Rhythm Tengoku Mafia: The Best + (Game Over)

[Snike]

I imagine most of us are claiming vanilla.

Incidentally I did crumb/claim D1.

Afternoon, and Happy Canada Day! It's time to Tap! (there refa I capitalized it get your mind out of the gutter)

Welcome to the test Trial of the Snikcafe, Dormio. Regrettably, we don't serve call Girl(s), bodyguards or chainsaws at this establishment, only verbal beatdowns, circus animals, and Vanilla milkshakes. I am going to state my townreads as early or as late as I want to so that, on the chance that I die, my views are out there to help the Townie(s) lynch scum.

[Elieson]

What's Tap Trial have to do with your claim j/c?

[Snike]

That's the like flavor character

[Shin]

I have to head out soon so I can't really say that much. Not voting yet for obvious reasons.

[Blitz]

Blitz you took that out of context, I was directing that question to elieson.

darn, I am just as bad as j00 in my case is then. I thought j00 was the one who was asking the question when it was actually Elie.

also, I am vanilla as well, I don't think I ever hinted it, but, I might have mistakenly done so.

[Blitz]

so, I will start this up with player analysis using isos (I feel like I haven't used this method in ages...)

[spoiler=Elieson]

I cut out irrelevant stuff and ignored joke/fluffs

Why are you posting reasons to not vote for Shin? I don't even see why it's necessary

I'd rather let Manix clarify , but I think I understand where he's coming from with his Shin vote. I disagree with it, especially how he did it, but I see the motivation

Seems like a bit of a stretch given that he posted a perfectly good reason not to vote for the person he's voting for, in his vote post.

goes after Manix for saying stuff not to vote Shin in the post, but understanding the motivation behind voting Shin.

I voted for Manix because:

• He voted for Shin, despite giving a fine reason to not vote for Shin
• I disagree with his idea that Shin is worthy of a vote due to Shin's efforted {spoiler} thing

he clarifies this in his next post, but, I don't see the 2nd point in his first post though

agrees that he wants to show Manix as waffling, but that is half the plan

clarifies further

defends own meta but, I somehow don't ever remember Elie defending his own meta as town though

clarifies again

I guess I interpreted his analysis of shin more as a "I actively dislike your attempt at home posting"

where did you imply this, cause all I see is this

I don't get anything here than the backpedaling on Manix and yes, I find it to be universally scummy to back pedal trying to not take any faults on one self

I thought this implies Manix is now more leaning town

I think I said what I had to in a post after this regarding it

pretty sure it was quite late at that point

doesn't exactly try to stop the Dormmio lynch after thinking Dormio is probably town, just stays away from it

actually @ dormio i'm really bad at pushing cases especially day 1 when there's no actual evidence to work with, you can look back at probably any game i've played and see that i'm historically shitty at pushing cases, and prims and others often write postgames about me not being good at it, so if you're saying "oh look elie's unvoted his prime suspicion and moved on without explaining his thoughts", then you need to re-read my statement and see if you can interpret it in any other way since:

• I never said I feel like Manix is Town (I'm still leaning Manix as likely scum)
• As i said above, my vote on Manix was doing nothing. Continuing to blindly tunnel Manix shelters my eyes from the rest of the game and I'm not all about doing that
• My vote can apply pressure if used properly (one aspect would be to vote in non-tunneling ways), IMO, and Blitz reads to me as big talk and lots of bad cases and fluff, which I've identified

red: more self meta

whatever brown you wanna call it: it sort of implied you did when you called him a hero

whatever green you wanna call it: tunnelling isn't the only way to find scum, IMO and you know that better than a lot of other guys. You have nice ways of finding scum with your awesome reaction tests, which you didn't even do this game

blue: you didn't really identify anything at that point

self votes the same moment Shin unvotes

talks about answering Iris's questions

these 3 posts and mostly places a vote on him for his wording. Now this isn't bad, but, the problem is, my vote on Elie is pretty much the same thing. So, I am calling hypocrisy right here.

#341 (Blitz), Blitz comparing me to somebody from some anon game that i didn't even play in smells really bad to me. His entire D2 posts consists of like 3/4 bleh stuff. It's a lot of unmemorable filler for someone to posts such a massive post, ignoring quote sizes and such.

that wasn't the only thing I did though. You are trying to avoid it by claiming that is all I did though.

I think I followed up wherever I needed to

regarding this

once again, that is not what I said

"@419: I was more or less fooling around in the post where I called him the town hero that we didn't deserve (or whatever I said in that post)"

feels like further back pedalling

@next paragraph right after. He claimed he did it intentionally.

@next paragraph after that. I always thought Refa was town and since I always think he is town, I wanted to make sure he didn't do anything scummy, which he didn't. Snike said something which was pretty much the same as what he had mentioned earlier, I didn't have anything to say there, so, I didn't have anything to say the next time either.

meta is still a valid reason to lynch people when you can't find scummy content also, if it isn't, why did you use self meta to defend yourself?

I don't know how I mistook this for a post by j00. But, not reading the stuff going on in thread is scummy. Especially not reading flips Though, I actually fall in this category too.

Overall: Elie's early game was mostly tunnelling Manix and coming up with reasons to tunnel Manix, which is fine, IMO. But, then he goes and back pedals out of it and moves to me. Moving to me, I guess, is fine, but the way he backpedaled, I do not like. I also thought his post implies Manix is now more a town read than a scum one. His next content post after is where he says Dormio is probably gonna turn up town, but, he doesn't really try to convince others to move to j00 instead. He also claims meta is irrelevant, yet he uses self meta to defend himself. He also claims my case on him backpedaling is bad (which is due to the way he worded it) but, he goes in and says Kaoz saying he doesn't want Dormio around for lategame is also bad, which btw, is also a case on wording. Basically, his two main cases on me is using meta and using cases for weird wording, both of which he is guilty for. Not paying attention to the flips and claims is also a thing (but, I am guilty for it too).

I still think Elie is scum. From what I remember reading, I do not find Snike or Haze scummy (with individual townreads on both Bizz and Kirsche) and that just leaves Kaoz and Shin. I am gonna try and do player analysis on everyone else, but I should make some roles first

@Haze, why did you hammer j00? (we had time left, right? Ignore this if we didn't)

[Elieson]

I still think Elie is scum. From what I remember reading, I do not find Snike or Haze scummy (with individual townreads on both Bizz and Kirsche) and that just leaves Kaoz and Shin. I am gonna try and do player analysis on everyone else, but I should make some roles first

- Blitz

- Elieson

- Haze

- Kaoz

- Shin

- Snike

- Via (Quote) kirsche

So, Shin, Kaoz and myself are the scumteam, because you're townreading everyone else? Do you find Snike/Haze townie, or just not scummy? Your wording leaves a bit open to interpretation. Just making sure I understand your logic here.

Also, where's your theory as to why Paperblade was killed? His last scumreads were:

Haze, j00, Shin, Elieson

according to your logic, Paperblade was killed because he suspected two of the same people that you suspect. Paperblade doesn't make sense for somebody that a scumteam of Shin+Myself would kill. J00 was already dead when the nightkill occurred, meaning his suspicions lie between two people that he'd be likely to case.

I guess unless we had some sort of obvious reason to do so like a theoretical scum cop check or something. Oh and WIFOM but there's no point in arguing that since it'd just stall discussion

---

My thoughts;

Elie

kirsche

Snike

Shin

Haze/Kaoz

Blitz

I'm feeling less and less confident about Snike's track (since obviously the current scumteam count is three, and there's a 33% chance that Snike's track would've even caught Haze in the act, assuming he took the kill and isn't a Ninja), and that j00 hammer was outrageously bad.

[Blitz]

I find Snike townie, I find Haze to be leaning town

my theory regarding Paperblade's death is that he was the doctor. I think mafia has a full time investigation role and the towniest guys were hit every night. I also think mafia didn't shoot Kirsche over Paper cause Paper had the chance of stopping the kill

[Shin]

I'm still curious to why Haze hammered j00, we had a fair while to go and I was in the process of asking questions. I've been scumreading Kaoz the entire game, I still don't feel particularly good about him. Looking at the remaining players, kirsche and Blitz seem really towny, which leaves Eli and Haze. I guess Snike exists, but I'm not particularly scumreading him either. I'm not quite sure why watching Haze clears him, all it proves is that he didn't do anything that night. Eli's been kinda suspect the entire game and Haze has been pretty unmemorable other than the j00 hammer.

I don't like how Eli's trying to use hypothetical scum!Shin to say that he's not scum. Regardless of who scum are, Paper was easily the best choice of a scum nightkill, especially if scum were able to figure out his role. I'm also vanilla, which really doesn't help much at this stage, this doesn't seem to be a particularly role heavy game.

[Blitz]

oh, in that case, Haze really should answer why he decided to hammer j00

[Snike]

I'm still curious to why Haze hammered j00, we had a fair while to go and I was in the process of asking questions. I've been scumreading Kaoz the entire game, I still don't feel particularly good about him. Looking at the remaining players, kirsche and Blitz seem really towny, which leaves Eli and Haze. I guess Snike exists, but I'm not particularly scumreading him either. I'm not quite sure why watching Haze clears him, all it proves is that he didn't do anything that night. Eli's been kinda suspect the entire game and Haze has been pretty unmemorable other than the j00 hammer.

I don't like how Eli's trying to use hypothetical scum!Shin to say that he's not scum. Regardless of who scum are, Paper was easily the best choice of a scum nightkill, especially if scum were able to figure out his role. I'm also vanilla, which really doesn't help much at this stage, this doesn't seem to be a particularly role heavy game.

He was clear for the day(not mylo/lylo), not clear overall. Given the hammer he should be looked at as one of the primary lynch targets today.

At least, in my mind.

[Zkirsche]

More ISOing, a little demotivated after the two people I read died and I was wrong about j00. Read Kaoz before Elie because his post before the end of last phase bothered me somewhat and I should read Elie and Blitz together anyway:

Kaoz: Doesn't really do much this game, I get that he's busy but what he's put down doesn't impress me. It's ok to not have a lot of reads, but the Iris case only really comes to the forefront when he needs to consolidate on one of the wagons. He spends most of the game tunnelling Shin, mentioning Iris only briefly, before the switch and the huge paragraph just feels like he is over justifying it. He also completely forgot Shin in him previous post which is ??? doesn't really feel like scumhunting is at the front of his mind.

Haze: There's not much to analyse but #459 reads more as frustrated town than scum. It's weak but it's something. Everything else is fine but he's suffering the Kaoz problem of no scumreads. Whoisscum? Did you read into the kill choices at all, you said you noticed something and wanted to think about it, but you never elaborated?

I did notice in Haze's ISO that there seems to be quite a few vanillas though, too many in fact. Being one myself makes it, what, 2 flipped vanillas and 6 alive claimed ones (myself, Haze, Snike, Blitz, Elie, Shin). Still have to read Snike, Blitz and Elie but after that I should have a scumteam. I don't think Blitz+Elie would be on the same scum team or Kaoz/Shin would be on the same team though.

I'll also read the dead townies' thoughts before they died, scum seem to be dictating the day phases so it'd be good to see if they're just killing off their opponents. I'll address some stuff after my last post now:

scum role not wanting to visit every night: what would that role be?

Iunno an X-shot of a powerful scum role? A passive mafia role that isn't godfather? I guess he's "more clear" than the rest of us, but it's getting late in the game and I wouldn't rule him out without looking at his play. Admittedly there isn't much to go off but still. =E

Liking the rest of your content though. It feels a lot more thorough than what your content was in Thousand Names.

I don't really get the Huge Haze Hate on Hammering. I've done it plenty of times as town, it's especially easy when hammer doesn't take a lot. I wouldn't say it factors into Haze's alignment much and people should spend the time chasing this up scumhunting elsewhere imo (Blitz/Shin/Snike I'm looking at you). It's very easy to complain about this when really it's more of a bad play than a scummy one.

I don't really understand Elie's logic regarding the Paperblade kill? Surely you+Shin would both want PB dead considering you consist of 2/3 of his scumreads and having a player like him be on your case in *ylo is not easy.

Speaking of PB, I doubt scum!Blitz would advocate a PB kill since PB was pushing a town meta read on him. That, along with the already explained meta makes me think he's town.

So Blitz is townie and Snike looks pretty cool so I'd say my scumteam is Haze/Elie/Kaoz from PoE and the above reasoning. Haze looked pretty ok on a reread too though ugh... Toss up between him and Snike then.

[Elieson]

You make an incredible point. I'm too busythinking of WIFOM scenarios, though, which is why i felt weird about the paperkill.

Kirsche, where's shin on your scumchart exactly?

Also kirsche, cutting phase early with a stupid hammer is still stupid. Didn't we have like 12+ hrs left? Could've still had meaty discussion in that time. Robbing us of our already limited discussion time when people like laoz and blitz and haze evidently barely have time to post is scummy. That didn't come out like an accidental hammer,

[Zkirsche]

Haven't read him properly yet but the stuff I've seen doesn't seem particularly egregious, it's just as I think only one of Kaoz/Shin to be mafia and Kaoz is scummy I think it's less likely Shin is.

Yes, it is stupid, but someone being stupid doesn't make them mafia. They could just be town who've made a misplay, and as someone who's made that misplay many times before I can attest to it being very possible to make as town.

[Elieson]

Just Like you've done mistakes as town, I've intentionally early hammered as scum. It's a two way street

[Prims]

46 hours and 53 minutes left.

Haze and Kaoz have been prodded.

[Elieson]

If both haze and Kaoz are mafia I'm forcing Kaoz to forever be my checker and I'm gonna supply him with miserably imbalanced games to approve, and I'm going to permanently shoot haze if im Vig in any game we are in together

[Elieson]

Also shin why was my thing with u and I and paper bad again?

[Zkirsche]

Just Like you've done mistakes as town, I've intentionally early hammered as scum. It's a two way street

That's exactly why we can't infer anything from this. What about the rest of his content as you didn't really discuss it much? Are you telling me that your second strongest scumread in *ylo is based off of a null tell?

[Elieson]

That's exactly why we can't infer anything from this. What about the rest of his content as you didn't really discuss it much? Are you telling me that your second strongest scumread in *ylo is based off of a null tell?

By that logic, you can't infer anything from anybody because anybody could accidentally say/do something.

I dunno, Haze's D1 play focused around scumreading j00 and Dormio (which could easily be just considered playing poorly I guess?)

D2 featured some Iris (for being Iris?) and some j00 (for being j00?) D2 didn't feature much of anything

D3 includes this gem and this other gem look like Haze is just being aggressive for no reason. His incredible one-paragraph of D1 j00 logic gets called out by himself as a reason to withhold suspicion on j00, when he hasn't even mentioned j00 for the rest of the game. Talk about tunnelling, Haze tunneled j00 like all game, for reasons which genuinely appear to be just an overall dislike for the flamingo ever since a bit of d1 disagreement. Srsly, almost 2 weeks ago, he said;

j00's #33 vote on Manix was strange enough, as his argument was basically 'hey, you helped push us out of rvs! I DON'T LIKE THAT' then he waffles on about how Elie and Shin are 'safe' day 1 lynches/mislynches. I'd probably ignore it if not for #47, where he flip flops and attacks Elie, one of his 'safe day 1 lynches,' for voting Manix. The first half of his #47 wasn't fantastic either, I don't disagree with the sentiment that Via was being hypocritical, but rather than aggressively calling it out, he shrunk back and asked 'why me?' Which is a non-confrontational and defensive stance to take, maybe it's just me, but I take issue with that.

This is the only thing he said about j00 all game, unless you count;

My #315 was meant as an attempt to push this and lynch j00, I backed off of it in in #393 because like I said, I hadn't had time to follow up on it and didn't see it happening last minute yesterday.

which i dunno.

Thanks kirsche, you've given me an excuse to go back and reread Haze, and confirm my gut-scumread into an actual scumread. Still leaning Blitz a teeny bit more, but I've got no qualms about Haze at this point

---

ooooo but wait, look at Elie, he's just voting for the guy who's inactive. He's even been prodded!

Yea, only he says he'll post, and never follows up with actual content. Sure, he'll demand content and tell people to backtrack to his j00 case (look two quotes up), but he hasn't mentioned other key players like Kaoz or Shin, and has said like one line about Snike which doesn't mean much of anything. He's demanded quite a bit for a cold and calculating...whatever blitz called him.

Yea well...he was tracked as not visiting, so that automatically makes him more likely to be town than the rest of everybody else

Nope. It's LYLO and we have ??!Snike claiming a clean record on ??!Haze. Unfortunately, right now, people haven't got that much to go by since the only confirmation we have is Refa targeting Snike (since no one else CC'd, obviously). Mafia has 3 people since LYLO albeit confirms it, and I already said that there's a 33% chance in and of itself that Haze would've even taken the kill, and in a vanilla heavy setup like this, who knows what power roles mafia has. It's all spec, but that's just that. It's all spec, townreading Haze on Snike's claim should be left to Snike and only Snike right now, and that's if he's even town.

So you're basically saying that Haze is scum because he could be scum?

Sure, if you want to get plain and simple. Anyone could be anything;

Kaoz could just be wildly inactive and unable to produce content that he'd normally put out as scum

Shin could just be Town!shin or scum!shin, look at his play. it's not indicative of alliance, it's indicative of Shin

Blitz could just be too distracted to followup on his standard blitz play to make himself even more town than he is trying to be

Iris could've just been having difficulty with reads and was busy and out of practice

It can be said about anything, but if you disagree with my analysis, give me reasons why, so we can try to come to a consensus. I have an open mind, if something logical and concrete comes up. Kirsche already helped me realize that I had a pretty dumb path of logic with the Paperblade kill. I'd love to be convinced of more things.

Yea, that's a pretty scummy thing to say Elie

Just vote for me. At this point, it's more difficult to try to figure anything out when 1/3 of the game is being prodded and I'm only really at a chance of discussion with one, maybe two people at a time. I'd rather go down trying to catch scum than debate with my back against a wall in a sense that I'd just be delaying the inevitable D1 mislynch of Elie that hasn't actually happened for a while

So, who's scum?

I said earlier, but now i'm more confident.

Blitz/Haze

potentially Kaoz

Unlikely Shin

Honestly, I'd have to see Haze flip before I can formulate a valid opinion on Snike. I'm just that uncertain, but I still feel like looking for 2 in 5 is better than looking for 3 in 6, even though the math doesn't add up. Snike is too much of a Wildcard for me to really place an accurate scumread on. I hate having this thought process about anybody at all, but it's really where I'm at

If kirsche is mafia, he deserves to win.

[Snike]

UM whoever the fuck is saying I'm claiming clear on haze today is not fucking reading.


I said he was clear for yesterday, not today.

I don't think that quick hammer did him any favors.

[Kaoz]

@kirsche

#496: Yes, my reason for voting Haze was that I found the other three townier. As for scum reads, not really. I still have the thing on Shin I've been going on about for most of the game, but I didn't think it would've been helpful to reiterate it again when we were focusing on the four others, especially since I knew I wouldn't be around the next day.

#537: This game as a whole is pretty close to the back of my mind. Thus, saying that I'm not very invested in scum hunting is absolutely correct.

@Blitz

#506: What's the thing you picked up on regarding Elieson (near the bottom)?

#531: Your conclusion contradicts what you said in #506 from what I can tell. Please explain this. Also, I honestly haven't clicked all the links in this post again, but regarding the one you labeled as self-meta, I think you're misinterpreting Elieson's statement there. From what I can tell, he was saying that Paperblade's read on him didn't reflect his game as a whole which is different in my opinion.

Incidentally, Elieson, why didn't you point this out or reply to this post?

@Snike

#509: I feel like I should clarify this. I didn't say that you had no case on j00 and I didn't say there was anything wrong with you voting for her. But to me it read like your earlier posts had the sentiment "Haze is clear on investigative results, I don't even need to look at his content" and that's what I took issue with.

Splitting post due to length.

[Kaoz]

So, for starters, I'm vanilla too. In other words, everyone still alive claims to have the same role.

Next, I'm town reading kirsche and Elieson and am leaning town on Snike. Obviously I know I'm town too. This leaves me with a Blitz/Haze/Shin scum team based on PoE.

Talking about these three individually, I'm feeling the least certain about Blitz just because of the sheer volume of his posts - the only memory I have of scum!Blitz is Xenoblade Mafia and he didn't post like that back then. However, I'm not getting a town read from his actual content which puts him below the rest in my mind.

As for Haze, I don't agree with kirsche that we should disregard the hammer vote. There was a five hour difference between Paperblade's and Haze's votes and considering Haze referenced Blitz's wall in the same post I have a hard time believing he didn't see the other j00 votes (heck, there were bolded votals between Blitz's and Haze's posts showing j00 at L-1).

Finally, regarding Shin - I don't have anything new on him, most of his later content hasn't had the same issues I pointed out before. That doesn't suddenly make those early posts invalid or disappear though.

That's all I got for now. I probably won't make another post today, but I will definitely get one in before deadline.

[Shin]

I'm super tired, my work schedule is pretty demanding. Eli, I'm not quite sure what you were referring to, could you link to the post in question? I'm a little uneasy about your associated reads, mostly because a mistake at this stage is gg.

[Elieson]

@Shin

Why was this part something that you don't like?

I'm still curious to why Haze hammered j00, we had a fair while to go and I was in the process of asking questions. I've been scumreading Kaoz the entire game, I still don't feel particularly good about him. Looking at the remaining players, kirsche and Blitz seem really towny, which leaves Eli and Haze. I guess Snike exists, but I'm not particularly scumreading him either. I'm not quite sure why watching Haze clears him, all it proves is that he didn't do anything that night. Eli's been kinda suspect the entire game and Haze has been pretty unmemorable other than the j00 hammer.

I don't like how Eli's trying to use hypothetical scum!Shin to say that he's not scum. Regardless of who scum are, Paper was easily the best choice of a scum nightkill, especially if scum were able to figure out his role. I'm also vanilla, which really doesn't help much at this stage, this doesn't seem to be a particularly role heavy game.