Prince of Tennis Mafia - Game Over

[Strawman]

Yo!

Now time to go read this entire thread I guess.

[Zkirsche]

Here's a refresher

I reread D2 before even responding.

And what was that about townies hiding information?

I believe hiding the fact that you're going to protect someone is worth keeping secrte.

You say that lynch votes need reasons, and yet you vote without reason.

I didn't vote without reason. I gave my exlipcit thoughts on you teh day before, and said in the post that I wanted to pile the pressure on you. That is not "without reason"

You say townies shouldn't hide important information, and yet you did, which caused the town to lose. In short, your actions go against all of your own recommendations.

I said important information shouldn't be outed, and yes, having a doc skill remaining is kind of an important thing.

Beats me. Go ahead, see if I care.

Kay. (c wut i did thar?)

##Unvote

##Vote: Kay

Prims has done an adequate amount for the town. Whereas this is just not the way to respond to a pressure vote at all.

That does very little if the target of the pressure chooses to just not give a damn and not respond. Which seems to be happening right now.

Then we lynch said user.

and my advance apologies if the collected comments insult you, Kevin

Haha I dish out what I can take.

Tables, discussion on rules, possible game set-up (ratio scum:town, etc.), and the like is my standard operating procedure.

As much as I support meta-gaming, Bal might be taking it a bit far this game. I swear every one of his posts has a meta game of it in.

In NOC, Kevin gets noisy when he's scum (Schoolboy Mafia and Agent Mini), while keeping quiet when he's not scum (Bizzaro Mafia, and to a lesser extent, Sugar Mini. . .uh, wait. . .that game).

As much as I hate to metagame myself, I became fairly quiet after proto died in schoolboy. And I was noisy in FE4 Mafia, pokemon legendaries and pokemon TCG mafia. All of which I was town. Conversely I was also quiet in Mitnala and was scum, though that's going back quite far.

[Snike]

##Unvote

So much text, so little time. I've got a few comments, though. Mostly about this kevin versus eclipse lynch. While I agree Kevin looks somewhat scummy, I'm a bit concerned that eclipse's reaction to being accused is to immediately jump on Kevin some more. That looks like a classic push, to me.

[Paperblade]

Also I'm not sure if I like eclipse trying to smudge Kevin based on actions in past games is entirely reasonable especially when it's so debatable. This just feels so off =/

[Snike]

STOP READING MY MIND

[Paperblade]

I'm pretty sure I kind of said that last night. But yeah, I think I'll keep my vote where it is for now

[Strawman]

##Unvote(I assume I need to do this to get rid of that No lynch vote)

Eh, I don't actually find Kevin that scummy, to be honest. He way overreacted to Prims' vote, sure, but that's just how he reacts to multiple early votes. Not to mention Prims makes a good point in that other people did start voting him rather quickly.

Now let's see, I think I'll ##Vote:Tables.

You aren't at the very top of my suspicions list, but I find it strange you vote for Bal for for some of his rule discussion. We have plenty of time to discuss things with a 72 hour cycle that a little discussion of the rules at the beginning doesn't really seem like it'd be that distracting.

[Tables]

I have to admit, Eclipse's reasoning does strike me as odd. Kevin is always like this. It's how he plays. This would be like me saying 'Life swore at Psych more times than usual, he's scum' which would just be ridiculous (actually, Life swearing more times than usual is pretty ridiculous). But... I'm not sure I would say faulty logic is much of a scumtell.

Now back to Balcerzak.

Tables, discussion on rules, possible game set-up (ratio scum:town, etc.), and the like is my standard operating procedure. It provides a spring-board of something to begin discussion, and I disagree strongly that these are the "wrong" things to talk about necessarily. Yes, an in-depth multi-page battle over them would be stupid and foolish, but you note that after the initial canvassing I generally just let the topic go rather than beat it like a dead horse. Maybe it doesn't actually end up helping, but any sort of survey where you can look for shared opinions has the potential to be interesting, and somewhere to move forward from in the future. It's all about laying groundwork. With that said, my scum-hunting and tell-finding has always been the weakest part of my game, so I suppose there's always room for improvement.

I've had a look, and well it seems like you're always scum in all the games I checked. And of course that means you must be here too The ones I could find where you weren't, and the ones I did check otherwise, you didn't do this. Which is pretty strange if it's your 'standard operating procedure'. I mean, that in itself isn't suspicious, but just, uh, yeah.

Here's the other thing: You were doing it until into page 2, when there was already other useful discussion occuring. Like the Kirsche/Primis thing. And so while I agree that it can be useful, the way you were doing it... didn't seem to be. Sorry, Bal, but I don't find this actually all that convincing.

I would argue that compared to a barrage of short small posts that leap hither and thither, a la Levity, is more misdirecting than single consolidated reports, and I'm willing at any time to stop any line of "perceived misdirection". Just call me out on it and give me something else to try to talk about and I'm all for it. Hell, I even enjoy having to defend myself, because I often feel that is one of the very few things in mafia that I actually almost excel at. But in the absence of anything I can think of to discuss, I'm not going to just sit by and say nothing all game.

I think a long report sways opinion far more, although numbers of voters and bandwagons are obviously more effective still. As for why I think your direction is wrong: Attitude in a game isn't something that can be taken as a scumtell. I'd say about 90% of the time when someone seems to be getting angry, or apathetic, or something, they're town who are getting upset about the direction town are taking or haven't gotten interesting in the game. Mafia members are far more likely to try and keep a cool head, to look more 'town'. Just like what I'm doing! A lot of the time for example, you'll see big arguments between two people, both town, both convinced the other must be scum, and in reality the mafia are actually just egging them on subtly from the sidelines, trying to get the lynch (and discussion) to stay on them. The mafia are far more successful joining and directing the wagon than they are when they try and start it.

As for you... you're a very good mafia player, both as town and as mafia. But as mafia, you're incredibly hard to pin down. You still play to help the town, and you still make good points about things. But here, I've been paying attention, and I haven't liked what I've seen. For now, I'm keeping my suspicions where they are.

[Prims]

Snike's post feels pretty slim, given how much has happened since the last time he said anything.

It's kind of sad that we have 3 no-voters right now. I want to hear more from Kay - I re-read her earlier post and I'm not sure where my previous town read on her was coming from. I don't necessarily agree her apathy is scummy in this context, but it looked like she was just shooting for the easiest things to talk about and not really doing anything pro-active. If I had to choose a more "popular" wagon to shoot for right now, it would probably be her, but I'm still the most interested in lynching JB because his jump on Kevin's wagon still looks bad to me.

[Snike]

TBH, I'm not paying much attention to this game, partially because of other commitments, partially because it's unicycle, and partially because I'm not as interested in it as I have been in previous games. I'm debating asking for a sub, since on one hand, apathy, but on the other hand, this is probably going to be my last SF game in a while.

Anyways, if you're expecting a wall of text from me, I'm going to have to let you down, man. I just made a comment about the actual part that I deemed relevant at the time.

[Snike]

Actually, screw it, just sub me out.

[Kaoz]

Let's talk about that in a little bit again.

[Snike]

Ignore my previous post.

Let's see, what is there to discuss... Oh, uh, Lalu.

It should probably wait until Cycle 2, since RL issues and other commitments might cause people to be relatively inactive. I'd normally agree, but this isn't real-time, soo....

Kevin Polling is a new thing. I don't personally see that vote as a sheep vote, myself. It's more like extra pressure. A single vote isn't going to get anyone to talk on D1, even with just 10 players.

Other kevin stuff, well, is par for the course, sadly. It's kind of like Proto in recent games, tbh. =/

As I said earlier, eclipse is really driving his lynch, especially after being called out by Paperbro. I don't like that, but I don't think that dislike is strong enough for a vote.

[Balcerzak]

My collective barrage of attacks last night might have seem unwarranted and rather odd, but it's a way for me to get the feel of a game on D1. I look over posts and people and point to things that either are there or, I suppose, truly aren't, and see how they react to it or how they don't react to it. I don't necessarily like concentrating/tunnel-visioning on one or two players in particular until I start getting more solid reads, and my opinions do change rapidly, which is something I can't really fix.

This was just the purpose of what I was doing last night. It's not that I meant to misdirect or mislead anyone; D1 is just an incredibly indecisive time for me most of the time. My posts recently have been short, but they'll probably lengthen up once the game progresses.

Still feeling odd on Kay, however.

I wasn't trying to say that your intents was to misguide or deceive, necessarily, but such erratic behaviour is probably part of what makes it really hard for me to get any sort of handle on you at all (and probably why you always out-play me). I came up against much the same thing just recently with 13thShadow in JB's current game, FE4 mafia, only he took that and cranked it to eleven, and I could not make heads or tails of what was going on, pretty much until he subbed out and things calmed back down. So it just goes to show that everybody processes information in different ways, and I guess all I'm really trying to say is, I've been trying to get a handle on things my own way, and it looks like that's rubbing a few people the wrong way. I usually have no way of knowing this until something is said.

Now back to Balcerzak.

I've had a look, and well it seems like you're always scum in all the games I checked. And of course that means you must be here too The ones I could find where you weren't, and the ones I did check otherwise, you didn't do this. Which is pretty strange if it's your 'standard operating procedure'. I mean, that in itself isn't suspicious, but just, uh, yeah.

Here's the other thing: You were doing it until into page 2, when there was already other useful discussion occuring. Like the Kirsche/Primis thing. And so while I agree that it can be useful, the way you were doing it... didn't seem to be. Sorry, Bal, but I don't find this actually all that convincing.

Yeah, I'm not going to lie, I flip scum a lot more than is really comfortable for my health. And while I did do some digging back, I didn't go very far. I will say that (although ongoing and nobody can prove I'm not scum) in Choral 4 I've already brought up numerous types of these sorts of discussions. There was the bit about rule 11 on Day 1. When Cult and Mason both flipped dead on morning of day 2 there was a pronounced discussion on the specifics of recruitments, mismasoning, and other sorts of "meta" flavors that I most certainly took part in, etc. In Tales of Vesperia, when the hidden players flipped, I believe I was one of the first to start the open speculation on the distribution of pro-, anti-, and neutral players in their midst and some of the relative amounts of faction balance. Perhaps I did misrepresent my position a little here, and implied that this discussion always took place at the beginning of D1, but to be fair that's not always when certain rules questions or clarification or set-up options become apparent and I suddenly feel like it might be important to discuss them. Sometimes it's a relatively random process, other times it is clearly spurred by unfolding events.

I'm not going to lie, but when I saw the "example" role, it seemed like if that actually existed, it might prove a very good reason why we might want to consider asking for an investigator to start the day off immediately with a claim, so that there could be double legwork on cycle 2. A lot of EM games begin in this fashion. The existence of the limited SMS OC would also potentially make this an attractive option. The only major things standing in the way of this were: not knowing the actual role setup of the game, and not knowing the general opinions of the other members on the course of action.

I think a long report sways opinion far more, although numbers of voters and bandwagons are obviously more effective still. As for why I think your direction is wrong: Attitude in a game isn't something that can be taken as a scumtell. I'd say about 90% of the time when someone seems to be getting angry, or apathetic, or something, they're town who are getting upset about the direction town are taking or haven't gotten interesting in the game. Mafia members are far more likely to try and keep a cool head, to look more 'town'. Just like what I'm doing! A lot of the time for example, you'll see big arguments between two people, both town, both convinced the other must be scum, and in reality the mafia are actually just egging them on subtly from the sidelines, trying to get the lynch (and discussion) to stay on them. The mafia are far more successful joining and directing the wagon than they are when they try and start it.

There's definitely something to be said for this. The thing is, Naglfar's post did feel more like an egging than a general escalating back-and-forth. Part of that may be due to the fact that kirsche was probably asleep and couldn't reply to the provocation, and thus things could very easily have developed differently if it was in real-time. Also the whole situation was different, with it not really being a 1 vs 1 (like Sho vs Proto on the nature of town thieves and jack-of-all-trades) with outside interference, but more of an everyone-vs-kevin. I'll definitely try to tone things back and avoid unwarranted interpretation, but it's often a judgement call, and on Day 1, more likely than not a lot of mistakes will end up being made.

Actually looking back at things, I don't know why I decided that I thought Kay's apathy was a worse read, because typing all of this up, it feels like I should have voted differently... :S

##Unvote

##Vote: Naglfar

It's still early enough in the phase to try to keep feeling things out. While he's already been grilled a bit by Bizz over this issue, I don't think he was ever actually put in the hot-seat, and there's been a lot of other developments he could comment on. I'd like to hear his opinion on whether or not I was unjust in levying some criticism, or if he felt it detracted from the proper flow of the D1 discussion, at least.

[Zkirsche]

Bal is talking sense, as usual. Though I really hate Kay's attitude to being pressured, giving up is just terribad.

[Deliriyum]

You can add me to the list of subs.

[Tables]

Hm.

##Unvote: Balcerzak

You're still my main FoS, but, dammit Bal, stop arguing so well . Makes it so hard to get a read on you. Nobody else seems suspicious, so I'll drop the case for the time being, and focus on the areas others are already looking at hey didn't I say something like that was a scumtell earlier?.

[eclipse]

Part of my problem with Kevin is that his excuse of "I always act scummy" is horribly stupid. It's basically a cop-out for whatever shit he's pulling this time. As Bizz said about Naglfar:

So you can get a free pass to vote without proper reason as scum?

I don't like a free pass on acting scummy because it's his MO. I want him to cut it out, because it's fucking annoying. I'd prefer it if he'd do it without the threat of being lynched.

Anyway, someone gave me a bit of neat advice right before the game started. I'd be doing him a disservice if I didn't follow it, so. . .back to everyone else, before I lose my temper again.

- Paper, you know exactly what I'm talking about, in regards to past behavior. I don't want to go into more details, because it will result in bruised feelings.

- Bal. . .while it's cool that you're finally talking, CM4 is going on, and one of the hosts is playing in this game. Can we pretend it doesn't exist for the time being?

- I don't mind Levity throwing out suspicion, but I wish it were a bit more organized.

- Kay, this is your time to speak. Weekend's coming up, and I know you disappear.

[Jaybee]

I still don't like Kevin for his reaction to the early votes, but I guess? I can let it slide a bit now.

##Unvote

##Vote: Kay

I know you're somewhere.

[Kaoz]

Current Votals:

[1] eclipse: Paperblade

[1] JB: Prims

[3] Kay: Bizz, Kevin, JB

[1] Kevin: eclipse

[1] Naglfar: Bal

[1] No Lynch: Kay

[Paperblade]

I would kind of like JB to give an opinion rather than just throwing a vote on whoever has the most votes

##Unvote, ##Vote; JB

[Strawman]

Kaoz, bro, I totally have a vote on Tables, don't I?

[eclipse]

WTF at the current votal having less votes than an earlier one.

[Kay]

...way to be pro-town, Kay. This causes all kinds of sour feelings. There are much better ways to handle a pressure vote than complete apathy, and saying that there is no reason for the town not to lynch you, and that you wouldn't care if they did.

Yeah. I agree with you. But I generally don't like being asked why people should bother letting me play the game if I'm just that stupid, which is how I interpreted Kevin's post. Yes, it's not logical, I'm a horrible person for ever not liking anyone's attitude, I get it. If Kevin had made any actual point instead of just that I wasn't worth not lynching, I would have addressed them.

Bal is talking sense, as usual. Though I really hate Kay's attitude to being pressured, giving up is just terribad.

I'm not giving up. I've been busy, I made a stupid post before I was too busy to say anything else, I get that it was a bad idea and I shouldn't have signed up for the game if I might have a life and I'm not skilled enough to be in it anyway, but my intent was never anything about giving up.

I haven't had that much time to read the game, I'm just trying to address what I can as soon as I can, so no, I don't have any solid reads on anyone, I'm still working on that. All I can say is that JB should post more too, but I can't say that because it's hypocritical, so you're just going to have to deal with that for now.

[Naglfar]

There's definitely something to be said for this. The thing is, Naglfar's post did feel more like an egging than a general escalating back-and-forth. Part of that may be due to the fact that kirsche was probably asleep and couldn't reply to the provocation, and thus things could very easily have developed differently if it was in real-time. Also the whole situation was different, with it not really being a 1 vs 1 (like Sho vs Proto on the nature of town thieves and jack-of-all-trades) with outside interference, but more of an everyone-vs-kevin. I'll definitely try to tone things back and avoid unwarranted interpretation, but it's often a judgement call, and on Day 1, more likely than not a lot of mistakes will end up being made.

So your suspicion of me, and your subsequent vote, is based on what again?

Before I forget, I'm always fine with your little essays. Relevant or not, they stir up something to read, and maybe reply to occasionally. I suppose I could be better at identifying which ones are intended to mislead, but you're good at keeping the town awake and talking about everyone but you, which is always a good thing as long as you're not scum, in which case it's a good thing as long as we keep paying attention.

Snike's recent contribution sort of rubs me the wrong way ("bluh I don't really care about this" "let's not LaLu!"). It looks like some weak attempt to cover his/Kay's/Tables's asses, even though the only one in realistic danger of being lynched at the time was Kay. I guess I'll wait and see where all this goes.

Back to me. My Kevin vote, right? Pressure. I wanted to see how he would react to another vote, but it turned out to be more trouble than it was worth and he was asleep anyway. I'm not sure what else you want me to say on the matter.