Enemies spawn

[Florete]

As an experienced FE player, you should know that Ambush Spawning WILL happen on Hard mode and up. No matter how much you call it BS, as an "experienced" player, you should know that. It's standard for Hard Mode.

Allow me to point out that anyone who has only played the localized FE games (7-11) would not know this as ambush spawning never existed until now. And unless it's from FE12, I don't know where this idea of ambush spawning being specific to the difficulty setting is coming from, as I have literally never seen that before.

And either way, the implementation of it can still be bad. It's manageable in parts of the game, but fake difficulty in others.

[Constable Reggie]

IIRC, there's ambush spawning in Fe7's hard modes, and probably some other english Fe's. But at least in those games, they're not spawning several falcoknights around you/several strong enemies right next to you with no good indication.

[nocturnal YL]

I never said ambush spawning in itself is a bad thing. The way Awakening handles it in certain chapters, however, is. Most other Fe's make it fairly obvious or managable where the enemies are going to come from. Awakening's certain chapters do not.

In some chapters (up to even Chapter 10 IIRC), the enemy boss warns about where will the reinforcement come from (the forts). In other chapters, the boss would vague say that reinforcements do exist (chapter 7, for example; although in this case you should know that they'll show up next to the players, given the story). In both cases you really should be prepared for them. Lack of information is itself a form of legitimate challenge, and in this case I don't think it's worse than, say, not showing the enemy movement range in FE10 Maniac (Overseas Hard).

Besides (although I know this isn't your point), if you screw up, it only costs you less than half an hour of wasted play time, which is nothing for an FE veteran.

Edited February 16, 2013 by nocturnal YL

[Florete]

IIRC, there's ambush spawning in Fe7's hard modes, and probably some other english Fe's. But at least in those games, they're not spawning several falcoknights around you/several strong enemies right next to you with no good indication.

There actually were some in Lyn mode chapters and there might have been some in early Eliwood/Hector maps (I do remember them existing in Ch 14, but not in any particularly dangerous place), but not later, and not unique to any difficulty setting. I distinctly remember both versions of chapter 15 in FE7 not having it, and I can't think of a situation after that where it comes back.

[Paperblade]

Please read 47948201's post.

@shadowofchaos they don't tell you that in the later chapters. That was my point.

Yes they do. They tell you in every single chapter and in every chapter except for the Falcos in 16 and 25, they show up in very obvious locations (stairs/forts).

Also FE11 did have ambush spawning, and some chapters in FE7 had enemies spawn as soon as you moved to a certain area in a couple chapters.

[PKL]

I think they show up one turn after the reinforcements from the bottom of the stage, if you happened to see those, and they show up two turns or so after the boss announces them. There are (iirc, because its been a couple days) six reinforcements that cover well over half of the traversible squares. I got burned on my first attempt and on my second I managed it, but my efficiency is probably pretty bad.

I didnt even see those lol. Even in my "casual" run I 2 turned the map.

[Constable Reggie]

Lack of information is itself a form of legitimate challenge, and in this case I don't think it's worse than, say, not showing the enemy movement range in FE10 Maniac (Overseas Hard).

Ironic since people though taking away the enemy movement was a terrible way to make the game harder.

Yes they do. They tell you in every single chapter and in every chapter except for the Falcos in 16 and 25, they show up in very obvious locations (stairs/forts).

So you agree that the FalcoKnights spawning all around you and the blatantly ridiculous ch25 spawning (which they never mention) is ridiculous. Because that was my point, that ambush spawning is used pretty well in this game, but then they sometimes throw bullshit versions of it at you for no reason. There's probably some other examples of terrible ambush spawning in the game, but I can't really remember the chapters well enough.

I didnt even see those lol. Even in my "casual" run I 2 turned the map.

Person who beats every map as quick as possible and probably never encountered most reinforcements = best person to debate ambush spawning

Edited February 16, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Paperblade]

The Falcos are dumb but nothing else is a huge deal because the game telegraphs their existence ahead of time

Reinforcements:

Ch. 5: Gangrel mentions their existence before chapter starts, all come from forts

Ch. 7: Boss mentions their existence, come from behind you as mentioned

Ch. 9: Boss mentions their existence, come from behind you as mentioned and from forts

Ch. 10: Boss mentions their existence, all come from forts

Ch. 11: Boss mentions their existence, either come from the other end of the map (wyverns) or from forts

Ch. 13: Character mentions their existence iirc, all come from forts

Ch. 14: Boss mentions their existence iirc, come from edges of the map

Ch. 16: Boss mentions their existence, come from behind you (which iirc was mentioned) or are the Falcos, which are the only thing I would argue is BS

Ch. 17: Say'ri mentions their existence, all come from stairs

Ch. 19: Boss mentions their existence, come from forts

Ch. 20: Enemy mentions their existence, all come from hallways behind you

Ch. 21: Enemy mentions their existence, all come from stairs

Ch. 23: Boss mentions their existence, all come from stairs

Ch. 24: Don't recall if mentioned, but they all come from forts

Ch. 25: Don't think they're mentioned, but they all come from forts or edges of the map

Final: Reinforcements explicitly mentioned to be infinite and their spawn points are obvious

All the Paralogues I remember having reinforcements (Morgan, Severa, Kjelle, Laurent, Gerome, Tiki) have them spawning at the edge of the map or from stairs (also Tiki's have special AI so yeah)

So:

Watch stairs

Watch forts

Watch edge of the map, especially your starting point.

[zahlman]

When do the Chapter 25 reinforcements show up? I remember having trouble with the pegs on 16, but nothing of note on 25.

Final: Reinforcements explicitly mentioned to be infinite

I missed the cue for this? But their density drops by a lot, so it's definitely viable to take out the initial wave and then walk people around, if you can't finish by turn 2 PP.

Edited February 16, 2013 by zahlman

[riariadne]

So you agree that the FalcoKnights spawning all around you and the blatantly ridiculous ch25 spawning (which they never mention) is ridiculous

It's the second to last chapter of the game. It's not supposed to be a cakewalk.

FE13 is actually really generous about ambush spawning. They usually give you two turns of warning, and as already mentioned they're always in pretty easy to guess locations. It's definitely nicer about it than old games, and I enjoyed it.

[Constable Reggie]

It's not supposed to be trial and error either. They literally spawn 3 powerful units (some with silver bows iirc) right next to you in a couple of turns, on both sides.

but they all come from forts or edges of the map

There are no forts and the edges of the map are literally right next to you.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Paperblade]

I missed the cue for this? But their density drops by a lot, so it's definitely viable to take out the initial wave and then walk people around, if you can't finish by turn 2 PP.

When you approach Grima/kill an enemy surrounding Grima (not sure which exactly), Naga goes "Grima's servants will beset you to no end! Dispatch him as soon as you are able!" which reads to me as a fancy way of saying "Just kill Grima the reinforcements don't stop"

Also Ch. 25 most definitely does have Forts but I don't recall if reinforcements spawn from it and the map is pretty huge at 27x29.

[Constable Reggie]

My bad, I meant forts in the way it's usually used in Fe titles (reinforcement spawns) and not the Fe13 version where it's only used for cover. I don't think any enemy spawns from forts in fe13.

*Actually, I think I remember very few instances where they do, but generally they're pretty harmless

Edited February 16, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[eclipse]

To clarify FE11: If you played H1 or up, you get ambush spawned. Chapter 7 is a good example, because it's near-impossible to dodge them. The most frustrating FE11 chapter with spawns is 23, because there's no indication of where they'll come from, and Thoron Bishops are not fun to fight.

I didn't much care for Chapter 24's spawning, because of the sheer number of forts littered around the map. I also didn't care for those Falcoknights, but that seems to be the game's way of saying "move it to the boss and kill him to end the chapter".

[Ciaran]

Reinforcements always come from forts or stairwells if they aren't announced except in, I think, two or three maps. And in those the reinforcements that come from the side and aren't announced are flying units that, unless you had one of your own perched alone on the area they appear in are unlikely to be capable of acting. It's frustrating, but most of the time if you lose a character to it it's your own damn fault for not noting potential spawn points correctly.

[Constable Reggie]

You mind telling me how 4 falcoknights who are able to basically reach the majority of the map, or enemies that spawn on the sides that are right next to you "unlikely to be capable of acting"?

[nocturnal YL]

Not to pick a fight, it's just... I believe ambush reinforcement isn't that much of a bad feature, and certainly isn't bad in FE13. After many surprises (and resets) in FE12, FE13 feels like nothing. I actually thought the way the enemies announce their coming is ridiculous, since that in a way defeats the purpose of ambush reinforcement.

So you agree that the FalcoKnights spawning all around you and the blatantly ridiculous ch25 spawning (which they never mention) is ridiculous.

IIRC, Naga did warn you to hurry up in that chapter, unless that piece of info is localized out.

Person who beats every map as quick as possible and probably never encountered most reinforcements = best person to debate ambush spawning

They're also the best people to show that avoiding reinforcements is entirely possible and it's entirely within your power to avoid those unfair (as you may say) reinforcements if you hate them so much.

My bad, I meant forts in the way it's usually used in Fe titles (reinforcement spawns) and not the Fe13 version where it's only used for cover. I don't think any enemy spawns from forts in fe13.

....They do, and they do that quite often too. Chapter 5, Chapter 10, Chapter 11, Paralogue 11, Chapter 19 and Chapter 24. There may be more that I don't know.

[Constable Reggie]

IIRC, Naga did warn you to hurry up in that chapter, unless that piece of info is localized out.

Because an overtly vague quote (that could entirely not even indicate enemy spawn and just be story related) clearly indicates when or where enemies are going to spawn.

I don't even remember that quote at all (unlike most of the actual ambush spawn quotes), but if it's there, it still doesn't negate the fact that there's no indication whatsoever of where the enemies are going to spawn.

They're also the best people to show that avoiding reinforcements is entirely possible and it's entirely within your power to avoid those unfair (as you may say) reinforcements if you hate them so much.

All it does is point out that they never even experienced the ambush spawning they're arguing about. Deliberately bypassing the chapter does not excuse bad ambush spawning design.

....They do, and they do that quite often too. Chapter 5, Chapter 10, Chapter 11, Paralogue 11, Chapter 19 and Chapter 24. There may be more that I don't know.

Nice job ignoring my edit where I explicitly said I was wrong. They do spawn from forts from time to time, but it's not nearly as often as other Fe games.

[nocturnal YL]

Nice job ignoring my edit where I explicitly said I was wrong. They do spawn from forts from time to time, but it's not nearly as often as other Fe games.

I apologize for not reloading the page often enough then.

I do get your other points, although I've nothing to reply to those.

Edited February 17, 2013 by nocturnal YL

[PKL]

All it does is point out that they never even experienced the ambush spawning they're arguing about. Deliberately bypassing the chapter does not excuse bad ambush spawning design.

Have you perhaps thought that some of these "behind you" reinforcements are there to prevent going too slow? And I didnt bypass all the reinforcements, it was just that particular chapter. I stated in another post that I would often take precaution in my first run and would block forts with some units, sometimes stairs.

[PuffPuff]

I stated in another post that I would often take precaution in my first run and would block forts with some units, sometimes stairs.

On Lunatic, I believe has them come out of them still even if you block the forts.

[arvilino]

On Lunatic, I believe has them come out of them still even if you block the forts.

I don't think that's the case, I'm pretty certain both Forts and Staircase reinforcements can be blocked off on Lunatic. Unless there's an exception in a chapter I'm not thinking of.

[Othin]

Because an overtly vague quote (that could entirely not even indicate enemy spawn and just be story related) clearly indicates when or where enemies are going to spawn.

I don't even remember that quote at all (unlike most of the actual ambush spawn quotes), but if it's there, it still doesn't negate the fact that there's no indication whatsoever of where the enemies are going to spawn.

And then enemies start spawning every turn from the clearly marked spots where enemies started from in the first place. If you don't have the wits to figure out what that means, you don't belong on Hard Mode.

I don't think that's the case, I'm pretty certain both Forts and Staircase reinforcements can be blocked off on Lunatic. Unless there's an exception in a chapter I'm not thinking of.

They do it in Ch9. I haven't seen it happen anywhere else.

[PKL]

On Lunatic, I believe has them come out of them still even if you block the forts.

I've never seen that happen o_O. Anyway, I was talking about Hard mode.

[Othin]

I don't think it's unique to Lunatic. The one place I've seen them do it, Ch9, I was playing Hard.