tier list

[Progenitus]

The ranking topic in general was made a long time ago, at least relative to how much flaming arguing I've done. People change, and so do their logic and styles of debating (if you noticed, the scores I gave to the characters now don't match up with how the characters are listed in the tier list here). I'm not going to pretend I'm God and say that some things I said in the ranking topic now contradict things I say and believe, but I'm not going to waste my time to revamp it right now outside of a couple of very quick changes, so bite me.

I'm still trying to figure out the correct logic to use for tier lists, since the logic you use determines who is better between the lower tiers (it won't really affect the higher tiers). For example, who is better between Wolt and Treck? In one view (in my topic I linked, method 1, which is 100% efficiency playthrough), Wolt is better because he's forced in several earlygame chapters and then can be dropped forever, while Treck is always going to be taking a slot on the team, and since he's not one of the best units for those slots he's always going to be negative utility.

Yet in another view (method 2, which is the entire game), Treck is better because he's not utter garbage when they're both being trained as a serious member of the team.

So which method is better? Choosing the second method here just makes more sense. But in some matchups the first method is the one that makes sense (for example, something like Marcus vs Eliwood). At this point it doesn't feel like absolute consistency. There has to be some sort of middle ground, some style of logic that can answer both Treck > Wolt and Marcus > Eliwood.

Of course I don't actually expect any input from people like you, who are hellbent on trying to prove me wrong rather than make an accurate tier list (as evident by the fact that tons of people here, including you, are constantly posting despite me obviously ignoring their trolling. Anyone on a quest to make an accurate tier list would've already left; anyone on a quest to just prove me wrong has obviously stuck around).

[Narga_Rocks]

The ranking topic in general was made a long time ago, at least relative to how much flaming arguing I've done. People change, and so do their logic and styles of debating (if you noticed, the scores I gave to the characters now don't match up with how the characters are listed in the tier list here). I'm not going to pretend I'm God and say that some things I said in the ranking topic now contradict things I say and believe, but I'm not going to waste my time to revamp it right now outside of a couple of very quick changes, so bite me.

That's fair. I'm not actually asking you to revamp it like what Colonel M is doing with his in fe11. I would ask what you are doing here, though. What about Tormod in part 4? Does Tormod care about part 4?

I'm still trying to figure out the correct logic to use for tier lists, since the logic you use determines who is better between the lower tiers (it won't really affect the higher tiers). For example, who is better between Wolt and Treck? In one view (in my topic I linked, method 1, which is 100% efficiency playthrough), Wolt is better because he's forced in several earlygame chapters and then can be dropped forever, while Treck is always going to be taking a slot on the team, and since he's not one of the best units for those slots he's always going to be negative utility.

Yet in another view (method 2, which is the entire game), Treck is better because he's not utter garbage when they're both being trained as a serious member of the team.

There really isn't a correct "logic" to use. The placements are defined by the rules you set up for the tier list. Or at least, they are supposed to be. You can just choose whatever you want, or something in between. Set up a rule that can be applied consistently throughout the tier list and then apply it consistently. Whatever rule you choose has the potential of setting up placements you don't like. Maybe Lehran has to drop under some rule. Maybe Sanaki must rise. Maybe some other unit takes a nose-dive or another hops on a rocket. Life happens. The idea behind a tier list is to place the units under a guideline, or logic, or rule. Whatever you must call it. Sometimes the consequences suck.

So which method is better? Choosing the second method here just makes more sense. But in some matchups the first method is the one that makes sense (for example, something like Marcus vs Eliwood). At this point it doesn't feel like absolute consistency. There has to be some sort of middle ground, some style of logic that can answer both Treck > Wolt and Marcus > Eliwood.

This is what I'm saying. You don't have to create rules that result in the unit placements you desire. Pick the rule you feel best describes what a tier list should be to you, then live with whatever placements result. I can't really help you with creating a rule that results in what you want. It might exist, but I haven't really thought about it too much. I suspect that the rule would be quite wordy, however, if you wanted the rule to be capable of being applied consistently throughout a list and still get what you want.

Of course I don't actually expect any input from people like you, who are hellbent on trying to prove me wrong rather than make an accurate tier list (as evident by the fact that tons of people here, including you, are constantly posting despite me obviously ignoring their trolling. Anyone on a quest to make an accurate tier list would've already left; anyone on a quest to just prove me wrong has obviously stuck around).

If you set up rules and then don't follow them (in my opinion) of course I'm going to attempt to "prove you wrong". My interpretation of my actions is more try to convince you to stick with the rules you created rather than "prove you wrong".

Also, you have a bit of False Dichotomy going on here. There are more options than simply "make accurate tier list" and "quest to prove smash wrong". There is also "nothing better to do". Some people just really like arguing about unit placements in a tier list, whatever the tier list. There is a reason that multiple people here that dislike ranks are arguing in the fe7 ranked tier list, and I doubt it's because they enjoy butting heads with Inui. I'm not going to claim to know what their reason actually is, but I'd almost be willing to put money on the idea that they aren't there to argue with Inui.

[Progenitus]

The problem is I have issues with BOTH rules, so I'm obviously not going to stick to one of them if I don't like them and then build a tier list based on rules I don't like. I'm trying to look for something that makes more sense.

[Narga_Rocks]

The problem is I have issues with BOTH rules, so I'm obviously not going to stick to one of them if I don't like them and then build a tier list based on rules I don't like. I'm trying to look for something that makes more sense.

True, if you are going to make a tier list you might as well pick rules you can live with. I'll think on this more, since I don't have anything for you right now.

[Progenitus]

Advertising this topic about the logic to use in debaets

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=19265&pid=878013&st=0entry878013

I'm hoping, after that topic resolves, there will be a clearly defined outline to ranking units for not only this game, but for any other game.

[Anouleth]

Well, on that basis, I'd like to claim Kieran>Geoffrey. If we're rating them on their performance over the whole game, then obviously Kieran is better - better speed, better attack and durability, more availability, and eventually better Endgame weapons.

Unless Kieran's bad enough in 3-11 to 4-4 that he constitutes 'negative utility'.

[nflchamp]

Well, on that basis, I'd like to claim Kieran>Geoffrey. If we're rating them on their performance over the whole game, then obviously Kieran is better - better speed, better attack and durability, more availability, and eventually better Endgame weapons.

Unless Kieran's bad enough in 3-11 to 4-4 that he constitutes 'negative utility'.

If you're not one of the best X members of the team, where X is the number of unit slots available, you're negative in smash's mind. It's the only thing I don't care for with smash's +/- utility.

[soundecho]

If you're not one of the best X members of the team, where X is the number of unit slots available, you're negative in smash's mind. It's the only thing I don't care for with smash's +/- utility.

So? Unless you go by the premise, if your not first your last, there's nothing wrong.

[Florete]

Even with differing ideas of utility, I can't see how Geoffrey > Kieran at all. They are practically equal in their shared maps (same Spd, similar atk) and Kieran has more availability to make himself overall better than Geoffrey. Slap Paragon on him in 3-9 and even though he won't be amazing, he'll still be decent for 3-11 and the rest of the game, while Geoffrey is SOL.

[Interceptor]

Yeah, but therein lies the rub: Kieran's not getting Paragon, owing to rule #2 in this list. He's also taking up a slot in 3-11 and beyond.

[nflchamp]

So? Unless you go by the premise, if your not first your last, there's nothing wrong.

+/- utility

Smash didn't agree with it then, he won't agree with it now. I'm still of the opinion that it's accurate.

[-Cynthia-]

I think that the Brave Lance makes a fair amount of difference to put Geoffrey> Kieran for 2-3 and 3-9. I would say that Kieran is

better though, much easier to make him into a decent 4-E unit with 3 more chapters of availability.

smash's list has weird rules, so I don't know how that would work.

[soundecho]

wait, nvm. can someone delete this post?

Edited March 3, 2010 by soundecho

[Inference]

Makalov shouldn't be below Kieran. Their availability is the same and he exceeds Kieran statistically by far.

[Ether]

Makalov shouldn't be below Kieran. Their availability is the same and he exceeds Kieran statistically by far.

Uhh...how?Even if they promoted at the same time,Keiran has more Str/HP,and Makalov's spd lead isn't enough to double outside of Micaiah's route,but lolPaladins in Desert.

[Progenitus]

If you're not one of the best X members of the team, where X is the number of unit slots available, you're negative in smash's mind. It's the only thing I don't care for with smash's +/- utility.

Not necessarily. you don't have to be within the top X or else you're SOL. You can be a few slots below and still be at least neutral or maybe even positive. This is because you can't always assume that the top X units will always have better stats and such due to the RNG. For example, it's completely likely that someone like Alan in FE6 to get RNG screwed and dropped from the team, while someone like Lott gets RNG blessed and makes the team.

(The amount of units you can be worse than and still be positive/neutral depends on the team size. If team size is, say, 4, then being 6th best is not nearly as good as if you had a team of 10 and you were 12th best. The more units that are on the team, the greater the cahnce that someone will get RNG screwed and sucky and dropped. It also depends on how many units are RNG proof, such as this game throwing multiple RNG proof royals at you for 4-E).

On the subject of Geof vs Kieran, yeah, brave lance helps Geof a lot in CRK chapters, although Marcia/Danved can use it (much less effectively though, but still possible). Kieran's far more likely to get one of the two paragons or adept though, since we all know throwing a skill on Geof for 3-9 is retarded. Kieran has some potential outside of CRK chapters, but he needs to have some noticeable RNG blessing for this to be significant, since the other GMs are just so much stronger than him. I haven't looked at stats, but I'm pretty sure he won't even match up to Boyd, who's barely scraping by. Also, it's rather hard for Kieran to get RNG blessed in the first place because his terrible caps hinder that.

Mak is definitely better than Kieran outside of CRK chatpers, but the problem is taht mak is going to need paragon in 3-11 and 3-E as well as an early crown (otherwise he spends too much time sitting at his 2nd tier spd cap) to double, and his str is still bad. He may even need paragon in his first part 4 chapter, which is pretty bad. That's too much effort when you consider that a bare bones Kieran will beat out Mak in CRK chapters and Mak won't even get a significant spd lead until part 4 (his base IS 2 lower). It's only 2 real chapters (they don't exist long enough in 2-E to do anything big, which leaves 2-3 and 3-9), but they only have 6 chapters before 4-E, so liek 8 total since each 4-E part isn't long enough to count as a single chapter. That's 1/4th of their availability right there, and then Mak isn't really winning, if at all, in 3-11 and 3-E.

[Redthir Jerdisheim]

Alright. I copied the tier list so that I could refer to it.

Kamina

Haar

Reyson

Ike

Volug

Top

Titania

Janaff

Rafiel

Zihark

Nolan

Ulki

Gatrie

Sothe

Leanne

Nailah

High

Shinon

Mordecai

Mia

Tibarn

Oscar

Micaiah

Aran

Laura

Ranulf

Upper Mid

Tauroneo

Naesala

Caineghis

Giffca

Skrimir

Elincia

Jill

Nephenee

Mist

Rhys

Muarim

Boyd

Brom

Heather

Nasir

Lower Mid

Lehran

Tormod

Nealuchi

Geoffrey

Kieran

Vika

Soren

Volke

Stefan

Lucia

Marcia

Calill

Danved

Makalov

Leonardo

Low

Tanith

Edward

Ena

Gareth

Kurthnaga

Ilyana

Rolf

Sigrun

Sanaki

Bastian

Oliver

Bottom

Renning

Kyza

Lethe

Pelleas

Meg

Unholy Trinity

Lyre

Astrid

Fiona

Oliver has absolutely no use as a unit whatsoever. His bases are awful and his growths aren't much better (everything is below 50 except Strength, which Oliver really doesn't need). He gets doubled by basically anything he comes into contact with and 18 defence just makes him downright prone to death. On top of that, you can lose out on a valuable level up. His staff can just be stolen. I would put him at the very bottom of the bottom tier. His affinity is neither good nor bad, and you only have the Endgame to use him in.

Zihark is a very mediocre unit that definitely doesn't deserve Top tier. Edward and Mia outclass him in all areas except maybe Skill and Speed, but Edward and Mia usually max out both stats anyway, as well as Strength and Defence, both of which Zihark is average in. Edward is very difficult to train so I can see why you might want Zihark instead, but there is no reason to place him over Mia apart from better caps. Zihark is less likely to hit them though, and the only difference is +1 Strength and Defence.

Low tier looked questionable from a glance.

Tanith - I never used her. However, she starts with stats that lie between mediocre and crap. I'm told she has low caps.

Edward - Shouldn't be in Low tier. Lower Mid I could understand, but Low is just ridiculous. He usually ends up as one of the best units in the game. On my current playthrough he is a Level 2 Swordmaster with 16 Defence. I cheated with Bonus Experience, but he capped enough stats to put Defence into effect on BEXP. I will admit his early gameplay is HORRIBLE.

Ena - I could agree with this. Blood Tide and Boon are her only uses.

Gareth - Should be even lower. I can't think of anything that might make him useful unless you're mad about Blood Tide.

Kurthnaga - Should be higher. He's underleveled, but he's actually very useful especially against White Dragons in 4-E-3 who you want to one shot as often as possible.

Ilyana - I found her to be surprisingly good. She does have the problem of switching teams though.

Rolf - One of my favourite units! Have you seen has bases? 19 Str, 20 Skill and 19 Speed are very high for a Level 1 Sniper. He's the best contender for the double bow. He has always capped Strength and Speed and with the Double Bow I can't think of anything that he can't ORKO besides Ashera and Deghinsea. He's not even especially difficult to level, at least not for me.

Sigrun - I could agree with this.

Sanaki - She's screwed over by her bases. If she started at a lower level, she would be a candidate for best unit in the game (She seems to get 7 stat level ups half of the time).

Bastian - Haven't really used him. He is useful against Feral Ones though.

Oliver - Move him down. Below Unholy Trinity!

[Sinned]

Alright. I copied the tier list so that I could refer to it.

Kamina

Haar

Reyson

Ike

Volug

Top

Titania

Janaff

Rafiel

Zihark

Nolan

Ulki

Gatrie

Sothe

Leanne

Nailah

High

Shinon

Mordecai

Mia

Tibarn

Oscar

Micaiah

Aran

Laura

Ranulf

Upper Mid

Tauroneo

Naesala

Caineghis

Giffca

Skrimir

Elincia

Jill

Nephenee

Mist

Rhys

Muarim

Boyd

Brom

Heather

Nasir

Lower Mid

Lehran

Tormod

Nealuchi

Geoffrey

Kieran

Vika

Soren

Volke

Stefan

Lucia

Marcia

Calill

Danved

Makalov

Leonardo

Low

Tanith

Edward

Ena

Gareth

Kurthnaga

Ilyana

Rolf

Sigrun

Sanaki

Bastian

Oliver

Bottom

Renning

Kyza

Lethe

Pelleas

Meg

Unholy Trinity

Lyre

Astrid

Fiona

Oliver has absolutely no use as a unit whatsoever. His bases are awful and his growths aren't much better (everything is below 50 except Strength, which Oliver really doesn't need). He gets doubled by basically anything he comes into contact with and 18 defence just makes him downright prone to death. On top of that, you can lose out on a valuable level up. His staff can just be stolen. I would put him at the very bottom of the bottom tier. His affinity is neither good nor bad, and you only have the Endgame to use him in.

Zihark is a very mediocre unit that definitely doesn't deserve Top tier. Edward and Mia outclass him in all areas except maybe Skill and Speed, but Edward and Mia usually max out both stats anyway, as well as Strength and Defence, both of which Zihark is average in. Edward is very difficult to train so I can see why you might want Zihark instead, but there is no reason to place him over Mia apart from better caps. Zihark is less likely to hit them though, and the only difference is +1 Strength and Defence.

Low tier looked questionable from a glance.

Tanith - I never used her. However, she starts with stats that lie between mediocre and crap. I'm told she has low caps.

Edward - Shouldn't be in Low tier. Lower Mid I could understand, but Low is just ridiculous. He usually ends up as one of the best units in the game. On my current playthrough he is a Level 2 Swordmaster with 16 Defence. I cheated with Bonus Experience, but he capped enough stats to put Defence into effect on BEXP. I will admit his early gameplay is HORRIBLE.

Ena - I could agree with this. Blood Tide and Boon are her only uses.

Gareth - Should be even lower. I can't think of anything that might make him useful unless you're mad about Blood Tide.

Kurthnaga - Should be higher. He's underleveled, but he's actually very useful especially against White Dragons in 4-E-3 who you want to one shot as often as possible.

Ilyana - I found her to be surprisingly good. She does have the problem of switching teams though.

Rolf - One of my favourite units! Have you seen has bases? 19 Str, 20 Skill and 19 Speed are very high for a Level 1 Sniper. He's the best contender for the double bow. He has always capped Strength and Speed and with the Double Bow I can't think of anything that he can't ORKO besides Ashera and Deghinsea. He's not even especially difficult to level, at least not for me.

Sigrun - I could agree with this.

Sanaki - She's screwed over by her bases. If she started at a lower level, she would be a candidate for best unit in the game (She seems to get 7 stat level ups half of the time).

Bastian - Haven't really used him. He is useful against Feral Ones though.

Oliver - Move him down. Below Unholy Trinity!

Training Edward is silly, especially on hard mode. The logic behind this is the fact that you're better off using Zihark who comes in promoted with great stats already in 1-6. Your Edward won't even promote until 1-e at the earliest. Of course his stats are better than Zihark if u can train him. But that means nothing really because the amount of effort you put into him is highly 'inefficient' and rather pointless when discussing the tier list.

[Progenitus]

Oliver has absolutely no use as a unit whatsoever. His bases are awful and his growths aren't much better (everything is below 50 except Strength, which Oliver really doesn't need). He gets doubled by basically anything he comes into contact with and 18 defence just makes him downright prone to death. On top of that, you can lose out on a valuable level up. His staff can just be stolen. I would put him at the very bottom of the bottom tier. His affinity is neither good nor bad, and you only have the Endgame to use him in.

He's a backup healer which is better than someone like Renning being one of your worst fighters possible.

Zihark is a very mediocre unit that definitely doesn't deserve Top tier. Edward and Mia outclass him in all areas except maybe Skill and Speed, but Edward and Mia usually max out both stats anyway, as well as Strength and Defence, both of which Zihark is average in. Edward is very difficult to train so I can see why you might want Zihark instead, but there is no reason to place him over Mia apart from better caps. Zihark is less likely to hit them though, and the only difference is +1 Strength and Defence.

I'm not touching zihark vs mia with a 10 foot pole again, so if you want to see a recent argument go in full circle...

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/genmessage.php?board=932999&topic=53510935

Edward - Shouldn't be in Low tier. Lower Mid I could understand, but Low is just ridiculous. He usually ends up as one of the best units in the game. On my current playthrough he is a Level 2 Swordmaster with 16 Defence. I cheated with Bonus Experience, but he capped enough stats to put Defence into effect on BEXP. I will admit his early gameplay is HORRIBLE.

His terrible performance in DB chapters doesn't come close to justifying his part 4, especially when it's not even THAT good (poor durability).

Gareth - Should be even lower. I can't think of anything that might make him useful unless you're mad about Blood Tide.

Blood tide is nice against auras, and against spirits he OHKOs if they're not on cover.

Kurthnaga - Should be higher. He's underleveled, but he's actually very useful especially against White Dragons in 4-E-3 who you want to one shot as often as possible.

The only thing he does is act as a road block in 4-E-3 and give out +5 def/res in that map; his stats otherwise are garbage and putting him near enemies that attack him will just get him killed, since 20 base AS means he's doubled by basically everything.

Ilyana - I found her to be surprisingly good. She does have the problem of switching teams though.

lolwut. When ilyana rejoins in part 3 she's contending with Lyre for the WORST UNIT IN THE TEAM. Her current tier position is literally based on her performance from 1-3 to 1-5 or 1-6.

Rolf - One of my favourite units! Have you seen has bases? 19 Str, 20 Skill and 19 Speed are very high for a Level 1 Sniper. He's the best contender for the double bow. He has always capped Strength and Speed and with the Double Bow I can't think of anything that he can't ORKO besides Ashera and Deghinsea. He's not even especially difficult to level, at least not for me.

First off, it's 17 str.

Second off, he does like 5-10 damage and doesn't double and gets 2HKO'd in return and can't even have the decency to counter at 1-range (crossbow is better in Shinon's hands) and has the worst affinity in the game.

Yeah, he may not be hard to level. That's because GM chapters are freaking easy. But that doesn't matter. Using Rolf means you can't use as many other underleveled units. For example, you can't use Rolf, Boyd, and Soren at the same time. GMs don't have that many resources at hand. Rolf especially is very needy. Hey, his level 1 base which you seem to think is good for him? It means he's not promoting until liek 4-E unless you use a master crown on him PLUS feed him tons of kills, because his 5-10 damage and not doubling and sucky tanking means he's not getting kills normally, unlike someone such as Ike or Titania. At least for someone like Soren he's doing around 20 damage so it's more natural for him to get kills.

Sanaki - She's screwed over by her bases. If she started at a lower level, she would be a candidate for best unit in the game (She seems to get 7 stat level ups half of the time).

I hate to use this phrase, but, PEMN.

[Progenitus]

updated OP with newer rules

[Mekkah]

- Units are based on whose absence hurts the team the most. For example, in a Haar vs Ike comparison, the winner is which team becomes weaker when the unit is not used.

Then I'd say a team where Ike is not used is a whole lot weaker than a team where Reyson is not used. Reyson is in less chapters to begin with (Ike has five more chapters to start part 3 with, and Reyson is not in 3-11), and Ike is a significant part of your offense if you deprive people of their resources, or only give them a small amount, e.g. your only doublers are like Shinon and Mia, and Mia might only have been given one or two of Ike support/critforge/Adept/Vantage/etc so she probably isn't ORKOing everything left and right. Which also makes the team worse overall, which makes Ike stand out more since he is good with resources regardless. Reyson relies on a good team overall to fill his pwn meter, Ike just needs not to be RNG screwed. He also uses no unit slots which I guess is a resource but I don't think you care much so bleh.

Then in part 4 the Greil Army gets a lot more out of Ike than the Hawk army does out of Tibarn. Both of Ike's maps are rout while one of Reyson's is bosskill (which he helps to set up, but it is still much shorter and easier), and 4-4 is the chapter where Ike's combat stands out perhaps the most (plus it helps out whoever he supports a lot).

Reyson might not even be in endgame because of Rafiel.

And of course, there's the strict definition of the rules which, in the way it's worded, would also make us take into account Ike vs BK/Ashera. But since you like to treat that as a storyline event or w/e, we can disregard that.

[Florete]

Reyson relies on a good team overall to fill his pwn meter, Ike just needs not to be RNG screwed.

I don't really care about Ike vs Reyson, but I don't agree with this statement at all. I'd say if the team sucks overall that would make Reyson even better, since if they're already awesome anyway the need for a Heron probably wouldn't be too high. If the team sucks, four of them getting another turn is probably worth a lot more than if they are already awesome and able to be thrown into a horde of enemies.

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't really care about Ike vs Reyson, but I don't agree with this statement at all. I'd say if the team sucks overall that would make Reyson even better, since if they're already awesome anyway the need for a Heron probably wouldn't be too high. If the team sucks, four of them getting another turn is probably worth a lot more than if they are already awesome and able to be thrown into a horde of enemies.

It depends. Reyson's perfect team needs to be full of good units, but not good enough that he has no effect on turncount. If you team is so amazing that they can obliterate on enemy phase and they are able to move fast enough that Reyson doesn't help out there, then sure he isn't doing much.

If your squad is full of units like Lyre then I doubt that Reyson is as good.

[Florete]

If your squad is full of units like Lyre then I doubt that Reyson is as good.

If that's the case, everyone on your team is averaging ~5HKOs without a double (assuming no resources). If you assume an 8 man team, that's 1.6 enemies dead every player phase assuming no enemy phase (because their durability sucks too much and to keep things simple for now). Reyson turns that into 2.4, or anywhere between 1.6 and 2.4 but with more chances to be healed and better positioning abilities. I'd say Reyson is still helping quite a bit.

In fact, if you look at it as having 8 Lyre's + Reyson, Reyson has 15 more avoid, 7 less HP, and only 2 less Defense. He can semi-dodge tank for them at high Biorythm or something.

EDIT: Then I remembered you can't have more than 4 Lyre's attack one enemy. Bleh. I'm sure there's a way for Reyson to still be very helpful, I just don't feel like thinking of it right now.

Edited March 21, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[Narga_Rocks]

If that's the case, everyone on your team is averaging ~5HKOs without a double (assuming no resources). If you assume an 8 man team, that's 1.6 enemies dead every player phase assuming no enemy phase (because their durability sucks too much and to keep things simple for now). Reyson turns that into 2.4, or anywhere between 1.6 and 2.4 but with more chances to be healed and better positioning abilities. I'd say Reyson is still helping quite a bit.

In fact, if you look at it as having 8 Lyre's + Reyson, Reyson has 15 more avoid, 7 less HP, and only 2 less Defense. He can semi-dodge tank for them at high Biorythm or something.

EDIT: Then I remembered you can't have more than 4 Lyre's attack one enemy. Bleh. I'm sure there's a way for Reyson to still be very helpful, I just don't feel like thinking of it right now.

He's never not helpful at all. I just think his utility curve maxes in the middle (if you make your x axis the "goodness" of the team). He's at his most effective, or most important, not at the extremes but somewhere in the middle. I'm not entirely sure precisely what Reyson's best team is in terms of maximizing his value, though.