Almost OC Mafia - Game Over

[CT075]

-You were avoiding discussion by not posting any reads or what you though of the GP/FFM fiasco, which means we can't get any idea on what your priority is like, if you even had any.

next

- And if you didn't that would be weird because there was enough to have at least a small priority.

does poly not count as a priority

-If you feel Poly's more likely to be scum than GP then that's weird because Poly has like, only 4 posts in the game compared to the numerous posts GP has and she also has done more than Poly. Considering that you have questioned her and now I see a wall of replies between you and GP, I'm inclined to think that you do have a stronger read on her than Poly. I have a hard time believing Poly's higher on your priority list.

please don't tell me that you find it impossible for me to have a strong read on someone that isn't a scumread (hint: it rhymes with "sound")

[CT075]

oh yeah after staying up for really long writing a history paper and repeatedly getting excited at seeing refa posting (before eventual disappointment) i'm going to bed so don't expect more spamposting

[Refa]

GP is trying too hard to avoid tying herself down to a vote/reads; she's saying "oh this could maybe be scummy but I'm not really reading it as scum right now, I don't know who is scum so I won't vote..."

This is scummy.

##Unvote

##Vote: Green Poet

I agree that that would normally be scummy, but it didn't bother me at the time due to the lack of content. Her vote on you was really bad, though. Considering it was ED1, I wouldn't be THAT bothered by a less than stellar vote on myself unless it was oozing with scum vibes.

Also not a fan of BBM either. Calling GP scummy when the game has barely left RVS and basically copying Euk's reasoning doesn't really sit well with me.

How did BBM copy Euklyd's reasoning? You complain about how Euklyd simplified GP's actions and that's why he's scummy, so why is BBM providing a more detailed case scummy in your eyes?

"There wasn't enough content to base a vote on" - so you're going to vote euklyd based on... his single post?

"If you just got around to reading this game [...] Right now, you're scum trying to contribute by relying on a false tell." - pretty bold assertion coming from someone too hesitant to vote over multiple posts of discussion wrt FFM

This is actually a really good point. I find it weird how GP was hesitant to vote FFM due to not having posted much but jumps on Euklyd for making a bad vote FHPOV; like she talks about how the vote is bad but not how it's scummy? I wouldn't be bothered by this at all if she hadn't voted Euklyd for it.

- Refa's vote on FFM feels easy, and I'm not sure how/why he (FFM) is considered "overzealous scum" for his claim/remarks.

Also, the timing of said vote did feel a bit overeager (literally posted 2 minutes after FFM's post/remark?), which is where I believe Shinori's argument stood.

I voted him right after I had made an RVS vote. It would've been easy to have left my RVS vote and done nothing to progress the game forwards. The fact that I didn't shouldn't be considered scummy, even if it wasn't a strong vote. His bad play is a null tell in and of itself (people have already stated why town could do it), it's his reactions and responses that made me scumread him.

I feel the FFM situation got blown out of proportion. I have no idea what would possess someone to claim so early, and I feel, whilst it was bad, Refa's vote was taken a little too seriously. I agree with Cam that Poly in particular seems rather hardline about things, Shinori not quite as much so. Refa's thing was the scummiest thing that had happened for a fair while, but in the grand scheme of things, it's pretty eh.

##Vote: Poly

The vote pressure seemed a little weird, as did the pseudo-defense of FFM. Has your opinion changed on Refa after his recent posts?

Can you explain why it was so scummy? And if you were bothered by me so much, then why are you voting Poly who was also upset by me? I wouldn't necessarily call this scummy, but it's just wierd play overall. Please explain kthnx.

##Vote: Camtech

He's guilty of the same waffly read on FFM that GP had, except he's avoiding more discussion. Its right there in #49. Those questions he pots tell me nothing about what he thinks of the rest of the players in the game.

Or do they?

You say you have no reads or nothing of worth but you vote Poly anyway because ??? Is aggression a scumtell according to you, Cam? Also I feel like you've asked more questions/ answered more GP quotes which tells me you have a better read on GP than Poly. So why the Poly vote?

Honestly, I wasn't bothered by Cam's actual play. Yeah, it doesn't tell what he thinks of the rest of the game, but I do get the impression that his questions have a purpose in helping with that and don't come across as scum making a weak effort to look townie? On the other hand, I don't even get his Poly vote. Like I legit thought his vote was on GP, but apparently it's still on Poly for what I'd consider to be a weaker reason? Cam, can you explain why Poly's more likely to be scum than GP?

Anyways, with that being said:

##Unvote

After his ED1, FFM's posts have improved a lot must be getting coached. In all seriousness though, the lack of scumvibes I'm getting from them (and I do feel like FFM would be more obvious by nature of not having rolled scum that much) makes me reconsider my early suspicion.

The people I'm bothered the most by at the moment are GP and Cam, but I need to read Page 5 (spoilers- I haven't read Page 5 because this post was long enough as it is) before I put down a vote on either of them. Leaning more towards GP ATM because some of Cam's actions are giving me town vibes. Also I believe her vote is on someone with like one post, which is all kinds of lazy. GP, who else is scum? To be fair, Junko and FFM also have the same issue, but I feel like they're pursuing other cases so it's not bothering me as much (still kind of bad play though). Poly is a weaker suspicion because he kind of just disappeared, but he does that as town too so meh. It'd be great if he stopped doing that. ;_;

[Green Poet]

The people I'm bothered the most by at the moment are GP and Cam, but I need to read Page 5 (spoilers- I haven't read Page 5 because this post was long enough as it is) before I put down a vote on either of them. Leaning more towards GP ATM because some of Cam's actions are giving me town vibes. Also I believe her vote is on someone with like one post, which is all kinds of lazy. GP, who else is scum? To be fair, Junko and FFM also have the same issue, but I feel like they're pursuing other cases so it's not bothering me as much (still kind of bad play though). Poly is a weaker suspicion because he kind of just disappeared, but he does that as town too so meh. It'd be great if he stopped doing that. ;_;

-Yes, thanks >.<

-I don't have good scumreads on anyone other than Euklyd and BBM, though I'd note that Shin is worth keeping an eye on only by virtue of not having posted very much.

Cam and Eury are null to me; it's difficult to parse between any objective scum intent they may have in their posts, and their cases on me that I don't like because of my bias. Their posts and many questions do very clearly look for scum, at least.

Marth and Shinori read solidly town. I disagree with some of the points Poly has raised but I don't think it says much about his alignment.

[Bluedoom]

next

does poly not count as a priority

please don't tell me that you find it impossible for me to have a strong read on someone that isn't a scumread (hint: it rhymes with "sound")

1. ok, missed that

2. Poly does not count as a priority if you first go "looks like chainsaw" and then say you have no reads like in #62. Unless you're saying he's your only scumread, in which case it IS a priority, it just feels weak.

3. Your interactions with GP do not look you're reading her as ANYTHING other than scum. Things like this(from #91):

"what i don't like is that you can somehow get enough of a read on euklyd out of one post in which he literally only talks about you (if he mentioned anyone else it clearly wasn't enough to make an impression on me) to conclude that he's scum right after making a hard defense of yourself"

Suggest that you DO in fact scum read her. It looks like you have a lot more to say about GP than Poly, so I think your current vote is a contradiction.

[charlie_]

Votals 1.2

Euklyd (3): Green Poet, Junko, FFM

Green Poet (3): BBM, Euklyd, Eurykins

Polydeuces (2): Camtech, Shin

Refa (1): Polydeuces

Junko (1): Shinori

Camtech (1): Bluedoom

Not Voting (1): Refa

With 12 alive, it takes 4 to lynch and 8 to hammer. You have 59 hours left in the day.

Edited May 20, 2014 by SB.

[euklyd]

fuck finals I'm exhausted. I'll hopefully be sleeping after this.

[wall]

- Euklyd's vote in itself seemed reasonable/justified (based on GP's gameplay/posts thus far), but what bothers me about it is how the post itself felt; it felt like he was skimming across the surface of the water and not really giving any in-depth reason/post info to fully validate the vote. If someone seems scummy to you, I'd expect to see more than a simple one-liner with more thoughts/reasons behind it.

[more wall]

I literally voted for GP for one thing (or two, depending on how you're counting) and it could be summed up in a single line; I'm not going to make a wall when I could be much more concise.
GP's reaction isn't making me feel any better about her, btw.

Also I explained why Euklyd was scummy in my vote. His vote felt like he voted green poet because she would be the easiest to target later on. It felt like Euklyd basically skimmed the whole thread and when he saw that GP was under pressure he voted her for not voting. Would have liked him to more elaborate on it at least. He again basically had nothing to say about the other players at all.

What.
She was avoiding giving reads or placing a vote. Do you seriously not see how this is scummy?
wrt underlined: it was literally page two of the thread there's not a lot to say. I mean there was ALSO the whole "I HAVE FINALS" thing but y'know, ~details~

-It puts words in my mouth. Strawman, whichever one would like to call it.
It would be scummy of me to say that FFM is my top scumread and not vote him, which I did, according to BBM. It should be obvious that I didn't ever say FFM was my top scumread. Scum needs to change/exaggerate a townie's words in order to make a case on them feasible, which is what BBM's doing.

You said that what FFM did was scummy. By extension, you probably think that FFM is also scummy. If he was not, in fact, your top scumread, then your vote would have been somewhere else, or you would at least have said something that might tell other people that you were scumreading other people.

Yes, skimming =/= scum. It's the reliance on a scumtell (hesitancy to vote = scum) when it was ED1 and not applicable, not to mention that I'd already explained why I thought an FFM vote wasn't called for, that I have issues with. He should've read others' content and looked for scum intent instead of choosing to capitalize on some out-of-context tell to entirely justify his vote.

I read the thread, identified the player who was, in my eyes, the scummiest person so far. I voted for them, and explained why. You're assuming that I made a vote on you not because I thought you were scummy, but because I wanted to make an easy out of context vote for no reason...or, y'know, you're scum and you're trying to defend a blatant OMGUS.
There is definitely scum intent in refusing to commit to reads or drop a vote.
I do not wake up, say "HEY I'M GONNA SCUMREAD GREEN POET TODAY," skip everyone else's posts, vote GP, find an excuse for doing so, and then leave.

also attn: people saying “oh Euk's vote was bad because he skimmed the thread and made an easy vote” - see directly above; it's not only directed at GP.

Cam is sorta picking at FFM and GP but still voting Poly. Not liking this; can't really tell what he thinks of them.
It looks like he's saying he has a townread(?) on GP, but from his questioning and earlier posts (including the one he linked to) I would've thought it was a scumread...
Iffy here because of mixed messages and conflicting vibes.
Not really seeing the issue with the Poly vote though; it's not the strongest vote but like I can see where he's coming from. Still don't see why he's not voting GP what with what he's been saying about her.

[euklyd]

Sorry, is this referring to a game mechanic?

No, it's not; it's a terrible joke, referring to GoMC#3. It's also me crumbing dayvig (no not really)

I'm not going to make a wall when I could be much more concise.

- Euklyd 2014

-Yes, thanks >.<

-I don't have good scumreads on anyone other than Euklyd and BBM, though I'd note that Shin is worth keeping an eye on only by virtue of not having posted very much.

Cam and Eury are null to me; it's difficult to parse between any objective scum intent they may have in their posts, and their cases on me that I don't like because of my bias. Their posts and many questions do very clearly look for scum, at least.

Marth and Shinori read solidly town. I disagree with some of the points Poly has raised but I don't think it says much about his alignment.

You're scumreading...two of the three people who are actually casing/voting you. And an inactive. Got it.

Also not a huge fan of Cocomon atm but /bias. I'll think about that more in the morning tomorrow. (Let's be honest here I just finished finals I'm not gonna be awake in the morning.)

[Shin]

Can you explain why it was so scummy? And if you were bothered by me so much, then why are you voting Poly who was also upset by me? I wouldn't necessarily call this scummy, but it's just wierd play overall. Please explain kthnx.

Sure thing, bro. I said it was the scummiest thing that had happened, but not actually particularly scummy in general. You know, like how a bird pooping on your car could be the worst thing to happen in your day if you otherwise had a good day. Your play was kinda weird, although I found that the reaction to it was more inappropriate.

Cam's secrecy is a little perplexing. Whilst there's some sort of logical pattern to it, I'm puzzled as to why "not confusing people" would take priority over solidifying a read. His behaviour is also really avoidant, like, he'll post something in reply which will have some meaning, but in a really roundabout way. Whether this is part of his plan doesn't really matter, it comes across as unhelpful. Euk, it's possible to be voting for one person and to talk about another, although I do agree that it appears that Cam's more suspicious of GP than Poly from his posts.

FFM's use of meta is bad. Surely if scum were to post like scum would, people would realise they're scum? And the "my opinion might change" line doesn't add anything other than "I don't like that, Imma vote you soon". I'd like to think scumbuddies would be facepalming and telling him not to do it. Either this is a cunning plan (hint, it's not), or FFM's kinda new and doesn't know what to say. Poly's defense could be potentially a plan to deep fry Refa, but it's tenuous at best.

##Unvote

##Vote: Junko

I don't like the Euk vote, Junko feels generally uncommitted and happy to follow along with the ones before him. His read on Shinori feels off, I wouldn't say Shinori's vote was lazy at all, and it's quite possible to have reads on multiple people... you can only vote one!

Also GP, why watch THE SHIN? Well, other than the obvious reasons of him being amazing.

TLDR: Junko feels off and sheepy, Cam's weird, Poly should exist.

[BBM]

@GP- your comments early on had no substance because they were just asking questions without taking any sort of stance. Take the entire exchange with Shinori for example. You started off by calling it chainsaw (how is it chainsaw? you never even voted FFM or explicitly called him scum) and then asked a few questions which delved more into game theory than anything else, and at the end you don't actually say what you think about Shinori, until just now. Your exchange with Poly rubbed me the wrong way as well, because you were twisting his question, which asked why you weren't voting FFM despite calling his play bad, into making it seem that he was trying to get you to wagon FFM with him. But then you drop that anyways really quickly.

Your Euklyd vote sucks because of something Cam? pointed out. How is it that Euklyd being hasty to vote you is suspicious when you voted him off just that post? If you can find him suspicious off one post, why can't he find you suspicious off a string of posts? Maybe he simply found your explanation as to why you're not voting inadequate. Your vote also hinges on his reason for voting you (being hesitant) as something that's not actually scummy when in fact it is scummy in a lot of cases. True, not all of them, but ED1 is the best time to vote people on things like this because hey, you don't have anything better to do, and using your vote to pressure someone who did something that's sort of suspicious is better than just idly commenting on the game. You respond to Cam by saying "yeah well it's as strong as an ED1 vote can be". Well if it's like that then what was the big issue with being sure about your vote before making one?

Your recent clarification about why FFM could be town is all good and stuff I agree with- then why spend more than one post early on talking about why he could be scum? And why is this clarification coming on page 5 and not page 2?

More recently, your Marth read is perplexing because he says you're suspicious for pretty much the same reasons that I'm saying you're suspicious- he just doesn't vote you for it. Why am I a good scumread while Marth is solidly town? His Cam case? What's your opinion on Eury for that matter?

I think either Refa or Marth pointed out my biggest problem with Cam- despite all this stuff about other people that for the most part I agree with, his vote is still on Poly... why? Why is Poly the most suspicious? All you say is that he's worse than GP, but why? In fact, just how suspicious is she? He neatly sidesteps the question when somebody else asks him by saying that he doesn't want to introduce secondary scumreads into the equation- then why even talk about other people? And chainsaw defense only works when the person who's being defended is scum, and Cam isn't really sure one way or the other about FFM. The whole point of chainsaw defending is getting heat off your buddy without explicitly tying yourself to them. If you're defending town, you might as well just do it explicitly because it makes them look bad if you flip first. He says aggression is scummy in some contexts, but if the possibility of FFM being town is as much as him being scum, is this one of those contexts?

Junko's posts are urgh. On the one hand, his belief that one shouldn't vote ED1 until solidly having an opinion is as wrong as GP's, but he does seem to be much more consistent between his arguments about his reads. However, what I don't like is that Junko keeps making appeals to his inexperience. His Euklyd vote is all "surely an experienced player like Euklyd knows better" (let's disregard for the moment that I don't think Euklyd has played in many more games than Junko) and instead of stating his reads with confidence, he states them and then immediately classifies them as gut reads.

[Junk]

One thing puzzles me about GP for sure. Why Shin as a scumread? From the looks of your ED1 content even if you thought that poly and FFM were not scummy enough to be scum it makes no sense for you to place them below an inactive? Mind elaborating more on why shin is a scumread? Gtg now though so will answer other questions later sorry al

[CT075]

not gonna bother quotewalling because i have class in 15 minutes

wrt poly > GP i'm townreading gp because i liked her responses to my queries. i may have scumread gp at some point but never really strongly - the reason i've been asking so many questions is specifically to enhance/change that read, which is what happened

wrt "cam's not posting any reads" i'm just gonna cite this and repeat that "what are your reads" isn't something that i can give a helpful answer to; i really haven't attuned my moofia senses enough to know what you guys want to know about me. if you want to know what my opinions are ask me about someone in particular.

[CT075]

just gonna respond bc i'm literally in class now (telling time is tech), will get back to actually reading later

2. Poly does not count as a priority if you first go "looks like chainsaw" and then say you have no reads like in #62. Unless you're saying he's your only scumread, in which case it IS a priority, it just feels weak.

you answered your own question

Suggest that you DO in fact scum read her. It looks like you have a lot more to say about GP than Poly, so I think your current vote is a contradiction.

i do have a lot to say about GP, a lot more than poly. still not seeing the contradiction in finding poly more worth voting

Cam is sorta picking at FFM and GP but still voting Poly. Not liking this; can't really tell what he thinks of them.

I think that GP is likely town. Null on FFM.

all this stuff about other people that for the most part I agree with, his vote is still on Poly... why?

because I came to a different conclusion about GP (assuming that's who you meant?) than you apparently did

Why is Poly the most suspicious? All you say is that he's worse than GP, but why? In fact, just how suspicious is she?

GP is town because I feel that her case is more likely to be town. With the exception of the last part ("yeah it's a weak d1 read") which sucked, the rest of her responses to my questions have demonstrated town intent to me (that's not to say I agree, but bad logic isn't a scumtell).

And chainsaw defense only works when the person who's being defended is scum, and Cam isn't really sure one way or the other about FFM. *SNIP* He says aggression is scummy in some contexts, but if the possibility of FFM being town is as much as him being scum, is this one of those contexts?

At the time, I felt that FFM was more likely to be scum than not. Hence chainsaw defense. Currently I'm not sure because more stuff has happened. If FFM is just as likely to be town than scum, my suspicion still holds, I guess it just can't be called chainsaw it's more like buddying now? semantics.

[MRDRHAWK]

Ugh, sorry, I fell asleep way earlier than I wanted to last night. I think I'm having problems lately...

In any event, I'll read back on what I missed, but it sounds like Cam's thinking I'm chainsaw voting? I'll explain myself better in a bit.

[MRDRHAWK]

This is mostly just answering people, I'm gonna go back and re-read again and formulate a proper reads post later.

One thing that I want to ask poly, you say that gp case on FFM was fine from a standpoint but then you say that GP was dipping into bad play herself. Are you talking about her further play?

I'm talking about the whole "not voting FFM when she actually had a reason to" thing. Granted, GP isn't exactly a mafia vet herself, but she does know her stuff and she should know better than to make such a poor move. That being sad, she has been doing somewhat well in defending herself from what I've seen, but... There's some stuff I've been kinda seeing that makes me want to reread her again.

i'm voting poly with how aggressively he's pursuing people (sf is too slow so i cbf to remember exactly who he was attacking but i think it was refa? correct me if i'm wrong will find examples when sf isn't a chore to browse)

(it was both Refa & GP)

And I went on to pick at both for varying reasons: Refa for his attempt at using meta which barely exists (he's been in, what, three games with Frosty? besides, my opinion on him has changed) and GP for actually giving a good reason, but then making the aforementioned bad move to not vote FFM for it.

- Poly's play so far has seemed... weird? The notion to GP to vote FFM also feels quirky/off (feels like a means to bait a reactionary vote/response from GP?). In addition: "There's plenty of people who come off as passive-aggressive as town or as scum here on SF. This isn't a relevant point." feels like a misrep of what Refa had said, and I also feel that, whenever players are passive-aggressive, there's generally a reason why. So I don't see this logic/statement as being solid either in any regard.

1) I was just trying to correct what I feel was a bad play by GP. If you have a reason to vote someone that isn't OMGUS, you go for it, even if it does feel kinda graspy because at least you can explain it.

2) I'm more aware of how Frosty works mentally, and I know he's more prone to passive-aggressive stuff than a lot of others may think he is.

##Vote: Poly

The vote pressure seemed a little weird, as did the pseudo-defense of FFM. Has your opinion changed on Refa after his recent posts?

Honestly? I don't know what to think of Refa. He just kinda left after I did specifically citing the case on FFM being blown out of proportion (obviously a jab at me, but w/e). On the other hand, his case did come before GP's, and after I re-read it more carefully, it's kind of making me feel better about him and worse about GP? Still kinda iffy on him because I kinda skimmed his wall post, but I'll give a more concrete read on him later.

[CT075]

Refa for his attempt at using meta which barely exists

where

"I don't see FFM being so passive-aggressive as town" is maybe but he went on to clarify that it wasn't a meta read (I also didn't take it that way)

[MRDRHAWK]

where

"I don't see FFM being so passive-aggressive as town" is maybe but he went on to clarify that it wasn't a meta read (I also didn't take it that way)

I did take it that way at the time, though, because I know how FFM works a bit better than Refa does, and I know that FFM's actually quite P.A when something negative occurs to him. Hence, my attacking Refa for it.

[CT075]

i didn't take it as a meta read

[MRDRHAWK]

Then all this discussion is is essentially us differing in how we interpret things. So explain again how this is a chainsaw defense of FFM on my end, again? Because I'm just not seeing it.

[CT075]

because it's a shitty reason to attack refa

[MRDRHAWK]

You're looking at it out of context, Cam. I did it early game, when there was little to go off, because that was the only real opening I saw to make a legitimate point about something. Obviously Refa's left that alone now, and I'm feeling better about him in general.

So why is this still even a thing? The person I attacked is no longer making the point that had me attacking him, which in turn has me feeling better about him. I'm not sure if this is you trying to chainsaw-defend Refa by accusing me of chainsaw-defending FFM, or if this is just a pointless slapfight between two townies that goes nowhere.

[MRDRHAWK]

*ultimately goes nowhere

I'm still a bit tired and stuff

[CT075]

I'm not sure if this is you trying to chainsaw-defend Refa by accusing me of chainsaw-defending FFM

am i scum

is refa scum

keeping my vote here

[MRDRHAWK]

I don't think you're scum as of this point, Cam, I think you've just got your wires crossed and your suspicion in the wrong spot.

I'm leery of Refa still, and I need to actually go through his recent wallpost before I can give a definitive answer to that question, as I said when I responded to Shin asking me the same question a couple pages back.

[CT075]

I don't think you're scum as of this point, Cam

and why is that