Rhythm Tengoku Mafia: The Best + (Game Over)

[j00]

Snike, doesn't tracker just mean he didn't do anything that night? It certainly doesn't mean godfather in any way?

[j00]

I disagree with narrowing the lynches down to two already, because it makes discussion deader than it already is and doesn't give incentive for people to read other people or case anyone on their own. I don't particularly want to lynch either of us.

[Snike]

Snike, doesn't tracker just mean he didn't do anything that night? It certainly doesn't mean godfather in any way?

If he was a mafioso, he would probably be seen on night kill or performing an ability. So either he's clear, gf because why would you risk your scanproof when the rest of the mafia is alive, or ninja.

@Shin: On both wagons were myself, paperblade, j00, and Haze. So unless we're just lynching based off of last wagon, those are the wagon suggested lynch pool j00 mentioned. I'm not really narrowing it down as lynch targets so much as turning that suggestion back on its' head to further support my vote.

I feel like Eli would be an ok alternative if only because I'm starting to waver back on him.

Haze is, excluding those circumstances mentioned above, clear IMO. IE, clear enough for today.

I need to read kaoz. I think he's town from what I can see on his ISO. I disagree with some of his beliefs but I think he's town, atm.

I need to read you, but I am townreading you.

As for quote(who wasn't mentioned), I need to reread him but from what I remember I feel like it's shaky.

[Paperblade]

@Snike: yes

Snike why do you think you're even an option for lynch today? That comment bugs me

[Snike]

@Snike: yes

Snike why do you think you're even an option for lynch today? That comment bugs me

I don't.

Unless you mean I'm bringing it up because like I previously said, the wagon thing from what I understand is the pool of four that were on both mislynches, which would be me, you, Haze, and j00. It ended up according to that suggestion that, since I think you're town and Haze is cleared enough in my eyes, my options for voting along those lines would be myself or j00 by default. And self-voting would require me to talk myself into believing this is a bastard game and my role PM is a lie.

In other words I was saying going by j00's suggestion my vote wouldn't change.

I think lynch options today should be j00/elie at the very least, as well as a solid look into quote.

[Elieson]

Godfather=Ninja suspicions, right?

Given the pile of flips and the weak power town's flipped so far, I'm erring on the side of "Prims didn't put ninjas in this game" @Haze's probable townliness again

Not my bro! Don't worry bro, I'll believe in the me that believes that you're still alive! Denial so strong! I'd like to note that whilst I wasn't technically on the Iris wagon, I wasn't exactly against her lynch. I think the same goes for a few other players too.

My thoughts were that Haze wanted to establish that there are a lot of vanillas in this game, which seems to be the case! I'd have to agree with Paper that Blitz seems a lot less volatile when he's town, which is kinda what's happening in this game. I mean, it doesn't clear him, but combined with his recent content, I'm starting to feel a lot better.

I'm not liking Eli's attempt to discredit Paper's townread. I could understand some degree of scepticism or uncertainty, but it's very much "you're townreading my scumread, you suck". Post #404 was an unusual alternate post followed by a vote that didn't bother me at the time. However, now I've noticed how empty it really is, it's filled mostly with one liners about people that don't really mean much.

##Vote: Eli

He followed up the Blitz case through to today, but it feels a lot like his Manix case, and I'll be interested to see if he drops it when he realises it's unviable.

j00's starting to sink under the radar, her last couple of posts have been more directing votes and small prods. I'm also getting the sense of her being OK to lynch anyone, her votes don't really strike me with much conviction in any particular case. I can't really say any more about Kaoz because of activity, but all my previous points remain.

Eli >> Kaoz >>> j00

Discredit Paperblade's townread: responded to earlier; i was trying to understand paper's thought process more. I'd love for someone to hand me a reason on a silver platter as to why somebody is town/scum, because i'm not that good at it, given my thoughts after current flips I'd say

Paper saying Blitz is less volatile as town: Blitz seems like he's struggling to make himself heard. I can't even cite it now but I remember one of his posts just said "thoughts" like 5 times. Blitz never pursued them; i'd expect town!Blitz to nag the heck out of anybody he queried. he's only done it like twice as far as I can see, since D2 that is.

j00: I dunno, lots of people seem unmemorable in a game where not much is actually happening. If I were to say anybody feels like they're fading into obscurity, I'd kinda hafta say Levibii simply because I had to check the playerlist to make sure that she wasn't dead to recall that she was alive and in game. Kaoz stands out to me in mixed ways because i feel like his posts might encompass far more if he were this active, to compensate for his lack of frequency posts. At the same time, idk he's evidently busy so *shrug*

if there's anything I missed so far, let me know I'll be happy to respond to specifics.

---

@anybody

Can someone tell me what blitz's committed thoughts and pushes were, here and here? These are largely why I'm voting him. Loads of wishy washy buzzwords and because of his lack of followup on virtually every response to his callout for clarification (given he's only responded to Shin and Kaoz since then. Oh and his meta explanation about snike @ j00 but I'm not really counting that).

I'm slightly less comfortable with my scumread on Blitz because of Paper's suggestion to go try reading Shovel Knight mafia and me actually giving it a skim, but I'm not uncomfortable enough with it to unvote Blitz, since I'm actively townreading pretty much everybody else. Well, here's this

• • • Snike (and Haze, if there's some sort of bizarre super buddying going on here and Snike were to turn out to be scum, since let's face it, since Shining Force Sword of Hajya mafia, i've always been a bit concerned about scumbuddy gambits like that, and my suspicions were right in FE12 and hopefully somebody remembers that). damnit this is quite literally a read dependant on snike, since i really don't think haze's play matches that of scum, and his roleclaim doesn't really strike me as scummy, unless *the above scenario

OR

• • • Quote/Kaoz (sorta mixed, due to overall activity and quality that doesn't match what my expectations really were, and [buzzword]unmemorable[/buzzword] play up until now I guess)

AND

• • • Blitz for reasons that yea you all get it by now i'm tunneling him because i'm either a genius or a moron _{and I hope i'm not a moron}

[Prims]

Votals 3.1

Blitz (1) - Elieson

Elieson (1) - Shin

j00 (1) - Snike

Haze (1) - j00

Not Voting (5): Blitz, Haze, Kaoz, Paperblade, Via

You have 50 hours left in the phase. With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

[Paperblade]

Elie what are your opinions on Shin

[Percivalé]

pfff i'm sorry i gotta sub out irl isn't really working out for me right now. i didn'twant to but i don't think there's any way im going to catch u[p sorry prims

[Prims]

kirsche replaces Via.

[Zkirsche]

Yo, I'm reading the day so far:

He's godfather or clear because he was my track target N1

Why are these the only two options again, it seems like a bit of a jump unless I'm missing certain info? Why can't he be scum with a role that doesn't want to visit every night?

Snike is probably town at a glance as he is trying to reason his results out with us and doing a lot of unnecessary stuff like wagon analysis, which is nice scumhunting. Jumping to a lot of conclusions though.

Can someone tell me what blitz's committed thoughts and pushes were,

I can try because I read them:

In the first, he states that we definitely should not no lynch (which is true). He comments on you, stating that he thinks if you thought Manix was scum you would have pushed him more (seems reasonable). He defends Snike, states that he has a townread on Haze. Only real problem with the post is how open he is wrt Iris, as he should have commented on people's cases itself rather than looking at Iris' stuff in a bubble and coming up with not a lot, though he may have talked about it elsewhere as I haven't read his ISO. @Blitz: What do you think of the cases against Iris and the Iris lynch?

In the second, he pushes you more for doing what another mafia member did, which I guess he is interpreting has a global scum read. It does appear pretty weak though, it feels like Blitz thinks reevaluating a read for any reason is scummy because it feels like a very general accusation. The rest of that post is mostly questioning random things and going "what do you think?" to 5 different people. If that was all his post was, I would think you had something, but it does appear genuine that he wants to know more from these people, especially regarding yourself.

Overall these posts seem ok. Why are you suspicious of Snike, is it solely because of paranoia regarding plays? I like the fact that you opened up your reads for discussion as it shows you're not just tunnelling.

PB's Blitz defence is ok too, though I don't really know who he thinks is scum from his posts this day phase. He made a reads post a while back but I don't know how they have evolved much. Are your thoughts on Haze and Elie the same (you implied that you were having second thoughts with Elie) and have you come to any conclusion about Shin?

Overall, I think Snike is town and Blitz looks good but I think I'll need to ISO to get more because the day has been pretty slow so far. I don't think we should lock ourselves to two people quite so early in the day phase. I'll ISO between slow points in the tennis, probably starting with Paper and j00 because j00 apparently is a lynch target today,

[Kaoz]

I fear I won't be any less busy the following days, my apologies. In fact I won't be around at all again on Sunday, but I'll try to get something out tomorrow at least.

@Paperblade

#448: Could you elaborate on this, please? I don't remember.

@Elieson

#419: Regarding #147, looking back I think the point of confusion is that you call Manix a town hero in one quote and then say you're still scum reading him in the other. Was that a misinterpretation? Fair enough on the second bit.

#455: Explain how Haze's claim was an "impulsive townslip." Shin has already argued against this in #458, but I would like to hear your side of the argument and, in case you think you're wrong after all, what you make of that post now.

#481: If I had to take a stab at those posts, I would say that he committed to scum!you and town!Haze. Could you cite which posts you felt he should've followed up on, but didn't? I'm not really getting anything of that sort from a quick skim.

@Snike

There are a lot more possibilities where you wouldn't catch scum with a track than the ones you listed. What's your opinion on Haze's actual play? I don't like how you're dismissing Haze so easily and don't even comment on his posts; reads like you're trying pretty hard to hold on to your j00 vote.

So, if we're lynching from the wagons today I think I'd go for Haze. Paperblade is bleeding town and I still feel good about j00 from the end of D1. This leaves me with Snike and Haze and I feel the former's posts are more solid overall. I also feel Snike should be looked at harder if Haze is scum because of what I said above though.

##Vote: Haze

[Elieson]

In the first, he states that we definitely should not no lynch (which is true). He comments on you, stating that he thinks if you thought Manix was scum you would have pushed him more (seems reasonable). He defends Snike, states that he has a townread on Haze. Only real problem with the post is how open he is wrt Iris, as he should have commented on people's cases itself rather than looking at Iris' stuff in a bubble and coming up with not a lot, though he may have talked about it elsewhere as I haven't read his ISO. @Blitz: What do you think of the cases against Iris and the Iris lynch?

In the second, he pushes you more for doing what another mafia member did, which I guess he is interpreting has a global scum read. It does appear pretty weak though, it feels like Blitz thinks reevaluating a read for any reason is scummy because it feels like a very general accusation. The rest of that post is mostly questioning random things and going "what do you think?" to 5 different people. If that was all his post was, I would think you had something, but it does appear genuine that he wants to know more from these people, especially regarding yourself.

Overall these posts seem ok. Why are you suspicious of Snike, is it solely because of paranoia regarding plays? I like the fact that you opened up your reads for discussion as it shows you're not just tunnelling.

I can't really agree with this, since in this game, there's no known mafia members to compare me and my play to. The rest, I can bite my tongue and agree to disagree on.

It's my fearmongering paranoia that makes me worry about Snike (and Haze) more than anything else.

I fear I won't be any less busy the following days, my apologies. In fact I won't be around at all again on Sunday, but I'll try to get something out tomorrow at least.

@Elieson

#419: Regarding #147, looking back I think the point of confusion is that you call Manix a town hero in one quote and then say you're still scum reading him in the other. Was that a misinterpretation? Fair enough on the second bit.

#455: Explain how Haze's claim was an "impulsive townslip." Shin has already argued against this in #458, but I would like to hear your side of the argument and, in case you think you're wrong after all, what you make of that post now.

#481: If I had to take a stab at those posts, I would say that he committed to scum!you and town!Haze. Could you cite which posts you felt he should've followed up on, but didn't? I'm not really getting anything of that sort from a quick skim.

how dare you do things that aren't mafia

@419: I was more or less fooling around in the post where I called him the town hero that we didn't deserve (or whatever I said in that post)

@455: He just randomly claimed it without provocation, when vanillas were already being discussed. As scum, I assume he'd be as cautious as possible with throwing a fakeclaim out there since it would naturally draw a lot of negative flak from other players to unnecessarily throw information out there for town to futz around with, and plenty of people haven't claimed thus far (I'm pretty sure Snike hasn't claimed anything else except for what he did with Refa's track thing which overwrites his primary whatever-it-is role anyway). I don't see scum intent in it, and given the size of his post and the promise for "more later", it seems to me like he was just spurting out a quick thought rather than posting a vanilla claim as some calculated attempt at confusion generation.

If Haze were to flip as town!something that isn't vanilla, I wouldn't be too shocked

If Haze were to flip as mafia!vanilla, I'd slap myself in the back of the head so you don't have to, and go look for people that generally passed up discussion about Haze (rather than look for people who were attacking/or/defending him)

If Haze were to flip as mafia!something else, I'd immediately consider Snike as a lynchworthy target, but honestly I wouldn't know how to press it

@481: Anything that he said "thoughts" to, primarily:

• His unpursued query to Refa regarding re-evaluation that well, could've easily been discussed out in the open now that refa's unable to answer it himself
• Hell, any discussion that he had tried to pull from Refa (which is about 1/3 of it) I expected Blitz to follow up with theories now that refa's flipped town
• His request for clarity from Snike on a read about himself, following a Dormio lynch (Snike, having not responded to Blitz, but he did to Refa, should've struck a nerve, and now that I'm re-reading it, concerns me more).
  • In fact, Blitz made another post before Snike could reply to his first query, and didn't even call attention to Snike's "bbl" response. He was happy to meta Snike though
• Shin responded to Blitz's point about a No Lynch with some wishy washy himhaw'ing (not really scummy IMO) and left an open-ended statement [question] towards the end of his reply, which Blitz clearly should've jumped back on
  • actually, I think i'm having some Levibii gut thoughts here

---

@Paperblade; you asked my thoughts on Shin. I'd stick him largely in the nullest possible position of nullreads (a Forced null), because I haven't seen content from him that strikes me as overly scummy and i haven't seen content that strikes me as overly townie either, just kind of a mix of the two

[Elieson]

Also @Kaoz

---

First big blitz post

Also, as I had sort of implied earlier, Elie wouldn't stick to target that takes him nowhere, but, after that post, he was trying to get away from said target and therefore the previous theory no longer applies.

Kaoz, on 02 Jul 2015 - 05:05 AM, said:

Leaning town on Elieson myself, the way he stuck to and then backed off Manix reads positive to me, wouldn't want to lynch him.

why do you think it was a townish thing (for Elie) to back off of Manix that way? (the way I see it, scum would have more reason to do that than town)

Kaoz, on 04 Jul 2015 - 3:55 PM, said:

So, let's see. I don't think either vanilla claim is meaningful since it says in the OP that there's a "non-zero number" of vanillas in this game and vanilla is a fair fake claim for a power role too, especially D1 (it gets riskier later on). I don't think the self-vote/offer is inherently meaningful either, it's basically AtE. I'll give Elieson some credit for actually voting himself when it was just before deadline though and because he apparently didn't know what was going on. Does anyone think Elieson lied about coming back so late though?

I think Elie lying is a possibility and I don't like how Elie pretty much voted himself the same moment Shin unvoted, meaning, he only brought himself back to his original position. It might actually be a coincidence, but, it is possible Shin and Elie had planned it.

Red 1- Meta statement that he retracts

Green 1- Fair statement

I can't really comment on the last part; it's interpretation of Day 1 play regarding two (at the time, currently) living players, that's a heavy associative read that doesn't offer much in terms of clarity towards a read on me, but rather, a read on Shin+Me.

---

Blitz's 2nd big post

I normally do not think Elie is bad at casing people D1, it is just that I do not agree with his cases most of the times (because weird town meta from most of the guys he has cased so far) and he almost always sticks to them as town and finds a reason to stick to them as well, which also involves crazy reaction tests.

-his post made me think he thought Manix was town though (and it felt like back pedaling)
-town Elie IMO would have found a some method to pull a scumtest, I am pretty sure.
-he didn't say this in his original case, but, I guess I can accept it
-?? (I have nothing to say here)

I still think Elie would have tried a different approach if he thought Manix was actually scum rather than letting Manix off entirely. The vote switch could have taken place anytime, but, he wouldn't have not asked something or gotten Manix to do something if he was scumreading Manix

Red highlights parts that I don't think Blitz really meant anything definitive behind

Green highlights parts that he did

Red 1- Meta

Green 2- Meta

Red 3/4 - Meaningless

Green 3 - Meta

Green 1 I can't really say anything against

Shin, on 06 Jul 2015 - 01:46 AM, said:

Eli looks like he gives up his read, initially because he alludes to a vague townread on Manix, but later on it comes across as being that he couldn't pursue the case because he was getting flak for it.

Shin actually said it better than I did.

I feel like this is just rehashed reasoning and not expanded on, which backs to Green 3 (found above), which is a meta case

---

Unless I'm missing something here

[Zkirsche]

j00:

She seems to drop scumreads very easily, it doesn't look like she's very invested in them. She drops Manix very quickly, which is understandable because it was RVS, but then you sit on Elie all day. In #136 you say I'd rather him than me but weren' you scumreading him anyway? Why did you have to justify that like that? Shorlty afterwards, Elie makes one content post and apparently the content and the tone of that one post is enough for him to not be scum, could you explain why that is? You spent a lot of time complaining about the Dormio wagon, saying it was a bad turbowagon and an "easy lynch" when the only follow up from that is a criticism of Snike's switch from his primary to his secondary read, which isn't even that big of a deal. You spend a lot of time asking people about their thoughts on the Dormio wagon without going in depth into your own.

You didn't comment much on Iris either, she just seems to magically become your secondary scumread after you make one or two comments on her, which mostly boils down to "not doing enough". Now she's voting Haze for "not doing enough" by not making enough cases, when she herself admits a lot of people haven't made great cases and that prodding people is legit. This may read different in context, but I definitely want some answers on her regarding the Dormio wagon - do you have anything else to say regarding Snike - and what part of Elie's one content post was enough to sway her.

##Vote: j00

Murray and the King are coming up so don't expect anything for a few hours.

[Paperblade]

@kaoz: Elieson was trying to case townies and got mad in scumchat that people thought his cases were bad, which they kind of were because he basically ignored context to push a bad case. It stood out to me because it made sense in context with his play in previous games (such as his Marth push in late CYOR). I feel like scumlieson is more likely to jump around and try to paint everything as negative, which is why this Blitz case bothers me so much.

##Vote: Elieson

kirsche's j00 case is solid. I have mixed feelings on j00, since I do agree that she seems happy to vote everyone but I feel like in her posts she seems genuinely frustrated by the inactivity. Maybe I am giving that too much town credit

My reads list from before still mostly holds. I am not terribly interested in lynching Blitz, Kaoz, kirsche, or Snike, which leaves Haze, j00, Shin, Elieson. I believe that it's reasonably likely the second list has 3 scum, or at least 2 of them.

A j00/Elieson scumteam seems kind of weird to me but I'd need to double check their interactions

[Elieson]

@kaoz: Elieson was trying to case townies and got mad in scumchat that people thought his cases were bad, which they kind of were because he basically ignored context to push a bad case. It stood out to me because it made sense in context with his play in previous games (such as his Marth push in late CYOR). I feel like scumlieson is more likely to jump around and try to paint everything as negative, which is why this Blitz case bothers me so much.

wat?

My marth push in CYOR was "I need to push the only other possible lynch because everybody else is confirmed town at this point and it's LYLO. Even if I were scum, I wouldn't have that kind of pressure to be dealing with right now

---

I can wagon that j00 thoughts, if only because I don't think I even noticed j00's dismissal of Iris overall

[Paperblade]

I'm talking about SFMM4 there not CYOR

in SFMM4 you were mad in scumchat

[Elieson]

oh

i gotta look back at that i don't even remember who i was scum with in sfmm4

[Prims]

Votals 3.2

Elieson (2) - Shin, Paperblade

Haze (2) - j00, Kaoz

j00 (2) - Snike, kirsche

Blitz (1) - Elieson

Not Voting (2): Blitz, Haze

You have 30 hours left in the phase. With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Haze and Blitz have been prodded.

[Zkirsche]

I'd immediately consider Snike as a lynchworthy target

Why? What makes Snike mafia over town!tracker who's jumping to the wrong conclusions?

I can't really agree with this, since in this game, there's no known mafia members to compare me and my play to.

He's not comparing you to other mafia in this game, he's comparing you to mafia in previous games. He's used how they acted to try to form a global scumtell which he thinks you played into. I don't agree with the logic but I don't think it's indicative of alignment.

Ok I quickly ISO'd Paper because I'm townreading him based on these last few posts, he seems pretty cool other than a lack of conviction. His meta is smart and well justified, though I'm a little hesitant to agree completely on his Elie stuff. Elie did claim vanilla D1 and is known for tunneling. The only unreasonable dirt he's really throwing around is on Snike and Haze which can easily come from paranoid townie, which I imagine Elie to be. I'll have to read more in depth but I'm out of time right now. PB's posts genuinely read of someone interested in lynching mafia.

I'm not here for tomorrow so this might be all unless I get up super early (which I might do so no slacking j00). Haze and Elie look like they're next, but Kaoz, is the only reason you're voting Haze because the other 3 look better? What makes him look scummy? Do you have any scumreads?

[j00]

j00:

She seems to drop scumreads very easily, it doesn't look like she's very invested in them. She drops Manix very quickly, which is understandable because it was RVS, but then you sit on Elie all day. In #136 you say I'd rather him than me but weren' you scumreading him anyway? Why did you have to justify that like that? Shorlty afterwards, Elie makes one content post and apparently the content and the tone of that one post is enough for him to not be scum, could you explain why that is? You spent a lot of time complaining about the Dormio wagon, saying it was a bad turbowagon and an "easy lynch" when the only follow up from that is a criticism of Snike's switch from his primary to his secondary read, which isn't even that big of a deal. You spend a lot of time asking people about their thoughts on the Dormio wagon without going in depth into your own.

You didn't comment much on Iris either, she just seems to magically become your secondary scumread after you make one or two comments on her, which mostly boils down to "not doing enough". Now she's voting Haze for "not doing enough" by not making enough cases, when she herself admits a lot of people haven't made great cases and that prodding people is legit. This may read different in context, but I definitely want some answers on her regarding the Dormio wagon - do you have anything else to say regarding Snike - and what part of Elie's one content post was enough to sway her.

By the end of D1, I said I wasn't feeling the Elieson lynch due to his claim and late posts, which felt town to me. My issue with Iris wasn't "not doing enough", it was "weakly tunneling Elie all the time".

Elie and Snike are the only votes I've mainly dropped my scumread on, Iris died and I'm still suspicious about Haze and Shin.

My vote on Haze isn't not so much "not great cases" as the cases he had were Dormio, Iris and me. Iris was a late case and a late vote on a major wagon that seemed reactionary, and his case on me isn't solid because he's using early D1 and vanilla to justify it. Unlike Snike's case on me, and say yours, it doesn't feel like there's effort behind it since I don't get the impression that he's scumhunting from his posts. I get a slightly better vibe from Shin since he's obviously trying to contribute with something, but his scumhunting doesn't feel genuine either.

I also disagree with wagon analysis being unnecessary, going to look more indepth about Iris, but regarding Dormio the problem is that it was a turbo wagon and most were lynching him because they didn't want to lynch me or Elie. I talked about my reads on people on that wagon in this post.

[j00]

also probably not a point in my favor but one reason I seem to change votes all the time is that I've been on all the wagon lynches and everyone who's died has either been a scumread or a vote of mine at some point :(

[Shin]

also probably not a point in my favor but one reason I seem to change votes all the time is that I've been on all the wagon lynches and everyone who's died has either been a scumread or a vote of mine at some point :(

I don't think that's necessarily a point directly against you, there was a lot of consolidation on D1 and it's not like you suddenly voted for your town reads. Paper's discussion with Eli doesn't really look like it's going anywhere, I'm not getting any sort of tells from it but it's something that just caught my eye.

j00, can I ask how my scumhunting isn't genuine? There's not much to go by so I'm doing my best to make sense of the material present. I've just finished working six days in a row so I'm a little tired, kirsche's posts are too long for my poor noggin to process right now.

[Elieson]

Why? What makes Snike mafia over town!tracker who's jumping to the wrong conclusions?

He's not comparing you to other mafia in this game, he's comparing you to mafia in previous games. He's used how they acted to try to form a global scumtell which he thinks you played into. I don't agree with the logic but I don't think it's indicative of alignment.

The dropped crumb of N V doesn't quite make sense when he says he targetted Haze. Assuming Snike had died, we'd have Refa still alive in theory who would have to somehow confirm that N V could be related to the role that he forced Snike to take, and

I'd really like to vote you but there hasn't really been much discussion on what I mentioned so I'm going to wait for that (confirm/deny if I am seeing things) + haze's explanation because if his blue remark means what I think it means, we're going to be talking vanillas soon. For now,

there's like no motivation for Snike to target Haze outside of testing his Vanilla claim (which three existed by that time) and Snike hadn't said anything about haze all game, up until that single mention of him back in D2.

Snike, why did you track Haze anyway?

Also yea i didn't get it on the first read but i understand it now