, who is more likely to double and catches up in strength surprisingly quickly, although I'm not gonna choose to argue this in a tier-like setting because there are valid complaints about the problems of a bow lock.

I was considering the +2 from Gatrie's promo bonus since his T2 cap is so low that you are going to promote him early if you intend to seriously use him, so the difference in bases isn't as large in practice. Granted that was more meant to counter the idea that Ike and Gatrie both needing to proc speed to remain competitive wasn't really an equivalent comparison since Ike is far more likely to miss an important speed level. Once Gatrie hits his stride it's very unlikely that he drops it until late Part 4 when Marshall cap just doesn't stack up.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Ether said:

To be fair, Gatrie's Spd growth is nearly double that of Ike. Him getting Spd procs is a lot more reliable than Ike, so it's not really a fair comparison to make. As for Gatrie himself, I think he's among the better GMs. While the resources he needs are contested, he does very well with them, which is more than some folk can really say. On topic, I actually think that in HM at least, Boyd is really bad. Can't remember how much lower the NM Spd benchmarks are, but Boyd's base is so damn low that he needs insane luck or like... transfers + wing + crown to even try to double anything. 18 base speed is laughably awful for the GMs in part 3, especially with only a decent growth backing it and no early-capped stats to pad it with BEXP.

Even with that,  on average he needs 5 levels just to get to Ike's base, and is stuck there until promotion.

Agreed on Boyd - it's a pretty big case of "how the mighty have fallen". Going from being probably the best foot unit in Path of Radiance to whatever he is now is a massive drop.

1 hour ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I actually don't see this producing any doubling issues, so long as you wait to use the Master Crown until he caps Speed. On average, this happens at level 15, so it only takes 5 level-ups. If he's a speed-capped General, then none of the EXP he gets will raise his Speed - whereas, as a Marshall, while he levels more slowly, he has a good chance of gaining Speed each time.

Mind you, I'm not advocating for using an early Master Crown on Gatrie (Haar, Titania, Shinon, and Soren are all probably more deserving). But doing so is unlikely to hurt his Speed, in the medium-turn. His Speed will falter in the long-run, but to class caps.

Just how much experience would he be getting from a kill in third tier?? Because I don't think it's a lot.

[Interdimensional Observer]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

*checks Brom's info* Oh so he had E swords...why didn't they give him E lances? I get that you want to vary the weapon types and all that, but you're just breaking my immersion by having a character forget their primary weapon type between games.

Nephenee:
“Brom… Didn’t you say somethin’ about usin’ axes these days…not spears?”

Brom:
“Uh, yeah… I suppose I did. What, ya went and brought armor AND weapons?”

Stated at the start of 2-1. He didn't forget, he didn't want.

[Dark Holy Elf]

8 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Just how much experience would he be getting from a kill in third tier?? Because I don't think it's a lot.

More than you think, probably - the Tellius games use a different exp formula which is remarkably forgiving to your current level. If you promote Gatrie at Level 15 (as suggested), then you will find that 15/1 Gatrie gains 9 less exp per kill than Level 15 Gatrie... likely still over half, though the specifics vary based on your difficulty mode and what you're fighting.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

1 hour ago, Shadow Mir said:

Even with that,  on average he needs 5 levels just to get to Ike's base, and is stuck there until promotion.

Agreed on Boyd - it's a pretty big case of "how the mighty have fallen". Going from being probably the best foot unit in Path of Radiance to whatever he is now is a massive drop.

Just how much experience would he be getting from a kill in third tier?? Because I don't think it's a lot.

Okay then, let me put it this way - even if Gatrie were gaining 0 EXP per kill in third-tier, a --/15/01 Gatrie will still have 2 more Speed than a --/20 Gatrie, and will thereby be doubling more enemies. An early promo isn't hurting the stats he's already capped, such as HP, Strength, and Speed. But I grant, it may hurt his Skill, Luck, and Defense (all areas where a --/20 edges out a --/15/01).

Still, a more realistic comparison may be between --/20 and --/15/03, in which case, the promoted version is doing better everywhere, save for Luck. Obviously the --/20/01 would regain the advantage in non-capped areas, but it still means spending several chapters being worse.