Weak, but useful, skills to make throwaway units less pointless

[Jotari]

Heroes seem to make characters in two varieties. Either a new form of OP, or absolutely useless. This thread is about the latter, the units that come to the game offering basically nothing but their artwork. I'm not asking that every unit be competitive with damage reduction skills right out the gate, but into think there are ways they can be more creative so that were not getting units thst are just so poor. Here are sone loose ideas, any more you might have are welcome.

Hand Axe, Javelin, Wind Edge: Inheritable weapons with distant counter. We've had Lightning Breath since year 1, giving other weapons basic distant counter effects seem way overdue. The likes of Gradivus and Ragnell losing their niche isn't (and never really was) an issue anymore.

Superior Weapons from Awakening: Weapons that grand WTA against the same colour. Again not the most high tier useful weapons imaginable, but something new and unique you can give half a dozen units that has a basis in the game already.

Power Creep Valor Skills: Either lv4 variations offering increased SP, or more general versions like Red Valor for all Red Units,  or Warriors Valor for all physical units.

Heal Plus: What I feel Linhardt should have at least received. A Skill that increases healing. Basic, almost useless at this current time, but still something new.

Even Renewal: Renewal works every second turn, but it always starts on the first turn. I'm sure we'll get every turn renewal 4 some day after Alvis's recovery ring gets a buff, but until then and even befire then, I think an even turn renewal would have some use with pairing with other renewals on weapons or seals.

Siphon: An inverted Ardent Sacrifice. Letting a unit steal 10hp from an ally to heal themself. A simple skill but it's be really useful for setting up desperation builds.

More 2 range assist skills. Speak A for itself, we've had Physic since basically  the start.

Old Useful Skills in the 3-4* summoning pool: Warding Breath and it's variations are still a pretty decent A Skills. Not the best in the game, but pretty good even to this day. What's not great about it is that it's available on literally one unit meaning I don't have liberty to actually play around with it in my army. Its alsonpast time wrsthful and dazzling staff were bumped down from premium now that most new staff users are getting prfs with one of the two built in anyway.

 

If you have any more ideas for ways to make instant demote and free units useful then do sure. I say skills in the title, but if theres any particularly interesting statlines that haven't been used yet that you'd like to see then you can mention something like that too.

Edited November 21, 2021 by Jotari

[AnonymousSpeed]

Null Fighter 1/2/3: A fighter-series skill line which grants Null Follow-Up and Null C-Disrupt to armored units above 75%/50%/25% HP.

I still like the Ventriloquism, Stumble, and Wildheart skills I posted in the Create-A-Hero thread, so if Devdan and Volug were demote units, those could be neat.

Perhaps, to go along with the "Push" skills, there should be "Pull" skills- they penalize certain stats if a unit's HP isn't full, but heal some small amount after combat. Not sure that'd be useful when things like Mystic Boost are available.

[Ice Dragon]

It's unlikely they'll give demote units brand new inheritable passive skills unless they are really underwhelming and not really worth using in the first place (like Mercedes getting AR-D Spd/Res). It's really only weapon skills that can consistently get that treatment.

Personally, I'd most like to see skills that are currently only available outside of the 5-star summoning pool from Grail units to be added to the 4-star summoning pool, and that makes up the bulk of my list.

 

Quick Riposte 3 is still not available without promoting a unit to 5-star rarity, so introducing a unit that has it unlocked at 4-star rarity would be immediately useful.

Desperation 3 is currently only available unlocked on a 4-star unit from Shanna. A second source would be useful.

Hone Fliers and Goad Armor are still not available from the 4-star summoning pool.

Windsweep would also be nice to be added to the 4-star summoning pool.

Atk/Def Catch 3 was recently made available outside of 5-star exclusives through Sedgar, and I can see other tier-3 Catch and Ideal skills following suit, as their tier-3 effects are not especially impressive (other than the Atk/Spd versions as long as Atk/Spd Solo remains exclusive to 5-star units), but they would be extremely useful when inheriting the tier-4 skills because units with the tier-4 skill often have a second highly desirable skill worth inheriting at the same time.

With the exception of Spd/Res Bond 3, which is available from Tethys, all of the tier-3 Bond skills are, at best, only available from Grail units. While the skills themselves are not particularly useful, the Atk Bond skills can still be useful when inheriting the Unity skills.

Atk/Spd Push 3 is still not available in the 4-star summoning pool. There is a decent number of units with passive healing that can actually make use of the skill.

Surprisingly, Res Smoke is still not available in the 4-star summoning pool.

Flier Formation was recently added to the 4-star summoning pool through Tanith, though it was previously available through Grail units, so it would be nice to get Aerobatics, Guidance, and Flier Guidance, of which the latter two are available from Grail units.

Armorsmasher, Slaying Hammer, Keen Raudhrwolf, and Keen Blarwolf are still not available outside of the Weapon Refinery, and even then, Keen Blarwolf is only available from Ursula, who is a Grail unit. Keen Gronnwolf is currently only available from Rhajat.

Other weapons that are 5-star or Grail exclusives, but have other weapons in their series available from the 4-star summoning pool (like Firesweep Axe, Unbound Blade, etc.), should be added to the 4-star summoning pool.

 

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Its alsonpast time wrsthful and dazzling staff were bumped down from premium now that most new staff users are getting prfs with one of the two built in anyway.

Every staff unit has one of the two built into their weapon through the Weapon Refinery, and refining inheritable weapons is relatively cheap. Wrathful Staff and Dazzling Staff are still premium skills because almost every staff unit still requires both of them to function.

[Jotari]

2 hours ago, AnonymousSpeed said:

Null Fighter 1/2/3: A fighter-series skill line which grants Null Follow-Up and Null C-Disrupt to armored units above 75%/50%/25% HP.

I still like the Ventriloquism, Stumble, and Wildheart skills I posted in the Create-A-Hero thread, so if Devdan and Volug were demote units, those could be neat.

Perhaps, to go along with the "Push" skills, there should be "Pull" skills- they penalize certain stats if a unit's HP isn't full, but heal some small amount after combat. Not sure that'd be useful when things like Mystic Boost are available.

Something like that would be pretty useful as a Seal Skill. There's only one Mystic Boost seal to go around and  more than one unit who wants it.

2 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Every staff unit has one of the two built into their weapon through the Weapon Refinery, and refining inheritable weapons is relatively cheap. Wrathful Staff and Dazzling Staff are still premium skills because almost every staff unit still requires both of them to function.

Yeah, but now that were getting staff refines, people feel like they wasted an I heritage giving them to a unit when their prf comes with it, which might be the same as the one they've already inherited. Making them of easier access would get around that without weirdly giving staff users two different prf refines that are the same with the exception of one skill. I think making it so every staff unit depends on them is putting the cart before the horse. They should be giving us new B slot skills for staff units to make it so the entire weapon type isn't depending on something that's several years old and still difficult to get.

[Ice Dragon]

48 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I think making it so every staff unit depends on them is putting the cart before the horse. They should be giving us new B slot skills for staff units to make it so the entire weapon type isn't depending on something that's several years old and still difficult to get.

Wrathful Staff is absolutely necessary in order to actually viable damage, and Dazzling Staff is the best player-phase survivability B skill in the game (and would be the best-in-slot skill for the majority of player-phase units without exclusive B skills if they could learn it). The only other B skill worth using on non-armor staff units is Live to Serve, but it can be offloaded as a Sacred Seal.

Unless we get Wrathful Staff and Dazzling Staff as Sacred Seals, any new B skill for staff units almost necessarily must include one effect or the other in order to be remotely viable.

The reason the meta for staff B passives has been stagnant for the past 4 years is because Wrathful Staff and Dazzling Staff are so vastly superior to all other options that there simply isn't a way to implement a new skill with a completely different effect that can compete without making it incredibly powerful.

(The only skills that even get close are Wary Fighter and Bold Fighter. Poison Strike would also have been viable as an alternative to Wrathful Staff, but staff units are restricted from learning it.)

Edited November 21, 2021 by Ice Dragon

[indigoasis]

Ever since they introduced Menace skills, the Tier 3 variants of the double-stat Threatens have pretty much been sidelined (the most you can get is something like Threat. Def/Res 2 [only available on a grail unit, btw, just like a majority of the other double-stat Threatens], which is really just a prerequisite skill to inherit for a Menace now).

I've always liked Threaten skills, I just wish some of the double-stat ones were more widely available.

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Quick Riposte 3 is still not available without promoting a unit to 5-star rarity, so introducing a unit that has it unlocked at 4-star rarity would be immediately useful.

Same thing with Sturdy Blow 2, oddly enough.

[Ice Dragon]

21 minutes ago, indigoasis said:

Ever since they introduced Menace skills, the Tier 3 variants of the double-stat Threatens have pretty much been sidelined

Those skills are tier 4. Skill tier is indicated by the border color, not by the number after the skill name (which I normally refer to as the skill "level" to differentiate the two), which means we're probably never going to get the level-3 dual Threaten skills in the 4-star summoning pool.

 

25 minutes ago, indigoasis said:

Same thing with Sturdy Blow 2, oddly enough.

At the very least, Sturdy Blow isn't really in high demand. It's rather annoying having to constantly promote copies of Klein and Subaki because literally every non-armor, slow enemy-phase unit wants the skill. (It's at the point where I've just stopped bothering to build them, though admittedly, that's partially because recent armors are just so much better.)

[indigoasis]

40 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Those skills are tier 4. Skill tier is indicated by the border color, not by the number after the skill name (which I normally refer to as the skill "level" to differentiate the two), which means we're probably never going to get the level-3 dual Threaten skills in the 4-star summoning pool.

Whoops! I considered them Tier 3 since... well, the number. Thanks for catching that.

Anyway, yeah, I want more Threatens.

41 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

At the very least, Sturdy Blow isn't really in high demand. It's rather annoying having to constantly promote copies of Klein and Subaki because literally every non-armor, slow enemy-phase unit wants the skill. (It's at the point where I've just stopped bothering to build them, though admittedly, that's partially because recent armors are just so much better.)

I can totally agree with that. If you're trying to give a unit something like Sturdy Impact, you can easily get away with giving them Sturdy Blow 1 and going from there. 

[Michelaar]

8 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Flier Formation was recently added to the 4-star summoning pool through Tanith, though it was previously available through Grail units, so it would be nice to get Aerobatics, Guidance, and Flier Guidance, of which the latter two are available from Grail units.

Actually, Guidance 3 is still only 5* locked, the only units that have it are Legendary Ryoma, Tana and Dancing Olivia. But yeah, it's something that should be demoted, really.

[Hilda]

i would allready be glad if we had all the Book 1 and Book 2 skills in the 4 Star pool... i mean 5 years and we still dont have all those skills in the 4. Star pool lol (its sad really...)

[DefyingFates]

On 11/21/2021 at 9:49 AM, Jotari said:

Power Creep Valor Skills: Either lv4 variations offering increased SP, or more general versions like Red Valor for all Red Units,  or Warriors Valor for all physical units.

This. SO MUCH THIS. It's especially annoying since we don't even have all the Valor skills yet (due to new weapon types being added), so I've long hoped for even just a Seal called 'Spectrum Valor' or something.

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, Hilda said:

i would allready be glad if we had all the Book 1 and Book 2 skills in the 4 Star pool... i mean 5 years and we still dont have all those skills in the 4. Star pool lol (its sad really...)

While I think they could get away with inheritable distant counter, I never see then putting that in the common summoning pool. Which is another reason Handaxe and Javelin should be a thing.

4 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

This. SO MUCH THIS. It's especially annoying since we don't even have all the Valor skills yet (due to new weapon types being added), so I've long hoped for even just a Seal called 'Spectrum Valor' or something.

What Valor Skills are we missing? I'm pretty sure we're got beast Valor at some point and that's the only new weapon type added to the game. Well we have the different colour bows and stuff, but I think they're covered under the regular bow Valor. Only Valor I can't recall existing is knife Valor (which I could look up but can't be eased to on mobile). I think the tome colours are desperate valor skills though, so we are missing colourless tome Valor. Veld was their missed opportunity there.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Jotari

[Ice Dragon]

11 minutes ago, Jotari said:

What Valor Skills are we missing? I'm pretty sure we're got beast Valor at some point and that's the only new weapon type added to the game. Well we have the different colour bows and stuff, but I think they're covered under the regular bow Valor. Only Valor I can't recall existing is knife Valor (which I could look up but can't be eased to on mobile). I think the tome colours are desperate valor skills though, so we are missing colourless tome Valor. Veld was their missed opportunity there.

The only Experience and Valor skills that are currently missing are for colorless tome.

Dagger Valor was released on Halloween Sakura. It was later also given to Onsen Elise.

[Jotari]

4 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The only Experience and Valor skills that are currently missing are for colorless tome.

Dagger Valor was released on Halloween Sakura. It was later also given to Onsen Elise.

Yeah, I felt they existed, just couldn't recall ever having them. Being on seasonal units explains that.

Speaking on a colourless tome users, we could do with certain movement and weapon type combinations among common units. I do think colourless times should remain special,  but one at 4 star level wouldn't go astray. Likewise I think Garon would have been better served as a freely available armoured Dragon. I don't think he's the worst unit as is, but he's also not the best and his weapon while a nice reference, feels like it's lacking practicality (though admittedly being infantry dies help him get closer to his opponents in time to use it, though on the other hands armoured stats would probably give him the tankiness to get down and dirty in a crowd and actually use the skill to heal).

[Ice Dragon]

30 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I do think colourless times should remain special,  but one at 4 star level wouldn't go astray.

Xane exists as a 4-star colorless tome, but he's seasonal.

 

30 minutes ago, Jotari said:

Likewise I think Garon would have been better served as a freely available armoured Dragon. I don't think he's the worst unit as is, but he's also not the best and his weapon while a nice reference, feels like it's lacking practicality (though admittedly being infantry dies help him get closer to his opponents in time to use it, though on the other hands armoured stats would probably give him the tankiness to get down and dirty in a crowd and actually use the skill to heal).

At the very least, he'll be up for a refine eventually and will probably get something similar to what Skadi got, extending its effect to more than one turn.

Considering we now have Menace skills, it would be nice if they also extend the range to 4 since the effect is literally just "HP Menace".

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Xane exists as a 4-star colorless tome, but he's seasonal.]

Xane's 4-star? Wow, he's a pretty good unit for 4-star. Not fantastic, his gimmick of copying stats still leaves something to be desired for, as that's all his weapon does and most really great units are great because of some super high quality weapon skills, but he's still way better than a typical 4-star unit.

7 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

At the very least, he'll be up for a refine eventually and will probably get something similar to what Skadi got, extending its effect to more than one turn.

Considering we now have Menace skills, it would be nice if they also extend the range to 4 since the effect is literally just "HP Menace".

Much like Skadi I'd rather it be a repeating affect than having more range, though, much like Skadi, I doubt they'd ever give it a repeating affect. Though Sinmara has a repeating HP damaging affect and it's only limitation is short range. The reason not to make it repeating is to stop it being used to gimp maps, but really any map worth it's salt released now a days is difficult enough to the extent that a Garon clear would  be a rather difficult and creative solution.

Edited November 23, 2021 by Jotari