Draft Mafia Round 2: AnonyDraft gameOver

[Olivier]

Rein if you read this post please put it in Top Tier in the Mafia Post Tier List.

Also as Bear said, not posting for the first 24 hours of the game is not really inactivity. People have lives and you can't expect them to be there from the very moment the puck is dropped. That's really why I'm not liking people prodding inactives- it's a day into D1. Yeah, some inactive scum have been skating by in the past few games, but that doesn't mean you votepark inactives in the very beginning of the game and stop scumhunting. I don't think FLC is really doing this but Okarin seems to be leaning onto this side.

On another note, it irks me when people (Bear) say they're going to make a post and then leave without making one. Like, it doesn't actually take an hour to read through only a couple pages of posts and formulate an opinion. However, voting someone for this is just empty noise. Okarin is moving up on my scumdar.

And guys stop saying I'm town I don't want to die.

I'm still here. I'm at post 64, if that helps give you an idea of what I'm doing.

[All Might]

Less ego, actual scumhunting. Welcome. Teal on default skin is somewhat hard, but highlighting/replying exists.

I'd prefer getting everyone into the game sooner than later. Having someone jump in mid-game usually results in "lemme reread everything". If the game is lucky, we get a post off of it. Someone who decides that the last sixth of D1 is a good time to be active is worse. Not everyone will be around at phase end, so the sooner things are said, the better. I'd rather have a lynch plan formulated during the last 12 hours of D1 rather than the last 12 minutes. I don't like that Red Text ran off without doing anything, nor do I like Okarin's follow. Spongebob/Scumnori/plutonium are forgettable in a bad way, and everyone else is Not Getting A Vote Right Now territory.

[Cú Chulainn]

Is that really all you are going to say? You don't make RVS votes on someone who's moved past RVS discussion, and especially not in a way that's so ambiguous that it looks like a real vote.

Current Scumreads:

Okarin

Scumnori

Not really getting this Plutonium wagon; will reread his posts.

[All Might]

Couldn't this happen a couple hours earlier, when I wasn't about to be busy? Bah. Scumnori's passive tone worries me, but isn't enough to warrant a vote (yet). See you tomorrow.

[Cú Chulainn]

NVM Plutonium is active lurking hard add him to my scumreads.

Spongebob isn't really "forgettable in a bad way", he's just inactive.

Also, I'm surprised that out of all you people prodding inactives, nobody has mentioned Tesla, the one person who hasn't even made a single post yet.

[Cú Chulainn]

Sorry, I should really say that Plutonium's been inactive lurking hard. Not only have his two posts been sparse, they've been very shallow and generally wishy-washy. People who want to prod inactives should go after this guy, who is more the definition of inactive scum than the people who have been genuinely inactive.

[No Elimination]

@Caliban: When did I ever votepark this game? My vote on RockMySocks was simply because I saw her online and wanted to see if I could get a response out of her. There is a such thing as lurking guys, so the intention of the vote was to avoid that, especially in a game (at the time at least) that was pretty much void of discussion.

@Scumnori: Well for starters I'm not liking you right now. You deflected all the questions asked at you as well as the miniwagon on you, you ignored all the other situations that have occurred and decided to only focus on me. The problem isn't with asking me for my input, but if you're gonna ask others for input you should at least put some input in yourself.

Still waiting on that Bear Knight post, and would like to see more input from Plutonium and Moonside. Speaking of forgettable people, I'd like to see more from Balboa when he/she returns.

Robin's egg and RockMySocks (albeit not many posts so far) have looked townie to me so far, as well as Caliban. They're scumhunting and adding to discussion, which is more than most people so far.

[Rain Nijika]

Okarin: Ah ok. That explains it. I was curious as to why you all of a sudden decided to vote me when I hadn't been on all day, but you must have caught me right as I signed on. That makes sense.

Besides that, while I'm looking for something from Bear Knight, I don't find what they're doing especially scummy. I'd much rather have someone go through in depth and really read what happened as opposed to skim over and possibly miss something. You never know what might stick out to one person really reading things. Now, if we don't get a post from them by, say, tomorrow, then of course I'm going to start to find them suspicious. But until then.. eh.

[Elieson]

Votals:

Bear_Knight (3): Spongebob, FourLeafClover, Okarin (L-4)

Scumnori (3): plutonium95, Moonside, Caliban (L-4)

Okarin (2): Navo, Balboa

plutonium (2): RockMySocks, Robin's Egg

FourLeafClover (1): Bear_Knight

Voteless: Scumnori, Tesla.

Time left in phase: 51 Hours. 7 to Hammer.

_{*Caliban, you never unvoted before voting for Scumnori.}

[Olivier]

Forewarning: The following post contains copious amounts of text. Viewer discretion is advised.

[silly]Tonight's special at the Bear Castle: Lucky Charms with a side of Rocky Road. DEEELICIOUS ~ [/silly]

Stop fishing.

Ok, so Clover overreacts to Robin's joke-massclaim and subsequent vote after an rvs switch. This accusation pretty much came out of the blue, which sets the alarms off.

Maybe one day you'll not be an idiot. But that will be the day you learn why tunneling is a shitty strategy.

Ok, personal attack + instant tunneling accusation. Keep in mind this exchange is within 40 minutes of beginning the exchange, and less than 2 hours into the phase.

Tunneling is also a shitty strategy as mafia, too. Guess that slipped your mind. Which makes you an idiot. Along with pretending to shoot someone who has interactions with exactly one person while half the game hasn't even posted, since a real town dayvig this early in the game means that you transcend incompetence.

Non-sequitor to what Trollbin was saying, followed by 2 personal attacks. Still under 2 hours into the phase. Monumental overreaction could sum this up.

So I go and add to the wagon, with my two words, "Lighten up." I'll address that later. Onto:

Town dayvig would have no reason to shoot that early. Scum dayvig would be begging for a lynch. All you did was blow a nice midgame gambit early, which is stupid. If you don't like being called stupid, stop playing stupid. Tunneling because someone called your fucking bluff is stupid, too.

The rest of the votes are too lazy to be worth a mention.

I agree here with the first part where dayvigging early is not a wise move, but again, you're resorting to personal attacks. Note that tunneling has been an accusation that's being thrown around, despite this game being just over 12 hours in at this point.

Because "OMFG one person called me out that person has to be scum!" is bad reasoning, which is a gigantic null tell. The only thing I agree with him on is the lack of participation in this game. No other serious prodding of players except for me, just votes with flimsy reasoning. I'm waiting for Moonside to show up. What's your excuse?

Calling someone out = calling them an idiot/accusing them of fishing/accusing them of tunneling + calling them an idiot when GameAge < 2 Hours?

Let's take a break from Clover for a moment, and see how Mr. Balboa is doing.

Well I'm here now, and I'm loling at these vote reasons by the bandwagon crew:

Being serious about a game is not scummy in itself, and all these vague votes seem fishy.

[/color]Half the SF populace doesn't understand RVS though.

All that being said, I am leaning more towards Robin being town than FLC right now. Hiding behind "you're tunneling" is not an excuse when it isn't so much tunneling as it is pointing out that you're scummy, especially when you're not putting pressure on him for it. At this point I'm not entirely convinced that they're not doing the typical townie bicker fest (with FLC doing most of the bickering), so I'll make a decision later, after I've had soom food and put more thought into it.

There's serious and then there's superoverreacting, and if you can't understand the difference, then you may need to work on your tone analysis.

Also, RVS votes being suspicious despite it only being like 14 hours into the phase is slightly ridiculous, bandwagon or not. This makes me a bit suspicious of you.

With regards to the reads, I agree with the fact that FLC accusing Trollbin of tunneling is a defensive play, but I sort of disagree in the sense that it's a "bickerfest". It reads to me more like he's trying to shame our feathered friend into pursuing other targets.

Now, back to our scheduled programming.

I'm seriously annoyed by dumb shit tactics. Deal with it.

Tactics?

Now that we've established that I have no fucking sense of humor and a nasty temper, onward.

##Unvote

##Vote: Caliban

What is obvious to one isn't obvious to all, unless you know something that I don't. The only obvious things to me are my role PM and drafting order. Overly serious is a null tell, not a scum tell; some of us play seriously. You've had the opportunity to interact with others, and have chosen to concentrate on me, despite all the lovely attention I've gained. Is the rest of the game really that null? If they are that bad, then why aren't you doing things to make them not null?

I think "overly serious" is understating the case. I also think your definition of 'serious' is absurd.

As for the concentration comment, this looks to be another remark trying to shift attention to the other players. It would be reasonable, if not for the previous posts you've made.

Also, null is not bad when it isn't even 24 hours in.

All I see are badly-founded accusations being thrown my way. "No sense of humor" is a null tell.

Re: Stupid dayvigging - Shooting too early deprives the town of interactions. Associative reads become null if someone dies at the tail end of RVS. Pulling that stunt late D1 might have a little more merit, especially if there's competing wagons. Not that I care - if I'm going down, I might as well tell you precisely what I think of your antics before I flip.

My current FoS is the large swath of people that are letting our not-dayvig do their scumhunting for them. Did the rest of the players fall off the face of the planet? Is it that hard to prod others?

1: The accusation leveled towards you of overreacting is not badly-founded. Neither is the 'you have no idea what tunneling is' one by Robin.

2. Yes, we know that. How in hell is this relevant to the questions Moonrise directed towards you?

3. Inactivity commentary. ~16 hours into the phase. This again looks like you're trying to shift attention. Also, please don't assign motives.

Balboa Round 2:

Missed this:

I really don't think that being serious, or overly serious, is a scum tell. Remember Kevin in prince of tennis mafia? He flipped out D1 in RVS stage yet turned out to be town. Might've just been Kevin being Kevin though.

Because i don't want to go to bed without a vote, my biggest concern right now is the speed at which the wagon formed. 3 votes in just over an hour with all three people citing the same bland and lazy reason just reeks of suspicious. That said, the first person to start a wagon usually isn't scum and Caliban is at least trying to contribute. Okarin just made his vote and left, never to be seen again.

##Vote: Okarin

Just sheer coincidence that you were my RVS vote, but thinking about this wagon and your contribution (and lack thereof) I'm throwing down my vote on my biggest FoS.

Again, there's serious, overly serious, and just plain overreacting. Clover does the third.

Thank you for calling me and the others lazy for an RVS vote when in the RVS stage. But, wait a second, didn't you say that they were vague last time?

Also, I'd like to note that Balboa's repeating FLC's earlier stance on the votes, in that they're lazy. I'm officially suspicious of you.

Now for some more Luck:

If you don't like the lack of discussion, you create it. Yes, you're free to dislike me/yell at me. No, I'm not giving a pass to people who waltz in, place a vote, and leave. Let's pretend a theoretical dayvig shoots right here and now. Can the town derive any associative reads from your corpse, besides me?

Not-Dayvig has done a great job of not considering the rest of the game as scum/not scum. You focusing all your attention on me isn't helping the town at all. See that dayvig question? Pretend you're the one that's been shot.

Bold is being a pain, so I need to change my vote in the next post.

OK, so why are you so obsessed with the dayvig? Also, with regards to the hypothetical scenario, just because one's demise only reveals associative reads limited to one person doesn't mean that they should shift their attention if they think you're scum. They just need to pay attention to more than one players, is all.

Also, more deflection.

##Unvote

##Vote: Bear Knight

Your logic is very unhelpful.

You're taking my two words posted just over six hours before this post, and ten hours into the phase as logic. Back when one could safely assume that the game was still in RVS. Right.

Repeat what he said when he voted for me. Tell me how that is conducive to scumhunting.

(on a different note, we're out of each other's heads, and I hope it stays that way)

Aside: Moonside, Pressure would be a better way of putting what I wanted with that vote into words.

OK, so you're not picking on Spongebob, who voted me with "Hello," as not being conducive to scumhunting. Yes, it was like the 10th-11th vote of the game. Keep in mind that this is 10 hours into the game.

I'd argue that it gives a lot of null reads, since all you're focusing on is me. What happens if your lone read ends up dead for whatever stupid reason? The only thing I have to thank you for is reminding me that I need to get many different interactions in as possible.

Perhaps YOU are part of the problem regarding the lack of reads. I don't see you attempting to engage anyone else seriously, and that only contributes to the lack of reads.

To everyone else: I apologized to the host for such a lazy game. Stop standing around and start talking. As of typing this, there's two more people besides me that exist.

Ok FLC, we get that we're focusing on you. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's Robin's or anyone else's fault that that is the case, as you like to suggest. IMO, it's your suspect behaviour which causes you the be the center of attention.

With regards to the everyone else, this is more inactivity talk, once again within the first 24 hours of the game, and a push to misrepresent the less talkative people as inactive and 'lazy', which, as a result, makes me feel like you're pushing. Lazy in particular is being mentioned quite often.

Arguing semantics on whether two words counts as getting info isn't going to find scum. My vote isn't going anywhere until I get a response.

I think the most pro-town thing I can do at this point is to ignore the blathering idiot in teal until he feels like trying to interact with the other people in the game.

I think the point was the vote was to gain info, which is indirectly true. My two cents (literally) shouldn't be analyzed too deeply that early in the phase.

Personal attacks resume here as well, as a side note.

This is slightly better in terms of activity. I don't care for lulls in momentum, unless the mod says so. Games as of late have gone stagnent D3+, which is extremely bad for the town.

Don't mind Caliban's reads, really dislike his position on not prodding inactives. Too much prodding of the same people tends to result in infighting or a consensus to wait. Neither is desirable.

It's easy to say that something is a joke after it's said. I take what's said seriously, especially when it comes to advertising what you are/aren't. I think I have beaten to death why the "joke post" was stupid.

Still waiting for my response. In the meantime, you poor souls on IE who use Chrome should download Firefox instead.

1. Talking about activity here. Still sub- 24 hours at this point in time. D1 activity isn't exactly directly related to D3, though, so there isn't much supporting logic behind activity pushes this early into the game, as others have mentioned.

2. In-fighting is desirable since it allows input from other players. Disliking people based off of positions on inactives on D1 is incredible, in a negative sense.

3. This was early D1, so you really don't have an excuse for that massive overreaction, joke claim or not. Yes, it was foolish to do that, but that still doesn't justify your response.

4. Working on it. Also, I agree with the poor IE users' comment.

So we skip a few posts, where I get voted for taking more than 30 minutes to post (This isn't a pizza delivery service, kthnx), Caliban makes a relatively solid argument for not prodding this early into the game, and scumnori exists while I reaffirm my existence.

Less ego, actual scumhunting. Welcome. Teal on default skin is somewhat hard, but highlighting/replying exists.

I'd prefer getting everyone into the game sooner than later. Having someone jump in mid-game usually results in "lemme reread everything". If the game is lucky, we get a post off of it. Someone who decides that the last sixth of D1 is a good time to be active is worse. Not everyone will be around at phase end, so the sooner things are said, the better. I'd rather have a lynch plan formulated during the last 12 hours of D1 rather than the last 12 minutes. I don't like that Red Text ran off without doing anything, nor do I like Okarin's follow. Spongebob/Scumnori/plutonium are forgettable in a bad way, and everyone else is Not Getting A Vote Right Now territory.

Incidentally, this is just after Robin unvotes Clover. Ironically, this is a SMP with my post affirming my existence.

Look, I'm not saying that this isn't generally speaking pro-town speech outside of context, but this is justifying prodding less than 24 hours into a game, which is, once again, ridiculous by virtue of different schedules. Post-36 to 48 hours, I'm fine with prods, but here, it reads as a justification for trying to shift attention onto perceived inactives, which I view as scummy.

I am not going to analyse the next post as it provides another read and a farewell, which isn't much to argue aside from scumnori's passivity, which I am going to look over at a later time.

I am going to keep my vote on FLC, for reasons outlined in my commentary/criticism, as well as the fact that I, unlike Loki, do not lack conviction.

I am also suspicious of Balboa at the moment, for seemingly echoing Clover's points, and, to a much lesser extent, Okarin for what I perceive as prod voting.

[Cú Chulainn]

When I said "votepark", I meant "being content with not scumhunting".

Post 1: RVS.<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">

Post 2: Wagoning on FLC. You later claimed this to be a reaction-test. Meh.

Post 3: You defend your earlier actions and vote for an inactive.

Post 4: Why you think poking at inactives is important.

Post 5: More defending yourself.

Post 6: You ask RMS a question. Not really anything.

Post 7: Not anything.

Post 8: Nothing except telling Bear to hurry up with his post.

Post 9: Not anything.

These are your posts up to the point I said that you were just prodding inactives and doing nothing else.

Post 10: The first post that even attempts at scumhunting. Even then half your post is either fluff or you defending yourself.

Also, my apologies Elie.

[Cú Chulainn]

2. In-fighting is desirable since it allows input from other players. Disliking people based off of positions on inactives on D1 is incredible, in a negative sense.

Every moment spent in-fighting is a moment not spent on looking for scum. Very rarely is infighting ever desirable.

Other than that, your case against FLC is good enough, but I don't really like how you spent like 2 hours reading the thread and making the post, and then focused only on FLC and Balboa. After all that time, are they really the only worthwhile reads you have? As for the case itself, I'm sort of waffling on how to interpret FLC's tone. Initially I agreed with you, then I started thinking that he was just really unhumorous, and now I'm not entirely sure. However, I dislike your case against Balboa. It hinges completely on the fact that he interpreted FLC's tone in a different way than you did. A different opinion is not exactly a scumtell.

On a different note, I am really not a fan of how Scumnori came back, hand-waved basically everything against him in a one-liner, and then left again.

[C. C.]

Wow, this forum mafia goes by much swiftly than the other ones I've been on. Oh well, onto the topic:

right now though i would like to Octothorpe Octothorpe Vote user plutonium95 since he danced around my earlier question by never actually explaining why scumnori was scummy. if you believe we have "little info" then why withhold your own opinions and give us less to talk about?<br style="color: rgb(59, 131, 138); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(239, 255, 240); ">

##Vote: plutonium95 (L-5)

I was implying that I had a gut feeling of his vote being more "directed" than random d1 votes. Make of it what you will.

Yes I have been active lurking, but I'm simply looking at the posts and seeing if there's anything of importance, and I wouldn't want to jump to any conclusions. Plus, the arguing I'm seeing right now is d1 town bicker, IMO.

Leaving my vote on Scumnori - He hasn't exactly added anything, and was yet again vague.

Reads(All going to be wrong):

Bear_Knight

Town - The fact that he's trying to get the point across (http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=35167&st=80&p=2129272entry2129272, etc.) and bypass all this filler seems good enough to me.

Okarin

Leaning town - Seems to be searching for relevant information

Caliban - ? -Making pragmatic arguments, could be easily either affiliation.

FLC/Robin's Egg - They're both scum or town, but I'm probably wrong.

inb4d1lynch=me D:

[Olivier]

Every moment spent in-fighting is a moment not spent on looking for scum. Very rarely is infighting ever desirable.

I get this feeling that 'infighting' here is the act of inter-alliance squabbles, and not inter-village. If this is the case, I dun goofed. Sorry.

Other than that, your case against FLC is good enough, but I don't really like how you spent like 2 hours reading the thread and making the post, and then focused only on FLC and Balboa. After all that time, are they really the only worthwhile reads you have?

The lack of other reads was intentional, as it would dilute the message of my post. But now, here are some more reads, my tempestuous friend.

-Okarin bothers me for the pro-prod stance and the vote on RSR.

-It felt like Moonrise was defending me late page 2 (40ppv), which I find odd. Null read for now, though

-See below for Scumnori

I don't really feel comfortable discussing town reads, as I feel that helps the mafia pick targets.

However, I dislike your case against Balboa. It hinges completely on the fact that he interpreted FLC's tone in a different way than you did. A different opinion is not exactly a scumtell.

I think it's more than that. His first post can be read as an echo of Clover's 'stupid' remarks, with regards to Sidekick. This might be a result of the fact that Rocky has posted all of five posts, so the scum read might be hasty. However, I doubt it as this point in time.

On a different note, I am really not a fan of how Scumnori came back, hand-waved basically everything against him in a one-liner, and then left again.

This is sadly accurate of his behaviour, according to the ISO. That should probably be remedied, no? I mean, Navo and plutonium (?) have posted about 1 more post than he has, and they're infinitely more helpful than this character.

[Cú Chulainn]

All you are seeing is in-town bicker? Through the 90-something posts that have been made since the start of the game, only Scumnori's two posts are striking you as scummy? Also, while jumping to conclusions is bad, giving hastily constructed opinions is better than giving no opinions at all, which is basically what you have been doing up to this point. And for someone who's against being hasty, your suspicion against Scumnori was awfully quick. Finally, be more confident in your reads. They might be right, they might be wrong, but being unsure of yourself won't accomplish anything at all.

@Bear- What does inter-alliance even mean in a non-multifaction game?

[No Elimination]

##Unvote

I feel like Bear_Knight's only focusing on FLC, with most of his/her argument echoed points from earlier posts, and his reads on everyone else seem half-assed. However, there are two characters that strike as scummier right now. Scumnori for reasons I stated earlier, and plutonium95 for his latest post. Not only does he admit to active lurking, his list post was nothing but uninformative one-liners.

##Vote Plutonium95

[Olivier]

All you are seeing is in-town bicker? Through the 90-something posts that have been made since the start of the game, only Scumnori's two posts are striking you as scummy? Also, while jumping to conclusions is bad, giving hastily constructed opinions is better than giving no opinions at all, which is basically what you have been doing up to this point. And for someone who's against being hasty, your suspicion against Scumnori was awfully quick. Finally, be more confident in your reads. They might be right, they might be wrong, but being unsure of yourself won't accomplish anything at all.

@Bear- What does inter-alliance even mean in a non-multifaction game?

Aside: I first thought this was directed entirely at me, but then I got to the @ symbol.

@Wizard:I mean as in like arguments within a little bandwagon, not within a faction (town/scum). I understand that I misinterpreted that horribly.

I think Okarin just got a bit more suspicious with that latest post. I could go on a rant about how his statements about my argument are justifiably false and the sheer irony of calling my stated reads 'half-assed', but I'd like to instead point out that he chose to attack plutonium and I over defending himself, which resulted in his pretty blatant snub of Caliban's ISO post.

[Rain Nijika]

Blah giant posts full of lots of little snippets of text are hard enough to read without the text being all different colors. Bear Knight, in the future, it'd be easier if you could either link to the posts you're quoting, or break things up into smaller posts as you read. It would a) be a lot easier to read and b) if you take the second option get rid of the problem of "I'm reading and not posting even though I said I would".

Moving on from there...

Yes I have been active lurking, but I'm simply looking at the posts and seeing if there's anything of importance, and I wouldn't want to jump to any conclusions. Plus, the arguing I'm seeing right now is d1 town bicker, IMO.

Nope, don't like this one bit. First you admit to active lurking (though really at this point it's turned more into inactive lurking. Being around but not saying anything.) and then you say that you're looking at posts to find important things and don't want to jump to conclusions. Nothing in there says to me that you have a good reason for not posting your thoughts. Alright, so the arguing is "in town bicker". So what? You can comment on those posts, you can comment on the posts that aren't fighting, or you can just post your thoughts. You not posting anything gives us nothing. It doesn't allow us to get reads, and it also doesn't allow us to get reads on other people if you eventually flip. The more you talk about the game, the more you interact with people, the better reads we get from people. What you are doing right now is actively unhelpful to the town because you're around and getting reads but you're not sharing them and you're not creating relationships with other people for us to read later. I am perfectly content leaving my vote here.

[All Might]

You took that long to attempt to defend your vote on me with a side of "personal attacks"? I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you haven't played with me before, Red Text. Print this and frame it above your bed.

EMOTION IS A NULL TELL.

I will also disagree about Balboa, as he's not in my forgettable group (though this might not be the case 24 hours from now). Tesla's so forgettable that I didn't realize he was playing. plutonium's starting to be memorable in a scummy way. So is Okarin. Neither had the temerity to over-examine one facet of the game and call it contribution. Thus, my vote stays put until you catch up with the rest of the game.

[Kamina]

There's serious and then there's superoverreacting, and if you can't understand the difference, then you may need to work on your tone analysis.

All those votes mentioned FLC being too serious though and not stating that he's overreacting. I got the impression that the votes were more at "Why are you taking Robin's egg seriously when he's joking around". And yes I know FLC was overreacting, but "being too serious" =/= "superoverreacting".

Also, RVS votes being suspicious despite it only being like 14 hours into the phase is slightly ridiculous, bandwagon or not. This makes me a bit suspicious of you.

I do not believe they are simply RVS votes though. Tbh I felt that it didn't matter how many votes one was to put on FLC, the reaction and attitude of FLC was unlikely to change. Though its entirely plausible other people felt otherwise, my gut does not approve of 3 "reaction tests" in about an hour. To me, it felt more of a scum-influenced wagon than a set of RVS votes. And it still feels that way.

but I sort of disagree in the sense that it's a "bickerfest".

You're right, that was a poor choice of words. Just typical townie banter then, if that suits you better.

Thank you for calling me and the others lazy for an RVS vote when in

the RVS stage. But, wait a second, didn't you say that they were vague last

time?

A vague vote is a lazy vote. It means you've thrown the vote on without expressing much thought and by not expressing one's thought, your reasoning appears vague.

Also, I'd like to note that Balboa's repeating FLC's earlier stance on the votes, in that they're lazy. I'm officially suspicious of you.

Yes because they were lazy.

Okarin is finally contributing and thus i will unvote. I'll reread plutonium's posts because a lot has happened while I was away and it gets hard to keep up with it all. For now though:

##Unvote

[Shiki Ryougi]

Is that really all you are going to say? You don't make RVS votes on someone who's moved past RVS discussion, and especially not in a way that's so ambiguous that it looks like a real vote.

Current Scumreads:

Okarin

Scumnori

Not really getting this Plutonium wagon; will reread his posts.

I can't tell if this is directed at me, but I don't really understand my wagon. I've made two posts, and I haven't been around. My vote was also made during RVS, so... Plutonium, can you explain how I'm being vague?

I don't like Balboa's last post. He assumes what the votes on FLC were about without asking, then goes into a theory about scum-influence on FLC. Well, while that wagon may have been influenced, nobody is going to quicklynch that soon into phase. Earlygame wagons are just stupid.

I really don't like plutonium's last post, and his vote on me. I've been doing the same thing as him, activity wise (except I've actually not been home) and he's voting me? He's also just echoing everybody else saying I'm being vague. I think his reads are off too, especially about FLC/Robins. If anything, I'd think they'd be on different teams.

Caliban seems townie to me, he's just being all-around useful. To respond to another one of his posts (he seems to mention my not being here a lot), I have not been here. I have not had time to make more than what I did post.

[Olivier]

Going to be gone for the next 6 hours or so, but, just want to say that I think Clover just misrepresented my argument, and uh Balboa looks worse for ignoring Okarin's dodge, not withstanding the choice to take votes 10 hours into the game as entirely serious. I'll elaborate when I get something other than a tablet to post from (ie, later).

[Ochako Uraraka]

Eh. Caliban seems to be fairly town right now. They're defending their votes, giving reads, and generally seem to be useful. (Though using IE... tsk tsk tsk) I don't like Moonside's vote on Scumnori (get back here? Seriously? Dude. Give some reasoning behind your votes beyond "get back here") but besides that, seems to be contributing to the town. If it wasn't for the vote I'd say for sure leaning town, but that empty vote puts me back towards neutral. Though, I have to say. I'm not sure I'd call 3 votes a wagon in a 13 player game. Especially early D1.

My vote was not empty: He just said "lol Robin stop being stupid *votes him*" and then disappeared. I'm pretty sure everyone has something to say about our situation. Even if we were just RVSing on the beginning, I want him to come here and do something.

I agree that plutonium95 or whatever should explain his reasoning rather than say "I don't like this/I find it wrong" without further explaining of his point. Though I have to say that I understand his votes and they make sense to me.

Also, something bugs me.

I really don't think that being serious, or overly serious, is a scum tell. Remember Kevin in prince of tennis mafia? He flipped out D1 in RVS stage yet turned out to be town. Might've just been Kevin being Kevin though.

Because i don't want to go to bed without a vote, my biggest concern right now is the speed at which the wagon formed. 3 votes in just over an hour with all three people citing the same bland and lazy reason just reeks of suspicious. That said, the first person to start a wagon usually isn't scum and Caliban is at least trying to contribute. Okarin just made his vote and left, never to be seen again.

I really dislike fallacies that compare one situation to another, and then they say "look, it doesn't work because X did Y and it didn't work" or "look, there was a time on which X did Y and he suceeded". The situations just aren't the same, stop using them as arguments or backup. Also, what is this? "the first person to start a wagon usually isn't scum"? The way you said "all three people citing the same bland and lazy reason just reeks of suspicious" then didn't bring this up any further bugs me.

I believe Caliban has a good point agaisnt Okarin. He seems to me as if he's faking activity with low quality posts, which are mostly composed of voting inactives simply because they're inactive, and leaving the Robin/FLC case aside as if it was meaningless. It's an effective way for scum to seem like they're contributing but in actuality they're just faking it.

Wow, this forum mafia goes by much swiftly than the other ones I've been on. Oh well, onto the topic:

I was implying that I had a gut feeling of his vote being more "directed" than random d1 votes. Make of it what you will.

Yes I have been active lurking, but I'm simply looking at the posts and seeing if there's anything of importance, and I wouldn't want to jump to any conclusions. Plus, the arguing I'm seeing right now is d1 town bicker, IMO.

So, the best course of action is to ignore it completely and continue to active lurk. /sarcasm

Leaving my vote on Scumnori - He hasn't exactly added anything, and was yet again vague.

Reads(All going to be wrong):

Bear_Knight

Town - The fact that he's trying to get the point across (http://serenesforest...2, etc.) and bypass all this filler seems good enough to me.

Okarin

Leaning town - Seems to be searching for relevant information

Caliban - ? -Making pragmatic arguments, could be easily either affiliation.

FLC/Robin's Egg - They're both scum or town, but I'm probably wrong.

inb4d1lynch=me D:

I want your analysis of the current situation, soldier. Your opinion is fine, but I also want your analysis.

-It felt like Moonrise was defending me late page 2 (40ppv), which I find odd. Null read for now, though

-See below for Scumnori

I don't really feel comfortable discussing town reads, as I feel that helps the mafia pick targets.

.... I was defending you? What. Also, is that the only thing you think about me? >:

How is discussing town reads bad for the Town? The reads could be wrong, it won't really help the Mafia: The Town needs to work together and share their thoughts to get to the bottom of this, since it's the only way we can find the Mafia, which knows more than we do and have the advantage.

I do not believe they are simply RVS votes though. Tbh I felt that it didn't matter how many votes one was to put on FLC, the reaction and attitude of FLC was unlikely to change. Though its entirely plausible other people felt otherwise, my gut does not approve of 3 "reaction tests" in about an hour. To me, it felt more of a scum-influenced wagon than a set of RVS votes. And it still feels that way.

Scum-influenced wagon, huh. Then what do you think about the players who made these 3 reaction tests? Who looks scummy?

[Cú Chulainn]

Still leaning scum on Scumnori and I'm not really happy with his explanation that his vote was RVS since it really didn't come off as that (to me, anyways) but I'll give him a pass for it right now.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Okarin

I think I explained my reasons for this well enough later.

[Cú Chulainn]

Still leaning scum on Scumnori and I'm not really happy with his explanation that his vote was RVS since it really didn't come off as that (to me, anyways) but I'll give him a pass for it right now.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Okarin

I think I explained my reasons for this well enough later.

Well enough earlier*

Also, to clarify, I'm giving Scumnori a momentary pass because it's possible I'm interpreting his tone in that first post incorrectly. Plus I find Okarin scummier right now anyways.