SSB4: SSB for Wii U and 3DS, maybe the NX and also your toaster!

[BANRYU]

I wasn't even talking about Sheik. I was talking about Banryus argument against the avatar and how the avatar isn't "canon" to fe13

First of all, that's not what I was saying at all; either you're misunderstanding me or you misspoke.

Secondly, I don't see how the canon of characters' appearances DOESN'T matter in Smash Bros. The only character whose appearance goes against anything in the canon is, well... Sheik.

EDIT: Well if you want to get technical I suppose there's also things like Ike wielding Ragnell even though technically both his costumes in Smash Bros never saw him wielding it, and ZSS with her laser stripper heels. Is beside the point though anyway

Either way, I don't see how bringing that up does anything to refute my argument that adding the Tactician would probably be an overly muddled and complicated process, both in terms of design and bureaucracy. (I mean hell, if they thought Ridley was too complicated to make playable in Brawl...) The bureaucratic element of how this game gets made is something a lot of people forget; Sakurai's said that even among Nintendo's IPs, adding characters like Pokemon is more complicated in terms of business and copyrights than most people realize.

So what do you guys think we're going to get on Tuesday?

I'm hoping for 2-3 newcomers and maybe a 2-3 veterans.

I mentioned earlier in the thread that I'm guessing we'll get the full starting roster for the game. It IS E3, after all, and even if the game comes out near the end of summer it's still coming relatively soon.

Edited June 9, 2014 by BANRYU

[Florete]

First of all, that's not what I was saying at all; either you're misunderstanding me or you misspoke.

Secondly, I don't see how the canon of characters' appearances DOESN'T matter in Smash Bros. The only character whose appearance goes against anything in the canon is, well... Sheik.

EDIT: Well if you want to get technical I suppose there's also things like Ike wielding Ragnell even though technically both his costumes in Smash Bros never saw him wielding it, and ZSS with her laser stripper heels. Is beside the point though anyway

RD Ike does wield Ragnell in this costume, though.

Either way, I don't see how bringing that up does anything to refute my argument that adding the Tactician would probably be an overly muddled and complicated process, both in terms of design and bureaucracy. (I mean hell, if they thought Ridley was too complicated to make playable in Brawl...) The bureaucratic element of how this game gets made is something a lot of people forget; Sakurai's said that even among Nintendo's IPs, adding characters like Pokemon is more complicated in terms of business and copyrights than most people realize.

If they could use a default appearance for Villager, they can do the same here. Yes, I read your point on that and how they're not quite the same, but I honestly don't think they'll care about those minor differences. Neither have a canon appearance, and as far as I'm concerned, Villager being added despite that is all I need to know.

[BANRYU]

RD Ike does wield Ragnell in this costume, though.

If they could use a default appearance for Villager, they can do the same here. Yes, I read your point on that and how they're not quite the same, but I honestly don't think they'll care about those minor differences. Neither have a canon appearance, and as far as I'm concerned, Villager being added despite that is all I need to know.

Did he? o___0 I'm remembering it wrong, then. Derp.

I think the difference is that the Villager has several default appearances, and by the looks of it, a good deal of them are being represented here-- each of the different Villager costumes we've seen thus far in that one SSotD are blatantly copied from the defaults in Wild World onward. Obv they don't have enough character slots for all of them, but they seem to be using the most distinctive ones, at least, which is a good (and easy) design choice to make.

With the Tactician, the only real defaults are.... well, the defaults (just one appearance per gender), and then the hooded thing (which I don't think is a good way to go, though others may disagree). Admittedly, I got a little overly dramatic here and there in stating my case about the Tactician, but I think the point I was trying to make is that even going with his/her default appearance as a playable character in SSB 'canonizes' the character, (insert shpeal about iconic characters vs insert characters, bladdity blah) something that it seems like IS really tried to avoid doing with him/her (and I don't know why they'd allow SSB to contradict that now). Despite everyone and their mother using the default as the 'canon' look for the character, the fact remains that this is technically only a fan construction until such a time as it should be canonized by a source like SSB or another FE game. And again, it really seems like that's something they want to avoid.

Edited June 9, 2014 by BANRYU

[Florete]

Why would a default appearance in SSB be considered "canonizing" it, though? It would just be the SSB appearance. None of Villager's defaults are considered canon, are they? I wouldn't say SSB4 canonizes anything about Villager's appearance if they can potentially look drastically different.

[Ema Skye]

Here have a pic of the day!

[kingddd]

Neat.

I still can't wait to turn on high item rate and master balls only. Greatest cluster****.

[BANRYU]

EDIT lol whoops. A bunch of replies happened while I was making gibberish.

Anyway, cool, Meloetta! We've seen how she works already, so nothing new here, really.

Why would a default appearance in SSB be considered "canonizing" it, though? It would just be the SSB appearance. None of Villager's defaults are considered canon, are they? I wouldn't say SSB4 canonizes anything about Villager's appearance if they can potentially look drastically different.

...It's difficult to explain... They're definitely different, though.

[spoiler=Ensue wall of text]I think it just seems like a bigger leap from 'batch of presets chosen via personality quiz that you can then dress up' to 'freely customize your personal character's face/voice/stats'. Maybe that's just me, but it's definitely different in a way that I'm apparently just not explaining properly. I dunno... to me, it makes sense with the Villager to have the multiple default templates from AC represented as color alts in SSB, since they're varied and recognizable with the game's quirky style to begin with. The Tactician has what, the cloak? Nothing else beyond the default customization options gives the Smash 3U designers any reasonable way to narrow down or decide on alternate appearances like the Villager has. It's just... they're designed completely differently as far as self-insert characters go. Animal Crossing has you take a quiz and then gives you the character or haircut that it thinks suits YOU out of the stock options available. Meanwhile in Awakening you're completely free to make your OWN liddle person right at the get-go, and you instantly get more attached to the character because of that (unless you cop out and just go with the default, in which case, well you're just no fun, are you?). Maybe that element of choice is what I'm thinking separates them. (That, and the fact that Awakening's initial options are infinitely more flexible and actually allow for a fairly large variety of possible combinations.) (You get choice in AC too with clothes, but... it's different. It's just... different. It's like... reclassing in Awakening. It doesn't come right away and you have to work for it in the game, and is effectively nonessential in both cases)

Also, the Villager is the singular main character of Animal Crossing while the Tactician is like one of 2-3

I've brought this up like a million times before so I'm assuming we're taking that into consideration in this discussion already

As far as 'canonization' goes, I guess that just has to do with the sheer force of SSB's influence on fans. Saying 'it's just the SSB version and that doesn't mean anything' is all well and good, and YOU might think that, but SSB has proven to predispose the way people look at characters and even influence the aesthetics and even gameplay of OTHER franchises it used-- it was thanks to Melee that the Gourmet Race theme from Kirby became the Fountain of Dreams theme (but okay, maybe you can write that off since Kirby and SSB are both HAL labs); the Star Fox series didn't start using small-scale weaponry like blasters and such until AFTER Fox had them in SSB64. And NOW, the Villager we've gotten to know in SSB is generally considered the 'iconic' appearance of the Animal Crossing main character by a lot of people-- the red male Villager has been forever established as the face of Animal Crossing, since that's the first one we saw in SSB. (Maybe that's hyperbole, but what do YOU picture when you think of the human character of Animal Crossing? Ask the average layman what HE thinks-- chances are good that for people who've never played Animal Crossing, the SSB red Villager is what comes to mind.)

Truth be told, I have my own objections to the notion of giving a blank slated or customizable character like the Villager a primary or predisposed appearance, (a complaint that's been somewhat mitigated by the alternate appearances we've seen so far) but that's beside the point at this stage of the game.

The point is that the Tactician takes the principle too far.

The kind of character that he/she is is not the kind that belongs in a Super Smash Bros game.

I'm really bad at saying what I mean in a reasonable amount of words. =___= Sorry.

(And frankly I'm still not really even sure that I properly explained what I'm thinking)

Edited June 9, 2014 by BANRYU

[Kyea]

Did he? o___0 I'm remembering it wrong, then. Derp.

I think the difference is that the Villager has several default appearances, and by the looks of it, a good deal of them are being represented here-- each of the different Villager costumes we've seen thus far in that one SSotD are blatantly copied from the defaults in Wild World onward. Obv they don't have enough character slots for all of them, but they seem to be using the most distinctive ones, at least, which is a good (and easy) design choice to make.

With the Tactician, the only real defaults are.... well, the defaults (just one appearance per gender), and then the hooded thing (which I don't think is a good way to go, though others may disagree). Admittedly, I got a little overly dramatic here and there in stating my case about the Tactician, but I think the point I was trying to make is that even going with his/her default appearance as a playable character in SSB 'canonizes' the character, (insert shpeal about iconic characters vs insert characters, bladdity blah) something that it seems like IS really tried to avoid doing with him/her (and I don't know why they'd allow SSB to contradict that now). Despite everyone and their mother using the default as the 'canon' look for the character, the fact remains that this is technically only a fan construction until such a time as it should be canonized by a source like SSB or another FE game. And again, it really seems like that's something they want to avoid.

I assume IS would love to have any of its characters in SSB. After all, it's been the greatest advertisement for FE thus far. I know you feel strongly against it, but I doubt the people at IS feel the same way. But obviously, none of us here know how they feel or what they would want because we are not part of Nintendo/IS higher-ups/insiders... At least as far as I know... So any argument doesn't mean too much, other than personal opinion and desires. Naturally, this means my argument doesn't mean much either. After all, whatever they have for the game is already done at this point.

That being said, we still have no idea if FE gets a third rep, much less who it would be. Hopefully we get to learn this on Tuesday, so we can finally start putting many of these arguments to rest. Though I am hopeful for a third rep; no matter who it may be.

Also Meloetta. not much to say about it until I see it in action. It does make me wonder what other Pokemon we haven't seen yet. The amount of stuff and details they are putting into this game are amazing.

Edited June 9, 2014 by Kyea

[Alertcircuit]

"Go rewatch the video to find Pokemon and give us ad revenue."

[BANRYU]

I assume IS would love to have any of its characters in SSB. After all, it's been the greatest advertisement for FE thus far. I know you feel strongly against it, but I doubt the people at IS feel the same way. But obviously, none of us here know how they feel or what they would want because we are not part of Nintendo/IS higher-ups/insiders... At least as far as I know... So any argument doesn't mean too much, other than personal opinion and desires. Naturally, this means my argument doesn't mean much either. After all, whatever they have for the game is already done at this point.

That being said, we still have no idea if FE gets a third rep, much less who it would be. Hopefully we get to learn this on Tuesday, so we can finally start putting many of these arguments to rest. Though I am hopeful for a third rep; no matter who it may be.

Dude do you think I wouldn't love to play as FE13's Tactician in Super Smash Bros? If logic and common sense be damned, then I'd be all for it, and if the character DOES get in (which (s)he won't), I'll play the shit out of him/her. The problem is, it's not realistic to expect Awakening's avatar to be a playable character-- that's what I'm trying to say.

It's not that IS wouldn't love having their characters in SSB (I'm pretty sure they're enjoying the attention that Marth Roy and Ike are garnering them already), it's about legal issues and things like that. Like I said, I'm no expert and I'm hardly a businessman, but I'm pretty sure that the image that IS tried to establish for the Awakening player character would be contradicted by almost any portrayal they could give him/her.

It's not even a matter of want. IS can WANT the character to be playable in SSB if Sakurai came and asked them 'who should I use next' or w/e, but it's just a matter of the character not being a good fit for the game, and I think both Sakurai and IS would agree on that. I don't know how many times I can repeat that self-insert characters have no place in SSB (and yes, maybe that applies to the Villager too to an extent, whatever! They're completely different situations for reasons I've explained enough already for now). The Villager can be considered an exception to the rule, or the exception that proves the rule or whatever you want to call it, but Sakurai wouldn't put a character like the FE13 Tactician in the game.

Tl;dr version: It's not a matter of want. The character isn't a good fit for the game.

I will bet any one of you real money that if you asked Sakurai himself about putting the FE13 Tactician into SSB, he'd tell you that it's impossible for exactly that reason. Using a character like that goes against the idea of what Super Smash Bros IS and it baffles me that people are constantly substituting their wishful thinking for common sense without realizing it in relation to this. (I mean, if you WANT it to happen but know it probably won't, that's totally fine! At least you're self-aware of it, y'know? Like how I and a bunch of other people want Ridley even though it's pretty doubtful at this point, but even then, at least there's probable CAUSE for Ridley)

Sorry if I'm rude and ranty and incoherent, it's late and I'm tired. I'll give out more specific apologies tomorrow if they're needed.....

Edited June 9, 2014 by BANRYU

[Alertcircuit]

Dude do you think I wouldn't love to play as FE13's Tactician in Super Smash Bros? If logic and common sense be damned, then I'd be all for it, and if the character DOES get in (which (s)he won't), I'll play the shit out of him/her. The problem is, it's not realistic to expect Awakening's avatar to be a playable character-- that's what I'm trying to say.

It's not that IS wouldn't love having their characters in SSB (I'm pretty sure they're enjoying the attention that Marth Roy and Ike are garnering them already), it's about legal issues and things like that. Like I said, I'm no expert and I'm hardly a businessman, but I'm pretty sure that the image that IS tried to establish for the Awakening player character would be contradicted by almost any portrayal they could give him/her.

It's not even a matter of want. IS can WANT the character to be playable in SSB if Sakurai came and asked them 'who should I use next' or w/e, but it's just a matter of the character not being a good fit for the game, and I think both Sakurai and IS would agree on that. I don't know how many times I can repeat that self-insert characters have no place in SSB (and yes, maybe that applies to the Villager too to an extent, whatever! They're completely different situations for reasons I've explained enough already for now).

I will bet any one of you real money that if you asked Sakurai himself about putting the FE13 Tactician into SSB, he'd tell you that it's impossible for exactly that reason. Using a character like that goes against the idea of what Super Smash Bros IS and it baffles me that people are constantly substituting their wishful thinking for common sense without realizing it in relation to this. (I mean, if you WANT it to happen but know it probably won't, that's totally fine! At least you're self-aware of it, y'know? Like how I and a bunch of other people want Ridley even though it's pretty doubtful at this point, but even then, at least there's probable CAUSE for Ridley)

Sorry if I'm rude and ranty and incoherent, it's late and I'm tired. I'll give out more specific apologies tomorrow if they're needed.....

Then what would you say to the rumors that Miis are going to make an appearance?

[BANRYU]

Then what would you say to the rumors that Miis are going to make an appearance?

If we're talking about the Find Mii stage, I'd say this is not a rumor and is accurate. If we're talking playable characters, I'd say this isn't Mario Kart 8 we're talking about here.

Edited June 9, 2014 by BANRYU

[Nova]

If we're talking about the Find Mii stage, I'd say this is not a rumor and is accurate. If we're talking playable characters, I'd say this isn't Mario Kart 8 we're talking about here.

I guess he refers to the Gematsu leak as well.

[Anacybele]

Sorry about the Sheik debate, but I do not appreciate being told I'm wrong about his gender when there is no reason I can't consider him to be male.

Anyway, Meloetta is looking cute. ^^

Can't wait to summon Keldeo though! :3

[Vicious Sal]

Sorry about the Sheik debate, but I do not appreciate being told I'm wrong about his gender when there is no reason I can't consider him to be male.

Anyway, Meloetta is looking cute. ^^

Can't wait to summon Keldeo though! :3

I consider you to be male. And I do not appreciate being told I'm wrong about you being a male when there is no reason I cannot consider you to be male.

As for E3, i am very hopeful for a Micaiah reveal, light magic everywhere! It's not likely at all, and I won't be bummed if she's not a part of the roster. But if she is, it would make my day.

[TheWill]

Micaiah would be awesome, but sadly I'm betting on Lucina/Chrom using Dancing Blade/Counter if there's an FE newcomer (which I'm actually betting ther won't be, although I'm not confident about that one!). Fun, fun, fun.

[Jave]

As much as I'd love Micaiah I've pretty much accepted that her chances of being in are next to none. She's on the camp with those characters that only stand a chance because "She is a Nintendo character therefore she is eligible".

I'll be happy with Assist Trophy Micaiah, though.

[Anacybele]

I don't think Micaiah will be in. Two Tellius reps wouldn't make sense when there's a whole bunch of other main characters to choose from. If someone not from Awakening gets in, my bet is on someone from the GBA games for reasons I stated earlier in the thread.

[Maiden of Ghosts]

I admit, I'm still holding out the TINIEST bit of hope for Micaiah. XD It probably won't happen, though, which I've kind of come to terms with. It's unfortunate, too, since I think she would have been much more of an interesting character to add than Ike. (Which I say because Marth getting replaced was out of the question, and two Tellius characters are pretty unlikely. I'm still really happy about Ike being back, though, don't get me wrong! I just would have preferred Micaiah though, both because she's my favourite FE character, and a female magic user would be a great change from the male sword user spam we have when it comes to FE. XD also I say "add" because even if Ike was in Brawl, his return was still debated a bit. Ssshhh, I'm totally good at getting my point across.)

A Micaiah assist would be great, though.. If anything, I can cross my fingers for that!

(Also, I can't be the only one who was hoping they'd change the flames that some (one?) of Ike's moves have (Forgive me for not remembering the exact specifics on that. I am actually a giant noob when it comes to Smash Bros. Oops?). Because unless I missed something.. They're still orange/red. Which is dumb, because uh Hero of Blue Flames? It wasn't as huge a deal in Brawl, because PoR!Ike, but now that it's RD!Ike.. I find it strange that they didn't change it. :c)

Edited June 9, 2014 by Maiden of Ghosts

[DodgeDusk]

(Also, I can't be the only one who was hoping they'd change the flames that some (one?) of Ike's moves have (Forgive me for not remembering the exact specifics on that. I am actually a giant noob when it comes to Smash Bros. Oops?). Because unless I missed something.. They're still orange/red. Which is dumb, because uh Hero of Blue Flames? It wasn't as huge a deal in Brawl, because PoR!Ike, but now that it's RD!Ike.. I find it strange that they didn't change it. :c)

This kinda surprised me, too. Project M changed the flames to blue, which I'm glad they did. The Hero of the Blue Flames still having red flames seems like a really odd oversight to me, though it might be intentional

[FrostyFireMage]

Dunno if it's been said already, but the Coliseum from the FE series is a new stage.

[Anacybele]

We've known about that stage for days. :P

And I agree that Ike not getting blue fire is weird, but he could still have a blue Great Aether! Here's hoping. ^^

[Florete]

Sorry about the Sheik debate, but I do not appreciate being told I'm wrong about his gender when there is no reason I can't consider him to be male.

I don't care if you appreciate it or not, lol. When you're wrong, you're wrong, and that's that. If you said 2 + 2 = 5, you'd be just as wrong. Get over it.

I'm actually a little surprised that a good number of people want to see Micaiah. I would love to see her as well, but I'm pretty sure the chances of her being anything more than a trophy (NOT assist) are basically 0.

[Jedi]

The Micaiah hate of the past has ebbed. Its pretty nice, I also remember in Brawl kinda wanting Sothe to be playable I figured a rogue would stand out. But I knew and know he has practically no chance

[Anacybele]

I don't care if you appreciate it or not, lol. When you're wrong, you're wrong, and that's that. If you said 2 + 2 = 5, you'd be just as wrong. Get over it.

Except I'm not wrong. You yourself said that Sheik's gender is debatable. So there IS no right or wrong answer.