OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

I thought I had Zihark over Nolan in the first place...Oh well, it's done now.

[-Cynthia-]

It's probably safe to move Sigrun over Bastian at least, no one seems to oppose it. I'm a little more wary about Vika, because Vika is actually quite good in 1-8, Sigrun is never really good on any chapter.

[Florete]

It's probably safe to move Sigrun over Bastian at least, no one seems to oppose it. I'm a little more wary about Vika, because Vika is actually quite good in 1-8, Sigrun is never really good on any chapter.

I wasn't so sure about that one myself. I'd offer to try it out in the debate boards, but I lack time more than I expected I would these days and already have two going as it is, one I have yet to reply to.

Also, I know it's been done to death, but what about Mia vs. Zihark? I've always assumed Zihark to be the winner, but with Mia constantly moving up and Zihark moving down it's not so clear anymore. Thoughts?

[Progenitus]

Zihark vs Mia is what I'd like to refer to as a basic debate that proves who understands how to judge a unit's usefulness. That is, performance relative to the PCs, not enemies.

Zihark performs better among the DB than Mia does among the GMs. It's as simple as that. Anyone who says "but zihark gets 2HKO'd" or "mia has more avoid" do not realize that Zihark's actual opponent isn't Mia, but rather the rest of the DB, and the same goes for Mia.

I'll go and find an argument WJC made about the whole performance relative to the PCs. Let me find it.

[Vykan12]

It's not quite that close since Mia wins part 4, and Zihark isn't all-staring the later chapters as much due to all the pre-promo h4x that joins the team. I still think Zihark is better, but there's decent arguments for both sides.

[dondon151]

Zihark performs better among the DB than Mia does among the GMs. It's as simple as that. Anyone who says "but zihark gets 2HKO'd" or "mia has more avoid" do not realize that Zihark's actual opponent isn't Mia, but rather the rest of the DB, and the same goes for Mia.

I fail to understand how "but Zihark gets 2HKO'd" isn't a legitimate argument. In 3-12 and 3-13 especially you have no shortage of ally units that do better than getting 2HKO'd so it's easily argued that Zihark's durability is a liability.

[-Cynthia-]

Zihark's durability Part 3 isn't so good, but compared to the rest of the team it isn't that bad, Mia's durabiltiy relative to her team isn't much better. All Mia really has over Zihark is Part 4, but she isn't completely dominating him.

I think they should stay where they are IMO.

Edited June 17, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Vykan12]

I fail to understand how "but Zihark gets 2HKO'd" isn't a legitimate argument. In 3-12 and 3-13 especially you have no shortage of ally units that do better than getting 2HKO'd so it's easily argued that Zihark's durability is a liability.

From earlier on:

Nolan lv 20/1 (B Zihark): 38 hp, 18 AS, 14 def (18 with tarvos), 80 avo

Zihark lv 20/6 (B Nolan): 32 hp, 25 AS, 14 def, 92 avo

Cat lvl 15

HP 42, Atk 27, AS 20, Hit 137, Avo 47, DEF 14, RES 10, Crit 10, Ddg 7

13 damage to Zihark, 9-13 to Nolan. Zihark is 3HKOed while Nolan is 3-5HKOed. Advantage for Nolan before considering avo.

Cat lvl 16

HP 43, Atk 29, AS 22, Hit 141, Avo 51, DEF 14, RES 10, Crit 11, Ddg 7

15 damage to Zihark, 22-30 to Nolan. Zihark is getting 3HKOed while Nolan is being 2HKOed.

Tiger lvl 15

HP 48, Atk 39, AS 16, Hit 136, Avo 38, DEF 18, RES 6, Crit 10, Ddg 6

25 damage to Zihark, 21-25 to Nolan. Both get 2HKOed by these guys even if Nolan is using the tarvos, so Zihark wins when avo is considered.

Seems to me like Nolan’s actually losing overall durability in this level, and I haven’t even brought up resolve.

Note that Zihark could switch to an A thunder support to gain 2 def while only losing avo to Nolan by 3, so that’s a trade-off he can make to increase his durability. If he does that as well as taking a seraph robe, tigers only 3HKO him (the same could be said for Nolan, but I’m just showing their durability is similar).

That leaves Aran, but I doubt a 15-17/1 Aran is going to beat him due to getting doubled by everything, and Volug.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Vykan12

[Progenitus]

http://s11.zetaboards.com/Fire_Emblem_Fusi...c/395621/1/#new

This is the most important part.

I beg to differ. In this case, performance relative to the enemies doesn’t matter at all. Performance relative to the rest of the team, when it’s relevant, quite obviously supersedes performance relative to the enemies. Take these two cases, assuming the exact same enemies are faced both times:

A unit who two-rounds enemies and dies in three rounds is godly if all other PCs on the team are five-rounding enemies and being one-rounded in return.

However, this same unit would be mediocre, or arguably just bad, if all other PCs on the team were one-rounding the enemies and barely taking any damage in return.

The enemies in these two cases are the exact same; all that’s different is the strength of the other PCs, and that makes the difference in our unit being toptier or being lowtier. Indeed, you can make the enemies stronger or weaker if you want in the two cases, and you’ll see that the result is the same. Make them weaker in the first case, for example, so that our unit one-rounds them and dies in four rounds, while everyone else four-rounds them and dies in two rounds. It doesn’t matter. Our unit is still toptier. Again, when it’s relevant, performance relative to other PCs is more important than performance relative to the enemies.

I say “when it’s relevant” because usually, it isn’t relevant. In debaet, pplz are usually comparing their units at the same point in the game (i.e. Kent in Ch. 15 vs Lyn in Ch. 15, then Kent in Ch. 20 vs Lyn in Ch. 20, etc); thus the other PCs are the same for both units in their comparisons, and therefore, comparing relative to the enemies is the best way to gauge which unit is better.

However, we’re comparing two units at two totally different points in the game (Amelia in Ch. 9 vs Dozla in late chapters in general); thus the PCs that Amelia is working alongside are quite different from the ones Dozla is working alongside, and therefore, performance relative to said other PCs is quite relevant here.

In other words...

Zihark is 1-2 rounding and getting 2 rounded in return (though with more avoid than pretty much everyone). His teammates aside from frickin Volug are generally 2-3 rounding and getting 2-3 rounded in return.

Mia is 2 rounding (3 rounding generals) and getting 2-3 rounded in return (like Zihark, with more avoid than pretty much everyone). Her teammates are 2 rounding (3 rounding generals) and getting 4+ rounded in return.

This is why Zihark's performance in the DB > Mia's performance in the GMs.

[Interceptor]

In other words...

Zihark is 1-2 rounding and getting 2 rounded in return (though with more avoid than pretty much everyone). His teammates aside from frickin Volug are generally 2-3 rounding and getting 2-3 rounded in return.

Mia is 2 rounding (3 rounding generals) and getting 2-3 rounded in return (like Zihark, with more avoid than pretty much everyone). Her teammates are 2 rounding (3 rounding generals) and getting 4+ rounded in return.

This is why Zihark's performance in the DB > Mia's performance in the GMs.

This is a misrepresentation of the facts. Mia's avoid can get so ridiculous that her chance to die in some cases needs to be represented with two or more significant digits. Saying that she "two rounds" is nakedly ignoring the fact that her crit is very significant, even without favored access to a resource like Adept.

Zihark vs. Mia is much more complex than just a quick blurb about avoid relative to the army, concrete durability, and clean-kill damage output. Anything that fails to account for something like the lowered value of offensive power in pseudo-Defend chapters such as 3-6 or 3-13 is already missing the point entirely.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Interceptor

[nflchamp]

Zihark vs Mia is what I'd like to refer to as a basic debate that proves who understands how to judge a unit's usefulness. That is, performance relative to the PCs, not enemies.

Yet the reason the Zihark being important to the DB raises his position on the tier list so high is because of enemies. <_<

Hypothetical time. (I'm only using a hypothetical to get at the underlying reason a character is ranked, so no one complain about it.) I'm looking at what effect chapter difficulty plays in how we rank the characters.

If Zihark and Mia were identical in every way possible and their preformances relative to their teams were absolutely identical (and they had equal availability, so that isn't in the equaion) but Zihark's chapter's are more difficult; who is better?

I'm not just calling out smash here, anyone can answer. I'll respond later about what I believe the responses show. I have work in a couple hours, so I apologize if I am not able to get to it for a while (due to people not responding soon enough).

Edit: Int being the only one to reply to this by now is kind of disappointing. At the moment I'm just going to assume that everyone agrees with Int. I really doubt that's true. But hey, I'll give my opinion on the matter in the mourning even if no one else has bothered to respond. Or maybe I'll just make a topic/poll about it...

Edited June 18, 2009 by nflchamp

[Interceptor]

Neither of them would be better in that hypothetical: they would tie game. If Zihark's performance relative to his army was identical to Mia's performance relative to her army, they are both contributing equally. In hypothetical terms, the difficulty of the chapter doesn't matter, performance relative to other options are what matters.

EDIT: actually, I should add as a qualifier that I am assuming that the chapters also have equal worth. If equal worth of chapters is not stipulated, you have argument on your hands.

Edited June 17, 2009 by Interceptor

[Zkirsche]

I think they are fine where they are, see, although it looks like they're far apart, the difference between them is small. In order to get Mia above Zihark, you'd have to get her above Ulki, Janaff, Nolan and gatrie. Is she b etter than all those? No.

In order for Zihark to drop, he'd have to go below Nolan (Which was just argued against), Ulki, Janaff and gatrie. Is he worse than all those, arguably not.

[Interceptor]

In order for Zihark to drop, he'd have to go below Nolan (Which was just argued against), Ulki, Janaff and gatrie. Is he worse than all those, arguably not.

What makes you so sure about that?

Gatrie is as invincible a unit as you tend to see, and his offense also delivers due to his base STR, access to Axes, and crowning potential. He even has a fairly respectable Endgame, with Braves. His only real weakness is his mobility, which is substantial but not impossible or unreasonable to mitigate. Personally, I think that he's one of the best units in Hard Mode. I was shocked when he wasn't even in High tier.

Ulki and Janaff and RNG-proof and barely require anything other than Strike WEXP, although you can toss Ulki a Drop. They have flying + shove + canto all at the same time, king mobility even indoors, excellent ORKO potential once they get masteries, very good durability, etc. If it weren't for their availbility, they'd probably be right in the top of the pile.

Zihark is a good unit, but he's also flawed. He has very good offense in Part 1, due to his SPD and access to special weaponry, but durability-wise he tends to always be 3rd-5th in line behind whatever ridiculous prepromotes are also there. His offense advantage turns into a liability in Part 3 when he's getting two-shotted. Come Part 4, his offense isn't special anymore -- relative to the other people who are around him -- and he's relying pretty heavily on crits. He's basically invincible at this point if he has EarthxEarth and went with Tibarn, now that enemies have normal mt and hir rates, but that's about the whole of it.

Z's High tier certainly, but his environment is not really kind to him. It's not as bad as it used to be, with him a pubic hair away from Ike, but an argument can certainly be made that he's lower than he is now, at least when people are able to be honest about DB Rank Inflation.

[soundecho]

I thought all you guys agreed in the FE 10 topic that Stefan > Lucia + Edward?

[-Cynthia-]

I thought all you guys agreed in the FE 10 topic that Stefan > Lucia + Edward?

There is a significant difference between what smash believes and what people that employ logic believe.

[soundecho]

Well there was obviously no objection towards it. And people like interceptor + mekkah + fox I think? said Stefan > Edward + lucia

[Progenitus]

Gatrie is as invincible a unit as you tend to see, and his offense also delivers due to his base STR, access to Axes, and crowning potential. He even has a fairly respectable Endgame, with Braves. His only real weakness is his mobility, which is substantial but not impossible or unreasonable to mitigate. Personally, I think that he's one of the best units in Hard Mode. I was shocked when he wasn't even in High tier.

Ulki and Janaff and RNG-proof and barely require anything other than Strike WEXP, although you can toss Ulki a Drop. They have flying + shove + canto all at the same time, king mobility even indoors, excellent ORKO potential once they get masteries, very good durability, etc. If it weren't for their availbility, they'd probably be right in the top of the pile.

Zihark is a good unit, but he's also flawed. He has very good offense in Part 1, due to his SPD and access to special weaponry, but durability-wise he tends to always be 3rd-5th in line behind whatever ridiculous prepromotes are also there. His offense advantage turns into a liability in Part 3 when he's getting two-shotted. Come Part 4, his offense isn't special anymore -- relative to the other people who are around him -- and he's relying pretty heavily on crits. He's basically invincible at this point if he has EarthxEarth and went with Tibarn, now that enemies have normal mt and hir rates, but that's about the whole of it.

Z's High tier certainly, but his environment is not really kind to him. It's not as bad as it used to be, with him a pubic hair away from Ike, but an argument can certainly be made that he's lower than he is now, at least when people are able to be honest about DB Rank Inflation.

Arguments can be made for and against all of them, e.g. The laguz have no 2-range and transformation issues.

Again, performance is relative to the PCs, not the enemies, so it doesn't matter exactly how much the GMs are pwning their enemies, but rather how the GMs fare against each other.

Well there was obviously no objection towards it. And people like interceptor + mekkah + fox I think? said Stefan > Edward + lucia

cynthia is just butthurt that i called him out for being a troll, so lol @ whatever he says about me

Edited June 18, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Vykan12]

don't worry sound, cynthia is just butthurt because I called him out for being a troll.

Or rather, you like instigating drama.

I have no objections to Stefan > Edward + Lucia.

[-Cynthia-]

Well there was obviously no objection towards it. And people like interceptor + mekkah + fox I think? said Stefan > Edward + lucia

Simply because they said it to please smash doesn't actually mean it's their opinion. Mekkah said Nephenee was the worst unit in part 2 to humor smash, but I doubt he agrees with smash's logic (srsly read the topic, smash provides some great lulz).

Anyway, onto the Stefan issue. Stefan is basically an entirely average character when he comes to Endgame, which is almost entirely useless since he's filling one of the precious ten slots. Edward and Lucia at least have utility in chapters beforehand, where we aren't packed with Royals/GMs etc.

Edited June 18, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[soundecho]

Simply because they said it to please smash doesn't actually mean it's their opinion. Mekkah said Nephenee was the worst unit in part 2 to humor smash, but I doubt he agrees with smash's logic (srsly read the topic, smash provides some great lulz).

Oh lawd, Int trying to please Smash, tell me when that happens? When I agreed with Int about a point he had a problem with that =="

Int: "Blah blah blah"

Me: Yes I agree

Int "Blah blah blah about how I'm wrong"

Me: But I agree with you o.O

Int: "I still disagree with you"

Me: But I agreed with what you said....

Int: Oh nevermind, pretend I never said that.

If you try, you should go look on Gamefaqs for epic lulz by a user called Snowy_One. I don't think anything surprises me anymore anyway after years on the FE9 board.

Anyway, onto the Stefan issue. Stefan is basically an entirely average character when he comes to Endgame, which is almost entirely useless since he's filling one of the precious ten slots. Edward and Lucia at least have utility in chapters beforehand, where we aren't packed with Royals/GMs etc.

I'll just quote Interceptor since it's easier.

Stefan. He has a decent Endgame no matter what you do with him, and requires next to nothing to get there. Lucia only has one good chapter, and while Eddie deserves some props for being decent in the first few Part 1 chapters, it seems unlikely to overcome Stefan's performance.

[Progenitus]

Or rather, you like instigating drama.

Nah, I just like pointing out the truth. I can't help it if people overreact and/or post retarded things.

Anyway, onto the Stefan issue. Stefan is basically an entirely average character when he comes to Endgame, which is almost entirely useless since he's filling one of the precious ten slots. Edward and Lucia at least have utility in chapters beforehand, where we aren't packed with Royals/GMs etc.

so only the best units are ever used at any given time mirite

In that case I think we need to reorder the tier list

TOP

HAAR

IKE

COUPLE OF OTHER GUYS

BOTTOM

EVERYONE ELSE

THIS IS WHAT CYNTHIA ACTUALLY BELIEVES

OF COURSE AT THIS POINT CYNTHIA IS PROBABLY GOING TO COMMENT ABOUT HOW I'M TALKING IN ALL CAPS AND IGNORE MY ACTUAL ARGUMENT LIKE HE DID EARLIER, THEN KICK BACK IN HIS LAZY CHAIR AND LIGHT UP A CIGAR

By the way, you can use a flier like Sigrun to ferry Micaiah over to Stefan's spot (the enemies have only 2 move in the desert so they aren't going to reach and kill them), and then have Stefan start raping the southeast corner early on, which is certainly more useful than Edward who becomes obsolete after 1-P and Lucia after 2-2, considering they're very short chapters.

And how many GMs are seriously outclassing him?

Titania has doubling issues, and if Stefan equips an SS sword he probably wins durability too thanks to the +def (and more HP/avoid. Actually he might win without it).

Boyd is like Titania without the mount.

Gatrie will have doubling issues unless he got the 3-3 crown.

Oscar has str issues and his mastery sucks balls.

The hawks and Ranulf have no 2-range, which kinda gets in the way in 4-E-3 and 4 and 5 where everything has 2-range and Stefan isn't loluseless on enemy phase.

Mia wins but not by crushing amounts. 1-2 points of str and def before supports.

So this leaves, like, Ike/Shinon who are seriously better, and even then Ike has to watch for speed screwage.

Oh no stefan loses to royals (who have no 2-range, so they have the same issues as hawks/ranulf, although they do have ridiculous offense/defense) and a few GMs.

Edited June 18, 2009 by smash fanatic

[-Cynthia-]

Putting Stefan above Edward would require putting a lot of emphasis on 4-E.

Edward is useful for at least chapters 1-P to 1-5. His performance in these chapters is above average, which is better than Stefan's Endgame which is average at best. That's pretty much all there is to it. We'd have to value Endgame as a chapter each, which is pretty silly, it's worth 2 full chapters at best.

You might want to try and argue some negative utility garbage for Eddie after that, but we can just drop him if he's no longer useful. Hey, he's performing just like Stefan!

Edited June 18, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Progenitus]

Edward is useful for at least chapters 1-P to 1-5. His performance in these chapters is above average, which is better than Stefan's Endgame which is average at best. That's pretty much all there is to it.

lolwut

Edward has 1-P

1-1 is just one long chokepoint, which means Nolan can do all the work, and in fact trying to have Edward tank in place of Nolan just makes you go slower.

1-2 is a bit more open, but you only need Laura to reach the arrive square, and there's hardly any enemies in the way that people like Sothe and Nolan can't take out on their own.

1-3 is laughable, because Edward is pretty much your worst unit in the chapter. Sothe godmodes, Nolan/Aran don't get 2HKO'd by the entire map, Micaiah/Leo/Ilyana potshot safely at 2-range, Laura heals. What does Edward give me besides some frontliner who actually can't frontline because he gets 2HKO'd by everything?

1-4 is pretty much the same thing. Although technically, Edward isn't the worst unit anymore since Meg joined. But he's still awful. lol @ him actually being useful here other than for shoving

Ditto for 1-5 only now Volug comes and starts roflstomping everything in sight with Sothe.

I also like how Stefan is somehow "average", but it seems you were busy typing this up when I posted my "what GMs are seriously outclassing Stefan" tidbit, so I'll just point you to that direction.

[Mekkah]

I agree with Stefan > Edward. Raising Edward like cuts Nolan's EXP gotten into half (or more), and even Nolan on his own with pretty much mostly prepromotes being used in HM means he's having a hard time being promoted at the end of part 1.

Nephenee's clearly not the worst part 2 unit though.