OMG it's a tier list

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

You can do both.

[Anouleth]

In overall turn saving though, training Neph gives us better results than training Marcia or Tanith. It's more important to have good units in the other part 4 maps (4-4 in particular) than 4-E, 4-E tends to last the same number of turns no matter who you're using, assuming you're deploying a lot of royals.

Training Nephenee also helps us more for part 3.

Crap, I forgot that in order to train Marcia and Tanith, we need to sacrifice Nephenee to the gods of the RNG.

Srsly, nobody is suggesting that Nephenee isn't useful in Part 3, or that Marcia > Nephenee or whatever you're implying is incorrect with that statement. Just that Marcia and Tanith are valid picks for Endgame. This whole thing started when Colonel M made an offhand comment about how Haar's speed in Part 4 not being that big a deal since we don't have to bring him to Endgame. He is correct, even if Haar's speed in Part 4 is bad, we have plenty of alternatives to bring to Endgame, which is by no means difficult to 8-turn.

[dondon151]

So I see that Mist is still almost half a tier above Rhys, and Mist (T) is in a different tier. Could we at least bring Rhys up to right below Mist (N) and combine Mist (T)?

I mean, it's one thing to insinuate that Mist > Rhys (which I still disagree with), it's another to insinuate that Mist with a minor defensive advantage that she normally has anyway is completely curbstomping Rhys.

Edited August 14, 2010 by dondon151

[Kaoz]

...I come back here and feel that I chose a wrong time for vacation...

Anyways, I'll try to get into things a bit. First of all, Mist and Rhys. I'm tempted to agree that they are too far apart, both of them serve as healers for the most part, so there is Rhys with a higher physic range and better chip damage (except for mages) on the one side and Mist with +1 Mov (+3 in part 4) and a better affinity on the other. To be honest, I fail to see that much of a difference. Chip damage is rather minor as neither will attack much, Physic range is more important, the situations where it can be utilized are rare though. Actually I suppose it could be given the same weight as the affinity. Both are useful to have, but the situations were they apply aren't common enough to make a big difference. The higher move could go for a bit more, but as Physic exists, it's also not that game-breaking. As for Part 4, Rhys goes with the Silver Army? Greil Army has Mist forced and Hawk Army has Elincia, and then they all do what they are supposed to, they heal. Rhys won't go to endgame though naturally.

All in all, it seems to me that both Rhys and Mist have their unique uses, but neither are that great of an advantage over the other, they are just useful in different situations. That being said, Mist>Rhys, because she has a chance to go to endgame, but otherwise they are equal enough to be right next to each other.

Concerning Mist (T), sure it's nice that she can take a hit, but is it really of a difference to allow another unit a spot in between? why isn't there a tier for utility units

Next, Reyson again. He's really good, no doubt, but his availability is just so poor that Haar and Ike (and maybe a few others) are easily good enough themselves. As for Haar, I think dondon's videos show what he does very well (in case someone didn't know). Actually he is a lot like Reyson in that he allows other units to fight with their full potential (e.g. Shinon in 3-2, Gatrie in 3-3), sure it might only be one unit, but that one unit can be brought to a perfect location, and it's not like Haar is a bad fighter himself. The point is, Reyson has great utility, but Haar's isn't that much worse, and on top of that he has other qualities going for him.

Apart from all that, would it maybe make sense to use different classifications than 'Top', 'High' etc.? It's only a sugestion, but it might be useful to define tiers first, one for units that are only useful in one or two chapters (Eddie, Geoffrey etc.), one for Herons, Healers and so on. Combat units that are also utility units could be listed twice. This has probably been brought up a thousand times before, but I'm curious (no, I won't make another tier list).

[Colonel M]

Actually I found Rhys's chip damage useful in some instances. It certainly is not saying much, but it is a minor advantage. Also, while Mist can shove... Mia, Rhys also has the added benefit of being able to Shove Shinon and untransformed Ulki.

I'm willing to look for more info later, but atm I have to really agree with dondon here: these two having ANY unit in between them makes absolutely no sense at all, and Mist (T) being a tier up "just because she gets out of a doubled rut faster" doesn't cut it IMO. Perhaps arguable > Rhys if Rhys > Mist were to happen, but it's only a microscopic advantage to me, I guess, when Rhys and Mist aren't usually shoved into danger often in the first place.

[Naglfar]

Rhys and Mist do need to move closer, and Mist(T) should not be a tier higher. That's been very thoroughly established. Now let's actually start arguing Mist down/Rhys up.

I'll start with Rhys > Soren. What does Soren have over Rhys? A tiny bit of extra durability? I don't think he's getting any credit for Adept, since last I checked units don't get any points for bringing gifts to the rest of your team. Correct me if I'm wrong there.

Soren and Rhys have fairly comparable combat. Both target RES with unspectacular damage, neither will ever double, and both die faster than you can say "Sofiya". In essence, they're limited to chip damage and potshots. The difference is, Soren relies on this for his entire sum of usefulness, supports notwithstanding, but who wants to support Soren anyway? At least Rhys has healing utility.

That is to say, Rhys can keep Titania on the front lines, using every one of her player phases proactively. Soren can't. Rhys can give Ike a blast of Physic when he runs ahead to take out a mage and loses a worrying amount of HP in the process. Soren can't. Rhys can build a support quickly and make the most of his time-limited utility thanks to having access to staves. Soren can't. What is there that you can do with Soren that you can't do with Rhys? Even when their combat is long since useless, Rhys can stick around as a trustworthy healer up to endgame if you like; and at least up to P4. All this by taking nothing away from the group except a deployment slot and a little bit of cash.

For Soren to warrant a deployment slot for that long he'll have to eat a damn lot of everyone else's resources. He can be crowned for staves but his combat will never be good and you already have two dedicated healers on the GMs. Even then, he needs five levels before you're even allowed to crown him and that's still a bunch of experience your less feeble units want. It's also a crown they want, for the record. If he isn't crowned early, he has to endure fifteen levels of craptastic combat that will never be good no matter what the RNG does because he has an atrocious speed cap. Once he promotes, which may not even happen in P3, he'll get E staves so he'll never use Physic anyway and another bad speed cap. Cool. He still can't take a hit and he still can't double. Who else has combat like this? RHYS DOES! While starting two levels higher with a higher staff rank that Soren will ever have! I mean, Soren can maybe avoid being doubled, but you're not letting him take hits anyway, are you? Why did we train him again?

I'll add more when I'm not typing on my Wii and have access to tabbed browsing, so I can look stuff up and make some more convincing arguments. Or at least some more in-depth and wanky ones. Did you know the Internet Channel is keyboard-compatible now? I finally have a use for that portable USB keyboard I got last Christmas.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Naglfar

[dondon151]

Well, to be fair, it is Soren (T) that is above Rhys. But even so, your point stands.

[Anouleth]

Soren (T) can actually double some stuff with a little work. Like Generals, Paladins, other Sages. And while the 3-3 Crown is obviously never going to go to him, he has a shot at the 3-6 Crown.

[Narga_Rocks]

Rhys and Mist do need to move closer, and Mist(T) should not be a tier higher. That's been very thoroughly established. Now let's actually start arguing Mist down/Rhys up.

I'll start with Rhys > Soren. What does Soren have over Rhys? A tiny bit of extra durability? I don't think he's getting any credit for Adept, since last I checked units don't get any points for bringing gifts to the rest of your team. Correct me if I'm wrong there.

Soren and Rhys have fairly comparable combat. Both target RES with unspectacular damage, neither will ever double, and both die faster than you can say "Sofiya". In essence, they're limited to chip damage and potshots. The difference is, Soren relies on this for his entire sum of usefulness, supports notwithstanding, but who wants to support Soren anyway? At least Rhys has healing utility.

That is to say, Rhys can keep Titania on the front lines, using every one of her player phases proactively. Soren can't. Rhys can give Ike a blast of Physic when he runs ahead to take out a mage and loses a worrying amount of HP in the process. Soren can't. Rhys can build a support quickly and make the most of his time-limited utility thanks to having access to staves. Soren can't. What is there that you can do with Soren that you can't do with Rhys? Even when their combat is long since useless, Rhys can stick around as a trustworthy healer up to endgame if you like; and at least up to P4. All this by taking nothing away from the group except a deployment slot and a little bit of cash.

For Soren to warrant a deployment slot for that long he'll have to eat a damn lot of everyone else's resources. He can be crowned for staves but his combat will never be good and you already have two dedicated healers on the GMs. Even then, he needs five levels before you're even allowed to crown him and that's still a bunch of experience your less feeble units want. It's also a crown they want, for the record. If he isn't crowned early, he has to endure fifteen levels of craptastic combat that will never be good no matter what the RNG does because he has an atrocious speed cap. Once he promotes, which may not even happen in P3, he'll get E staves so he'll never use Physic anyway and another bad speed cap. Cool. He still can't take a hit and he still can't double. Who else has combat like this? RHYS DOES! While starting two levels higher with a higher staff rank that Soren will ever have! I mean, Soren can maybe avoid being doubled, but you're not letting him take hits anyway, are you? Why did we train him again?

I'll add more when I'm not typing on my Wii and have access to tabbed browsing, so I can look stuff up and make some more convincing arguments. Or at least some more in-depth and wanky ones. Did you know the Internet Channel is keyboard-compatible now? I finally have a use for that portable USB keyboard I got last Christmas.

Well, to be fair, it is Soren (T) that is above Rhys. But even so, your point stands.

How do you figure? Many of his points are reliant on Soren having an 18 speed base. Unless you are going bare bones and looking at his point as: Rhys > Soren. Which he is. Or even "Rhys > Soren(T)", which is somewhat reasonable. The points themselves, however, are invalidated by the reality of 20 speed Soren.

See:

Soren (T) can actually double some stuff with a little work. Like Generals, Paladins, other Sages. And while the 3-3 Crown is obviously never going to go to him, he has a shot at the 3-6 Crown.

There's this. You (dondon) gave the 3-6 crown to Mia of all people. I'm actually kinda surprised she's still having a use that late on 0% growths, but on normal growths I doubt Mia is capping strength most of the time until 3-11 at the earliest, and there are an extra two possible crowns at that point. You didn't even use the 3-9 crown on the CRK.

If you crown Soren(T) in 3-7, he should quite easily have 25 speed. He only needs 3 procs and he caps skill and speed when he shows up. He's only 2 mag away from a cap as well. 2 or 3 levels and speed is tied for #2 growth (and is 1.4x bigger than #4, 25% vs. 35%). He shows up with spd tied for #3, so you could perhaps start bexping from the beginning. 2 bexp levels and he's there for mag. By level 10 he should have mag, skl, spd, res all capped. Since he's never going to be durable, you don't even have to care about hp, lck, def. 13 str (promotion with base str) is also enough to carry everything he can ever wield without AS loss except the long range tomes. Are you telling me he can't get 5 levels from 3-P to 3-7?

Anyway, he'll then be ORKOing some things. I think that a doubling Soren with 29 magic should be enough for the Generals. 40 mt with a fire forge and a C support, yes? He can also attempt to build his wind to SS so that he can break Rexcalibur in part 4 on some Generals. I don't know if he would be able to build the speed required to double Generals in part 4, though, but if he could that would be helpful. The 3-9 wing probably isn't best for him, though. Better on Titania or Haar or something so that a unit with an enemy phase can double.

Just as a note, I still wonder how the hell people manage to screw up the whole transfer unit thing. You (Naglfar) aren't the first, and I'm sure you won't be the last. But how blind do you have to be to not notice the (T) sitting there telling you what stats he has boosted? Or to notice the little "Soren" sitting at the bottom of middle tier.

[dondon151]

There's this. You (dondon) gave the 3-6 crown to Mia of all people. I'm actually kinda surprised she's still having a use that late on 0% growths, but on normal growths I doubt Mia is capping strength most of the time until 3-11 at the earliest, and there are an extra two possible crowns at that point. You didn't even use the 3-9 crown on the CRK.

I used it on Mia because the superior options were limited. Anyway, if Haar gets the 3-3 Master Crown, then candidates still up in the air for the 3-6 Master Crown are Nolan, Jill, and Titania. Titania especially likes to be promoted by 3-8 to OHKO generals with Hammer, and Nolan and Jill would like to have both Master Crowns available to the DB (because face it, with the piddly EXP in 3-12 and the quick clear of 3-13, neither of them are making it to promotion without a Master Crown). Whatever the case, the competition is up for the 3-6, 3-9, and 3-12 Master Crowns, leaving 1 more with 3-11. And without a ton of BEXP investment, Mia probably needs a Master Crown to be promoted by part 4.

Now the problem isn't if Soren has good parameters after a transfer. The problem is if Soren brings anything significant to the team that wasn't there before, and if his services are worth more than another Master Crown competitor's services. Even with 25 AS in 3-7, his endgame potential is close to zero. He needs 30 AS to double enemies in 4-3 (the easier of the later part 4 routs), which we can safely say is never happening. At least for this part of the game, he is gimping a valuable performer by taking a Master Crown. Then there are all of his other problems: his poor mobility (Titania has a horse and Jill has a wyvern), his poor durability (Mia's is the next worst, but she has lots of avo), and his nonexistant staff rank. Furthermore, he's not even that great as an offensive powerhouse in part 3. He can ORKO enemies safely from 2 range, including halbs and generals. That's impressive, but Titania and Haar can OHKO generals from 1 range and canto to a better position for more OHKO action, and assuming that each of them has 25 AS, they can probably ORKO halbs with a 16 MT Steel Axe. They also have far superior durability. Mia can pretty much ORKO anything with procs. Janaff and Ulki ORKO with procs, Energy Drop, supports, etc.

At least Rhys sports his 11-12 staff range, providing a situationally essential service that no one else can replicate. Soren (T)'s stats look good on paper, but I guarantee that if you tried to use him efficiently, you'd be disappointed with the results.

[Narga_Rocks]

How do you figure? Many of his points are reliant on Soren having an 18 speed base. Unless you are going bare bones and looking at his point as: Rhys > Soren. Which he is. Or even "Rhys > Soren(T)", which is somewhat reasonable. The points themselves, however, are invalidated by the reality of 20 speed Soren.

I used it on Mia because the superior options were limited. Anyway, if Haar gets the 3-3 Master Crown, then candidates still up in the air for the 3-6 Master Crown are Nolan, Jill, and Titania. Titania especially likes to be promoted by 3-8 to OHKO generals with Hammer, and Nolan and Jill would like to have both Master Crowns available to the DB (because face it, with the piddly EXP in 3-12 and the quick clear of 3-13, neither of them are making it to promotion without a Master Crown). Whatever the case, the competition is up for the 3-6, 3-9, and 3-12 Master Crowns, leaving 1 more with 3-11. And without a ton of BEXP investment, Mia probably needs a Master Crown to be promoted by part 4.

Now the problem isn't if Soren has good parameters after a transfer. The problem is if Soren brings anything significant to the team that wasn't there before, and if his services are worth more than another Master Crown competitor's services. Even with 25 AS in 3-7, his endgame potential is close to zero. He needs 30 AS to double enemies in 4-3 (the easier of the later part 4 routs), which we can safely say is never happening. At least for this part of the game, he is gimping a valuable performer by taking a Master Crown. Then there are all of his other problems: his poor mobility (Titania has a horse and Jill has a wyvern), his poor durability (Mia's is the next worst, but she has lots of avo), and his nonexistant staff rank. Furthermore, he's not even that great as an offensive powerhouse in part 3. He can ORKO enemies safely from 2 range, including halbs and generals. That's impressive, but Titania and Haar can OHKO generals from 1 range and canto to a better position for more OHKO action, and assuming that each of them has 25 AS, they can probably ORKO halbs with a 16 MT Steel Axe. They also have far superior durability. Mia can pretty much ORKO anything with procs. Janaff and Ulki ORKO with procs, Energy Drop, supports, etc.

At least Rhys sports his 11-12 staff range, providing a situationally essential service that no one else can replicate. Soren (T)'s stats look good on paper, but I guarantee that if you tried to use him efficiently, you'd be disappointed with the results.

My issue was that none of his points were valid. Not that his conclusion was necessarily incorrect. Soren(T) could potentially drop further due to competition for that crown and the 6 move he has with it. Titania got promoted mid-chapter 3-8 for you, right? And Jill might benefit from the 3-12 crown, but Nolan is probably not getting crowned until part 4 anyway. He can take either the 3-9 or 3-11 crown if you really want. No reason he has to take the 3-6 crown if he's not promoting until part 4 anyway. Soren(T) at least has a chance at that crown, even if it's not a doritos one. I don't think there is any unit that is guaranteed to be getting that particular crown.

Anyway, since Soren(T) will still have 6 move and will still have bad durability and still has no long-term prospects (aside from possibly doubling and ORKOing some Generals in part 4), how close to Soren(N) would you say Soren(T) should drop?

I'll eventually get around to moving Mist(T) down and closing the gap between her and Rhys. I'm just waiting to see how much more gets said.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Interceptor]

Titania is such a waste of a Crown.

In a normal run, she has capped her STR by 3-8, and very likely is rocking 25 AS. Assuming that she's making use of an A-rank +ATK support (AKA Mist), she's already OHKO'ing a whole mess of Generals in this chapter. Never mind that there is no need to be super-conservative with Hammer uses in the first place, because a normal run isn't going to have a bunch of idiots flailing around wearing their base stats. In other words, you also have Mia and Ike raping the faces off of Generals (the former with crits, the latter with the Brave Sword). In the worst case scenario, a OHKO degrades into a ORKO.

I don't even consider her to be seriously in the running for a Crown, except in weird corner situations. With her base starting level being what it is, and her BEXP abuse possibilities being what they are, she ought to be promoting naturally.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Interceptor

[Anouleth]

Now the problem isn't if Soren has good parameters after a transfer. The problem is if Soren brings anything significant to the team that wasn't there before, and if his services are worth more than another Master Crown competitor's services. Even with 25 AS in 3-7, his endgame potential is close to zero. He needs 30 AS to double enemies in 4-3 (the easier of the later part 4 routs), which we can safely say is never happening. At least for this part of the game, he is gimping a valuable performer by taking a Master Crown. Then there are all of his other problems: his poor mobility (Titania has a horse and Jill has a wyvern), his poor durability (Mia's is the next worst, but she has lots of avo), and his nonexistant staff rank. Furthermore, he's not even that great as an offensive powerhouse in part 3. He can ORKO enemies safely from 2 range, including halbs and generals. That's impressive, but Titania and Haar can OHKO generals from 1 range and canto to a better position for more OHKO action, and assuming that each of them has 25 AS, they can probably ORKO halbs with a 16 MT Steel Axe. They also have far superior durability. Mia can pretty much ORKO anything with procs. Janaff and Ulki ORKO with procs, Energy Drop, supports, etc.

Part 4 stuff

Staff rank can be fixed with Arms Scrolls, which are not in high demand especially come Part 4. Haar is not going to be in the same chapters as Soren, since it's a waste of his 9 move and flight, and he generally can't double in Greil Army. Hammer uses are limited, we will at least want to save some for 4-E-1 and the Black Knight. In addition, Soren is locked into Greil Army, so he can't go to 4-3. Shame, really, since he'd be really good there with the desert and the general swarm and also so I can support him with Skrimir :3.

And um, nobody is trying to argue that Soren is better than Titania/Haar/Mia/Janaff/Ulki. Just that he's better than Rhys.

At least Rhys sports his 11-12 staff range, providing a situationally essential service that no one else can replicate. Soren (T)'s stats look good on paper, but I guarantee that if you tried to use him efficiently, you'd be disappointed with the results.

I have to say, it is a little underwhelming the amount of stuff 20AS doubles. Pretty much nothing until Axe Generals in 3-1 and he doesn't even ORKO them (although nobody does).

[dondon151]

My issue was that none of his points were valid. Not that his conclusion was necessarily incorrect.

Oh, yeah, when I made my post I really meant to say "I also think Soren (T) should drop."

Titania got promoted mid-chapter 3-8 for you, right?

Keep in mind that I had as close to 0 BEXP as you could possibly get remaining after my 3-8 infusion. Now, I think that this is trivial given that I had over 25k BEXP in the beginning of 3-11 (which is where it matters), more than enough for normal usage on units like Nephenee, Mia and Ike. Keep in mind that I also had to spend basically 4 levels' worth of BEXP on Ranulf, who will probably not be seriously used on a normal playthrough, and that I spent 0 BEXP on Haar in 2-E, who should likely be getting a small infusion if we want to promote him in 3-4. However, a lot of individuals seem to be opposed to the notion of intensely pumping Titania with BEXP, so...

And Jill might benefit from the 3-12 crown, but Nolan is probably not getting crowned until part 4 anyway. He can take either the 3-9 or 3-11 crown if you really want. No reason he has to take the 3-6 crown if he's not promoting until part 4 anyway. Soren(T) at least has a chance at that crown, even if it's not a doritos one. I don't think there is any unit that is guaranteed to be getting that particular crown.

I guess I should also point out that Soren (T) could be gimping Neph's performance as well.

Anyway, since Soren(T) will still have 6 move and will still have bad durability and still has no long-term prospects (aside from possibly doubling and ORKOing some Generals in part 4), how close to Soren(N) would you say Soren(T) should drop?

I'm honestly not sure. It all really depends on how much longevity you can get out of him without taking too much away from the team. Normally we'd attribute 3-P and 3-1 to him, and that's it. It's pretty similar to how Calill gets credit for being clutch on efficient clears of 2-E and 3-9. Now if Soren gets more than 2 maps of utility, he could go above all of the CRKs and probably above Brom (in which case he'd actually be going up). The issue after that is that Mist and Rhys need to go even higher. If Soren (T) really isn't a significant improvement, then they can be slashed. It can really go either way.

Also, I don't think my approach on tiering is quite the same as the ones shared by most contributors. For crappy endgame units like Marcia, Soren, Calill, Aran, etc. I don't even consider their long term use. It's all about the most optimal contributions.

[Zkirsche]

So... I just had a thought. If transfers are assumed to be fixed mode, then some transfers, mostly teh laguz's, should change. Why? Bexp incriments. Lethe for example:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=21576&view=findpost&p=1153790

With a 100% growth she caps strength. This makes her better in part 2, better in part 3 etcetera. Janaff, too, gets teh strength boost, so Janaff (T) > Ulki. There are probably some beorc, too, who get bonuses out of this, but these two are the main ones I can recall off teh top of my head.

[dondon151]

Assuming that she's making use of an A-rank +ATK support (AKA Mist), she's already OHKO'ing a whole mess of Generals in this chapter.

What if she doesn't? I find it odd that we can assume a Mist support for Titania all the time considering that under normal circumstances, Titania is probably within support range of Mist for maybe 20% of all attacks at best. With Savior, it increases considerably, but Titania is an efficient recipient of Savior in probably 1 part 3 map (3-8), and that's only because it imposes a -2 move penalty on Haar, who is a better recipient of Savior by dropping Ike or some other dominant unit deep into enemy lines.

Never mind that there is no need to be super-conservative with Hammer uses in the first place, because a normal run isn't going to have a bunch of idiots flailing around wearing their base stats.

You have plenty of generals in part 4 to deal with, plus the entirety of 4-E-1 are generals. You only have 40 total uses of Hammer, and it's functionally impossible to OHKO the ones in 4-E-1, so I think it should go without saying that every Hammer use counts.

[Florete]

So... I just had a thought. If transfers are assumed to be fixed mode, then some transfers, mostly teh laguz's, should change. Why? Bexp incriments. Lethe for example:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=21576&view=findpost&p=1153790

With a 100% growth she caps strength. This makes her better in part 2, better in part 3 etcetera. Janaff, too, gets teh strength boost, so Janaff (T) > Ulki. There are probably some beorc, too, who get bonuses out of this, but these two are the main ones I can recall off teh top of my head.

What you say is true, but that might be going into dangerous territory. Not dangerous in the low% of happening sense, but dangerous in the "Are we really going to assume the player goes that far for +2's?" sense. The way it is now assumes the player plays PoR pretty normally with a few areas relying on specific bands or enemies. Allowing BEXP increments might be allowing too much in my opinion.

[Zkirsche]

What you say is true, but that might be going into dangerous territory. Not dangerous in the low% of happening sense, but dangerous in the "Are we really going to assume the player goes that far for +2's?" sense. The way it is now assumes the player plays PoR pretty normally with a few areas relying on specific bands or enemies. Allowing BEXP increments might be allowing too much in my opinion.

I don't see why as it's just pushing buttons and doesn't really take a lot of effort. And for +4 str it's worth it, Janaff now ORKO's very comfortably, even with just an 'A' support.

The strength also helps Lethe too. Take her starting chapter, 2-2, as an example. She now ORKO's all of the soldiers, when a Lethe (N) cannot do so to any soldier. She now 3HKO's Halbs instead of 4HKO's (less damage taken). She's better when teaming up against armours. She can 2RKO generals, when all she could do before was 4RKO them. She ORKO's archers. Better team-up against the warrior, can ORKO the thief (although that's pointless, to be fair). Etcetera. This means she's doing a siginificantly improved performance against a majority of teh map, and this means she can gain more exp by part 3. And it's a similar story for 2-E as well.

And come 3-4 her improvement is very noticeable. She now 2RKO's warriors + halbs (unlike before), ORKO's sages, 3-round, and not 4-round, SM's; 2RKO Snipers, and goes from 10-21RKO'ing generals to 4-5RKO'ing generals. Sure, this isn't amazing, but much better than what she was and is much better than what Rofl is doing and perhaps even Soren due to better mobility. Sure, cat gauge sucks, but she has a better time keeping up and better durability so tehre definitely shouldn't be tier differences between her anf Soren. 1, if that, tier different is as much as it shoudl get. And she's better than rofl, easily.

[Anouleth]

I don't see why as it's just pushing buttons and doesn't really take a lot of effort. And for +4 str it's worth it, Janaff now ORKO's very comfortably, even with just an 'A' support.

RNG abuse in general is pretty easy and doesn't take much effort. Neither does coin manipulation.

The strength also helps Lethe too. Take her starting chapter, 2-2, as an example. She now ORKO's all of the soldiers, when a Lethe (N) cannot do so to any soldier. She now 3HKO's Halbs instead of 4HKO's (less damage taken). She's better when teaming up against armours. She can 2RKO generals, when all she could do before was 4RKO them. She ORKO's archers. Better team-up against the warrior, can ORKO the thief (although that's pointless, to be fair). Etcetera. This means she's doing a siginificantly improved performance against a majority of teh map, and this means she can gain more exp by part 3. And it's a similar story for 2-E as well.

And come 3-4 her improvement is very noticeable. She now 2RKO's warriors + halbs (unlike before), ORKO's sages, 3-round, and not 4-round, SM's; 2RKO Snipers, and goes from 10-21RKO'ing generals to 4-5RKO'ing generals. Sure, this isn't amazing, but much better than what she was and is much better than what Rofl is doing and perhaps even Soren due to better mobility. Sure, cat gauge sucks, but she has a better time keeping up and better durability so tehre definitely shouldn't be tier differences between her anf Soren. 1, if that, tier different is as much as it shoudl get. And she's better than rofl, easily.

And most people wouldn't be willing to feed her 1 EXP at a time, 1100 times. I don't mind assuming a perfect player, or even a player who can see into the future and predict stat-screwage, but this player seems downright inhuman.

[Interceptor]

What if she doesn't? I find it odd that we can assume a Mist support for Titania all the time considering that under normal circumstances, Titania is probably within support range of Mist for maybe 20% of all attacks at best. With Savior, it increases considerably, but Titania is an efficient recipient of Savior in probably 1 part 3 map (3-8), and that's only because it imposes a -2 move penalty on Haar, who is a better recipient of Savior by dropping Ike or some other dominant unit deep into enemy lines.

What if she doesn't? Titania reverts to merely ORKOing Generals instead of OHKO'ing them. This is not the end of the world, since this is a world that also contains Haar (OHKOs without a support), Mia, and Ike.

I don't see what is odd about the MistxTitania support, since it's an 01 support that builds like whoa, and gives Titania concrete benefits (and Mist doesn't care who she supports). Not only that, but Mist moves at a 7, which is not exactly wheelchair-bound, can be moved by every playable character with Shove, and generally does not get put in silly positions because of Player Phase attacks (has Physic freedom).

I mean, if some useful non-ATK unit was chomping at the bit to get Titania's Light affinity, that's one thing, but that person doesn't exist.

You have plenty of generals in part 4 to deal with, plus the entirety of 4-E-1 are generals. You only have 40 total uses of Hammer, and it's functionally impossible to OHKO the ones in 4-E-1, so I think it should go without saying that every Hammer use counts.

Goes without saying? You did not even begin to address my point. Mia kills Generals for free, and Ike can pop somewhere in the neighborhood of ten Generals with Brave before he reverts to merely beating them within an inch of their lives with high-40's freaking mt from Ragnell. Never mind that Hammerne exists to extend both the effective life of Hammers and the Brave Sword, if needed.

Your own experience is evidence enough of that. You're scraping Hammer uses together, it's true. But now consider that everyone else in the world is going to have less trouble than that, since they don't have self-inflicted limiters on their offense.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Interceptor

[Zkirsche]

RNG abuse in general is pretty easy and doesn't take much effort. Neither does coin manipulation.

Except RNG abuse is impossible in fixed mode and requires resets for something taht isn't even definite. By "Easy" I meant it doesn't take that long and is a reliable practice.

And most people wouldn't be willing to feed her 1 EXP at a time, 1100 times. I don't mind assuming a perfect player, or even a player who can see into the future and predict stat-screwage, but this player seems downright inhuman.

It sounds much harder than it is and has an efficient result.

[Interceptor]

I don't really see the value of assuming RNG-abused FE9 transfers, unless we totally run out of things to discuss. And at that point, I'd just suggest forking the tier list so that we could get around the problem of multiple transfers units deployed alongside normals.

[Zkirsche]

I don't really see the value of assuming RNG-abused FE9 transfers

This isn't RNG abuse though. This is a bonus that was intentionally made for the game, and it is merely being used to it's fullest extent. The RNG doesn't even come into the equation.

[Anouleth]

This isn't RNG abuse though. This is a bonus that was intentionally made for the game, and it is merely being used to it's fullest extent. The RNG doesn't even come into the equation.

Yes, but it's like RNG abuse in the sense that it deletes the impact of individual character growths. We don't assume RNG abuse on any tier list, and I think a similiar attitude should be adopted towards this kind of manipulation.

[Interceptor]

This isn't RNG abuse though. This is a bonus that was intentionally made for the game, and it is merely being used to it's fullest extent. The RNG doesn't even come into the equation.

The form is not relevant to the substance. Substitute any term you'd like for "RNG-abused" in my post -- up to and including "teriyaki-flavored" or "kitten-powered" -- and it doesn't change my point. I don't see the value in doing it. Beyond that, and if it's decided to go down this path because we've utterly exhausted all possible alternatives, I'd just assume do it in a different list altogether.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Interceptor