How should we handle a long-term Lunatic tier list?

[Da Bear]

Also, does Spotpass really sell legendaries?

It doesn't

[Chiki]

So you can get Mjolnir, Brave weapons, Spears, Celica's Gale and such.

Remember that you don't get as much money as you'd like in this game (you can comfortably forge some things, and buy as many tonics as you need, but you can't go crazy with it).

[XeKr]

Bonus box, where you get the paralogues and summon the teams, has a set of free legendaries. We don't have the full set yet (of note, missing Naga, Forseti), but will eventually. They're not thaat op, I was mainly asking clarification.

Edited June 7, 2013 by XeKr

[Da Bear]

So you can get Mjolnir, Brave weapons, Spears, Celica's Gale and such.

Remember that you don't get as much money as you'd like in this game (you can comfortably forge some things, and buy as many tonics as you need, but you can't go crazy with it).

No you can't get Mjolnir. the rest you can get however.

Edited June 7, 2013 by bearclaw13

[Randa]

You can get everything he listed except for thorshammer.

[Chiki]

You can get Mjolnir from the Bonus Box.

And Spotpass finished updating on 30 May, so the rest of bonus box legendaries is here: http://www.serenesforest.net/fe13/spotpass.html

[XeKr]

Seems like we will eventually get the last 3 that Japan has but they're every 2 weeks now. And Europe even later.

Edited June 7, 2013 by XeKr

[Redwall]

That's not the most fair comparison; Ch 17 is where the difficult spikes and many units are going to perform worse at that point. Avatar!Lucina's 1-2 range problem just doesn't last long enough to justify her being a full tier or more below Morgan.

In my playthrough, Morgan was Lv 15 at the beginning of C15, a stage in which he grew at least six levels; Lucina started that stage at about Lv 13, but ended just shy of Lv 16. I tried my best to feed kills to Lucina, but she didn't get to 16/1 at the start of C17, with no opportunity to gain lance rank. After C17, I was only able to secure one round of combat with her as the lead support unit. Even in C17, I needed to forge +15 crit to a Killing Edge just to have a 68% conditional probability (given her stats as they were) of ORKOing a War Monk; the Parallel Falchion wasn't enough for me that time.

Lucina's inability to do much EP countering during C15 forces her to deal with a lower level than Morgan going forward, as well as having to deal with either E-ranked tomes or 2 Mt Javelins going forward. Also note that while Avatar-mothered Morgan starts with C tomes and Veteran, and can inherit either Rally Spectrum or Galeforce, Lucina cannot get Veteran while inheriting Rally Spectrum or Galeforce unless she reclasses to a class in which she has E tomes and lower base stats (lower by 1 Str and a glaring 3 Spd). Although she will continue to be able to use the Parallel Falchion upon reclassing to Tactician, the Str and Spd decrease really hurts. With all this in mind, I think a large separation is appropriate.

Not many are better. This is Lunatic. Sully gets up to speed much faster than most units, including everyone below S tier (yes, that includes Chrom). She'll be more durable and powerful than Cordelia and Sumia. Sully way more than makes up for any opportunity cost she takes.

I agree that not many are better, which is why most units are ranked so low.

Assume unrestricted deployment. You first need to explain to me how we're getting Sully to Lv 10 or so by C8 while averaging about six or so turns across C1-7 and the Paralogues, should you choose to do them. After doing this, you'll need to provide some outline of how to have her keep up when the promoted enemies appear en masse.

Here's roughly what I did for Chrom:

Pro: Chrom gets 72 EXP from striking and killing the boss.

C1: I don't think he gained more than like 10-20 EXP from Dual Attacks here.

C2: I fed him between 1-3 kills. I don't remember the exact details, but I'm not even sure I got to three with him in that level.

C3: Chrom ORKOed the LHS Knight.

C4: I don't remember much; I don't recall giving Chrom more than one kill, and it may have been zero. Got a small amount of Dual attack EXP.

P1: He got 1-3 kills here.

C5: Chipped and killed at least one Wyvern, got a small amount of Dual Attack EXP. By this point in someone else's playlog I was looking at, Chrom was just shy of Lv 5, and my own Chrom was probably in that neighborhood.

C6: Dual Attack EXP.

C7: Chipped and killed at least one Wyvern.

C8: He definitely killed at least one guy.

C9: Killed at least two Wyverns.

C10-Final: Dual Attack EXP only. I remember him being just shy of Lv 11 or 12 during P17. He ended at 12/1.

I've shown you mine; now you show me yours.

Forgot even A tier for now. Lon'qu? Panne? Gaius (what the fuck?)? These people are not better than Sully no matter how you slice it. I can even say from my Lunatic log that Gaius is really tough to get going and just isn't that good, even with a +Str/Def partner.

Lon'qu starts with a Killing Edge for which no one else has the requisite weapon rank at the start of C5 (not Chrom, not Sully) and can double the enemies (remember there are many axe users) in P1-3, C5-7 with a Spd support.

While I agree that Gaius isn't a good combat unit, he is useful for Locktouch: C6 Secret Book, P4 doors/Bullion (L), C18 Bullion (M), C14 Bullion (M). The latter two will likely not go to Anna since she will be stuck on Rescue duty. Finally, he is useful as a +Mov in C10. Now that you've made me type all that out, I think I will move him down to below Tiki.

To be completely honest, Cherche's position in itself isn't that bad considering what her tier is, it's just that she's above better units. Nowi and Sully need to go up.

Why are Nowi and Sully better units? They can fight, yes, but not without a large turncount investment, one that they do not repay from a turncount perspective except in those contexts in which we restrict ourselves to not using all of the optimal characters, contexts for which this tier list accounts in a similar fashion to those of other tier lists: we assume the player is very likely to use higher-tiered units in the long term, and less likely to use lower-tiered units in the long term.

Killing Grima is obviously a good thing, but...it's one enemy. Killing one enemy shouldn't put him over someone who's better than him for 90% of the game, especially when he really can't even do it alone. You're pretty much going to need to team up against Grima.

Under the current criteria, Chrom needs to be ranked highly for killing Grima, as without him (say we sandbagged him the whole game), a reliable clear will not occur without two really, really strong max-forged Brave users, which the player will only have if he or she spends many turns training those two (for reference, my +Mag Avatar was doing 3 damage per hit to Grima with Rally Magic, Rally Spectrum, a Magic Tonic, and a Waste forge; granted, my run isn't completely representative of the playstyle I assume due to me making some gambles, but Dragonskin means that even an Avatar with higher stats would not do much damage). Chrom saves relatively few turns in the rest of the game, but in Final, he can be expected to save very many.

Lucina's S rank doesn't need to survive two rounds against Grima because that shouldn't happen. If things are taking that long, you'll be in deeper trouble. Also, Fortify.

In my playthrough, a Seraph Robed, Dracoshielded Avatar with Rally Spectrum and every Tonic would just barely have survived two Ignis-boosted attacks occurring during the player phase (Dance) assuming a Physic was used in between. I needed exactly two rounds of PP combat (Olivia) on turn 2 to kill Grima, and while my playthrough isn't completely representative of this tier list, I don't expect that someone playing more reliably at qualitatively the same pace would have noticeably stronger units.

Wait...Sumia is in S tier with just flight and support boosts? I avoided talking about her because I wanted to avoid a Galeforce discussion, but this is ridiculous.

Fred can take a different partner for a map.

I'll type out my thinking on Sumia to keep my head straight. Remember that the way I am handling this, I am placing more of an emphasis on turn-cutting and less of an emphasis on combat than do most of the existing tier lists.

C4: Fred needs Sumia or Chrom to double, but Chrom may give less Spd depending on how many levels he's gotten. Sumia has the advantage over Chrom, and she saves probably a turn or two here.

C5: Fred needs Sumia to double. Lon'qu and Chrom are Paired Up to be able to double and ORKO Barbarians with decent reliability; if either a single Dual Attack or crit occurs, it's a done deal. For this reason, Sumia's the best option for Fred's Pair Up. She probably saves two turns or so when Frederick is fielded.

C6-7: Either Sumia, Chrom, or Lon'qu will be Paired with Fred to allow him to double. Cavaliers have 11 Spd. Sumia saves one or two turns here.

C8: Sumia is the ideal Fred partner, not just for doubling but also to traverse the sands. If someone (Fred) doesn't take out the left group ASAP, everyone who heads down the road gets surrounded. Although she can also ferry, Cordelia benefits the team most from gaining EXP here. Sumia saves many turns here: at least four, probably more.

C9: Not that important to have Sumia ferry Fred instead of sticking him with another Spd-bot, but still useful to get out to a good start on turn 1. I think she saves a turn here.

C10-11: Sumia's not important.

C12: Cavaliers have 16 Spd; the A or S bonus provided by Sumia is helpful to double.

post-C13: Sumia's not doing anything special, but she remains one of many options for staffbot-ferrying. She gets a small bit of credit for this, though not much.

Sumia saves many turns by allowing Frederick to double enemies. Although Frederick can take a different partner for the Spd boost, doing so will have a large opportunity cost since Lon'qu wants Chrom or Panne to ORKO enemies far away from Fred/Avatar with the Killing Edge, and since Cordelia and Chrom want kills of their own in anticipation of Rally Speed and Grima, respectively.

Hmm, I wasn't specifically thinking of the free legendary weapons when I made the poll. I guess I'll just make a separate poll for that once this one finishes.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Redwall

[Florete]

Assume unrestricted deployment. You first need to explain to me how we're getting Sully to Lv 10 or so by C8 while averaging about six or so turns across C1-7 and the Paralogues, should you choose to do them. After doing this, you'll need to provide some outline of how to have her keep up when the promoted enemies appear en masse.

The same way you do for Chrom. Do you remember my comparison of their stats, etc?

Lon'qu starts with a Killing Edge for which no one else has the requisite weapon rank at the start of C5 (not Chrom, not Sully) and can double the enemies (remember there are many axe users) in P1-3, C5-7 with a Spd support.

Sully has Discipline; C rank by Ch 5 isn't that hard. My turns weren't always as good as you seem to be assuming (and I didn't use Sully), but in here I had Chrom at C Swords before going into Ch 5 and Avatar with D Swords and C Tomes. Fred had A Lance and C Axe, as well.

Either way, the KE isn't exclusive to Lon'qu as soon as anyone gets C Swords. Ch 5 or not, that happens before too long. Lon'qu has pretty awful durability and though he doubles, he is heavily reliant on crits to kill for basically forever. He's really just a support bot.

While I agree that Gaius isn't a good combat unit, he is useful for Locktouch: C6 Secret Book, P4 doors/Bullion (L), C18 Bullion (M), C14 Bullion (M). The latter two will likely not go to Anna since she will be stuck on Rescue duty. Finally, he is useful as a +Mov in C10. Now that you've made me type all that out, I think I will move him down to below Tiki.

Rescue duty for Ch14 and 18? 14 doesn't need Rescue or Olivia. You just need a flier to ferry a Hammer user over. Rescue-skipping 18 is pretty tough as it is, and if you plan on it, you're not planning on getting any chests. Even if you are, there are other Rescue users.

What's so good about +Mov in Ch 10 and if more Move is so cool, why has Sully's extra Move been constantly sidelined?

We've always had Fred and by Ch 10 we also have Anna, btw.

Why are Nowi and Sully better units? They can fight, yes, but not without a large turncount investment, one that they do not repay from a turncount perspective except in those contexts in which we restrict ourselves to not using all of the optimal characters, contexts for which this tier list accounts in a similar fashion to those of other tier lists: we assume the player is very likely to use higher-tiered units in the long term, and less likely to use lower-tiered units in the long term.

This is extremely flawed logic; Sully and Nowi aren't high tier units, therefore we don't use them, therefore they can't be high tier units. And what is this turn count investment? Do you realize we need an actual team of capable fighters to beat the game and that Frederick doesn't last past midgame? Do you realize Sully is among the best choices to be on this team, possibly the best aside from Avatar? This doesn't make any sense. You can't make a tier list in a run where all you do is use Avatar/Chrom and Lucina/Morgan for fighting and others for Rally/Rescue.

I'm not really sure about Nowi in Lunatic, but training Sully should not cost you any time. You need units to kill enemies and she shows up so early.

Under the current criteria, Chrom needs to be ranked highly for killing Grima, as without him (say we sandbagged him the whole game), a reliable clear will not occur without two really, really strong max-forged Brave users, which the player will only have if he or she spends many turns training those two (for reference, my +Mag Avatar was doing 3 damage per hit to Grima with Rally Magic, Rally Spectrum, a Magic Tonic, and a Waste forge; granted, my run isn't completely representative of the playstyle I assume due to me making some gambles, but Dragonskin means that even an Avatar with higher stats would not do much damage). Chrom saves relatively few turns in the rest of the game, but in Final, he can be expected to save very many.

Although I've never brought this up before, this is where the complexity issue comes in; we don't typically give major credit for quick, easy, maybe necessary contributions. It's why Edward and BK don't top the RD list and why Chrom shouldn't be getting a lot of credit for damaging Grima.

I'm only okay (for now) with Fred's position on this list because his contribution lasts a significant amount of time and is non-reproduceable by anyone.

In my playthrough, a Seraph Robed, Dracoshielded Avatar with Rally Spectrum and every Tonic would just barely have survived two Ignis-boosted attacks occurring during the player phase (Dance) assuming a Physic was used in between. I needed exactly two rounds of PP combat (Olivia) on turn 2 to kill Grima, and while my playthrough isn't completely representative of this tier list, I don't expect that someone playing more reliably at qualitatively the same pace would have noticeably stronger units.

So...what was the problem? You've only got 1 Olivia and since Chrom does more damage, Lucina's partner shouldn't attack Grima more than once.

I'll type out my thinking on Sumia to keep my head straight. Remember that the way I am handling this, I am placing more of an emphasis on turn-cutting and less of an emphasis on combat than do most of the existing tier lists.

No disrespect, but this whole time you've never intended to take this list to the end. If the list is likely to go in another way once you've gone and you're trying to prepare it now, shouldn't you be guiding it in that direction?

[XeKr]

If Chrom only got to 12/1, and a bunch of those kills were stuff he had effective damage on (Knights, Wyverns), how is Sully going to become a competent fighter within a reasonable timeframe?

Why would we slow down to train weak units when we can steamroll with strong ones? This is something that happens across all FE, most apparent with FE7 Marcus, FE8 Seth, etc.

btw I think Chrom is too high though. >_>

Edited June 7, 2013 by XeKr

[Florete]

If this game's Jagen could last the entire game like Marcus and Seth, you might have a point. But with the exception of FE8, other game's lists still rely on other units to clear maps reliably. I don't know where you're all getting this idea that Sully is a weak unit. Have any of you actually used her? You don't need to slow down for her, at least not more than any other non-Avatar unit.

[XeKr]

Have you used her in Lunatic? She's orko'd and like 6hkos or something silly for quite a while unless you take 20+ turns babying her.

Err, and to clarify. I have used her in Lunatic for my No Avatar run and No Second Seal run.

Edited June 7, 2013 by XeKr

[Florete]

Yes, I used her in my first Lunatic run and you are horribly exaggerating. Who, as a combat unit and other than Fred and Avatar, do you actually think is better?

[XeKr]

I admit I just threw out random numbers. All I actually remember is I babied her for a bunch of turns before she was usable.

Here's a few real numbers: Base Sully has 20 hp/8 spd/7 def. Enemies by C2 have 22-26 atk. Also, she starts with 10 atk. Glancing at a few enemy stats, I see some 32/4, 33/3 in terms of Hp/Def. Sully in her best case scenario with Frederick 3hkos and is 2hko'd back. Except the team is outnumbered by very aggressive enemies and Frederick needs to actually tank stuff or help Avatar tank. I suppose she doesn't want to get doubled by Mercs and orko'd, so she Pairs with Stahl? 12 atk is a solid 4hko I guess. -_-

What is Sully actually doing besides begging for kills? When is she actually going to be not a "weak" unit? Why would we take the time to give her those kills when we can perform faster and more reliable clears through other means?

I'll ask again, how are you making her a competent combat unit in a reasonable timeframe? In what capacity is she contributing to efficient clears? (like, specific examples, not "you need her to kill stuff")

Panne, Lonqu, I'd say are better combat characters. Lon'qu is almost competent at base due to Avoid and high Spd. Panne actually has competitive stats when reclassed. They also have utility purposes in terms of Pair Up. Tharja and Henry have Nosferatu.

I said this a while ago when someone wanted to make a Lunatic list: Avatar and her children are overcentralizing (as you've noted). It's an inevitable consequence of Lunatic stats and Veteran being so broken. Moreover, Pair Up encourages a small combat team with lots of others for utility. The huge number of bosskills mid/lategame encourage a small combat team with lots of others for utility. I see no reason to rank a drastically inferior combat unit highly just because she's better than the other even worse combat units. Note that she nearly tops the list of the scrubs, as expected.

Other B rank characters are there for primarily utliity/support. Which we value highly by the present criteria because they help cut expected turns. Combat is not the only way to contribute. Good at specific utility > Being a bad combat unit.

If you don't like the current criteria, do you have alternate self-consistent criteria for ranking characters?

[-Cynthia-]

Hmm, is getting Miriel/Ricken to promotion within a reasonable timeframe doable? Seems like they could be better Rescue users than Lissa/Maribelle if they can get to promotion (more Mag primarily) Getting to promotion might be difficult although most Lunatic playthroughs I've seen don't seem to have much Rescue staff usage before Libra/Anna show up.

I suppose all of these units have the problem of being outclassed by Anna/Libra on an efficiency playthrough, but I wonder if the gap between them isn't too high at the moment.

[PKL]

^ Miriel is OHKO'd and doubled on join. Ricken is almost OHKO'd and will be doubled on join. They're better rescuers than MariLissa in HM, but I doubt that they are too in Lunatic.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Peekayell

[Titamon]

I've had Chrom reach level 4-5 by the end of Ch. 1 (6 turns in Prologue and 4-5 turns in Ch. 2), by comparison the best I've managed to do with Sully is 1 level.

In my last Lunatic run I used Sully, and while she became a valuable contributor, it took a good amount of grease to get those wheels turning. She basically had to do clean up duty early-game because her enemy phase is simply terrible. She didn't really become a competent unit until Ch. 10, but there were still issues with her durability. It wasn't until promotion (to Great Knight) that she really blossomed. And that's my 2 cents.

Also, I really think there should be a C tier split, perhaps around Ricken or Miriel?

[Chiki]

Gaius's main uses aren't getting those items, but rather making a lot of 1 turns possible with his +1 move.

[Redwall]

The same way you do for Chrom. Do you remember my comparison of their stats, etc?

Does a 12/1 Sully actually find any use past C9? If you train Sully qualitatively like I trained Chrom (who, like I said, couldn't double anything until C9 even with a lot of favoritism from me), Sully will fall off big time, just as Chrom and most other combat units do, once the promoted enemies start to become noticeable.

You note that pretty much every non-Veteran character has similar problems, something with which I do not disagree. That's exactly why I have so many of them in C tier at this time. Neither of us likes seeing C tier so big, of course, but I cannot tier them any higher whether I use the current criteria or whether I adopt the more popular "measuring combat under brisk play" approach simply because a good deal of the C-tier units are, in my opinion, milder versions of HM Donnel.

Back to Sully: suppose she just went poof and disappeared. Would she be missed? Outside the first few chapters, no; her combat contributions can be replicated by many, including Cordelia and Panne. Final gives Chrom a chance to shine, as without training him, the player needs to take noticeably longer on previous levels to train characters. Additionally, training Chrom has the benefit of giving better stats to his two kids, though I grant that the gains will be small.

Sully has Discipline; C rank by Ch 5 isn't that hard. My turns weren't always as good as you seem to be assuming (and I didn't use Sully), but in here I had Chrom at C Swords before going into Ch 5 and Avatar with D Swords and C Tomes. Fred had A Lance and C Axe, as well.

Either way, the KE isn't exclusive to Lon'qu as soon as anyone gets C Swords. Ch 5 or not, that happens before too long. Lon'qu has pretty awful durability and though he doubles, he is heavily reliant on crits to kill for basically forever. He's really just a support bot.

Sully needs 3 Spd from base along with (natch) a Lon'qu Pair Up to double the C5 Barbarians (I don't think C-supported Lon'qu is realistic at this point). With a Str Tonic, Lon'qu when Paired Up does a better job than does this speedy Sully because Dual Attack+ increases the odds of a clean ORKO, whereas the Sully/Lon'qu Pair is a) unreliable due to needing Spd procs and b) even less likely to kill than are the Lon'qu/Chrom duo since they're not benefiting from Dual Attack+.

Specifically, after five level-ups, Sully has a 68.26% chance of gaining at least 3 Spd points if we assume a 60% growth rate and do the binomial distribution calculations, while base Lon'qu is 100% guaranteed to double those guys with a Chrom Pair Up. If we give Sully a C- or B-ranked Chrom support to attempt to benefit from DA+, she needs an extra speed point unless Chrom got lucky enough to get to 10 Spd, which isn't happening unless both Sully and Chrom swallow a disproportionate number of kills that get more use when fed to the Avatar. The odds of getting her at least +4 Spd in five levels are 33.7%.

Even if the odds of gaining the Spd points were higher, how is Sully getting five levels without unnecessary slowdown (which I define as slowdown she does not repay in the form of turns)? I barely got Chrom three levels by that point.

And of course, if Sully doesn't double at all, there's no way we're giving her the Killing Edge.

Lon'qu not only has Avo+10, he can also survive a Barbarian hit at base if given a Def tonic. Enemy accuracy is pretty bad early on, especially with WTA. Not as durable as Sully, sure, but enough to get the job done. Declaring him to be reliant on crits is technically true but ultimately irrelevant since he is fast enough to not only get two chances at critting, but also Dual Attacking. You cannot say this about Sully or Chrom unless they receive counterproductive favoritism.

Rescue duty for Ch14 and 18? 14 doesn't need Rescue or Olivia. You just need a flier to ferry a Hammer user over. Rescue-skipping 18 is pretty tough as it is, and if you plan on it, you're not planning on getting any chests. Even if you are, there are other Rescue users.

I confirmed in my playlog that it is possible to nab the C18 Bullion (M) while reliably killing Yen'fay in a single turn. You are correct about C14, though.

Now that Chiki mentions it, I also found Gaius useful in Final to improve the mobility of Dark Knight Henry, who can weaken Grima with Hex/Anathema. I didn't use him much outside the situations I've already mentioned, but that may have been a consequence of my reclassing choices.

What's so good about +Mov in Ch 10 and if more Move is so cool, why has Sully's extra Move been constantly sidelined?

We've always had Fred and by Ch 10 we also have Anna, btw.

A two-turn clear of C10 is reliable with Gaius; I've never before attempted it without him, so I can't say whether or not he's strictly required for it.

You're putting words in my mouth; I find Sully's Mov useful whether or not she is trained. For example, it is only with both her and Stahl that a reliable five-turn clear of C3 is possible (she can also assist in a four-turn clear, though that is not reliable). It is her bad combat stats (and by extension, Chrom's) that I have a problem with.

Fred shouldn't be used as a Pair bot in the earlygame, I think, and Anna's going to be off staffbotting; for this reason, the only people besides Tiki who directly benefit from Anna's +Mov bonus are herself and her ferry.

This is extremely flawed logic; Sully and Nowi aren't high tier units, therefore we don't use them, therefore they can't be high tier units. And what is this turn count investment? Do you realize we need an actual team of capable fighters to beat the game and that Frederick doesn't last past midgame? Do you realize Sully is among the best choices to be on this team, possibly the best aside from Avatar? This doesn't make any sense. You can't make a tier list in a run where all you do is use Avatar/Chrom and Lucina/Morgan for fighting and others for Rally/Rescue.

I'm not really sure about Nowi in Lunatic, but training Sully should not cost you any time. You need units to kill enemies and she shows up so early.

You continue to put words in my mouth. I actually do consider those contexts in which fewer super-good characters are available; the problem is that in a good deal of them, the best thing to do with Sully and Nowi doesn't actually involve using Sully and Nowi much at all, and it is for this reason that they are low. I award them due credit for being useful when, for example, the Avatar, Cordelia, and Panne are all missing from the team, which is why Nowi and Sully are so high (if I were tiering based solely on an ostensibly optimal playthrough, I would rank Nowi much lower).

The Avatar, Chrom, and Lon'qu do a sufficiently quick job of killing the earlygame enemies for which Fred doesn't have time, in my opinion. Giving these kills to Sully does not improve the expected turncount in subsequent levels. It is only when I remove both the Avatar and Panne from the team that Sully really shines, but how often will people actually do that?

Finally, I do realize that some contexts involve not Rescue-skipping the crap out of every level. This is partly why Cordelia and Panne are so high. Tharja and Henry are also serendipitously in B tier (really, I just put them there for their Pair Up bonuses, which are great on not just the Avatar but also on staffbots for improving Rescue range, and their ability to use Hex/Anathema on Grima).

So...what was the problem? You've only got 1 Olivia and since Chrom does more damage, Lucina's partner shouldn't attack Grima more than once.

What I was trying to convey was that, contrary to what you were saying (or at least what I thought you were saying) about surviving two rounds of Grima being indicative of a problem with the team, it was necessary (at least for me) to do so. My Avatar attacked two rounds during the player phase with Waste and triggered just enough Exalted Falchion and Vengeance strikes to get the PP kill.

No disrespect, but this whole time you've never intended to take this list to the end. If the list is likely to go in another way once you've gone and you're trying to prepare it now, shouldn't you be guiding it in that direction?

None taken. I have made an effort to ease a transition into your tier list by, for example, including Renown awards, making the Spotpass poll, and favoring reliability to a larger extent than does Chiki's tier list. But yes, as you can tell, I'm not the biggest fan of the way most of the other tier lists work; I wouldn't be able to guide this tier list in that direction to the extent that you are expecting simply because my heart wouldn't be in it.

You never needed my permission to start your own tier list, of course; before you go off and do that, however, I'd like to receive some answers to the following questions:

1. Rescue is needed to train some of the shit characters; at the same time, Rescue gives the option of skipping levels entirely, making non-Veteran and non-Panne combatants almost useless. What sort of clearly-defined restrictions on Rescue will your tier list enforce to prevent the Veterans from overcentralizing the game? If we ban Rescue entirely, Nowi, Nosferatanks, and the Veterans rule the day; if we don't restrict Rescue at all, then the Veterans still dominate.

2. How brisk is brisk? Why is brisk as brisk as it is, and not any slower or faster? If it is to discourage a Veteran-centric playstyle while simultaneously exposing the differences between characters, why can we not produce the same results with the more concrete criteria that I have imposed here, namely the chance-of-death threshold and the conditional expection value of turncounts given no Game Overs?

Good luck with your tier list. If you make it in the next few days, I suppose won't be any need to lock this thread since it will just die out naturally.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Redwall

[Chiki]

You can't make a tier list in a run where all you do is use Avatar/Chrom and Lucina/Morgan for fighting and others for Rally/Rescue.

I don't think you understand the tier list. You can consider a context in which you don't use Avatar/Chrom and Lucina/Morgan and rank the other characters based on that.

Is it the most efficient thing to do? Yes, but it doesn't stop us from considering alternate contexts in which we don't do the most efficient thing.

Also, I quickly glanced over his post, but I didn't get the impression that he wanted to make his own list.

There's not much you can do when people are too stubborn to listen to reason, I'm afraid.

I'm also reconsidering Panne and Lon'qu's usefulness over Sully. With the Chapter 8 Second Seal, they can become really good wyvern riders (Panne to a greater extent) and I can see her replacing Cordelia in an optimal LTC run.

Sully is just too underleveled in an optimal LTC run and very difficult to train as a result. Lon'qu can get a lot of Killing Edge kills to level up, and Panne.. yeah, training her is an issue.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Chiki

[Florete]

I'm cutting the character-specific arguments because those aren't going anywhere while we're both arguing under standards - which we clearly are. What needs to be established for those to continue is where the tier list will go (Ugh, more tier philosophy...).

1. Rescue is needed to train some of the shit characters; at the same time, Rescue gives the option of skipping levels entirely, making non-Veteran and non-Panne combatants almost useless. What sort of clearly-defined restrictions on Rescue will your tier list enforce to prevent the Veterans from overcentralizing the game? If we ban Rescue entirely, Nowi, Nosferatanks, and the Veterans rule the day; if we don't restrict Rescue at all, then the Veterans still dominate.

I initially would not restrict Rescue at all, but I don't think this has as large an effect as made out to be. From my experience, the only maps significantly sped up by Rescue are 19, 22, and 25. Potentially 18 as well, but in my run (which didn't have Galeforce) I found it very difficult to find a 2-turn clear and would not rely on it in a tier setting. It can speed up plenty of maps, but most others have too much enemy density to so easily warp your way through.

2. How brisk is brisk? Why is brisk as brisk as it is, and not any slower or faster? If it is to discourage a Veteran-centric playstyle while simultaneously exposing the differences between characters, why can we not produce the same results with the more concrete criteria that I have imposed here, namely the chance-of-death threshold and the conditional expection value of turncounts given no Game Overs?

We are never going to have a concrete answer for that question. However, in my logged run, my aim was for the kind of speed I see a "brisk pace" tier list being, potentially a bit faster in the early maps since I was being pretty careful and not allowing anyone to die (which would make Ch 2 faster).

However, I don't think concrete criteria should necessarily be our aim. Does it complicate things at times? Of course. But the point, to me, isn't to "finish" a tier list, it's to allow it to adapt to changing times and the new and growing minds of the creators. Your idea seems very specifically turn-centric, full calculations and all. I don't like that because it's just not how anyone plays. My idea of a tier list encompasses multiple styles of play as well as possible while being sure to make differences between units apparent; that's where the idea of "efficiency" came from in the first place (yes, I was there when the term "efficiency" was coined).

Another reason I don't like the extreme turn-centric approach is because of the point in time we're at. Lunatic hasn't exactly been "mastered," so to speak, by the community. Many people still don't play it much and plenty even it consider it too much to tier. I disagree with that last part, but I do think the list should start out a bit more lax while allowing people to test out multiple teams and units, find strategies, etc.

Good luck with your tier list. If you make it in the next few days, I suppose won't be any need to lock this thread since it will just die out naturally.

Whether I make it or not, I would never consider it "my" tier list. I don't and never will own a tier list, it's a community project. And so, notice that in the line you quoted, I never referenced myself at all; the other posters in here don't seem to want the list to go in the direction I want it to. There's nothing wrong with that, but I won't be a part of it, and if that's going to be the case, I won't take the reigns of the list.

If there are people out there who want it to take the path of past tier lists and are cool with me taking over, they need to speak up soon, because at this rate it's looking more likely that won't happen.

Also, I quickly glanced over his post, but I didn't get the impression that he wanted to make his own list.

Uh, what? Neither did I, and nor did I act like he did.

There's not much you can do when people are too stubborn to listen to reason, I'm afraid.

I really don't think you of all people should be saying this to others.

Lastly, regardless of where the list goes, I still think it's completely ridiculous to have Chrom so far above Sully given their statistical similarities. This could just mean Chrom needs to go down as he's never really that great.

EDIT: I also just plain don't get Lon'qu. Has anyone noticed that he has the same defensive bases as Sully, only he comes four chapters later? I've had trouble using this guy in Hard mode...

Edited June 8, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire

[Chiki]

The reason you're debating with Redwall in the first place on tier list philosophy is because you've yet to clearly define your terms. This vagueness is what causes debates in the first place. People need to agree on specific criteria with clarity in order to be able to tier list at all.

This problem isn't just because of me. There was a lot of confusion in SDS's tier list on tiering Nowi because the drafters and other people like bearclaw couldn't agree on how fast to go. It's hard to understand the point at which Nowi costs turns when people can't even agree on how fast to go!

This is philosophy 101. http://atheism.about.com/od/logicalarguments/a/definitions.htm

Why is discussing the nature of definitions important? If two people involved in a debate are using entirely different types of definitions for the same term, they may only end up talking past each other.

http://www.quora.com/Philosophy/Why-is-having-common-definitions-important-to-having-a-reasonable-debate

Common definitions aren't so much "important" to a debate as they are a prerequisite: if you don't have them, then you weren't actually debating. You were just engaging your larynx for the exercise.

This is what caused the debating issue in SDS's tier list.

You need definitions before you can even debate anything!

All these vague concepts lead to is more debate, and the inability to tier units.

but I do think the list should start out a bit more lax while allowing people to test out multiple teams and units, find strategies, etc.

They can do this just fine with the tier list. The tier list does not ban any units at all.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Chiki

[Florete]

And you honestly don't understand what it is about you that pisses people off?

I suggest you save your keystrokes, because I'm not bothering with what you have to say in this topic anymore. I considered not making this post, but I figured I could at least grant you the courtesy of letting you know so 1) you don't have to waste your time or 2) if you do choose to waste your time, you won't have to wonder why I'm ignoring you.

[Chiki]

You know a person's lost an argument when all they can resort to is ad hominem attacks.

All debaters with experience realize that definitions are necessary to even debate in the first place.

Edited June 8, 2013 by Chiki

[Vapo]

EDIT: I also just plain don't get Lon'qu. Has anyone noticed that he has the same defensive bases as Sully, only he comes four chapters later? I've had trouble using this guy in Hard mode...

Definitely agree with this, to be honest~ Heck, I've had trouble using him on NORMAL, since even with grinding, he's turned out as the weakest unit on my team.

Lon'qu isn't really worth it. True, he has decent class options, but that doesn't really make up for him being frail and weak, since his only advantage when he joins is his Killing Edge, which is godly so early on. Yes, he has brilliant speed, but it takes away from his other stats. He's also swordlocked for at least 6 levels, which can take a tremendously long time to even get.