Prince of Tennis Mafia - Game Over

[Paperblade]

[01:09] <Paperblade> Kaoz

[01:10] <Paperblade> will our lynch fail on C1

[01:10] <Kaoz> yes?

[01:10] <Paperblade> no matter what

[01:10] <Kaoz> why would it?

[01:10] <Paperblade> no kills

[01:10] <Kaoz> kill =/= lynch

[01:10] <Paperblade> ;/

also that doesn't address the issue that you posted two games where he was noisy and town

he was also noisy in that one pokemon game we don't talk about and town

[eclipse]

What I mean is that there's less than 24 hours gone in the phase. Unless someone does something like posts "I'M MAFIA, LYNCH ME!", I don't think everyone's vote will hold for the next 48 and then some hours.

As for Pokemon TCG. . .you KNOW why Kevin snapped, right? Problem with that game is that it's OC, so there's some things that aren't in the thread (like a relevant IP.Chat convo). In NOC, Kevin gets noisy when he's scum (Schoolboy Mafia and Agent Mini), while keeping quiet when he's not scum (Bizzaro Mafia, and to a lesser extent, Sugar Mini. . .uh, wait. . .that game). Besides, I want to hear more from him. Why is he snapping so? That's why I haven't moved my vote.

[Kaoz]

##Unvote

I am not a fan of fast bandwagons like this. It feels like people are being opportunistic and focusing on Kevin for doing what Kevin does. I'm unsure about the lynch rules too, so if Kaoz could clarify that...

As eclipse quoted, the Cycle will not end early even when majority is reached.

Not sure if JB is backtracking or legit made a mistake

neither is Fry

edit: FIXED IMAGE BECAUSE APPARENTLY THERE'S APPARENTLY A NEW FORUM RULE ABOUT HOTLINKING, KAOZ I HAVE SCREENSHOTTED THE ORIGINAL UNEDITTED POST AND CAN GIVE IT TO YOU SO IF I GET MODKILLED FOR THIS I WILL BE VERY MAD

Just don't do it again.

---

(Hopefully correct) Votals

[1] Bizz: Balcerzak

[1] eclipse: Paperblade

[2] Ether: Snike, Tables

[1] JB: Prims

[1] Kay: Bizz

[2] Kevin: eclipse, JB

[1] Prims: Paperblade

[2] No Lynch: Ether, Kay

[eclipse]

You forgot Naglfar.

[Paperblade]

... Kevin was not quiet in Sugar. Or did you forget the Day 1 argument I had with him? You know, the one that was the majority of the discussion?

Actually, rereading Sugar, Kevin sheeped a vote onto me there when he was town for the sake of a random lynch.

Kevin why so hypocrite

[Kaoz]

You forgot Naglfar.

I believe he unvoted? Or did I miss him placing another vote?

[eclipse]

Eh, sorry. I forgot that D1's default to No Lynch.

Once you were dead in Sugar, Paper, he more or less STFU. Yes, I'm rereading it. You jerk.

[Paperblade]

Yes, he got loud because he was pressured. Just like he did in this game.

Honestly I feel like you're trying to smudge Kevin at this point

[eclipse]

And I feel like you're blowing it out of proportion. I'll decide whether I keep my vote on Kevin when he gets in here and explains himself. I've got plenty of time to find a better target.

[Paperblade]

I don't see how having a discussion is blowing something out of proportion. You said something, I disagreed, and with it being something like 2AM here so everyone else is asleep, we might as well talk about that.

[eclipse]

I think I've justified myself enough at this point, and it's really late for both of us. How 'bout we continue this after we both wake up? Scumhunting sucks when you're sleepy.

[Paperblade]

Sleeping is a scumtell

[Jaybee]

If sleeping is a scumtell I'm fucked.

also why so much meta =(

[Balcerzak]

Is anybody else getting weird vibes from this post? He said my vote was "rather scummy" yet he hopped on Kevin's wagon anyway, meaning he's attack Kevin for voting over something he thinks is scummy. This doesn't look like proper logic to me, and it also looks like an attempt to discredit my posts on JB's part. I don't really trust his vote.

I hadn't noticed that on first pass, and honestly Naglfar's post came off worse to me. (Probably for reasons which may not be valid, but hey, sometimes gut happens, and that's why you need second+ pass to try to logic them.) Still, this has been noted, as has the "correction of intent" offered up here.

---

While we're on this subject, let's go back to Naglfar's post, shall we?

Isn't this what Kevin does every D1?

scroll scroll scroll

yep

Except he seems even more neurotic than usual.

The purpose of Prims's actions isn't immediately obvious, but I can see something in there that isn't necessarily scummy. CAN YOU?

##Vote: Kevin

dance, motherfucker

Now, perhaps what set me off most about this is the tone. This could just be my style, but coming in as the fourth person on a wagon, that's very inflammatory. I would expect that to come at the beginning to try to get the initial rise to generated some heat and content to analyze. When you're deliberately inciting someone as they're approaching majority it feels like you're no longer striving for information, but to cause them to flip out and cross the limit whether they deserve it or not.

Obviously everyone has different ways of conducting themself, and I don't want to necessarily pass any judgement here, but I'm just going to say that really sort of rubbed me the wrong way. Again I think it was mostly a gut-level response here, that I had to try to figure out later the "why" of, but if I just sit on my opinions rather then discuss them, even when they may be questionable, then that's bad for the game.

---

Let's get some discussion going shall we?

##Vote: Kay

You're usually the most quiet, and therefore the least beneficial to town, why should we not lynch you?

Beats me. Go ahead, see if I care.

...way to be pro-town, Kay. This causes all kinds of sour feelings. There are much better ways to handle a pressure vote than complete apathy, and saying that there is no reason for the town not to lynch you, and that you wouldn't care if they did.

Unvote:

Vote: Kay

Bizz's reaction to a pressure vote was better handled, refusing to get riled up while at the same time in a level fashion insisting she was town. Now this by no means implies she actually is or is not, but as a deflection strategy it is much more palatable to my taste. Your later addition of

You're saying I was just folding to make people happy? You're referring to me saying I didn't care if Kevin thought I should be policy lynched?, I assume? Because that definitely wasn't my intention, I was just feeling contrary, and I couldn't think of a good way to annoy him.

moves in the right direction, but reads into Kevin's initial pressure a lot more malicious intent than I ever saw from it, and continues to espouse ideas antithetical to progress. Sure, you may have some reason to feel contrary to Kevin, but be mindful not to cut off your nose to spite your face here. And further, he's already certainly been annoyed on other matters, adding fuel to the fire just seems a dangerous play here, as I already noted in my Naglfar portion.

---

People believing that "If I were scum" is a hard scumtell is baffling to me. I have never found it to be particularly problematic unless it's used to delibrately invoke retarded WIFOM along the lines of "if I were scum I wouldn't do something that scummy", but I don't think people actually do that aside from newbies. <_< The other option is to just let an unfounded attack on me fly.

I've never seen "If I were scum" as a scum-tell either, and have frequently used it as town with perfectly good intentions in the past. Maybe it's a community based thing? As long as there is sound arguementation provided, I don't see anything wrong with offering contrary-to-fact conditionals and assessing them on their own merits. Is it a weapon scum can use? Sure. But so is just about any other form of defense.

---

Praise be to Kaoz for informing me SF board software supports horizontal rules. Banzai!

[Tables]

Not really any content from Tables and Snike either

I'm sorry that I need to sleep, Levity . At a different time to you.

Firstly ##Unvote: Ether('s sub). He talked. Kinda. And it's no longer RVS.

Moving on, does anybody else feel that Balcerzak is incredibly scummy? I got a bit of a bad vibe from him after reading that last post, and having gone back and reread the rest of the thread, I don't feel it's much better. Almost all of his posts on pages 1-2 were 'hey let's look at the rules and discuss possible roles/stuff' which is generally a great thing for scum to do, as it sets people talking about the wrong thing. Then that most recent post... he seems quite interested in painting non-tells as scumtells (e.g. apathy, mood of posts). In short, I feel he's actively trying to mislead the town, which I don't need to explain is pretty scummy.

##Vote: Balcerzak.

Right now, The speed the wagon built on Kevin and the lack of evidence against him makes me think he's probably town, or at least, that I can trust him a little. Levity is giving me a gut feeling of her being scum, but, well, she often does. Other than that, I have no strong views on people right now.

[Balcerzak]

Moving on, does anybody else feel that Balcerzak is incredibly scummy? I got a bit of a bad vibe from him after reading that last post, and having gone back and reread the rest of the thread, I don't feel it's much better. Almost all of his posts on pages 1-2 were 'hey let's look at the rules and discuss possible roles/stuff' which is generally a great thing for scum to do, as it sets people talking about the wrong thing. Then that most recent post... he seems quite interested in painting non-tells as scumtells (e.g. apathy, mood of posts). In short, I feel he's actively trying to mislead the town, which I don't need to explain is pretty scummy.

##Vote: Balcerzak.

Right now, The speed the wagon built on Kevin and the lack of evidence against him makes me think he's probably town, or at least, that I can trust him a little. Levity is giving me a gut feeling of her being scum, but, well, she often does. Other than that, I have no strong views on people right now.

Tables, discussion on rules, possible game set-up (ratio scum:town, etc.), and the like is my standard operating procedure. It provides a spring-board of something to begin discussion, and I disagree strongly that these are the "wrong" things to talk about necessarily. Yes, an in-depth multi-page battle over them would be stupid and foolish, but you note that after the initial canvassing I generally just let the topic go rather than beat it like a dead horse. Maybe it doesn't actually end up helping, but any sort of survey where you can look for shared opinions has the potential to be interesting, and somewhere to move forward from in the future. It's all about laying groundwork. With that said, my scum-hunting and tell-finding has always been the weakest part of my game, so I suppose there's always room for improvement.

I would argue that compared to a barrage of short small posts that leap hither and thither, a la Levity, is more misdirecting than single consolidated reports, and I'm willing at any time to stop any line of "perceived misdirection". Just call me out on it and give me something else to try to talk about and I'm all for it. Hell, I even enjoy having to defend myself, because I often feel that is one of the very few things in mafia that I actually almost excel at. But in the absence of anything I can think of to discuss, I'm not going to just sit by and say nothing all game.

[eclipse]

I never saw the speed of a vote pile as an indicator of whether or not someone's town/mafia. Perhaps it's because I haven't played in enough NOC.

[Prims]

Kevin was pushed to L-2 within the timespan of 5 hours. As much as I'd like to believe town is full of total badasses who can out scum in the first 24 hours of D1 without a single objection or attempt to start a counterwagon from the scum team, it just doesn't really happen. Earlygame is a bad time for bussing, too, since numbers are important to scum and D1 cases tend to become a lot less notable after flips exist.

Sure, it's not entirely impossible Kevin is scum who managed to get 7 townies to attack him while the rest of the scum were being idle, but based on prior experience with D1 wagons like this it seems rather unlikely to me.

I'm not really feeling either Balcerzak or Kay as scum, but I do think that Balcerzak's attack on Naglfar looks based on personality rather than scumminess.

[eclipse]

Hmm, I see. Perhaps it would be better to break down who voted for Kevin so far, in the order that they voted, and the reason they gave?

(and my advance apologies if the collected comments insult you, Kevin)

Paperblade - No reason

Prims - No reason

An explanation of Paperblade's vote?

JBCWK - "getting pissy over two votes"

Naglfar - "he seems more neurotic than usual"

Me - hypocrisy

Paper's unvote - not happy with the speed of the bandwagon

Prims' unvote - didn't deserve the bandwagon

Naglfar's unvote - to satisfy Bizz?

A better explanation of JB's vote

Better explanation from me

Just in case you missed it the first time

If I missed something, sorry!

Right now, I believe that Kevin needs to explain himself better. Thus, my vote stays.

[Prims]

I'm pretty sure I posted serious reasons for voting him sometime into my argument with him.

That said, I believe JB is the worst of the wagon for reasons I've already gone over. Even in his recent defense post he seems to somewhat follow the pattern of "oh, I guess that's not too bad, but I still want to vote Kevin". The vote feels shaky and I feel it's possible he was trying to certify that Kevin became a wagon.

[Zkirsche]

Gooood discussion is gooood.

Think I'm scummy or no, I always get discussion started.

Except he seems even more neurotic than usual.

People say this every game.

And if I do this every game then surely it doesn't make me anymore or less scum.

Must I remind you why I got on your case during Pokemon TCG? For those of you that didn't play, read from D2, and look at what Kevin does, like, almost immediately after the phase begins.

Must I remind you that what you said there was total rubbish anyway and that I still don't agree with it? There is no reason not to out reasoning. You have never once fully addressed that point. Instead you chose to think that I was complaining that psych wasn't acting like Psych anymore when it really had very little to do with that.

Hiding non-important information is what scum do. Townies shouldn't follow suit.

Anyway that's all I can say for now.

[Percivalé]

Balcerzak doesn't feel too outright scummy to me. I guess I can get where Tables is coming from, though--my initial vibes on Balcerzak were that of scum,but they weren't necessarily enough for a vote. Kay's overall apathy still makes me wary, and she doesn't seem to have a solid opinion of her own.

I don't feel that this "bizz is always scum" meta is very fair to me. /: Also, I think looking at past games that Kevin played in is moot, but that's just me.

e.g. apathy,

I don't like to meta, but I have seen this as a tell before. Just saying.

[eclipse]

Here's a refresher

Mind you, I was doing everything in my power to get myself lynched in that game.

And what was that about townies hiding information?

You say that lynch votes need reasons, and yet you vote without reason. You say townies shouldn't hide important information, and yet you did, which caused the town to lose. In short, your actions go against all of your own recommendations.

I need to leave really soon. I hope you have a better response for me, because if you don't, I'm not moving my vote. Acting neurotic fucks with scumhunting, and you need to cut it out.

[Kaoz]

Strawman has been subbed in for Ether.

[Percivalé]

I would argue that compared to a barrage of short small posts that leap hither and thither, a la Levity, is more misdirecting than single consolidated reports

My collective barrage of attacks last night might have seem unwarranted and rather odd, but it's a way for me to get the feel of a game on D1. I look over posts and people and point to things that either are there or, I suppose, truly aren't, and see how they react to it or how they don't react to it. I don't necessarily like concentrating/tunnel-visioning on one or two players in particular until I start getting more solid reads, and my opinions do change rapidly, which is something I can't really fix.

This was just the purpose of what I was doing last night. It's not that I meant to misdirect or mislead anyone; D1 is just an incredibly indecisive time for me most of the time. My posts recently have been short, but they'll probably lengthen up once the game progresses.

Still feeling odd on Kay, however.