FE9 Tier List v2

[Tino]

Tier lists are way too subjective to ever be perfect.

That said, I'm not sure what the Gatrie discussion was all about (too lazy to read through it), but I'm not sure whether Gatrie and Brom should be this far apart from each other.

[-Cynthia-]

Tier lists are way too subjective to ever be perfect.

That said, I'm not sure what the Gatrie discussion was all about (too lazy to read through it), but I'm not sure whether Gatrie and Brom should be this far apart from each other.

Well, my point is Gatrie> Devdan. All Devdan has is a 1-2 AS lead(and 1 Mov I guess), assuming lots of KW usage for both. In contrast, Gatrie has 7 HP, 6 Str, and 9 Def over Devdan once Gatrie promotes. Even if we do think Devdan's lead is more important, I doubt it's good enough to outweigh Gatrie's earlygame utility.

[Progenitus]

Tier lists are way too subjective to ever be perfect.

That said, I'm not sure what the Gatrie discussion was all about (too lazy to read through it), but I'm not sure whether Gatrie and Brom should be this far apart from each other.

True, there should only be a tier gap between the two.

Thing is, Soren and Ilyana gain roughly the same healing capabilties as Rhys come Ch11(Master Seal), and they're constantly beating him after that due to more Spd, better Str in Ilyana's case, more durability once supports are considered, and a less horrible weapon type(light is the most expensive, and ties for both the lowest Mt and highest Wt). Yes, Rhys has early utility on them (marganlized on a few maps due to protection needs), but they're beating him if we put Seals on both Rhys or Soren/Ilyana for 20 chapters or so, which is more important IMO.

Their spd is only *slightly* better, and for Ilyana's case it's not even very big, if it even exists at all. If you're promoting them at chapter 11 with the master seal, they'll only be like level 10, which would give Soren 13-14 spd and Ilyana 12 spd. In comparison, throwing the seal on Rhys when he's level 14 would put him at ~11 spd. In this case, I could basically throw a speedwing on Rhys and he'll roughly tie Soren, and beat Ilyana forever (note that Ilyana also loses growth by 10).

Also, Rhys' average stats page on this site aren't quite accurate.

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe9/char_base2.htm

This page says that Rhys' bases vary from 0-2 points, and that does happen to me in my game too (as well as the guy who made the average stats FAQ on gamefaqs). I believe that Rhys for some reason starts at level 1, but when he joins he's autoleveled to 4. So if my assumption is correct, you need to add +1.2 HP, 0.15 str, 1.8 mag, 1.5 skl, 1.2 spd, 1.5 lck, 0.75 def, and 1.65 res. Which is how I got the ~11 spd for Rhys at 14/1.

Their durability lead isn't even very significant either

10/1 Soren

26.05 HP, 5.35 def, 13.05 res, 34.9 avo

10/1 Ilyana

25.8 HP, 5.6 def, 14 res, 32.2 avo

14/1 Rhys

28.2 HP, 5.25 def, 21.15 res, 34.9 avo

This is before supports, where Soren can get a bunch of avoid and Ilyana a bunch of def, but supports take time to build (at chapter 11, Soren has C Ike at best, and Ilyana has nothing), and Rhys has a slightly higher def/avo growth over both of them anyway.

Rhys doesn't care if light is a horrible weapon type, since he has more mag + more att support options (he has like 19 mag at 14/1, while Soren at 10/1 has 12-13 and Ilyana has 12). I guess he needs a forge to have any chance at doubling, but Soren does too for att and doubling (lol @ having like 17 att with elwind), and Ilyana has less spd so chances are a forge won't even help her much either. Note that she only has 4 str at 10/1, whcih means she still loses 2 AS from Elthunder, and will continue to do so until ~10/9.

So basically, is the speedwing on Rhys worth his earlygame utility (where healing is worth the most, mind, before it starts losing its value when people start promoting) before the master seal is available as well as Soren's massive suckage (and Ilyana less so, but suckage that still exists)?

And that's if you decide to go the master seal route with Rhys. Not sealing him at chapter 11 makes his midgame performance worse, but his lategame performance better. Do note that Rhys levels like a madman, since we have a bunch of A rank staves that Soren/Ilyana can never use (they cap out at B rank staves) and Mist is his only real competition for them, and he can also use the B rank staves/physic much, much earlier than them, which means he can just use them for free exp whenever he wants (let alone how useful they are, and how much better he does with them over Soren/Ilyana because he has more mag, which means he has more range + higher chance of landing sleep/silence/etc.). The Ashera staff alone comes at the edn of chapter 22, which already gives Rhys a free level.

Comparisons to Rhys aside, Soren and Ilyana are definitely providing a positive benefit once they promote, since healing is useful and they both maintain decent combat. Provding benefits for ~15 chapters before Geoffrey joins is more important than the 4 chapters he beats them for IMO.

The usefulness of healing tapers off once people promote and the majority of units on the team become durable, since if no one is worried about dying, healing is fairly pointless. Maybe if you're using low tiers like Mia will healing be important.

And their combat isn't *that* good. Ilyana's offense is okay at best (by the time everyone promotes normally she's going to be one of the slowest people on the team. Like, even slower than Devdan), and Soren must get a forge if he wants any semblance of speed (since Elwind doesn't have much att and everything else worth using weighs him down). And on the flip side their durability is garbage.

You're also underestimating how much Geoffrey beats Soren/Ilyana when they both exist, especially if you master seal'd them at chapter 11. The only things he really loses is lack of staves. He has a TON more durability and mobility, and beats them in offense too.

A 10/20 Ilyana would have like 27 att with Elthunder, and 10/20 Soren with Elwind about the same. In comparison, base level Geof with a regular silver lance has 34 att. And they're level capped in this situation, and Geof has 9 levels left with 50% str growth and paragon, so he pulls ahead. In spd, 10/20 Ilyana has ~18 spd, and 10/20 Soren has ~21. Geof at base level has 19, and has 55% growth/KW option/paragon, so again he pulls ahead. Forges don't help, since Geof could also just get a forged silver lance or something, and for Ilyana's case a forged thunder is only 2 more mt than Elthunder anyway. I suppose Ilyana could use something like Thoron (Soren definitely doesn't want A rank tomes), but those have limited uses anyway.

Durability is a complete joke, as well as mobility, so I have no need to touch on them.

So Soren and Ilyana are suckingmassively before promotion, and even if you decide to master seal them early, they are pretty good for awhile, but start to taper off when everyone else starts promoting and durability becomes less of an issue, lessening the need for staves/healing. And then when Geof joins he roflstomps both of them.

Seriously, Geof is good when he's around. Geof is like a second Oscar.

20/11 Oscar

43.85 HP, 20.15 str, lolmag, 21.5 skl, 21.15 spd, 13.1 lck, 19.45 def, 11.1 res

20/11 Geof

43 HP, 18 str, lolmag, 17 skl, 19 spd, 12 lck, 21 def, 9 res

Geof's only problem is his spd is a bit low, but like 250 BEXP with the KW (gives him 2 levels) will give him 20.7 spd (in addition to more str/def/etc), so at that point the only real difference between the two would be Oscar having a bit more att, although Geof levels faster and can get more att if you decide to use Calill. I suppose you could give Oscar that 250 BEXP, or whatever, but that's not the point.

You'll find no argument from me that Soren's earlygame isn't very good, but FE9 is different than most FEs in the sense that lower CEXP can be made up with BEXP. We get a ton of it, even in Hard Mode, and it acts like a normal level up so using it on underleveled units is more efficient. So arguably we could just not use Soren in the earlygame and just BEXP him up a few levels come Ch8, thus avoiding his negative utility for the most part except for the BEXP cost incurred.

What I see is still a negative for Soren. note that Ilyana wouldn't be much better since she's only level 6, halfway through chapter 8.

Edited August 11, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Viceroy]

>Astrid

>High-tier

lolno. l2numbers

[Florete]

>Astrid

>High-tier

lolno. l2numbers

...Wtf are you even trying to say?

In any case, your evidence is amazing, and I find I must agree with you.

[-Cynthia-]

I think he's trying to say Astrid shouldn't be in High tier. His evidence is...I2numbers. I don't know what it is, but I suggest we move Astrid to Low immediately.

Edited August 11, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Tino]

He's saying... learn to numbers... Which makes no sense to me at all.

Whatever.

[Eltoshen]

'Cause Asrid is shit?

I don't know. Seemed pretty obvious what he was trying to say, even though I disagree.

[-Cynthia-]

The thing is, when you say a character is bad, you usually try to back it up with more than "Astrid shouldn't be High tier"(begging the question much?), except less clear.

Also, abot smash's post, I don't know how Rhys gets to 14 while Ilyana and Soren are only level 10. This seems to be a problem in Rhys comparisons, note that Ilyana and Soren are gaining more CEXP than Rhys is SEXP, so Rhys holding a level lead doesn't make much sense IMO.

Edited August 12, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dat Nick]

Easiest explanation: He posted in the tier list for the wrong Tellius game.

[Progenitus]

Also, abot smash's post, I don't know how Rhys gets to 14 while Ilyana and Soren are only level 10. This seems to be a problem in Rhys comparisons, note that Ilyana and Soren are gaining more CEXP than Rhys is SEXP, so Rhys holding a level lead doesn't make much sense IMO.

Rhys gained 10 levels over 7 chapters, while Soren gained 9 over 6, and Ilyana gained 4 over 1.5.

As for exp gains, Rhys gets 11 for heal. Soren gets about the same amount for hitting something, and something like 30ish for killing, but he's not killing very often in earlygame chapters because his defense blows and his offense isn't much better, and he may not even attack every turn because it may be too dangerous for him to do so, while Rhys can heal almost every single turn since he's not required to be near enemies to heal anything.

How is this ridiculous for Rhys?

Anyway, reducing his level by 1 doesn't change much.

[Narga_Rocks]

Also, abot smash's post, I don't know how Rhys gets to 14 while Ilyana and Soren are only level 10. This seems to be a problem in Rhys comparisons, note that Ilyana and Soren are gaining more CEXP than Rhys is SEXP, so Rhys holding a level lead doesn't make much sense IMO.

Rhys gained 10 levels over 7 chapters, while Soren gained 9 over 6, and Ilyana gained 4 over 1.5.

As for exp gains, Rhys gets 11 for heal. Soren gets about the same amount for hitting something, and something like 30ish for killing, but he's not killing very often in earlygame chapters because his defense blows and his offense isn't much better, and he may not even attack every turn because it may be too dangerous for him to do so, while Rhys can heal almost every single turn since he's not required to be near enemies to heal anything.

How is this ridiculous for Rhys?

Anyway, reducing his level by 1 doesn't change much.

11 exp per heal. Needs 1000 exp. 91 x 11 = 1001

91 heals in 7 chapters is not ridiculous for Rhys? Sure, it's only 13 heals per chapter, no problem.

How much bexp is he getting to make this doable?

chapters 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, right?

5 + 4 + 6 + 9 + 11 + 8 + 8 = 51 turns (not much healing to be done in chapter 10, maybe once since we are stealthing, maybe twice, but that likley doesn't begin to cancel the number of times in the first 7 of his chapters that there was nothing to heal), going by max bexp and #of turns in the defend chapters. Where are you getting 91 heals for Rhys? He's missing out on 40 heals, or 440 real exp (well, 439 short, since 91 x 11 = 1001). We don't get access to the base until chapter 8, right? So he's already had 5 + 4 + 6 + 9 + 11 = 35 heals or 385 exp and is level 7 with 85 exp so far. To make the bexp as cheap as possible, we need to dump all the bexp into him now. Also, get him to 99 and then put in 100 at a time to minimize cost. So at level 7 it costs 98 to get 100, so 14 costs 14 since it rounds up. Then we need 100, so that's 98. Then another 100, so that's at level 8 costs and is 100. Then another 100, so that's at level 9 costs and is 103. At level 10 it costs 105. Then we need 26 at level 11 costs. So that's .26 x 108 = 28.08 and the game rounds up, so 29.

14 + 100 + 100 + 100 + 100 + 25 = 439

14 + 98 + 100 + 103 + 105 + 27 = 447 bexp.

So Rhys costs 447 bexp in chapter 8 when we have 1260 max bexp so far. He's taking ~35.5% of our bexp resources at this time. If you give him bexp any later, it costs more than 447 (because his level will be higher before the bexp dump), but the % likely is lower.

Plus, in those 35 turns he has only one heal staff, right? We get a mend at the end of chapter 6, I suppose. So even if you extend the chapters he only gets 5 more heals before we can buy more and only chapter 2 and 4 allow us to gain more than we lose. He gets 11 exp, but we lose 10 bexp per turn and his costs are about at par right now so he cuts his expense by like one so whatever. Come chapters 6 and 7, we lose 20 bexp per turn and he just gains 11/12 exp still, so delaying it will actually make things worse. In chapter 9 we still lose 20 bexp per turn beyond the limit so unless Rhys is level --/4 (he's obviously not) then it costs more bexp to have him heal an extra turn than he'd save bexp by doing it.

(Okay, so he gets an extra 20 exp by breaking the mend staff, but that still means over 420 bexp spent on Rhys, and I think that the torch in chapter 5 is the item not the staff)

Yeah, forgive me if I'm going with Cynthia on this one and calling level 14 at the beginning of chapter 11 a little ridiculous.

Also forgive me for taking a moment to say:

How is this not ridiculous for Rhys?

in response to:

How is this ridiculous for Rhys?

At 200 bexp we reduce his level by 2, not 1. Unless you want to pay >320 bexp for him to be level 13, and somehow heal every single turn and break the mend staff.

Besides, Ilyana starts at level 6. She easily gets 4 levels with that 420 bexp alone. Throw on top of that all the exp from fighting and only 4 levels for her but 10 for Rhys seems nuts.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Progenitus]

Why is Oscar > Kieran?

Both have a ton of durability. Oscar has more, but no one cares, at least after promotion, since neither will be dying anyway. Before promotion, sure.

Kieran has more att, and this lead exists and is relevant for the entire game (at least the last time I crunched numbers for enemies' HP/def, I know Oscar struggles to kill things more than Kieran does), and when he joins he's probably slightly faster too.

[-Cynthia-]

Oscar has earlygame utility before Kieran joins. Sure, he's not the best unit on the team, but that doesn't mean he doesn't acquire positive utility.

Oscar's supports are also better, IkexOscar is an Earth/Earth support that's the fastest in the game, that's pretty good. They cancel each other out, Kieran has an OK Marcia and not so good Rhys(Mov difference), Oscar also has a good Tanith support.

Oscar doesn't have trouble ORKOing post promo if he's using a forge on the enemies that require it(generals, wyverns). Granted, not needing a forge> needing a forge, but it pales in comparison to Oscar's other advantages IMO namely Oscar's contribution before Kieran joins.

Edited August 13, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Progenitus]

Oscar has earlygame utility before Kieran joins. Sure, he's not the best unit on the team, but that doesn't mean he doesn't acquire positive utility.

Oscar loses to Titania/Gatrie/Shinon, probably loses to Boyd too, beats Ike and Soren. That's average. He's only useful for a few chapters, if at all, since we do get Lethe/Mordy as NPCs in chapter 9.

Oscar's supports are also better, IkexOscar is an Earth/Earth support that's the fastest in the game, that's pretty good. They cancel each other out, Kieran has an OK Marcia and not so good Rhys(Mov difference), Oscar also has a good Tanith support.

Oscar and Kieran are each other's best support, so w/e.

Also, Ike has several backup options (Titania/Soren, and if Oscar can wait around until Tanith shows up then he can do the same with Reyson). If Ike doesn't take Oscar he just takes someone else, so Oscar is only replacing an existing support. Kieran x Marcia gives out inferior bonuses, but it's not replacing anything, since Marcia's only other real option is Tanith (lolrolf, gatrie isn't generally played beyond earlygame chapters). Giving out a support that wouldn't even be there vs replacing an existing support with better bonuses

I'm not seeing any sort of gap.

Oscar doesn't have trouble ORKOing post promo if he's using a forge on the enemies that require it(generals, wyverns).

I'm pretty sure Oscar also has trouble 2HKOing things like cavs and fighters, especially if he got str screwed by a point or 2.

Granted, not needing a forge> needing a forge, but it pales in comparison to Oscar's other advantages IMO namely Oscar's contribution before Kieran joins.

Being average is not an advantage.

[-Cynthia-]

Earlygame chapters in all FEs are good examples of why doing average in comparison to the team doesn't always equal neutral utility.

Think about it, Oscar isn't using up a slot, so we can't replace him with someone else, and thus no one can do a better/equal job. I would definitely argue that having Oscar around is more helpful than if he were absent, thus he's acquiring positive utility.

[Colonel M]

In a technical sense Titania is beating everyone. Boyd, Ike, and Oscar duke it out from there. Ike can double so using forges aren't a bad thing, Oscar borderline doubles but at times he pulls of #RKO durability-wise better than the rest of the team and Boyd just has nukish offense. I'd say Oscar > Boyd > Ike though since Ike's earlygame is a little rougher than it's dragged out to be.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

I'm gonna agree that "lol Oscar loses to the most uber earlygame people, he's average" is too much of a generalization. You don't see anybody saying Shinon's earlygame sucks because Titania's better.

All for Kieran>Oscar if it can be proven that Oscar has issues ORKOing, but IIRC the reason why Oscar was moved above Kieran in the first place was because of just that: He didn't have any issues with offense.

Edited August 13, 2009 by Miyamoto Powers

[Progenitus]

First of all, you're forgetting that Gatrie and Shinon are also beating out Oscar. With Titania, that's like half the team already. And then Mordy/Lethe as NPCs in chapter 9 too.

Second, why would Boyd be losing to Oscar? Unless my memory is foggy, there are a lot of lances, which means Boyd closes the durability gap on Oscar. ANd his offense isn't "nukish" at all. It would only be if Oscar is one rounding earlygame as well, and lol @ that happening.

Third, why is okay for Oscar to lose to Titania and everyone brushes that off, yet in FE10 it's bad if the dawn brigade is losing to one or two prepromos? I'm pretty sure the str/spd/def gap between Oscar and Titania in earlygame is about the same (or maybe slightly less) than, say, Aran and Tauroneo in FE10 chapter 1-6.

In any case, even if Oscar's earlygame is a positive for him, it has to be enough to overcome Kieran having far less trouble one rounding post-promotion (or whenever Oscar's durability lead over Kieran becomes worthless and thus can't rely on that). I could pull out enemy stats for you, but I'll have to go to a different computer, so you'll have to wait for a couple of hours.

[Dat Nick]

First of all, you're forgetting that Gatrie and Shinon are also beating out Oscar. With Titania, that's like half the team already. And then Mordy/Lethe as NPCs in chapter 9 too.

Half the team beats him? So what? Those three basically godmode for the time they're around. Undermining Oscar because "the top three guys in the team beat him" is ridiculous. He's clearly performing above average. I mean, this is like saying Eliwood is useless earlygame because half the team beats him.

Third, why is okay for Oscar to lose to Titania and everyone brushes that off, yet in FE10 it's bad if the dawn brigade is losing to one or two prepromos?

imho "omg Zihark isn't beating the Godmoders in part 1, he's nothing special!" is overplayed.

[Progenitus]

Half the team beats him? So what? Those three basically godmode for the time they're around. Undermining Oscar because "the top three guys in the team beat him" is ridiculous. He's clearly performing above average. I mean, this is like saying Eliwood is useless earlygame because half the team beats him.

He loses to three, probably a fourth (Boyd), beats two (Ike, Soren), eventually beats two more (Mia/Ilyana), and then we have Lethe/Mordy as NPCs in chapter 9. Considering that many earlygame chapters don't have many enemies, and you don't really need to go to your... 5th string unit, or whatever Oscar is, how is this good?

But Oscar fights and stuff, huh? Well, whenever he kills, he takes another kill taht could ahve gone to another unit. In other words, his performance earlygame has to make up for taking 9 levels in 7 chapters, where his first two have very few enemies, and two others have time limits which restricts the amount of kills we can get, let alone what Oscar can get. Would a team of, say, level 12 Oscar/Ike/Boyd + a couple other d00ds at chapter 11, with Oscar's help in earlygame chapters, really be better than, say, level 14 Ike/Boyd + a couple of other d00ds with 2 extra levels at chapter 11 but without Oscar's help?

Again, even if Oscar does have positive utility, it needs to be better than Kieran winning offense.

Here's a bunch of enemies in chapter 25, and what level Kieran and Oscar would need to be so they 2HKO. I'm assuming Kieran is supporting Marcia (it doesn't matter who Oscar supports as none of them give att) and they're both using silver axes. I'll assume speed is not an issue other than against SMs due to KW (they both have about the same spd anyway).

3x Cat lv 9-10 (claw)

42 hp, 27 atk, 18 AS, 114 hit, 38 avo, 18 def, 9 res, 8 crit, 2 cev

39 att to 2HKO. Oscar needs to be 20/17, Kieran needs to be 20/11.

1x Hawk lv 12 (beak)

42 hp, 25 atk, 19 AS, 129 hit, 41 avo, 16 def, 9 res, 9 crit, 3 cev

37 att to 2HKO. Oscar needs to be 20/13, Kieran needs to be 20/7.

1x Warrior lv 9 (laguz axe)

49 hp, 32 atk (45 eff), 13 AS, 96 hit, 31 avo, 13 def, 7 res, 6 crit, 5 cev

37.5 att to 2HKO. Oscar needs to be 20/14, Kieran needs to be 20/8.

3x Sniper lv 7 (steel bow, 2 onager)

32 hp, 23 atk, 15 AS, 111 hit, 35 avo, 14 def, 10 res, 24 crit, 5 cev

30 att to 2HKO. Not a passing concern to 2HKO with a silver axe, but with a hand axe (so you can kill these guys on enemy phase), it's a different story. You need 23 str to 2HKO. Oscar doesn't reach that until 20/17, Kieran 20/11.

What I'm seeing are quite a few enemies that Kieran struggles far less to kill than Oscar does.

Oh, but Oscar still 2HKO's a majority of the map, and you'd say that's good enough? So Kieran doesn't have to be the same level anymore. Instead of, say, 20/10 Oscar vs 20/10 Kieran for this map, it can be liek 20/10 Oscar vs 20/4 Kieran, and Kieran's levels go to someone else that actually needs those levels, liek Zihark or Neph or something. Kieran doesn't care about being behind by 6 levels at this point (his att will now be about the same as Oscar's, with a ton of speed because lolknightward, and his only passing concern about durability is that he *might* need sol now, AKA lolwhocareseveryoneelse'smasterysucksanyway).

btw, Eliwood loses to almost everyone in FE7 earlygame. The only guy he's probably better than is Bartre, and even Bartre is probably better once he stops getting doubled.

imho "omg Zihark isn't beating the Godmoders in part 1, he's nothing special!" is overplayed.

Well I'm glad I'm nto the only one who feels like that.

[-Cynthia-]

I think everyone counts Zihark's Part 1 as a positive, he wouldn't be High tier otherwise, because other than that all he has is a fairly crappy Part 3 and an above average(not spectacular due to underlevledness) Part 4.

Oscar "needing more levels" isn't a huge deal, mainly because he's helping the team out in the process, being able to gain levels through CEXP is different than getting BEXP or something. We don't have to favorite Oscar to get him to 20/10, we just have to use him. 20/4 Kieran is running into offensive issues anyway, mostly due to lack of doubling, he only has 18 AS. This won't double the Snipers,Hawks, or Cats mentioned, so Kieran is very arguably losing offense now as well as losing defense. Generally it just makes more sense to give characters appropriate levels and compare them that way then "well if we didn't use Kieran he can have the same Atk as an oscar we used", because when we compare characters we assume usage.

Edited August 14, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Progenitus]

Oscar "needing more levels" isn't a huge deal, mainly because he's helping the team out in the process, being able to gain levels through CEXP is different than getting BEXP or something.

The levels part only cancels out the "helping out the team" if the latter is anything good, or above average, which Oscar rarely, if ever, does so.

And it doesn't really help that most earlygame chapters are short (chapter 5, for example, is only 6 turns), so even if he has a positive, it doesn't last for long.

We don't have to favorite Oscar to get him to 20/10, we just have to use him. 20/4 Kieran is running into offensive issues anyway, mostly due to lack of doubling, he only has 18 AS

lolknightward

losing defense.

He's still damn tanky. His only passing concern is that he might need sol.

Generally it just makes more sense to give characters appropriate levels and compare them that way then "well if we didn't use Kieran he can have the same Atk as an oscar we used", because when we compare characters we assume usage.

yet if Kieran's offense lead at equal levels doesn't mean anything, even though he has that offense lead, then logically that means he CAN be at a lower level and still perform at the same level as Oscar. Or if you want to put it another way, he's far less likely to get RNG screwed, as Oscar who gets RNG screwed in str is sore out of luck, while Kieran who gets str screwed just gets the same offense as Oscar. I know giving units the same kills makes comparisons easier, but it doesn't necessarily mean the comparison is accurate or is the best thing for one of the units in question.

[Dat Nick]

I concede to Kieran>Oscar since the ATK disparity has proven to make a difference, but I still have a bit of an issue with Smash's arguments.

But Oscar fights and stuff, huh? Well, whenever he kills, he takes another kill taht could ahve gone to another unit.

Since when did this ONLY apply to Oscar? It applies for Boyd, it applies to Brom, it applies to Devdan, it applies to Haar...look, it applies to everybody in the game!

He loses to three, probably a fourth (Boyd), beats two (Ike, Soren), eventually beats two more (Mia/Ilyana), and then we have Lethe/Mordy as NPCs in chapter 9.

Beating X Characters and losing to X characters is a terrible way to measure utility, I mean, really. Let's pretend that the only units who exist for a certain timeframe are Titania, Jill, Oscar, and Rolf. Oscar loses to Titania and Jill and only beats Rolf. This would imply that Oscar is below average as he loses to two units and only beats one, but Oscar is anything but due to consistently 2RKOing and never dying, and yet this diagram would show Oscar is below average utility.

btw, Eliwood loses to almost everyone in FE7 earlygame. The only guy he's probably better than is Bartre, and even Bartre is probably better once he stops getting doubled.

Would Lowen be a better example?

Well I'm glad I'm nto the only one who feels like that.

But wait, you disagree with this form of logic, and yet you're using it to argue Oscar down? Seems kind of contradictory if you ask me.

Edited August 14, 2009 by Miyamoto Powers

[Narga_Rocks]

But wait, you disagree with this form of logic, and yet you're using it to argue Oscar down? Seems kind of contradictory if you ask me.

It's smash, did you expect logical consistency? How else would he argue his biases?

Edited August 14, 2009 by Narga_Rocks