Let's see what we can retrieve

[Vykan12]

Let's try something different and determine which debates have been saved/butchered.

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Retrieved debates

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Joshybear (Ike) vs Vykan (Ulki)

Mekkah (Syrene) vs Vykan (Lyon), [conditional]

Thany (Reikken) vs Zealot (A2ZOMG)

A2ZOMG (Lot) vs. Colonel M (Oujay)

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Lost debates

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Mekkah (Janaff) vs Red Fox of Fire (Volug) *this has been partially retrieved so far

Vykan12 (Ranulf) vs Smashfanatic (Mordecai)

Vykan (Shanan) vs B2BD (Aless)

Kirsche (Tormod) vs Cyntia (Haar)

Joshybear (Zihark) vs Kirsche (Mia)

Tino (Artur) vs Red Fox of Fire (Lute)

Roxas (Pent) vs Mudkipz (Canas)

Colonel M (Roger) vs. B2BD (Caesar)

Colonel M (Tiki) vs. Mekkah (Etzel)

Colonel M (Catria) vs. B2BD (Dolph)

Colonel M (Franz) vs. Camtech (Forde)

Colonel M (Shinon) vs. Kirsche (Gatrie)

Vykan (Fiona) vs Kirsche (Lyre)

Mekkah (Isadora) vs Camtech (Canas)

Smashfanatic (Edward) vs Paperblade (Leonardo)

Quite a few others still unaccounted for.

===================

Some match-ups I remember

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Jill vs Elincia

Volke vs Stefan

Lucia vs Volke

Setgar vs someone

Edited June 14, 2009 by Vykan12

[Mekkah]

Could you post that Syrene vs Lyon post in the thread I made for it? I tried quoting your post but that leaves all your quoting out, which isn't a very good idea. I already wrote my response to it the day SF went down.

[Zanarkin]

tha mordy v ranulf was a really good one shame its lost

[Zkirsche]

I have all my debates on word.

Should I create new threads for them? They're not finished yet and they might take a while...

I'm talking about Me vs Tino and Me Vs Cynthia (Short debate)

[-Cynthia-]

I actually don't really want to do our debate anymore since the enemy stats got wiped and I don't feel like hunting for them.

[Zkirsche]

I actually don't really want to do our debate anymore since the enemy stats got wiped and I don't feel like hunting for them.

They're only on page 13 of the tier list and any part 4 ones can just be collected of FEP (Normal mode though).

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?...0600&st=240

http://forums.feplanet.net/index.php?showtopic=25479

Edited June 10, 2009 by kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

Oh, well then I guess it's all right, though we're missing a few chapters. I'll have to do my whole response again though, since the forum ate it.

[Roxas]

I lost my debate with Mudkipz... which I guess is alright since I lost, and he probably won't be bothered with making a new acc anyway. XD

[Zkirsche]

Oh, well then I guess it's all right, though we're missing a few chapters. I'll have to do my whole response again though, since the forum ate it.

Try saving it in word. I've done that for all of my debates.

Tino, have you got your post saved in word? Otherwise my counter is the only referance to it.

[Florete]

Hurrah! I still have all the RD HM stats saved in a Word document! I'll get them up soon.

I also have my responses for Janaff vs. Volug saved.

Edited June 10, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Tino]

Try saving it in word. I've done that for all of my debates.

Tino, have you got your post saved in word? Otherwise my counter is the only referance to it.

I'm afraid I haven't...

I only have some very old debate posts saved.

But if you could re-post your opener and send your second post to me via a PM or something I'll try to get my first post together as well as possible.

Also, while we're at it, we could redo our Kieran vs. Oscar debate and don't focus so much on Boyd vs. Oscar this time...

[Mekkah]

Hurrah! I still have all the RD HM stats saved in a Word document! I'll get them up soon.

you're the best

sort of

I also have my responses for Janaff vs. Volug saved.

That's useful if we're making some kind of debate archive. May even qualify for a hall of fame of sorts, if my last response isn't considered too lazy.

The Mordecai vs Ranulf debate though... :(

[Jaybee]

I still have the reply to my debate against Vykan saved, though it hasn't been completed yet. I'll start a new thread and post Vykan's counter. I also lost the debate on Mia vs Zihark:(

Who the heck hacked the site anyway?

Edited June 11, 2009 by Joshybear25

[Colonel M]

Then there's the 3rd long and tedious post that I had in kirsche's debate with Shinon vs. Gatrie. Dunno if this is completed either but...

WARNING! THIS MIGHT TAKE TWO POSTS! STAND BY!

*Sigh*. I hate when I've typed something up, only for it to be deleted. Note that I'm going to merge some arguments if it has roughly the same answer.

It needs highlighting. As I said, it’s a massive win for Shinon and Gatrie never wins anything quite as much as this (Durability, Shinon has great avo, and when it comes down to basic offence (strength), Gatrie never wins by huge amounts)

It needs highligting? I don't think so. When he has the Killer Bow, I'll admit the critical is something that is noticable. But still, we're talking about base Shinon with 10%+14% from base Skill, which amounts to 24%. Most units have around 13 Dodge (well, Halberdiers anyway), which still puts Shinon's critical rate to about... 1 in 10 chances, which is increased slightly when he doubles. You cannot tell me that Shinon is going crazy crazy with anything not named the Killer Bow.

When did I say that Shinon crits all of the time? I said Gatrie dealt more damage to the general 37% of the time, which is the chance that Shinon doesn’t crit in the two attacks that he has (61/100 * 61/100 = 37/100, or 37% chance to not crit ). This means that Shinon crits more than not, meaning Shinon deals more damage than Gatrie most of the time.

On Halberdiers, Gatrie has a 37% chance of doing more damage. However, there's also Swordmasters, Snipers, Sages, and Generals. There's more than just Halberdiers. Now I completely understand by the logic of chances of Critting an enemy; however, there are different situations.

Sages aren't liked by anyone because no matter what you're taking damage. Shinon has the slight upper hand because he ORKOes, but Gatrie can at least counter them with a Hand Axe. Shinon will need his Crossbow, which isn't happening at the beginning at the very least. Snipers are something Shinon can take on, but would rather avoid. Despite his good Avoid, it's best to minimalize the amount of damage taken, so it's probably better for someone such as Gatrie to take them on close-up. Yeah, Shinon can take them up with a Crossbow at least, but it's better to preserve that item because it is possible he will not get another for a while. Swordmasters aren't being doubled by either of them, so it's possible Gatrie will produce more damage against these, barring a Critical hit. For Generals, it's actually better for Gatrie to take these on than Shinon. Although Shinon has a possibility to 2RKO them, it's better to whip out a Steel Bow than the Killer Bow? Why? Remember that the Killer Bow has 25 uses, which is one of the "few" reasons Shinon has a slightly better lead on Gatrie, offensively. In order to preserve this, we have to keep it as long as possible. Using on the Generals isn't a good idea in the first place. Yes, he can do 12 damage in one-round, but you're also at risk of using up 3-5 uses of that bow. Yeah, just on one General. Gatrie is always guaranteed 3 uses with the possibility of less pending on a critical (quit denying that he cannot get the Killer Axe, which I'll explain why later).

In short, neither really like taking Sages, though Shinon at least has ORKO potential on his plate. With Snipers, Shinon can only approach this "safely" by fighting up-close, which isn't a good idea since he should really save that Crossbow for Enemy Phase, so Gatrie's hand is a bit better here. For Swordmasters, it comes down to Crit versus higher power. I've argued that Gatrie is probably better at taking Generals because it's possible Shinon is going to waste his 25 Killer Bows on 5-9 Generals as is, and he should really stick to the Steel Bow on the first round. Halberdiers, I'll give Shinon the win because he doubles, isn't wasting a whole lot of the Killer Bow, and at least has the Critical hits on his side. You still can't write off that the critical is a massive win, because it's arguable that these guys are pretty close offensively and are better against some enemies than others.

It's okay to glance at the small things; however, you should always stare at the bigger picture.

1.5 levels in those 2 chapters seem fair in comparison to Gatrie’s actual combat prowess. Lol at never one-rounding. He only weakens enemies in 3-1 so that units like Soren and Boyd can finish them off. Before you say that Oscar can weaken before Gatrie finishes them off , Oscar isn’t the one guarding the chokehole, Gatrie is. Meaning that after the enemy phrase, a unit is left weakened in front of Gatrie. If Gatrie kills that unit, Boyd/Soren is forced in front of Gatrie and left defending the chokehole, which they can’t do very well. Gatrie does get a level this chapter, though, I will admit.

The halberdier I got my dodge off from has 13 dodge. Shinon has also gained a level by this point (from the bexp at the base), giving him 29 skl. 29/2 = 14.5 which is rounded to 15. 15 + 10 = 25 crit with a crossbow. 25 - 13 = 12 crit against the halberdier with a crossbow. The chance that Shinon doesn’t crit is 88/100 * 88/100 = 77/100 = 77%. 100% - 77% = 23%. This means that Shinon’s chance to crit is 23% against said halberdier.

Gatrie can be equally a weakener as a finisher. Even if he's just guarding the chokehole, he's helping the team be more efficient. It allows someone like Soren (or Boyd) to leech a kill when needed, and the rest to spread out and finish the chapter faster.

Aah, the good old “exp hogging” argument. Imagine this scenario:

Gatrie, Ike and Titania are the only 3 units capable of killing a certain unit, if Ike kills that unit, he gets 20 exp. If Gatrie kills that unit, Ike gets 0 exp. If Titania kills that unit, Ike gets 0 exp. Tell me: What’s the difference? If Gatrie kills a unit then the rest of the team get the same amount of exp as when Titania kills a unit.

Sure, Titania grows slower, but how is that a negative for Titania? Sure, you could respond saying that the team grows slower, but the team grows at the same rate when Gatrie kills the unit - they all get 0 exp. In the end, it’s just finding an excuse to give Gatrie exp over Titania, which is called favouritism.

Also, if you promote Gatrie early he’ll be a higher level than Titania (15/1 gives the same exp as 20/1), so with your logic, Gatrie shouldn’t be used. Thus Shinon is automatically better than him until Shinon promotes. See the flaws with your logic?

There is no flaw with my logic. If Titania only nabs 1 Exp from a kill while Ike / Gatrie have potential to nab 20 Exp, that alone is being an Exp hog. If Ike swipes the kill but Gatrie and Titania do not, or Gatrie swipes the kill but Ike and Titania do not, then there is no Exp hogging at all. It's not called favouritism because by letting Titania leech a kill, you just lost 20 potential Exp that Ike could've gotten, or Gatrie, or anyone for that matter. That is, in no way, favouritism.

It isn't as much of a negative for her. It's just that she should act like a pseudo-Jeigan for the first couple chapters by allowing other units (Soren, Ike, etc) to get kills while she could weaken out some foes or simply attack those that would endanger someone else. She can get kills later on, but swiping them right now would be a bad idea.

And if Gatrie promotes early... we already know he's growing as fast as a 20/1 Titania, what is the point of this? Shinon is gaining less Exp than Gatrie early on because Level 10 is gaining more Exp than Level 13: it's simple logic. Him promoting early isn't a hinderance because Gatrie has good stats to accomodate it. Shinon, on the other hand, does not.

As I’ve shown, Titania doubles a lot in 3-2. Oscar might have gained a level due to having a good prologue and a good chapter 1, compared to Gatrie’s good chapter 1. With a level up, his AS is the same as Titania’s and thus he doubles over half of the chapter too. Nephenee with an Iron great lance has 22AS, which is enough to double 45 units, which is 90% of the enemies on this chapter. Then there’s Mia, who could use a forge to her advantage etc. Face it, There are tonnes of units that can double by this point.

I admit that Titania is doing good, but we don't want to spam her too early. Anyway, Oscar. Wait, he gets +1 Spd in one Level up? Wow. His AS becomes 22, not 21. And with a 60% Speed growth. Now who, ironically, has the same Spd growth? Would that be... Gatrie? If he gains a level and has a good chance of his Speed being rounded up, then I guess Gatrie can double as much as Oscar (possibly) and Titania. Way to go with rounding logic.

Here's what's sad: Nephenee needs an Iron Greatlance just to prevent herself from being weighed down. Oops. And Mia using a forge to her advantage? Let's talk about how that is a hinderance to our Gold, favouritism, and sad because she needs a forge to keep up with the rest of the team. Might as well say there's a Speedwing that Gatrie has a possibility of obtaining, automatically obtain 22 AS, and call it a day with an earlier promo.

Shinon doubles units that carry crossbows, so his chance to disarm is about 28% actually. He will disarm eventually, and at that point, he gets a crossbow. Even if this weren’t happening, it could last until 3-5. “But that leaves 3-7 without an enemy phrase” remember that I said that 3-7 to 3-11 are where Shinon loses overall. So emphasising that Gatrie wins is pointless.

Emphasize that Gatrie wins is pointless? How about so significant it isn't funny? And that the sad fact is you won't admit Shinon doesn't even have such a great lead over him. And Shinon may have a 28% chance to disarm the Crossbow user, but there's a total of 1 at 3-4. And since you hype up his critical so much, what happens if Shinon accidentally crits that Warrior? Sorry Shinon, no Crossbow for you.

No-one else wants the killer bow, unless you’re stupid and use Rofl.

---

That 21 AS is enough to double the sages and most of the generals. Which increases her crit above that of Gatrie’s against the enemies he doesn’t double. And against those he does double or those neither double, Titania’s skl advantage is highlighted. Add all this to the fact that she has 3 bond supports instead of 1, and it’s clear that Titania has a higher chance to crit against every enemy.

Boyd also has an Oscar bond for +10 crit, let alone the Mist bond. Boyd also has a skill advantage. Boyd has a higher chance to crit against most enemies, meaning he uses the killer axe better.

Rofl? He sucks in HM. Besides, even if you were stupid enough to use him, Shinon gets higher crit against every enemy due to doubling more and higher skill which means that he uses the killer bow better against everything except SM’s, who Rolf does better against only if he has his bond supports activated.

Interesting to note, that by using the Killer bow, Shinon only takes it away from one unit, whereas with the killer axe, Gatrie prevents 2 units from using it, both of whom use it better than him. It’s clear that this is a bigger negative for Gatrie.

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And btw: Gatrie isn’t likely to get the killer axe to ORKO in the first place.

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Geoffrey is likely to keep it (this is about the Brave Lance), actually, as it is needed for him to double in part 3, chapter 9. Even if you didn’t give it to him, both Nephenee and Oscar wouldn’t mind the brave lance either. The likely hood that Gatrie gets this weapon is once again unlikely.

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True, but is Gatrie getting the hammer and Horseslayer? The hammer has obviously been worn down by Haar, and is on the verge of breaking. Haar would keep it anyway, since he’s the only one who can really use it since the generals are on the other side of the river/swamp. The Horseslayer can be used by Haar, Oscar and Nephenee, who can use it better due to bigger mov.

---

Also, there’s a possibility that Shinon gets the brave bow at 3-7 if you send someone from the DB to the GM’s. Jill could do this, as she has to compete with many a better unit for exp (Nolan, Tauroneo, Volug and Zihark are all arguably better than her.), so is likely not to be used. Just thought I’d throw that out there.

Okay, this is pretty long, so I'm going to seperate it by bolding the parts I want to talk about.

Who's Getting The Killer Axe?

Let's be serious for a moment here. Titania, Boyd, and Gatrie are the three possible choices of obtaining this weapon. So I will explain why it's just as likely, or even more likely, that Gatrie can obtain this weapon.

=Titania: While she's pretty solid as is and will have a higher chance to crit due to doubling, she barely has a "Skill advantage" over him (a whopping 4, which offers +2 Crit). We could also argue that Titania shouldn't be getting kills at this point. If anything, she should act like a Jeigan for the first couple of chapters to allow other GM members to play catch-up. And her taking the kills is actually a bad thing: while someone like Ike could've got 20 Exp, we just got stuck with Titania obtaining... maybe 3. Which is better? 20 Exp for a unit that could grow a little, or 3 Exp for a unit that's getting this for a short while and has other units on her team that could use the Exp more? In regards to Bonds: Rhys and Mist aren't keeping up with her anyway without babying. Mist can come close later on, but for now she's nowhere near Titania's Mov range. Ike is possible, but we have to really consider if Ike wants Titania. Well, it's not a horrible choice, but it's the Bond that's saving this. He'll have 13, 20, and 27 Avoid upon support building with +2 Defense and +8 Accuracy, on top of +5 Critical. I guess it's not a terrible choice, but Ike would rather have some offense than defense seeing as he's actually got great Avoid with his affinity. And even so: she has +5 Critical at best from this. Gatrie can also match this with Shinon support (I don't know why you're throwing this possibility away, so I'll address it later). It's because she shouldn't be killing things this early that I'd like to say her obtaining it is unlikely.

=Boyd: First off, I'm going to catch you contradicting yourself later on. But from a realistic standpoint, the only unit that might accept the Boyd support is Rofl. Yeah, it's pathetic, but is Oscar really wanting accuracy? The only good news is he obtains +10 Avoid and +10 Crit from this Bond, leaving him with 17, 25, and 33 Avoid with +2 Attack. Okay, this is actually likely, but let's remember something else: it's out of range. Why Boyd / Rofl is possible? It doesn't have such an innate Avoid, but they're within range and still offers the +10 Crit and Avoid. Rofl would actually appreciate the Boyd support for that, since it's possible Oscar isn't as likely as wanted. Even so, let's face some more facts. Boyd has 18 AS at the start, so his "critkill" seems pretty terrible if you ask me. His Skill lead? A whopping two. At least with Titania you were getting somewhere with this argument. With Boyd, you're almost getting nowhere. Gatrie will double way before Boyd will, so I'm pretty sure Boyd's only advantage is obtaining Bond's, and he better pray that Oscar is a possibility. Otherwise, I'm not seeing it.

So, it's still very possible Gatrie can nab it. He'll double before Boyd, and he'll match Titania in Str as well as having Bonds with +5 Critical. Still not seeing why it's so unlikely that Gatrie is getting that Killer Axe. It's also bad that you didn't give much reasoning; you simply spewed "Boyd critkill and Titania h4x". At least I provided reasons that they might not have it.

---

Let's talk about the Killer Bow next. There is a total of one, and there are still two units that could obtain it. Shinon may just be oblivious about it, but Rofl has a interesting chance of nabbing it. It's arguable that he has trouble doubling, so he could at least curb this problem with a "critkill". He has Bonds that range from Boyd, Mist, and even Shinon. He has 4 less Skill, or 2% less chance of a critical hit, without factoring doubling. AND, Rofl has Boyd for +10 added to his critical. The only reason Shinon has an upper hand is because of doubling. Still, since he's at Level 1 he can climb levels fairly quickly, thus being able to double a bit faster if time is put into him. Despite you nor I probably avoiding Rofl, there are other people who would gladly use Rolf. Shinon does not have a monopoly either: the only unit that can actually brag this would be Soren.

Let's add something else:

What’s there to give him? I gave him a steel poleaxe and a killer axe. I never mentioned that they could run out of anything like that either. The CRK has plenty of gold for a 2000 killer bow and weapons for Haar, Kieran, Geoffrey, Gatrie and more.

But the problem is that it isn't guaranteed that we're purchasing the Killer Bow. Who, again, is using that bow in Part II? I don't think Astrid is, so buying it just for Shinon seems to be playing favouritism all over again.

---

For the Brave Lance, are we serious about Geoffrey? Why should he keep it? So that it only has little use? It's not like Geoffrey is begging for it. He's got a variety of weapons already, so what if he cannot double on 3-9? He's going "poof" until 4-5, and it's unlikely Marcia or Devdan's one chapter is outclassing Gatrie's... many chapters of its use. Geoffrey can easily pass this to the GMs since they use it much better than any of his infantry. And to why Gatrie is getting it over, say, Oscar and Nephenee? Review time!

Oscar

Chapter 3-2, assuming that he is at base, we have 20 Str, enough Speed to quadruple some enemies, and Canto. Here's the problem: the lack of Str. Oscar can ORKO units, but he requires more uses than, say, Gatrie. Yeah, 30 Atk against units such as Halberdiers? 13 damage. 26 damage upon two hits. Now Oscar has to take a hit. 13 more damage, or 39 total. That's when he will ORKO. 3 uses of that Brave Lance is a lot. His Str is not exactly allowing him to obtain this.

Nephenee

I'd almost ask if you were serious, but okay. At 20/10, Nephenee has even less Str than Oscar but more AS. Same scenario: she's way too weak to take the full advantage of this. She's doing pretty pitiful damage with 18 Str, or 28 Atk with the Brave Lance. That's even worse than Shinon. And she's getting it because she can quadruple everything? I don't think so. Here's something that's funny: Halberdiers with 17 Defense need to take 4 hits from Nephenee using the Brave Lance just to be ORKOed. That's pathetic. Oh wait, these guys can have about 18 Defense, or 19 Defense backed by 36-37 HP? Sure there aren't many Halberdiers, but Paladins are about equal in the defensive stats here. Those Paladins / Halberdiers with 19 damage and have at least 37 HP? Forget 4HKOing these idiots. 9x4=36. Ouch.

Gatrie

Gatrie will not quadruple much unless he obtains a Speed level. But it's forgotten by 25 Str, or 35 Atk with the Brave Lance. Gatrie cannot ORKO those with 18 Defense or higher unless he obtains a Str point; however, there is an easy way to adjust this. An Attack support will easily give Gatrie enough Attack in order to KO 36 HP / 18 Def units, which is saying more than Oscar at least. Gatrie will now ORKO quite a few units which include Halberdiers later on, most of the Paladins present, and the Sages. Are we really going to waste a Brave Lance just to quadruple a bunch of enemies and cross fingers for 3HKOes, or are we actually going to give this weapon to a unit that can 2HKO sometimes? My vote is easily going to the latter, as well as many other players.

---

Hammer and Horseslayer? Alright, Gatrie won't always obtain both of these. But still, you cannot deny that Gatrie DOES have access to these. So because there might be another unit using them, that should diminish Gatrie's potential? I think not. There are two Hammers total and one Horseslayer, and someone like Haar using both of these still seems as unlikely. Don't even attempt to deny Gatrie's access to these because he can still use them, and easily. He's bragging OHKOes with a Hammer against Generals. Base Haar (with 23 Str) can miss out on some of those OHKOes, while Gatrie is guaranteed the ORKOes. With Horseslayer, we have both of them ORKOing. But back to Shinon versus Gatrie: Gatrie can ORKO more units than Shinon now without relying on chance. Looks like Shinon just lost on offense potential that quickly just with access to these two (three) weapons.

---

Brave Bow? You deny Gatrie access of Brave Lance, Hammer, and Horseslayer, but now we're allowing Shinon to nab a Brave Bow? What if Leondardo is using it? Well, then Shinon just lost out on a weapon. And if Jill and Zihark don't cross, which is still fairly likely? Well, game over Shinon. You just lost out on another Killer Weapon, a Brave Bow, and another Crossbow. At least with the Hammer, Horseslayer, and Brave Lance there are less strings attatched (Marcia joins 2-E and can trade to myriad units). Why would Geoffrey want the Horseslayer anyway? It's only useful for his joining chapter. And what about Rolf, who has doubling problems but could arguably have higher Str at this point? Wouldn't he like it more than Shinon since he only scratches 30 Atk at base? And it doesn't improve much more after that? Shinon would burn through this weapon quickly, especially since he'd need 3 good hits just to nab a ORKO (or if he's damn lucky, a critical).

But there's more? What about the Silencer?

What things? Any weapons near breaking have been replaced already, whilst the near-broken weapons would have been sold. Weapons from units like Brom, Mist and Rhys, which you won’t use for combat purposes, can be sold too. Not to mention the white gem you can get from a senator in 3-3. Don’t want to kill the senator? Steal it then, Heather’s fast enough. Even if you didn’t sell any of the weapons, the blue and white gems add up to 15000 gold. The silencer costs 8000, leaving 7000 gold to be spent on anything you like. This, added to the skills you don’t want, can last until 3-10, when you get your next massive payment (20000 gold)

Great that we have that money to spend, but why spend over half our gold just to improve Shinon, when we could do forges that can improve multiple units? 8000 Gold is 8000 Gold no matter how you attempt to word it, and I could argue that it's a huge amount of favouritism if we're doing this. We might as well let Gatrie obtain a Steel Lance that has +5 Might for 2400 Gold? Want to add +15 Critical too? 6000. And that's STILL less than a Silencer. And if we want to go even further with this, we could argue the Coin could give the weapon even more potential: even if it is "just accuracy".

Next thing I would like to note: I highly apologize about the Authority Stars ordeal. I didn't have the game on me to test it beforehand, and assumed it worked similair to supports. However, I do want to argue on Shinon's earlygame dodging:

I am agreeing on the 78 Avoid, but Gatrie isn't behind by much either. 20 ASx2=40+15 Luck=55+15 Authority Stars=70. Shinon is beating Gatrie by a... whopping 8 points. 52% chance of Shinon's displayed hit against 130 Hit units versus a 60% chance of Gatrie's displayed hit against 130 Hit units. We're talking about an 8% difference here. Well well, looks like Shinon's durability lead has diminished quite a bit. Without the supports. Surely, we cannot say that Shinon's 8 Avoid is beating Gatrie's 4 Defense now, can we? Oh, supports? Could argue Shinon / Gatrie support is still possible. Sure, you'll deny it, but it offers bonuses Shinon likes: +3 Defense, good Avoid, and some Critical toppled onto it. These guys can be matched on Defense and Avoid department, and both of them avoid death this way. As for Shinon supporting other units... well, let's roll out the tables.

Well, I was being nice to Gatrie by giving Shinon a poor support, but whatever. Doesn’t change much except now he has move avo.

Now, Gatrie’s support options are profoundly limited. Nephenee or Brom are the only realistic ones as he can easily get into their range (Ike supports Mia, Titania supports Oscar, Soren supports Shinon, Mordecai supports Haar, Rhys supports Mist, Boyd supports Ranulf etc). Brom is unlikely to be used, so let’s give Gatrie a Nephenee support. (Not the best of supports, but it’s better than none)

With this, every Atk stat I said Gatrie had should be reduced by 1.

I have no idea why you brought this up, it’s only helping me defeat you.

First off, allow me to say that you made yourself look like an idiot with this post.

Soren has the affinity that Shinon wants: Offense and Avoid. However, we have +2 Str, +2 Def, and +15 Avoid to brag is all versus Shinon / Gatrie's +13 Avoid. The only difference here is -1 Def, -2 Avoid, and -2 Atk. The problem? The main issue is that Soren DOES have a Bond with a fairly powerful unit: Ike. Think it's unlikely? Think again. DarkXEarth is powerful for Ike, since it offers good offense and godly avoid. Even though it's +5, SorenXIke gets +15 Avoid from a C alone. That's arguably better than EarthXEarth, which offers the exact same amount of Avoid but no Atk boost.

Here's where the contradiction begins: back to the discussion with critkills. Do we see Boyd supporting Oscar, Mist or Rhys supporting Titania, etc? Holy shit... no we don't. And some of these combinations are just terrible. Especially the Gatrie X Nephenee support. Here's the deal: Gatrie is fine with every affinity EXCEPT Wind itself. Like Shinon, he'd like an offensive boost (Water, Dark, and Fire), Def boost is fine (Water, Light, and Thunder), and is fine with an Avoid bonus. But Wind? Come on man, he doesn't want that affinity at all. Neither does Nephenee want Light. I'd argue she'd want someone like Brom thanks to the Water / Wind affinity and the Bonds making it an okay support. We could also go back and argue that Nephenee prefers Thunder thanks to a Defense boost while sharing the evasion support. Surprise? Shinon fit the bill, not Gatrie. So hey, why is Gatrie getting Nephenee again? I'm not seeing the logic upon this. ShinonXGatrie is an excellent support, and the sad fact is you're throwing this away. Shockingly, I'm giving you the upper hand here since Shinon gets more Crit, Defense, and around the same Avoid if he supported with a Wind, Thunder, or Dark affinity. Soren's got a good affinity, which a lot of units would like. The reason I mentioned Mia / Shinon was because it was still a terrible combination despite +2 Atk. It made you look rather... dumb? And then you retaliate taking the Soren support (by the way: Soren doesn't want Shinon much. His Def is pretty low as is) and give Gatrie a Nephenee support (and again: Nephenee doesn't want Gatrie's bonuses).

It’s mostly because of mov. Sure, they both have the same roles, but Mordy rushes ahead of Gatrie. He’d much rather support Haar, who’s also a tank, but matches his mov. It’s not like it gives the worst bonuses in the world either - attack and defence are both nice.

Mordecai isn't always matching Haar in movement. At least, untransformed. And he has to use pots to keep himself in shape. Haar could fly away from a distance, leaving Mordy and him unsupported. Besides, it seems pretty one-sided because Mordecai isn't needing Avoid nor Accuracy. At least Gatrie offers Defense, which Mordecai doesn't mind; especially if he's untransformed.

But you CAN. For example, in chapter 1, I have shown how Gatrie actually takes more damage:

That halberdier has 29 Atk which has a 75% displayed chance of dealing 5 damage to Gatrie and a 52% displayed chance to deal 9 damage to Shinon. Real chance is slightly higher. Is that 4 damage better than the 23 avoid? No. After 2 attacks, Shinon has a 27% chance of getting hit both times; whereas Gatrie has 56% chance, more than double Shinon’s. So over half the time, Gatrie is getting dealt 10 damage from those 2 attacks, whilst more than 2 thirds of the time Shinon dodges one and takes only 9 damage. As you can see, Gatrie is taking more damage overall.

Gatrie is not doing better defensively, because the majority of the time, Shinon takes less damage than Gatrie, I didn’t even mention that 23% of the time Shinon dodges both attacks.

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Even if I am wrong about this, Shinon dodges one of the two attacks made by that 130 hit unit 55% of the time. And the chance for the 3HKO’ing Warriors to hit is 44-47% (displayed)(111/114 - 63 = 44/47). So no matter which of us is right about this, Shinon barely gets hit. Besides, Ike will stand near Shinon some of the time.

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Not really, I included the authority stars for Gatrie, too. Meaning that Gatrie gets hit over 50% of the time by those that 4 round him (also displayed). That authority bonus vanishing means that they both get killed after a similar amount of attacks (not hits, but attacks). Defensive lead? Gone.

The authority stars should always be calculated in anyway.

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It really isn’t, I have shown above that without Ike and the idea that authority bonuses always exist, Gatrie and Shinon die after a similar amount of attacks. Meaning that Shinon and Gatrie have an equal chance to die.

But that’s rubbish, Ike’s authority bonuses activate whether he’s nearby or not. Meaning Shinon’s getting hit even less.

I assume you meant when Ike’s not around?

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Concrete > Luck doesn’t prove anything. Shinon’s 70 avo means that hit rates are 50-65% (without authority bonuses, which are always in effect anyway). Overall, Shinon doesn’t get hit much, and even if he did, units only 4HKO to 5HKO him. What are the chances of said 5 hits happening? Very little. Shinon will never die, ever. Gatrie will never die, ever. Is overkill durability > enough durability to never die? No.

Back to the discussion at hand, Gatrie has Defense while Shinon has a little more Avoid IF he gets something crazy like the Dark support or lolEarth. And a final retort to the whole "Avoid" situation, remember that it is affected by Biorythym, while Defense is not. This means Shinon may be able to Avoid a bit more, but could also be at risk of being hit due to the Biorythym getting the best of you, ranging from -10 Avoid and +10 Hit to +10 Avoid and -10 Hit, so 20 Avoid either way. Gatrie doesn't give a damn: he's taking pretty low damage to begin with. Shinon has a possibility of taking ~10 damage minimum from units, which isn't to say the least "good". Concrete Defense always will beat the luck factor of Avoid, because Avoid is a varying factor to begin with.

The only problem is that the opponent's hit gets better later on. The SP units in Part IV, IIRC, could easily have >25 Skill, which amounts to 50 at Base. The Halberdiers can have 130 Hit at worst with a Steel Greatlance, and this only improves further up because these guys have a pretty high Luck stat. It's to the point where Shinon is still at risk of taking a hit. Gatrie, however, has a solid Defense stat. He doesn't give a damn about being hit at all. While Shinon doesn't either, he still has to be precautious about taking hits more than Gatrie. Even at the very beginning, these guys have >50% displayed hit on Shinon, which could easily be determined by flipping a coin. So, even though you will ignore that Gatrie has the obvious Defense lead, it is very possible Shinon can take more damage since their Avoid is roughly the same (there's a miniscule difference between these two if they got themselves supporting each other, or if Gatrie at least got +8 Avoid versus Shinon's +15 at best). No matter what: Gatrie will take less damage, despite Avoid being there. I'd say that it's a victory for Gatrie, although you are right that they are "somewhat comparable".

Before I get too far, let's back up to the Master Crown argument. Remember: this isn't a resource that isn't needed, but it isn't hindering anyone at this point either. In fact, I could refute your argument of difference between "Want" and "Get". Let's see what you've said at first of why Gatrie isn't getting the crown:

Potential? Shame they’ll never reach it as their fail offence stops them from improving much. So, in the long run, this master crown could be better for them durably and offensively as it actually allows them to grow, whereas with their rubbish stats they have before promotion, they can’t grow, meaning they will never improve.

Before you answer “they barely get any exp after promotion” whilst this is true, it actually gives them decent enough stats to match their exp input before promotion. At least when part 4 rolls around they’ll be able to actually do things, without the crown, they might struggle to. Meaning the crown gives them endgame potential, without it, they might not be in the run for endgame.

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While it is true that Zihark has access to one in the part 3 DB chapters, that doesn’t remove the possibility of him joining the GM’s. At the GM’s he’s likely to get to a higher level due to more chapters and thus, more bexp and cexp. With this higher level, Zihark’s losses from the master crown are smaller, so he benefits that much more from going to the GM’s. Also, The DB could use that Master crown, Tauroneo, Nolan or Jill can use the two they have access to for a quick statistical boost (Any statistical losses are made up through bonuses and better combat performance) so Zihark might not necessarily use the one from the DB.

Oscar level 12? Oscar can use it at level 15 or so (which is the level he should be by the time Gatrie gets to level 14). This gives him a boost to his offence, which he really needs with a mere ~21 strength at the time, and AS. In fact Oscar gets AS equal to that of Gatrie’s if Gatrie promoted at level 14/0, meaning Gatrie doesn’t use it better than Oscar offensively, as it helps Oscar actually deal damage, whereas before he couldn’t deal damage.

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I don’t think you’ve read my post. You can keep the master crown until Soren can use it well. Why do you have to use it at this point. Just because Gatrie can use it the best now, doesn’t mean he uses it the best overall. Soren could have gained a level, at best, but this is because he’s a lower level than Gatrie.

He got 2 levels, that’s more than fair in the chapters Gatrie is in. After all, he sucks in prologue, is average in chapter 1 and 2 as he doesn’t one round much, and he is good in chapter 3 as he can make very good use of the chokeholes (there are more than in chapter 1). I hardly see 2 levels as unfair.

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I’ve shown why Nephenee, Mia and Oscar could want it later on and not at the time when the master crown is found.

How many more later? Enough for all of them? No. You get 2 more from the info conversations. (the two in the DB stays in the DB, obviously). Let’s see who are competing with Gatrie for these 3 crowns:

•Shinon

•Titania

•Haar

•Nephenee

•Mia

•Boyd

•Oscar

•Tanith

•Soren

•Zihark?

•Jill?

As you can see, giving Gatrie that master crown is a MASSIVE sin, especially as he could promote naturally before part 4. Meaning that he doesn’t actually need the crown to promote, meaning giving him the crown is forcing most of (maybe not Jill or Zihark, but they’re possibilities) these units into a tough part 4, whereas Gatrie doesn’t really have a tough part 4 in the first place. Which is helping the team more? Giving Gatrie an easy part 4 when he already gets one or giving Soren a good part 4 when he doesn’t get one?

Edited June 11, 2009 by Colonel M

[Colonel M]

Part II of it.

Alright, let's cover your "MASSIVE" sin and why it's actually worse to give these guys the Master Crown. But before that, let's review that the Master Crown is available at 3-3. Despite your lack of reasoning why Gatrie shouldn't get it, you instead shoved a bunch of units that could never possibly get it this early. It's almost pathetic that Gatrie has an upper hand against most of the listed here.

Shinon

Level 13

43 HP | 21 Str | 7 Mag | 28 Skl | 24 Spd | 15 Luck | 20 Def | 14 Res

Cap Notes (Pre-Level 20/1)

- Caps Skill at Level 16

- Caps HP at Level 17

- Caps Spd at Level 17

Gains Upon Promotion:

- Permanant +1 to Range (excludes Crossbows)

- +5 Critical

- Deadeye, which has Skill/2% chance of activating. Triples damage and puts foes to sleep.

Okay, so I was pretty fair to Shinon on why he could nab it, and I'll try this again. Look, we already have up to 10 range against units (it isn't even that much to brag about) before promotion: you seem to forget this weapon called a LongBow, which isn't a hinderance because of Shinon's good Skill. So what the hell are we getting from an early promotion? Just breaking his Speed and Skill caps, which aren't even that big of a deal to begin with. Maybe if he capped Str or Def or had poor Spd, maybe it'd be a different story. Or, you know, a significant advantage.

As far as capping past-promotion, Speed and Skill aren't that big of deals. However, he's already missing 3 points in Str from his cap at 20/20. That's... shaky. An early promotion could cost this even more to a max of a 5 Str gap. That's not good, especially since Bows aren't really a "powerful" weapon to begin with. The only two bows that have an okay kick to them are the Silencer and Double Bow. One, we aren't getting until 3-E unless we like to spend >1/2 of our resources in order to obtain it, and the latter doesn't kick until Endgame.

Here's something that doesn't change: his bad Enemy Phase. Yeah, he STILL requires someone to trade with him, which means it is very possible that we lost a unit that could've been battling or healing instead. This means that, despite being able to do okay as a choker (someone who can hold a chokepoint), he cannot do it very well due to "eh" Attack with a Crossbow and without it he can produc a total of... 0 damage.

While it isn't the worst idea promoting Shinon early, he'd like the Str level-up potential as much as possible. Also, his benefits aren't as clear as you attempt to claim them to be: he can have up to 10 range, but it doesn't mean that he won't be able to reach that max. If anything, he's going to use less movement sometimes to attack from a further range. Not only does this make his Mov advantage a little less... great, per se, but it also means he isn't going to take the full advantage of up-to potential. Oh, and his Enemy Phase STILL sucks.

Titania

Level 16

36 HP | 25 Str | 10 Mag | 22 Skl | 21 Spd | 19 Luck | 20 Def | 14 Res

Cap Notes:

- Caps Str at Level 18.

Gains Upon Promotion:

- C Rank in Swords

- Sol, which has Skill/2% chance of activating. Does Triple Damage and heals the user equal to the damage done to the opponent.

Unfortunately, Titania is only capping Str before promotion. She also isn't leveling up quickly either since she'll be acting like a Jeigan for the first couple chapters so her friends can catch-up in levels. An early promotion might not be great on her case of AS at least: she caps at 20/17 with 33 AS. She obtains 31 AS at 20/13, just to clarify at least this much. If she could at least cap Speed before promotion (which I find unlikely), she could warrant it more than Gatrie. Ironically, Gatrie obtains 23 AS (his cap) by Level 15, while Titania is reaching it by Level 20. So Gatrie's 5 levels versus Titania's 4... and she's of higher level, which means she's growing a lot slower, then factor that his Str cap is higher and that he has better HP to tack onto him... but this is solely about Titania.

An early promotion just isn't giving her much to work with. Just her Mastery Skill and... Swords. And break her Str cap. She could arguably get it right at her level; however, she'd like to work for more Speed as a Paladin where she could at least get more Experience. The C Rank in Swords at least guarantees Wyrmslayer by B, which is possibly the only blade she is touching (or Tempest Blade if she can exceed to an S rank). I guess my thing is she still has a lot to grow from. She's not exactly the best defenition of "durability", but at least she can have a chance of an early crowning with her okay bases.

Haar

Level 11

46 HP | 23 Str | 2 Mag | 24 Skl | 20 Spd | 13 Luck | 23 Def | 7 Res

Cap Notes:

- Caps Str at Level 20

- Caps Skl at Level 14

- Caps Def at Level 16

Promotion Gains:

- Stun, which has a Skill% chance to activate. Triples damage and paralyzes the enemy for a turn.

Well, Haar has good bases. Unfortunately, his growths aren't exactly the best. We're talking about 30% for HP and Speed. His Str is good (70%) with Skill about the same, and a nice Def growth (65%), but everything else is just... erm, low? Haar needs those levels pretty badly, especially if he expects to double Endgame. The poor guy doesn't even reach 31 Speed on average, unless he gets that Speedwing (which arguably is all he'll need). I think Haar is better off attempting to level up all the way to 20 then trying to get an early crowning. Otherwise, he might suffer some blows to his stats such as HP (he misses the cap by 2) and Spd (also missed by 2).

Nephenee

Level 1

32 HP | 15 Str | 6 Mag | 19 Skl | 20 Spd | 12 Luck | 15 Def | 14 Res

Cap Notes:

- Caps Res at Level 10

- Caps Skl at Level 11

- Caps Spd at Level 12

Promotion Gains:

- +5 Critical

- Impale, which activates Skill% of the time. Does x4 Damage.

Well, Impale is cool for her low Str. But that is her big issue: low Str. We're talking about not even coming close to her Tier 2 cap (21.65 / 25), and even missing a bit on her Tier 3 cap (31.3 / 34). She'll definitely need as many levels as possible to clean this up. Now her Res, Skl, and Speed are guaranteed to cap, which at least is an "okay" reason to think about a promotion. Even so, an early promotion could be dangerous to her Str unless she's being fed BExp like crazy, which would signify favortism. Besides, she couldn't take advantage of it much due to her 3rd cap being Res, which caps at 20/18. Why aren't we giving it to her earlier? We're trying to build up our BExp, not squander it off. She can take advantage of it in Tier 2 by Level 12 at least... but she'd need about 4 Levels of BExp to cap Str, which still isn't that "great". I think that it's better for Nephenee to stay unpromoted so she can build up that shaky stat.

Mia

Level 7

34 HP | 17 Str | 5 Mag | 26 Skl | 28 Spd | 18 Luck | 13 Def | 8 Res

Cap Notes:

- Caps Spd at Level 11

- Caps Skl at Level 14

- Caps HP at Level 16

Promotion Gains:

- Crit +10

- Astra, which activates Skill/2% of the time. 5 Consecutive hits. No criticals can be activated during Astra; however, other skills such as Disarm and Cancel can.

Same boat as Nephenee: Str is a problem here. It doesn't improve at a fast pace, and we're stuck with... Swords. Notice that she can cap Str at Tier 3, but the cap is literally horrible: 31. At 20/13. She'll want those level-ups since she can build the Str faster at Tier 2 than Tier 3, and can cap other things once she gets past 20/10. Promoting her early... would tarnish this a bit. Already doubling, and promoting only breaks her already set Speed cap and her set Skill cap as well. Mm... not seeing the huge reason why to promote her early except for the +3 Speed, and even so the earliest she can consider it is Level 16, assuming we'd like to cap everything. Astra's cool, but it has a sucky activation rate. Even with 32 Skill and two rounds, we're only seeing this activating. At best, we might see it activate... 30% of the time if we're lucky. Not seeing why she'd get it early on either...

Boyd

Level 8

45 HP | 22 Str | 1 Mag | 20 Skl | 18 Spd | 13 Luck | 15 Def | 8 Res

Cap Notes:

- Caps HP at Level 18.

Promotional Gains:

- +5 Crit

- Colossus, which activates Skill% of the time. Triples Str

So he can really pack a punch after promotion... if he could even double. Yeah, we have to realize that Boyd's only statistical advantage over Gatrie is lol 2 Skill. And two levels won't improve that. Boyd isn't the type of character that will get out of his AS problems early. Level 15, we could at least get 21 AS, but that's in 7 Levels. Gatrie gets that even faster. Anyway, for Boyd's advantages of getting the Crown? ...I'm lost. The only thing that seems to be going for Boyd is Colossus and maybe getting more AS if he has 19, but even then we're screwing his potential tenfold. He can't promote early: that would be a terrible idea.

Oscar

Level 12

38 HP | 20 Str | 7 Mag | 22 Skl | 21 Spd | 18 Luck | 17 Def | 13 Res

Cap Notes:

- Caps Skill at Level 16.

- Caps Speed at Level 17.

Promotional Gains:

- C Rank in Bows (...)

- Sol, which activates Skill/2% of the time. Triples damage, and the user restores health equal to the damage dealt to the opponent.

Well... he shouldn't promote early either. 20 Str is pretty... erm, bad. We're talking him being like a Nephenee with a Bow and a Horse: misses out on Str caps by quite a bit (31 Str by 20/20? Uh oh...) and nothing that really stands out except Speed and Skill. The growing of Skill will help Sol activate more often, but the caps nearly tarnish it. We're talking about 17% at max Skill, which is pretty "eh". If Oscar doubles, he has a 68% chance of not activating Sol, which is pretty steep. He needs Str levels as much as possible, and the levels to help bolster his HP and Def would also help. Oh, did I forget to mention that he has a 32 Spd cap, which is only 1 more than Gatrie's Marshall cap? Man, Paladins took a beating in this game.

Tanith

Level 16

35 HP | 20 Str | 10 Mag | 21 Skl | 23 Spd | 22 Luck | 19 Def | 20 Res

Cap Notes:

- Caps Skill at Level 20

Promotional Gains:

- Stun, which activates Skill% of the time. Triples damage and opponent is stunned for one turn.

I'd argue that it's way too late for someone such as Tanith to get this, but okay. She's got Swords, which isn't that great and Lances which are okay. Her Str is kind of "meh", but the growth is pretty good: 55%. In Tier 3, she'll cap Str, Skl, and Def. I'd say an early promo can tarnish these too: she has okay potential to do so, but her low Str (we're talking around base Oscar range) kind of hurts. Her Earth affinity is cool, but she needs supports in order to take advantage of it. Well, Haar is probably taken. I guess there's Sigrun if she goes with Micaiah: Earth+Water is actually pretty decent, and might as well take advantage of a bad unit that is forced to be deployed. Just not seeing why she should promote early since the +2 Str she can gain from level ups would mount 25 Str after promotion. Otherwise... yeah. Nice... choice. >_<;

Soren

Level 5

28 HP | 9 Str | 23 Mag | 21 Skl | 18 Spd | 11 Luck | 9 Def | 21 Res

Cap Notes:

- Caps Res at Level 8

- Caps Skill at Level 9

- Caps Mag at Level 10

- Caps Speed at Level 20

Promotion Gains:

- E Rank in Staves

- Flare, which activates Skill% of the time. Negates Resistance and user restores health equal to the damage dealt.

Okay, here's the reasons Soren might want it. Staves is the big one followed by high Magic to make use of them. His affinity is pretty good: Dark offers offense and Avoid, an excellent combination. He has a Bond with Ike at least... which isn't unlikely to obtain. And then there's Soren not having a whole lot of Endgame potential to begin with. So, might as well have someone that has offense and potential to heal right? Uhm... I guess. Some might stick it out though: his Speed growth is kind of low (35%)... backed by a 31 Speed cap like the Marshalls. Ugh, what is up with the classes and low caps in certain places? Oh well. Anyway, it might be okay to use a crown early IF you have no plans of using Soren later on. Otherwise, we have Mist / Rhys to heal to begin with, and Mist will always become a better healer than both of these due to Canto and higher Movement. It's Rhys and Soren's higher Mag that makes wielding Heal staves easy though, and Physic can heal from a distance. Still, it could be a while before we hit C in Staves. I think it's better for Soren to grow a bit; however, if you want to promote him early, don't make many plans to use him. Just keep in mind that there still are two healers.

Zihark / Jill

Though it's difficult to determine that these two will even cross to the GM in the first place, let's also remember that we have more competition to deal with. Zihark is able to beat Mia at least, but he still isn't the greatest recipient either. Jill has Haar to compete against, and her low Str is a key problem from promoting early on. And, there's also the possibility of getting the DB's Master Crown. There's only Nolan and Neo to compete with most of the time. Neo has a chance of nabbing it, while Nolan has no problems right now, though he might like a little doubling potential in the next chapter. After, he's got Laguz and his trusty Crossbow + Beastfoe to kill everything. Leo and Eddy aren't likely used; however, they would benefit more from a later promotion than an early one. It's the whole "these guys might stick with the DB" that makes it difficult to determine this.

Gatrie

Level 10

44 HP | 25 Str | 5 Mag | 18 Skl | 20 Spd | 15 Luck | 24 Def | 11 Res

Cap Notes:

- Caps HP at Level 12

- Caps Str at Level 14

- Caps Spd at Level 15

- Caps Def at Level 20

Promotional Gains:

- D Rank in Swords

- Luna, which activates Skill% of the time. Negates opponent's Defense and Triples Damage.

Okay, so at first we have to consider that he isn't getting a whole lot from promotion... at a glance. He gains a D rank in Swords and still maintains 6 Mov (which by the way isn't as terrible as you put it). The thing is what he gains AFTER promotion that almost no one else does. Even at base for cripe's sake. We're talking enough AS to double, more Str than almost everyone in the team, and solid HP and Def. Oscar's problem? Str. Boyd's problem? AS. Gatrie has neither. Well, he isn't doubling a whole lot at base Spd of 20, but within 1 point he suddenly doubles a lot. We're talking about a unit that could be the best recipient at base, easily. He prefers leveling up though, but he's about done at Level 15 with his Spd, Str, and HP capped. He isn't taking a major hit with an early promotion either. In Tier 3, he caps Str by 20/13, Spd by 20/11, and Def by 20/10. If he promotes early... well, he might not cap Str and Spd that early. His Def won't cap by 20/10 if he promotes at Level 15; however, 20/15 could obtain it. The main reasons he can nab the crown? Good base stats and caps good stats early. For Luna, 10/1 Gatrie can activate Luna 40% of the time when he doubles, 15/1 will 44% of the time, and 20/1 48% of the time.

The main reasons why Gatrie nabs this crown early is because he could have it as early as base and actually kick a lot of ass with it. The problem is he won't double some units with the Level 10 promotion; however, no one else that isn't doubling them already won't with a promotion (i.e. Titania, Oscar, Boyd). How much more would I have to argue that he has the possibility of getting it. Though he "wants" it, it's possible that he can "get" it before anyone else. The simple fact that I can use the crown as early as 3-3 gives Gatrie the upper hand due to his competition either not existing (Tanith, Jill, and Zihark), units that need to level up before reaching level 10 (Soren, Nephenee, Mia), or units that don't get much better statistically (everyone else). Yes, even Shinon doesn't want the early crown because it isn't backed up by good growths. Gatrie can afford an early crowning because his HP, Str, Spd, and Def will catch up since they all are over 50%. Shinon's Str growth isn't that great (40%) and the base itself is iffy (21). And then, I'll add more about this quote here:

Nice how you just showed the bonuses, instead of what they bring. Shinon has 10 Atk range, Gatrie is stuck with 7 (Hand axes are really weak). That’s a 3 Atk win for Shinon, which is huge. Before you get confused, Shinon can attack an enemy 10 spaces ahead of Shinon’s starting position, Gatrie can only attack a unit 7 squares ahead.

First off, Shinon had 10 Attack range in the first place. And Hand Axes being weak? Your Steel Bow obtains a whopping 2 more base Mt, and that is bombed by Gatrie's +4 Str lead. Well, so much for that one. As for Attack Range... uh, I could also argue that there are some problems with this. Shinon doesn't want to barge in the frontlines. We have Provoke that is drawing more enemies to Shinon in the first place, use of Crossbow (early) and Aqqar (later on), and these weapons are expensive as is (3500 and 6250, respectively). What's worse is there's a total of one Aqqar. Anyway, Provoke is drawing in a lot of enemies, and it's not something Shinon wants to take. He prefers attacking from the distance, so it's possible that he's not using his full extent of Mov. If anything, Gatrie could move further than Shinon at times since the convincing of attacking at 3 range could provide Shinon moving only 4 spaces, assuming the enemy is within limits. I wouldn't say that attack range is a huge ordeal when he's had this to begin with. And, unless this is wrong or I interpreted wrong: according to Here under Accuracy calculations, Note 3 says Accuracy is -30 if attacking from a range of 3.

Oh and his enemy phrase is no longer shitty. Huzzah for the Aqqar, which has 34 MT. Add this to Shinon’s Atk bonus from his support and you get 36 MT. That’s ~14 per hit or so against halberdiers with 22 def. If you think they have grown 2 def from 3-8 (so they’ll be 23 def), then their speed could be 23 too, meaning Gatrie wouldn’t double them. So he’d 2 round them. What about crit? He has a 24% chance to crit in one round (Halberdiers had 17 dodge before, so I increased it by 1)(16 + 15 = 31. 31 - 18 = 13. The chance of Shinon not critting is 87/100 * 87/100 = 76/100. So the chance of Shinon critting is 100 - 76 = 24%) with the Aqqar (increased to 33% with a bond support active. 13 + 5 = 18. 82/100 * 82/100 = 67/100 chance of not critting, 100 - 67 = 33%), which means that about 1/4(or a third) of all the enemies Shinon fights on the enemy phrase he one rounds. On the player phrase he has the silencer which gives him an mt of 44 - enough to ORKO the halberdier. If he doesn’t ORKO the enemy he fights (which would mean that Gatrie didn’t also, since Gatrie has 44 mt with a Nephenee support and steel poleaxe), his crit with the silencer is 36. If that unit had 20 dodge then the chance of a critical increases (due to doubling) to 29% (100 - 16 = 84. 84/100 * 84/100 = 71/100 chance to not crit. 100 - 71 = 29%) or it increases to 38% with a bond support (16 = 5 = 21. 100 - 21 = 79. 79/100 * 79/100 = 62/100 chance not to crit. 100 - 62 = 38%). Not to mention Shinon has regained access to the killer weapons, meaning he can send his crit through the roof if he so wishes.

Huzzah indeed, because that still doesn't beat BASE GATRIE WITH A STEEL POLEAXE. Also, 29 Str Gatrie has 44 Mt to begin with, or plopping 21 damage at worst. Shinon's damn lucky to have Aqqar: it's a pity that there's a total of one with 25 uses, or ~13 Enemy Phases at worst, and there could be competition called Rolf if he's been trained up, who could arguably have a better crit rate thanks to a Boyd support (Boyd isn't getting much from any other support but Oscar, but that's difficult to obtain). And remember that Silencer isn't around until 3-E unless we're being serious about spending over half our gold just to spoil one character. 'Tis a pity Aqqar isn't coming until the very end of 3-11. Unless he can get Taksh from Nolan / Leonardo, which Shinon has a low chance of obtaining in the first place since these two are doing great with it (hint: Beastfoe). And still, what makes us think Shinon is obtaining +2 Atk still? Ever forget Gatrie could get someone other than the rather crappy suggestion you gave him? Yeesh.

Gatrie deals more damage to those he doubles, but less to those he doesn’t and have 28 def or lower (most units since generals had 27 def in 3-11). This is forgetting that Gatrie actually attacks less people on the enemy phrase since fewer can reach him. 6 mov ftl. Any win you could say Gatrie has offensively is miniscule and obsolete.

Huh? 34-23=14, or 28 with doubling. 44-23=21, or 42 with doubling. Since when is Shinon dealing more damage to units with 28 Def or lower, unless Gatrie doesn't double them? Oh by the way: his 6 Movement isn't terrible, and Shinon still could have to sacrifice movement to attack someone from a fair distance. In fact, Gatrie doesn't care about enemies swarming to him: it's too bad Shinon better hope that his Biorythym is at best and their's is at worst and Shinon got a support somewhere with extra Avoid. Too bad Shinon has Provoke, which could draw more enemies than he would want to fight. Ftl. Hell, give Provoke to Gatrie and he'll be laughing at the vast majority of units trying to dent him.

Defensively, neither are dying. (Shinon has 27 def, 49 HP and 103 avo, with authority bonuses which are always in effect anyway, he’s not dying) So any leads Gatrie has is again unnecessary since overkill durability is not > enough durability to survive.

Keep in mind Gatrie's base Avoid is 77 by 15/1 and 79 by 20/1. By the way: 20/1 Shinon has 25 Def, 49 HP, and 88 Avoid without supports. This is rivaled by 15/1 Gatrie's 49 HP, 29 Def, and 81 Avoid or 83 with 20/1. Avoid distance could be matched with Shinon / Gatrie support, or Shinon's Avoid is about +15 compared to Gatrie's... +7 at worst. With a shitty support on my part. Oh, and +2 Def to Shinon because who the heck knows why Gatrie got Nephenee. Yeah, I could rival favouritism on your part since Soren / Gatrie is not a bad combination, or neither could obtain it if Ike is taking Soren under his hands (and with that Bond, it's quite possible), and then we give Gatrie the worst support possible (not even realistic). It could be torn between +2 Atk or +15 Avoid, since a lot (and I mean A LOT) of units want that Dark affinity. And since Avoid could be affected by biorythym to the point that Shinon's Avoid could be lower at times, I'd say Gatrie beats Shinon with his good Def without supports, and because Avoid could be screwed with easily, Gatrie could still have the lead here. Overkill is better than "enough" no matter how you put it.

He’ll probably be at level 20/2 by now, with his great endgame and bexp from the last chapter. Soren gives Shinon 15 extra avo, giving him 88 without authority. Since ike has 3 authority stars and he’s your leader you get 15 avo from him. Do enemies have over 153 hit? I highly doubt it. All enemies have less than 50 hit on Shinon on this chapter, especially with things like steel great lances/steel blades/steel poleaxes which are also quite common on this chapter. Add this to his brilliant concrete durability (49 HP and 27 def is very good) and he isn’t dying. So durably Shinon and Gatrie are the same. Offensively, Shinon’s higher crit, mov range, great mt and sight range (Gatrie has 2, whilst Shinon has 3 IIRC) ultimately makes him the better unit.

Where I bolded. Guess what this is? Favouritism. Who says Shinon is getting it? What about a lot of those Dawn Brigade units? There's more than just Shinon who could nab this.

Don't go too far with Soren's +15 Avoid, because it isn't guaranteed since a lot of people other than Shinon want Soren (even Gatrie wants a slice). Ike will give the +15 Avoid with Authority stars though. Shinon has a total of 88 Avoid to 15/1 Gatrie's 81. Even if I give you +15 Avoid, we have 103 Avoid to Nephenee / Gatrie's 89. Shinon / Gatrie is also a possibility, offering 101 Avoid and boosting Gatrie to 94. This still isn't terrible amount of Avoid, but there is a boost of stats by 3-11.

I see few units that have less than 150 Hit, and those wielding GreatLances / PoleAxes / Blades have a fair Skill boost or Luck boost to accomodate it. And Shinon's Avoid is all dependant on the Bioryhthm. The concrete Defense will help quite a bit at this point, and even 15/1 Gatrie sports 29 Def w/out supports, or 31 with just himself giving the bonuses (In your case: Gatrie / Nephenee blech blech blech). 20/1 still boasts 32 Def, or 34 with the Supports. If he promotes earlier though, it's possible he could've nabbed at least a Def Level. Anyway, Gatrie's 25 AS is doing pretty good here. We have a lot of units that still have 22-26 AS, but there's a total of 15 units that have this high of a Speed stat, while the rest do not (42). That's a pretty fair amount. Shinon will double everyone barring some Bishops and Swordmasters. These guys sport pretty good Def too: we're talking a range from 19-27 Def (Physical units). Shinon's still stuck with the 28 Mt Crossbow, so it has effectively dropped in power considerably. Meanwhile, Gatrie has his Steel Poleaxe and a whopping 44 Atk and chance of doubling many units on the map. Shinon with a Steel Bow averages 35 Atk. Ouch. AND, these guys have Dodge rates that are pretty high: most of them over 17. 20/1 Shinon has 16 base Crit + 15 from his class, or 31. 31-17=14. 73% chance to not crit, which is 3 chances out of 4. The Crossbow's average Atk? Probably 8 Damage, though a lot of units have over 20 Def. Gatrie can ORKO a lot of these units, while Shinon is 2RKOing unless he activates a critical (or obtains the Silencer, which is still against him due to the steep price). The only units he doesn't ORKO are those he doesn't double or those that are Generals / Dragonmasters, and even Shinon has trouble putting major damage through the Generals while Dragonmaster's 23 Def and 44 HP prevents Steel Bow Shinon from ORKOing. Gatrie's Def lead allows him to never be 3RKOed except by the one Dragonmaster with the Hammer. And remember: the physical units range from 36-44. Shinon, on the other hand, follows a decent chance of being 2HKOed assuming he has 49 HP / 25 Def. The 36 Mt units produce a 5RKO, but 40 is about the average. These guys 4RKO. Then the 44 Mt freaks 3RKO Shinon. Meanwhile, 49 HP / 29 Def Gatrie is 7RKOed at minimum, ~40 Atk units 5RKO. And these numbers can change pending on when he promoted. 32 Def (20/1) Gatrie is 12RKOed by the 36 Atk units, ~40 Atk 6RKOes, and ~44 Mt is 4RKOed still. And these numbers become even better with supports: 31 Def scores around the same averages as listed above, while 34 Def at worst from a Nephenee support and hitting 20/1 is being 5RKOed. Gatrie is never at risk of dying. Almost... ever. Shinon isn't at a huge risk, but Shinon taking more damage and drawing units in isn't his natural forte. These guys are tough, and Shinon is suffering from it. Gatrie obtains a huge win from here-on out.

And to answer about Part IV? I can almost guarantee there are units that have >150 Hit just by glancing at 3-11. Shinon's Avoid is suddenly paler while Gatrie's Def shows itself much better around here.

Authority stars are in effect as long as the leader has them, it is not affected by the proximity of the leader. Meaning Shinon has 103 avo permanently. But, chances are, Ike will be nearby. Unless you’re trying to hold off the tonnes of reinforcements that come with just Soren, Gatrie and Shinon, which would make it near impossible to

I assume you mean from behind, as Shinon’s blocking the ledge, along with Ike. Gatrie can deal with the chokehole slightly to the north west of the ledges and Soren can handle the mages coming from the right. Shinon’s never getting sneaked up against.

Admitted to the Authority Stars argument (man that killed me). Still, I get that Shinon can attack 3 units, but Gatrie attacking the units under him is still a good advantage for him.

Shame they have super-inaccurate weapon hits then don’t they.

Not really. I've shown that 3-11 units have high Hit despite wielding some of the super-inaccurate weapons (the exception is things like Storm Swords). So, I'd say that Shinon is still at a fair risk of taking damage, while Gatrie can take it with little to worry about.

Shinon’s enemy phrase does not suck, he gets attacked more than Gatrie (due to higher mov making him in the Atk range of more enemies), has a good chance to crit and deals good damage with 36 mt. Overall, I’d say his contribution was near-equal to that of Gatrie’s offensively, on the enemy phrase. On the player it’s a completely different story, Shinon’s larger sight radius, bigger Atk range and consistently good MT makes Shinon’s player phrase better than Gatrie’s. Not to mention the Pegasii, which you rightly mentioned, which moves Shinon’s offense far above that of Gatrie’s.

Alright, the main reason Shinon is being attacked more often is because of having Provoke and being a Marksman. Having +1 Mov has nothing to do with it. Aqqar has 34 Mt, or 36 with supports. Assuming these guys get slightly better Def stats, Shinon will only 2RKO with the bow. Meanwhile, Gatrie will have chances to ORKO some units on the Enemy Phase. He's also taking less damage due to the Avoid paling in comparison to the enemies higher Hit rates. I don't think it is near-equal. Assuming that we're dealing with 36 Atk versus 22 Def, we're doing 28 damage. Gatrie with a Steel Poleaxe, or even a Silver Poleaxe? 22 in one round, or 25 in one round. This increases if Gatrie doubles, which is fairly likely if he's keeping up in levels.

Besides, Gatrie will always be better at holding the chokepoint due to worrying less about taking hits due to the Def stat. Shinon is better off firing from a distance and nabbing the Pegasi trying to sneak up on the rest of the team, or hitting units that are within Gatrie's 1-2 range. These two can easily cooperate, and it's not like Shinon is doing bad on the Player Phase thanks to Silencer / Silver Bow / Killer Bow if we want to stretch it that far.

He can deal good damage up to endgame (4) if you train him up right, aka baby him and use reyson to give him 2 kills per turn until level 17, when it’s a good idea to use a master crown on him.

Colonel M: Hey Rolf.

Rolf: Hey Colonel.

Colonel M: Because of this statement above, I have no problems trying to baby you since you can actually become a pretty decent unit.

Rolf: Sweet.

Colonel M: Just keep in mind that you're going to be taking some Exp, but it shouldn't be a huge ordeal. While we're at it, here's Shinon's Killer Bow and Crossbow, since you have equal potential of it.

Rolf: Awesome.

The point is training Pelleas is a pain in the ass. He's not exactly "durable", probably isn't doubling until hitting Level 17, and has shaky Hit rates (we're talking about 120 with Verrine). Like I've said: slapping him the early crown will give him some Speed and access to Staves, so he can at least avoid combat as much as possible. It's just a risky situation to train him is all I'm getting at. He'd need Paragon at least to grow levels pretty quickly to hit Tier 3.

Also, Trading is not a con because the trader can do things afterwards; rescuing stops a unit from having a player phrase. What’s better, having both a player phrase and enemy phrase or just an enemy phrase? The answer is obvious. Besides, rescuing wastes a complete turn without Reyson, who is busy helping Pelleas level up.

You're correct on the trading. Sort of. Remember: it's still possible that the unit could go without an Attack phase if the enemy is too far away. And it's also likely that Shinon might not have an Enemy Phase due to certain circumstances such as protecting another unit that is in danger of dying. Rescuing, on the other hand, is easy. Tibarn has Savior, so him rescuing Gatrie doesn't affect his Speed and Skill. Meanwhile, another Hawk can plop Savior on themselves and drop him off. The thickets aren't that ""thick" (about 3-5 spaces), and Gatrie only needs clearance up to there. Reyson can still help him clear these too, or he can simply walk through them. And don't forget a couple other things: there's Boots if we're interested, and he's probably the best candidate due to low Mov.

Keep in mind Rescuing and Trading can go without a Player Phase. However, this chapter is probably the only time Gatrie is actually wanting rescues (in order to help clear the BExp requirements). Meanwhile, Shinon needed help on his Enemy Phase by units trading with him since 3-1, and we STILL have to do it. Rescuing for one chapter at worst > Trading for over ten chapters.

“Want” and “get” are two different things. Shinon does best with dragonfoe as he doesn’t take counters from dragons on the player phrase, unlike any other unit that would get dragonfoe, who’d have to take the hit. Beast foe is debateable, but Shinon’s crossbows give him better bonuses. Unless there are other crossbow users around, he has little competition for it since the crossbows make him the best candidate. So Shinon is the best candidate for these skills, which means saying he gets them isn’t unrealistic. He’s got a higher chance of getting these skills than Gatrie has of getting a master crown in 3-4, that’s for certain.

In comparison to Shinon vs. Gatrie, Shinon can have Dragonfoe while Gatrie could nab Beastfoe or Birdfoe. They'd both have effective damage against two different laguz types (remember there's still Wyrmslayer). The main reason Shinon could obtain Dragonfoe is because he can attack them from a distance or slap a Crossbow for insane base Mts. Keep in mind that there are 5 potential Crossbow users: 3 of which that can attack from 2-3 range (Shinon, Rolf, and Leonardo). I'm not saying Shinon isn't getting Dragonfoe, and I'm not saying Gatrie is guaranteed Wyrmslayer and other XFoes. My point is: the description does not say "Shinon / Gatrie only".

I gave Gatrie Birdfoe to make it fairer, this means Gatrie is great against 1 of the 3, whereas Shinon is good against 3 of the 3 (or maybe 2). Either way, Shinon still has a bigger advantage over Gatrie as he gets at least dragonfoe.

I'd say 2 max. Same with Gatrie.

This logic works against Gatrie, since crossbows are awesome against bird laguz. And Shinon still doesn’t take counters from dragons AND still kills the majority of beast laguz. Shinon > Gatrie on this chapter, no matter how you look at it.

But in Gatrie's defense, I can plop a Brave Axe and Dragonfoe and either 2HKO or nearly 2HKO with taking little risk of damage. It's still 33 base Mt. Wyrmslayer is just more likely because they're more common than the XFoes and Braves. But Shinon > Gatrie is stretching it when these guys have pretty solid Def stats (barring Birds) while Shinon isn't doing reliable damage without the skills except with Silencer / Silver Bow. A forged Silver Bow wouldn't be a terrible idea since it boosts its base Mt to 20, though I could argue we could adjust the Silver Axe to 19 base Mt, or 57 with an XFoe. Without the skills, they're quite comparable. Gatrie is likely taking less damage, though Shinon is at least preventing himself from taking damage during the Player Phase. Just saying that they're still fairly comparable.

By the way, that Wyrm slayer is the same as a skill: others can use it (Elincia, Lucia, Mia, Zihark etc) and want it, too. So giving Gatrie a Wyrm slayer whilst Shinon gets no foes is favouritism.

You can obtain a minimum of 4 from the bargains (one you need to keep in the convoy since you get it at 4-1). I'd say he has a pretty good chance of getting at least one Wyrmslayer.

30AS is reasonable, as Gatrie can get a level from 3-endgame, 2 from 4-2 and 5 from 4-5. Leaving him at level 9 with 30AS.

And in two levels, we can obtain the last of the AS.

Kurthnaga could also use the speedwing so he isn’t doubled. A similar story for Ena, who will be used actively for blood tide.

He should just avoid combat altogether except 4-E-3 when he isn't being counterattacked (...I think). Tides are the big reasons why these two are being deployed in the first place (3 with Nasir).

No he couldn’t. Shinon kills with dragonfoe, so does Gatrie. Overkill is not an advantage. On enemy phrase, his arbalest gives him insane bonuses, anyway.

He's better off using the Double Bow since it has 1-3 range in the first place and a good base Mt (66 with Dragonfoe). Gatrie using Wyrmslayer is fine, but Dragonfoe + Brave Weapon is still a plausable option (or using Wishblade).

This is true, except that only leader’s authority stars affect anything.

Shinon wins durability overall due to lack of counters on player phrase. Shinon does have a small chance to avoid the attack at least.

Still, it's possible that his Avoid isn't working as well as he wished it would. Gatrie's taking a counterattack, but his stout Def should allow him to take it pretty easily.

Why does Nasir have to follow Gatrie around to help him double? The fact that Shinon doubles without Nasir is a big plus for him.

It's true, but there are a lot of units that might not double at this point. Haar, for example. Nasir is being a huge help, especially in 4-E. It's possible if Shinon doesn't get 34 AS, which he won't double either.

His res stat isn’t that bad, however. Haar works much better with it due to res issues.

There are two Resolve Scrolls, so Gatrie can easily nab one (and having a good Res stat means it'll help once he's in the 50% range).

He’s got 7 chapters, 1 of which is fail (prologue) and on the rest he has doubling issues. 5 levels is pretty good for chapter 8.

Though another argument is BExp can help speed this process faster (just like Shinon and other units). His 60% chances of boosting Atk, Spd, and... Skl after HP is capped. I'd say that him having 5 chapters before chapter 8 is kind of stretching it. Shinon isn't growing much faster; if anything, he's growing at a slower pace than Gatrie except when Shinon hogs kills.

He doesn’t get the master crown because others use it later for more benefit - as in they actually get a decent late part 3 and good part 4, whereas before they would have sucked. I’m thinking of Oscar, Boyd, Mia and Nephenee who could all use the boosts to their advantage.

Argued it.

You could promote Shinon early too for a tank. It will only make his already good avo excellent, meaning he won’t be touched late part 3.

Except he will be touched late Part 3 and all of Part 4. Gatrie's higher Def WILL keep early tanking and later tanking noticable.

So you kept getting unlucky or used her foolishly, so what? Shinon’s avo is very high, not only that, but has quite good concrete durability too. Shinon will survive earlygame. And this crit thing, I’m not overestimating - I’m just posting facts: Shinon crits with a killer bow the majority of the time. With a crossbow it is usually just above a fifth of the time. I don’t say that Shinon crits all of the time, but usually, which are two different things.

Shinon's durability isn't that bad, but his Avoid stays pretty much in the 50s most of the time. Gatrie may have similair durability, but his Def lead will allow him to take less damage most of the time, as biorhythm affects Avoid while it never affects Def. I'll admit Shinon will crit some of the time and a bit more with that Killer Bow, but there's only 25 uses of that weapon. After it's been used up... then he's back to a pretty "eh" Player Phase. The Crossbow is a decent weapon to at least contribue a decent Enemy Phase, but it still requires someone to trade with him (and possibly lose a unit being healed or an enemy attacked) while Gatrie is always good with his Enemy Phase. Usually is fine with Killer Bow, but more like once in a while with any other weapon as far as crits go.

I showed how Gatrie actually takes more damage usually from a halberdier in 3-1. So it’s obvious that Shinon is better defensively.

Not really. Gatrie's off by a whopping 8 points in Avoid and has a +4 Def lead, and the Avoid will vary from time to time. If anything, Gatrie would have the upper hand since his Enemy Phase is pretty consistent while Shinon's relies a bit more on the Avoid system to keep away from trouble. But Shinon has decent HP / Def, that I will admit.

The two killer bows are enough to last until 3-5. Or at least until Shinon gets the silencer in 3-4.

The problem is getting one of those Killer Bows and getting the Silencer. Why would Astrid use the Killer Bow during CRK excursions? If anything, it's kind of applying favouritism sending a Killer Bow just for Shinon. And, Rolf is still capable of using the bow too, so we could easily deduct a Killer Bow from either situation. Silencer costs over half of your initial Gold... and forges are cheaper than that. That's pretty bad. We could benefit with that money contributing to more than one unit to be good than just one unit. Kind of like Mia and her forged weapons...

His enemy phrase is as good as Gatrie’s earlygame, perhaps better since he can crit a fifth of the time.

Once Gatrie doubles (which is pretty decent against some units), Gatrie will be doing more damage. It can come a bit earlier than expected (3-2). Shinon has a slight advantage because his doubling is contributing around the same damage, or a bit more if he does unleash a critical hit.

You still don’t understand do you? Trading does not waste the units turn. That unit can do anything after trading (except trading again, but there’s little worth in trading twice in one turn) from healing (he can use a vulnerary), to healing others (Mist/Rhys could trade, then use a physic stave to heal others or even heal Shinon when he needs to, especially since you keep going on about how he takes tonnes of damage), to attacking (Units can trade with Shinon, then attack) to rescuing and shoving. Trading does not slow down your team at all, in fact, it benefits your team as it gives a unit a good enemy phrase whilst they receive nothing bad in return.

Well, I've told that the situation can be vary (btw: there are no Physics early on. Earliest is... 3-2 if we're willing to give Elincia's to the team). There are many situations where Shinon will either not have an Enemy Phase, or a unit could lose out on an Attack Phase / Healing Phase. No matter how much sugar coating you put on it; it still is a disadvantage to Shinon.

When does Gatrie start doubling frequently? Endgame. Gatrie does not double many units earlygame, just the occasional general, sage and paladin. Shinon can ORKO earlygame, Gatrie can’t without the killer axe, which goes to Boyd or Titania before giving it to him. Even after getting it, Shinon crits more with the killer bow, so he still ORKO’s more often than Gatrie.

Try 3-2, and can still double frequently if he promotes even by Chapter 8. He won't double some units, but he'll have a higher damage output when he does. And without doubling, he comes fairly close or is beating Shinon in a lot of ways. Shinon can only ORKO a few enemies earlygame if its Sages or he obtains a critical hit. Gatrie can still obtain the Killer Axe since Titania / Boyd have nothing extremely notable to keeping it. Gatrie can still obtain the Killer Axe, and despite activating the Critical less, he still has a fair chance to ORKO because of it.

The brave lance? Haar, Oscar and Nephenee can all use the Brave lance better due to higher mov and same benefits (Nephenee deals great damage with 4 attacks, Oscar needs the 4 attacks too, Haar doesn’t double naturally like Gatrie whilst having the same great offence and durability). Geoffrey also wants it for 3-9 as enemies have 19-20AS there, meaning he won’t double much without it. Gatrie isn’t getting the brave lance.

Haar is the closest. But Gatrie is guaranteed to ORKO a lot of units if he obtains +1 in Str. Also, Nephenee might miss out on ORKOes despite hitting 4 times, and Oscar using it over Gatrie is highly questionable. Gatrie can sometimes use it twice, while other units need to use it 3-4 times in order to yield results, while having a risk of taking a counterattack. Just naming these people without sporting actual reasons is pretty bad. I've explained Gatrie can make best use of this weapon over all three of these, while Haar is the only one that might compare if he obtains some Str.

Gatrie doesn’t get early crowned as other want it more for bigger benefits, as it actually makes them playable in part 4, Gatrie is always playable in part 4 and is still quite good in part 3. Your logic is flawed with Gatrie being the only one at the time who wants the crown. That’s garbage; you could keep the crown until the others want it, and so Gatrie’s competing for that crown just as much as the others.

Similair to the Eliwood vs. Lyn argument, why give it to a unit that is "meh" or "well, he/she has at least something" instead of giving it to someone that is going to kick major ass with it and has little to no drawbacks from using it? Just so Gatrie can play fair and give it to Nephenee / Mia when arguably they want as many levels as possible? Okay.

Lol yeah, praying that he doesn’t hit me with that ~50% chance to miss. then praying that he doesn’t hit me again on the player phrase with his 27% chance to hit both times. Shinon just laughs at halberdiers. And again, when there’s a chance the a fifth of the chance for Shinon to ORKO, whilst Gatrie has 0% (Since he doesn’t get the killer axe earlygame), is a plus for Shinon, no matter how small it may be.

Which can easily fluctuate with the Biorhythm. Gatrie laughs just as much, perhaps even more because he's taking pitiful damage as it is. And he can still obtain the Killer Axe.

Authority stars are always in effect as long as the leader has them. You do not have to be close to ike for them to be in effect. So that point is moot.

Agreed to this mistake of mine.

How? There isn’t a weapon triangle in hard mode, so having 2 weapons is the same as having just one type of weapon. So having access to axes and lances = access to bows. If anything, Shinon has the advantage as he has little competition for the bows (His only competition is Rofl, who sucks), whilst there are tonnes who want those killer axes and killer lances.

It's called a wider selection. Whether it's accuracy, Mt, or bonuses against certain units, it has a higher weapon selection than that of Bows. Rolf is still fairgame to Shinon; he actually is better than Pelleas and obtains a better Str stat than Shinon. His Speed growth is decent, and he has arguably better bonds than Shinon. Shinon doesn't have a monopoly: only Soren can actually brag that.

The silencer comes at a point when you have tonnes of money to spend. Buying it is not a problem. Killer bows last until the end of 3-5, when they should be breaking (After all they are only used on the player phrase and sometimes they crit to score a OHKO) and so should the crossbow (For similar reasons, except that the OHKO is less likely. Still happens occasionally, however).

Buying it IS a problem when it costs 8000 / 15000 Gold. Killer Bow can last until the end of ~3-3, and the Crossbow could be used more or less pending on how many enemies are attracted to Shinon. Stating Crossbow unleashing a critical isn't exactly the best statment when it's main intent is Enemy Phase and it only happens 1/5 of the time.

The chance for Disarm is 28% when Shinon doubles - and he does double crossbow users (warriors and Snipers).

Now name how many Crossbow users there are? Seldom? I thought so.

Offensively, at the beginning, Shinon is better due to actually 1 rounding occasionally, whereas Gatrie never 1 rounds anything.

"But the Killer Axe gives him the chance." And then there's Brave Lance, Hammer, Horseslayer... these weapons are nearly guaranteed. Shinon's isn't always guaranteed an ORKO.

I Loled at your finishing sentence in this paragraph, you say I’m prioritising Shinon by giving him a skill he works the best with and then you give him a resource that he doesn’t work the best with? Shall we see how both of them get on without a resource? Shinon still does better in 4-5 since he get’s bonus damage against the birds, doesn’t get counter attacked by the dragons on the player phrase and kills the majority of the beast laguz too. Then Gatrie loses any sort of lead he has in 3-4 and 3-5. Shinon does better than Gatrie without any resources.

He can only kill the Dragons and Beast Laguz on the Player Phase. He's doing pitiful damage to them on the Enemy Phase. Gatrie still has access to Wyrmslayer since there's quite a few of them. It's more of the lines "there are many other units that can benefit from XFoe, not just Shinon".

You've also denied Gatrie access to a lot of items that he arguably does better with than most, or all, of his competitiors.

Earlygame, Shinon takes less damage overall than Gatrie. Part 4, Shinon dodges tonnes anyway.

This statement couldn't be more false. Earlygame, Shinon has a decent Avoid game, while Part 4 Shinon's Avoid game could be a hinderance (and could also argue late Part 3). Gatrie's Def is guaranteed: the Avoid fluctuates.

If we give neither a resource, Shinon > Gatrie. Gatrie needs that resource to be better than Shinon. Shinon doesn’t need a resource to be better than Gatrie.

Master Crown? Gatrie does alright without it: he's still capping Speed either way, same with Str and HP, and his Def will now cap. He doesn't need this resource; however, he's the best recipient at that point for obtaining it, and arguably later on.

This would be all well and good if Gatrie was the most deserving of that resource. But Gatrie is playable with or without said resource; Someone like Mia or Nephenee really struggles to be playable without said resource. You’re benefitting the team more by giving Nephenee or Mia the resource than by giving Gatrie the resource.

Gatrie is the most deserving though. You've stated Mia and Nephenee multiple times, and I've shut them down multiple more times. They aren't coming close to touching that early promotion: they're going to want to have as many levels as possible to even come close to comparing Gatrie.

2 good playable units > 1 overkill unit.

Depends. I could argue that having 1 overkill unit allows the decent unit able to actually become good. If anything, Gatrie obtaining this promotion allows others to reap the Exp more often, and then pointing back to Eliwood vs. Lyn argument: why should I give it to Lyn when Eliwood will always be better with (and arguably without) it?

Shinon > Gatrie in chapter 4-5 without a resource like an Xfoe, or with a resource like an Xfoe, so Shinon > Gatrie in chapter 4-5.

Untrue again. Shinon and Gatrie are more on equal terms, or Gatrie has an upper hand because he doesn't mind taking hits from anything barring too many Tigers and Dragons.

To conclude

Shinon > Gatrie early part 3, he has better offence due to crit. Better durability due to avo and good concrete durability.

This isn't true. His offense is only better in certain situations, and Gatrie still has an upper hand in offense against many other units. And Gatrie has better durability than Shinon: +8 Avoid versus +4 Def, and then the argument that Avoid can fluctuate due to Biorhythm? I'd say the solid +4 Def is better in most, if not, all situations.

Gatrie > Shinon late part 3, excluding endgame, because Shinon has a fail enemy phrase late part 3. Endgame, it is a tie.

Endgame still has a pretty "eh" Enemy Phase (he always has a pretty bad Enemy Phase) and relies on a weapon that has a total 1. Rolf could still obtain that weapon too, meaning it's possible Shinon's stuck with lolCrossbow. It should be highly emphasized Gatrie > Shinon mid to late Part 3, and arguably Gatrie has some advantages in early Part 3. I think Endgame Shinon caught up a little with promoting and access to Silencer, though Gatrie is doing better most of the time.

Shinon > Gatrie part 4 because Shinon has good mov in the desert chapter (2, but he has 3 Atk range to make up for it), can shoot down from ledges two spaces away on Oliver’s chapter and doesn’t suffer from a dragon counterattack on the player phrase and 4-5, whilst still owning the birds. Endgame is tie, both have great durability and great offence.

Said it once, and I'll say it again: Shinon will always beat Gatrie on Micaiah's route. For the other two, it's questionable. Gatrie has good Defense and can take quite a beating at this point, while Shinon has to rely a bit on his Avoid to survive. And at this point, their Hit rates are pretty high. Gatrie's Def will prevail when it comes to taking hits: period. As for Endgame, I'd give Shinon the upper edge tbh, but Gatrie is not chugging behind by much.

THE ULTIMATE CONCLUSION

It's more of a re-iteration of things that I've mentioned more than anything, but I've said that Avoid is a luck-based game, and concrete will always beat a luck situation. Remember: Hit and Avoid are affected by Biorhythm, so it is quite possible Shinon could take more damage. Gatrie will take less damage against most situation despite biorhythm being for or against him.

Earlygame, Shinon has a slight advantage at times with the Killer Bow in hand. His Enemy Phase is okay with the Crossbow, but it does require trading in order to maintain a good Enemy Phase. Meanwhile, Gatrie is only losing for a short while, and can obtain a huge boost once 3-2 comes around. We're talking about myriad weapons: Brave Lance, Killer Axe, Killer Lance, Hammers, and Horseslayer in particular. Short Axe and Tomahawk too. Once these factors come into play, Shinon's advantage is over: Gatrie can ORKO without the risk of playing luck-factored games.

Midgame is where Gatrie really takes the stage, though again it's arguable it could be earlier than that. A lot of reasons: loss of Killer Bow, potentially not getting a second one, Crossbow breaking or on the verge of it, enemies getting a lot better, potential to lack a Brave Bow, and finally likely to lack Silencer. A lot of things are to Shinon's disadvantage, and the Avoid lead isn't big enough to make a notable difference against Gatrie (like it even did in the first place). He'd need a support to keep his foundation stable, while Gatrie needs no Avoid. He'd like some offense and defense at worst, and a lot of good affinities offer it. Accuracy and Avoid are the least of his worries, though he doesn't mind them much. Early crowning could also tarnish Shinon even faster than usual: it's still a fairly likely concept of Gatrie getting it, while Shinon might have not even reached Level 20. Even by 3-E and a promoted Shinon, he at least obtain Aqqar and Silencer, but his Avoid hasn't improved much. Meanwhile, Gatrie's stout Defenses allow him to never be at risk of death, and Avoid can help this a bit more despite not wanting it that much.

Endgame, it all varies. Micaiah's route definitely goes to Shinon, but Ike and Tibarn's is a toss-up for Gatrie. He could possibly take Ike's due to being better at holding chokeholes, but Shinon has at least ledge advantage and being able to shoot down Pegasi in 4-1 is helpful. In Tibarn's I'd see it as a tie since they're both on equal terms of getting Skills, Wyrmslayer, etc. The true Endgame, Shinon has a small advantage due to naturally doubling in 4-E-4, but he'll need Nasir's help in 4-E. Gatrie will at least double, has access to Wishblade (like Shinon's access to Double Bow), and is still pretty solid with Nasir following him.

Overall, I like both of these units, but I'd have to say Gatrie has advantages over Shinon that are enough for Gatrie to be noticed. He is the man that will hit on trees with skirts, but his apathetic friend doesn't mind supporting him for decent Avoid, great Def, and of course +5 tacked onto Crit. But I'd like to say Gatrie's stout Defenses and access to different weapons help beat Shinon in the end, as well as potential for a lot of other goodies.

And yes: I'd like to do a debate agian. Although I screwed up in some areas, I had fun doing them.

---

Goddamn I feel long-winded.

[CT075]

Good thing I save most of my debate posts on Word.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Gordaran

[Vykan12]

@Colonel M: See if A2ZOMG has anything saved, and if so, you can re-make the topic. In any case, it would be a good idea to edit your 2 posts to keep this topic brief.

[Colonel M]

I shall edit them once I get things rickrolling. Unfortunately the Gatrie vs. Shinon one did take two pages, so that I can't really help out much. I can at least eliminate the Lott vs. OJ.

Camtech, did you get my argument too on Garcia's at least? I could really use that.

EDIT: I don't think A2ZOMG had anything saved, but I'm pretty sure he's all for doing the debate.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Colonel M

[CT075]

I didn't. I might still have my opener, but it's not on the computer that I'm on right now.

[Colonel M]

K, then get your opener.

As far as I know what I've lost:

- Roger vs. Caesar.

- Tiki vs. Etzel (on my part. Apparently Mekkah has his posts, so we can easily re-build most of it).

- Catria vs. Dolph.

- Franz vs. Forde (uh... I barely care about this one actually).

- Shinon vs. Gatrie (all but the last post. Grrr... though maybe Kirsche has some of his, so again, might be able to rebuild some of it).

I have Lott vs. OJ's opener, and Camtech supposedly has Garcia vs. Innes all set. The others... damn. Lot of cool debates lost (Roger and Dolph especially). I'd almost ask if we can redo some of them, but I think it would cause some complaining.

[Vykan12]

^ I need the name of your opponents to add it to my list.

[CT075]

K, then get your opener.

Not that easy. My Word document is on the hard drive of a computer that is currently sitting in a locked storage room. And my adolecent self doesn't have the key.

It's much more likely that I'm just going to rewrite the whole thing.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Gordaran

[Zkirsche]

I'm afraid I haven't...

I only have some very old debate posts saved.

But if you could re-post your opener and send your second post to me via a PM or something I'll try to get my first post together as well as possible.

Also, while we're at it, we could redo our Kieran vs. Oscar debate and don't focus so much on Boyd vs. Oscar this time...

Will do.

Ok, After our current one.

My debate with cynthia was ike vs haar, and has been retrieved, kinda.

Edited June 11, 2009 by kirsche

[Mekkah]

- Roger vs. Caesar. B2BD

- Tiki vs. Etzel Mekkah (I have all my posts from here, I can repost my opener if anyone cares)

- Catria vs. Dolph. B2BD

- Franz vs. Forde Camtech

- Shinon vs. Gatrie (I don't remember, could it have been kirsche?)

[Colonel M]

^ Yeah it was kirsche.

Also one last one: Minerva vs. Nabarl (Grandjackal) which I conceded due to me acting dumb and using Archer -> Sniper Nabarl.