Should Casual Return?

[The Protagonist]

I challenge the fucking claim, and I'm sure many other people will. How do you even know this for certain? Have you asked every person who started the FE series with Awakening to the point you know this to be fact?

That seems foolish. Why should I need certainty to make a claim?

In any case, every single player I know who started on casual hasn't left, and I personally know no older players who have switched over, for that matter. Regardless of what you seem to think, not being forced to do something isn't mutually exclusive to not being influenced to do something.

@Thor

I don't mean to force anyone to do anything. All the same, have you ever had to convince a friend to do something fun he didn't initially want to do? People aren't perfect.

[The Protagonist]

1) Casual mode in no way blocks Classic. Classic is the default. That's like saying I can't play Hard because Normal exists--it makes literally no sense.

2) Normal-Classic is the easiest Classic mode in franchise history, by my reckoning. Anyone who's played any FE game before can handle it, so it's not taking vets away from classic. And newbies? It's patently obvious that Casual has helped people ease into the franchise, and a substantial chunk of these people--hold on to your hats, man--might enjoy increasing their challenge as their skill increases!

3) How does other people playing Casual impact your experience in any meaningful way?

1) How have I said this in any way? Being forced to do something is not the same as being influenced.

2) I only wish to incentivize that difficulty scaling. I'm fine with casual, but I think classic would prove more enjoyable and meaningful, so I want people to have an incentive to try it.

3) How is this relevant at all? The topic asks my opinion of the matter. Something doesn't have to affect me directly for me to have an opinion, and, even then, wanting my friends to experience classic is a fair motive. No need to be defensive.

Are you saying i dont know myself well enough to know what kinds of games i want to play?

Get off my freaking lawn, kiddo. I know exactly what i want out of video games, and so do most people who are serious enough about buying video games. All you are doing is making yourself look like a pseudo intellectual who thinks he knows how other people feel. You dont. You dont know me. You dont know the guys posting in this thread. You cannot claim you know what is best for gamers. If you really believe that, then you do not know yourself enough to believe yourself correct.

Regardless of whether you know what you want, you don't necessarily want what will be most enjoyable for you. If someone hasn't played Classic, how are they to know if it would be more fun than casual?

In any case, this is the kind of arrogance about self-knowledge I was referring to. People are highly defensive of their identities in unnecessary ways. I threaten nothing and make no extraordinary claim.

Chill. Seriously. I'm not claiming to be better than anyone. I'm stating an opinion and justifying it with a demonstrable human truth.

Edit: Acccidental double post. I'm used to a forum that auto-merges. I'll try to avoid in the future.

Edited February 13, 2015 by The Protagonist

[Sunwoo]

That seems foolish. Why should I need certainty to make a claim?

Because right now you're just making an ass out of yourself by making assumptions about a bunch of people you don't know. Assumptions that, if are untrue (and probably are), will make you look horrible.

Oh, and guess what? One of my friends, who is even on this site, started FE with Awakening. She started with casual mode. Guess what mode she's played for her nine other replays. CLASSIC.

In any case, every single player I know who started on casual hasn't left, and I personally know no older players who have switched over, for that matter. Regardless of what you seem to think, not being forced to do something isn't mutually exclusive to not being influenced to do something.

Yo. I've played every FE game released in English and quite loved them all. I've beaten Awakening three times on lunatic classic mode. I also play normal casual when I just feel like stomping through the game with a new avatar. You're really good at making all sorts of dumb assumptions. People do what they want, and it's a fucking video game. LET THEM.

[feplus]

People do what they want, and it's a fucking video game. LET THEM.

Finally. I'm glad someone else in this thread favors Intelligent Systems introducing Rich Mode, Skip Mode, and Casual+ Mode. Should make for a fun time.

[Gradivus.]

I wanted to stomp the game on purpose too

I did so with FE12 H1 Classic and Awakening NM Classic. No large difference because given how stompable NM is, your units are unlikely to die at all.

[Vashiane]

Finally. I'm glad someone else in this thread favors Intelligent Systems introducing Rich Mode, Skip Mode, and Casual+ Mode. Should make for a fun time.

My god, chill.

How little of a life do you have to where the way someone else plays a game bothers you so extensively?

Step outside, breathe in the fresh air, it'll be good for you, mate.

[The Protagonist]

Because right now you're just making an ass out of yourself by making assumptions about a bunch of people you don't know. Assumptions that, if are untrue (and probably are), will make you look horrible.

Oh, and guess what? One of my friends, who is even on this site, started FE with Awakening. She started with casual mode. Guess what mode she's played for her nine other replays. CLASSIC.

Yo. I've played every FE game released in English and quite loved them all. I've beaten Awakening three times on lunatic classic mode. I also play normal casual when I just feel like stomping through the game with a new avatar. You're really good at making all sorts of dumb assumptions. People do what they want, and it's a fucking video game. LET THEM.

What assumptions do I unfairly make?

That people are imperfect self-judges, and thus might enjoy something they don't know they want? That's not an assumption. That's proven fact.

That people tend to hug easier difficulties when used to them? I have a lot of personal experience with this case, but, psychology attempts that will almost certainly offend you aside, the evidence of our entire generation preferring lower difficulty games supports me.

[Gradivus.]

I like high-difficulty games, defeating them feels like having gone a big distance.

below me: BURN.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Gradivus.

[feplus]

My god, chill.

How little of a life do you have to where the way someone else plays a game bothers you so extensively?

Step outside, breathe in the fresh air, it'll be good for you, mate.

My god, chill.

How little of a life do you have to where the way someone else posts on a forum bothers you so extensively?

Step outside, breathe in the fresh air, it'll be good for you, mate.

[Jedi]

My god, chill.

How little of a life do you have to where the way someone else posts on a forum bothers you so extensively?

Step outside, breathe in the fresh air, it'll be good for you, mate.

Get the hell out of here. You have no right to make such a scathing comment. You've been here what 2 days? you are making this situation worse. Get the cue

Edited February 13, 2015 by Jedi

[Sunwoo]

What assumptions do I unfairly make?

That people are imperfect self-judges, and thus might enjoy something they don't know they want? That's not an assumption. That's proven fact.

That people tend to hug easier difficulties when used to them? I have a lot of personal experience with this case, but, psychology attempts that will almost certainly offend you aside, the evidence of our entire generation preferring lower difficulty games supports me.

You made the claim that people who start on casual are less likely to play classic. You don't know that. The friend I said who had started on casual and then played every other playthrough on classic? She's the one who posted right above you. Have you not once thought that, oh, I dunno, some people will eventually move onto classic ON THEIR OWN once they figure out how to play the game on casual? That sometimes, you don't need to give them an incentive to move on because they'll do it on their own?

People are imperfect at self-judging, yes, but who is to say that you are a better judge of character of them than you are? These are not your friends, or people you know in any way. We're all strangers on a fucking video game forum. These "imperfect choices and judgments we make for ourselves", they would mean a lot more if it were for something a lot more drastic than a video game. I'm concerned when people choose to make poor decisions that can fuck up their lives and truly harm them. Choosing casual mode on a video game is neither.

Psychology doesn't offend me, dude, I've taken it myself and this is one way in which you're being an asshat. You're "assuming" that psychological studies will offend me when I've taken it myself and know enough about it. People being arrogant assholes offend me. The general principle of "people are imperfect judges of whatever" may be true. But you're a fucktard for applying it to an optional video game mode THAT DOESN'T HURT ANYONE and acting like you know what's better for people you don't even know in regards to a video game.

[Baldrick]

I don't agree with the idea of compromising Casual Mode. If the devs want people to play Classic, don't offer Casual. (And give in-game saves on easy mode)

[feplus]

Get the hell out of here. You have no right to make such a scathing comment. You've been here what 2 days? you are making this situation worse. Get the cue

I don't get the cue.

This is an interesting topic. Reasonable disagreement is expected. Most of this thread has been civil. Some people are being uncivil. It's not the end of the world.

[Topazd]

This has not been about being condescending towards players who play on Casual mode. The primary argument is that Casual mode is an unnecessary and pointless inclusion that conflicts with the developers' own vision whilst riding on the pretense of "accessibility".

The point being, FE14 can most certainly be accessible, perhaps though an additional Easy setting. It doesn't have to be through this gimmick that stands against what Fire Emblem was intended to be.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Topazd255

[Terrador]

1) How have I said this in any way? Being forced to do something is not the same as being influenced.

and I personally think that casual mode blocking people from wanting to experience classic is a bad thing.

Oh, yeah, you never said anything like that!

2) I only wish to incentivize that difficulty scaling. I'm fine with casual, but I think classic would prove more enjoyable and meaningful, so I want people to have an incentive to try it.

Notice a pattern here? You enjoy challenge, don't you? And where you enjoy a challenge, you feel impelled to make things harder for yourself?

Turns out, other people who like challenge think like that, too!

3) How is this relevant at all? The topic asks my opinion of the matter. Something doesn't have to affect me directly for me to have an opinion, and, even then, wanting my friends to experience classic is a fair motive. No need to be defensive.

Regardless of whether you know what you want, you don't necessarily want what will be most enjoyable for you. If someone hasn't played Classic, how are they to know if it would be more fun than casual?

Are you seriously suggesting that you can speak for a million players better than they can, individually, speak for themselves? You and what pile of sociological and psychological and game design degrees? Casual is a worthwhile experience in its own right--less demanding is sometimes better, shocker! Some platforming gamers aren't up to playing Mega Man classic. Many roguelike players would get junked in a very frustrating manner by Crawl or NetHack. Many, many Smash players, casual and otherwise, have no experience or aptitude for Street Fighter or Tekken. One experience does not fit all, and the null assumption should go to the element that brings a positive (here, providing an experience a different audience will enjoy) without really having a negative (oh, no, they won't experience the frustration of Olivia getting gibbed by an ambush spawn in their first run! The horror!).

[Thor Odinson]

The primary argument is that Casual mode is an unnecessary and pointless inclusion that conflicts with the developers' own vision whilst riding on the pretense of "accessibility".

Are you the developers

How do you know what they're actually thinking

Just because a game is one way 10 years ago doesn't mean they can't change their mind on things 10 years later

How do you even know it's the same dev team

For all we cares maybe they wanted away with permadeath and kept classic to be accessible to veterans instead

They coded this and they put it out you don't know what actually went on in their dev meetings

Edited February 13, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[Topazd]

Are you the developers

How do you know what they're actually thinking

Just because a game is one way 10 years ago doesn't mean they can't change their mind on things 10 years later

How do you even know it's the same dev team

For all we cares maybe they wanted away with permadeath and kept classic to be accessible to veterans instead

They coded this and they put it out you don't know what actually went on in their dev meetings

Have you been paying attention? Irysa gave (a couple pages back) a link to an interview with some of the most prominent IS developers. Permadeath is certainly an integral part of FE's outright concept. Sure, not everyone might think of it as highly as all others, but such seems to be the consensus.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Topazd255

[Caster]

Fucking hell people.

It's a damn game, get the hell over it.

No need to fucking act like condescending pricks to each other because of it.

Let people play games the way they want to, who the fuck cares if classic comes back or not.

If people want to play with permadeath off, let them, it widens the fucking audience for the game anyways and it's not for everyone anyways.

So stop acting like fucking pricks to each other over how someone wants to play the damn thing.

I'm one to talk because I'm a hypocrite and a bitch on things like this anyways, but still, sheesh.

I'm done here.

Bye.

[The Protagonist]

You made the claim that people who start on casual are less likely to play classic. You don't know that. The friend I said who had started on casual and then played every other playthrough on classic? She's the one who posted right above you. Have you not once thought that, oh, I dunno, some people will eventually move onto classic ON THEIR OWN once they figure out how to play the game on casual? That sometimes, you don't need to give them an incentive to move on because they'll do it on their own?

People are imperfect at self-judging, yes, but who is to say that you are a better judge of character of them than you are? These are not your friends, or people you know in any way. We're all strangers on a fucking video game forum. These "imperfect choices and judgments we make for ourselves", they would mean a lot more if it were for something a lot more drastic than a video game. I'm concerned when people choose to make poor decisions that can fuck up their lives and truly harm them. Choosing casual mode on a video game is neither.

Psychology doesn't offend me, dude, I've taken it myself and this is one way in which you're being an asshat. You're "assuming" that psychological studies will offend me when I've taken it myself and know enough about it. People being arrogant assholes offend me. The general principle of "people are imperfect judges of whatever" may be true. But you're a fucktard for applying it to an optional video game mode THAT DOESN'T HURT ANYONE and acting like you know what's better for people you don't even know in regards to a video game.

I repeat to you, hopefully for the last time, many things already spoken.

I do not require certainty, nor does anyone ever, in order to claim that something is true. That you expect certainty only in the case of human decision is foolhardy.

I did not claim that no one moves on to classic, only that casual makes people less likely to do so. Please address claims made if you address any.

I did not claim to be a better judge of another person than they, but only that I, knowing classic mode better than they, see something in it worth experiencing and more worthwhile than the benefits of casual mode, and that people do not necessarily know what they will enjoy.

The rest of your post borders on incoherent, so I ask that you be more straightforward about what you claim and more clear about what I have said that you wish to challenge.

Your unprovoked aggression is unnecessary. I'm not looking for a fight or to insult anyone. You need not do so.

Your anger is misdirected, aimed at what you think is an elitist telling others of his superiority. Just chill out.

I just want to see some more people have fun with a cool game.

[Terrador]

The rest of your post borders on incoherent, so I ask that you be more straightforward about what you claim and more clear about what I have said that you wish to challenge.

Your unprovoked aggression is unnecessary. I'm not looking for a fight or to insult anyone. You need not do so.

I only see one person doing any waffling here, and it ain't Boron.

[The Protagonist]

Oh, yeah, you never said anything like that!

Notice a pattern here? You enjoy challenge, don't you? And where you enjoy a challenge, you feel impelled to make things harder for yourself?

Turns out, other people who like challenge think like that, too!

Are you seriously suggesting that you can speak for a million players better than they can, individually, speak for themselves? You and what pile of sociological and psychological and game design degrees? Casual is a worthwhile experience in its own right--less demanding is sometimes better, shocker! Some platforming gamers aren't up to playing Mega Man classic. Many roguelike players would get junked in a very frustrating manner by Crawl or NetHack. Many, many Smash players, casual and otherwise, have no experience or aptitude for Street Fighter or Tekken. One experience does not fit all, and the null assumption should go to the element that brings a positive (here, providing an experience a different audience will enjoy) without really having a negative (oh, no, they won't experience the frustration of Olivia getting gibbed by an ambush spawn in their first run! The horror!).

1.) Those are not the same. The very comment you quoted states the same. Force =/= influence.

2.) People may enjoy a challenge, but often not one unsuited to their expectations or patience. Being used to easy games often makes people hesitant to play ones that feel too hard for them. You're also now making some silly claims about how other people think, the thing you think you criticize me for.

3. No. I did not suggest that, and I suggest you check what I did say if you don't yet know it.

Stop trying to pick a fight, please. You're getting offended for no good reason and getting nowhere.

[Soledai]

I don't get the cue.

This is an interesting topic. Reasonable disagreement is expected. Most of this thread has been civil. Some people are being uncivil. It's not the end of the world.

You could, and in case you didn't, I believe it was the cue to leave.

I would think this:

My god, chill.

How little of a life do you have to where the way someone else posts on a forum bothers you so extensively?

Step outside, breathe in the fresh air, it'll be good for you, mate.

Is pretty uncivil, in your words.

As for the topic at hand.

I personally don't care if it does, I know it will, but I'll still play it how I choose.

[feplus]

I would think this:

Is pretty uncivil, in your words.

I copy-pasted what someone said to me and changed like three words. It's snarky but it wasn't mean-spirited.

[Makaze]

Personally, I do not mind the existence of Casual mode, but I will vehemently insist that permadeath is important and has a profound effect on the development and mindset of the player. I can say with a high degree of certainty that I would not be as careful and methodical as I am today if I had not had permadeath in Fire Emblem. As my first tactics based game, it instilled strong desires to find optimal paths. I would not have the same interest in game theory I have today without it. In this author's opinion, it has been an incredibly powerful feature and I would not want others to grow up without that pleasant feeling of tension that only Fire Emblem permadeath provides.

Are you the developers

How do you know what they're actually thinking

Just because a game is one way 10 years ago doesn't mean they can't change their mind on things 10 years later

How do you even know it's the same dev team

For all we cares maybe they wanted away with permadeath and kept classic to be accessible to veterans instead

They coded this and they put it out you don't know what actually went on in their dev meetings

Please refer to this interview, hosted on this very site, in which the developers of Fire Emblem explained their intentions and hopes when they added casual mode to FE12.

Iwata: When it comes to Fire Emblem, nearly everyone at Intelligent Systems has an opinion about it. It wasn’t like they could just let you play it alone in silence! (laughs)

Higuchi: That’s true. (laughs) Nevertheless, when I got to play the series for the first time, I was captured by its charms. In RPGs, it’s common that you can revive fallen allies, but in Fire Emblem it is the ‘once your units die, they stay dead’ rule that creates its sense of tension. I think it is the most appealing aspect of the series.

Iwata: So 14 years ago you made your request to the director, saying that being able to revive allies was a bad choice. This time too, you were adamant that you’d never give up on the point.

Higuchi: Yes. I thought I’d never concede to their request. Even so, when discussing the issue with Nintendo’s representatives, the point came up that just hearing about the ‘units can’t be revived’ rule might make some beginners avoid the series.

Maeda: Among other things, people new to the series wouldn’t know about the method of resetting and restarting the chapter from the beginning after a unit is killed.

Higuchi: That’s why, so that even beginners could easily enjoy the game, we tried our best to implement ‘relief measures’ aimed at them. One thing we tried was that on a certain difficulty level, like ‘Normal’ or ‘Hard’, if one of your units is killed, they will be revived for the following chapter.

Iwata: In other words, you could choose from a variety of difficulty levels. You examined what would happen, on the easiest level aimed at beginners, if defeated allies could be revived.

Higuchi: Yes.

Iwata: While Higuchi-san was having these discussions with the people from Nintendo, what kind of stance did you have on the issue, Maeda-san?

Maeda: Having originally been a Fire Emblem fan, when I first heard about this, I held the same opinion as Higuchi-san.

Iwata: It was natural that you’d be against the ability to revive characters.

Maeda: That’s right. But on the other hand, there is something that Narihiro-san keeps telling us: ‘Game developers must try to be objective.’

Iwata: In other words, he told you to avoid looking at this from only a fan’s point of view, and to try to see it from other perspectives as well.

Maeda: Yes. We would then request assistance from other people within the company and had them play-test the prototype of the game several times. Among the test players there were people who didn’t play Fire Emblem, but they told me that ‘if there was a mode like this in the game, I might come to enjoy the series as well’. After hearing this, I could sense the possibilities. We might have people, who had since now kept their distance from the series, say to themselves ‘with this game, I might be able to get into the series.’ And so I betrayed my cause midway through development. (laughs) I had gradually stepped to the other side, trying to convince Higuchi-san to change his mind.

Iwata: When you actually tried out a mode with the ability to revive characters, how did you find it, Higuchi-san?

Higuchi: When I first tried it out myself, I thought that it might actually be a nice entry point for people new to the series. And after playing this mode, they might move on to the more enjoyably challenging ‘Normal’ and ‘Hard’ modes. Though that only came after being persuaded by Maeda-san. (laughs)

Everyone: (laughs)

Higuchi: At that point, the debate abated for the moment, but it was far from finished.

Iwata: Considering how long this debate around Fire Emblem had gone on for, it wasn’t going to end so quickly, was it? (laughs)

Higuchi: Yes. (laughs) Afterwards, we argued over how the difficulty levels should be mapped out.

Maeda: In the debate, a proposal came up that, after selecting the difficulty mode, you could select whether or not your characters could be revived.

Higuchi: We had already implemented a difficulty level where your defeated characters would be revived. I thought that this would be enough, but then I would hear people tell me, one after another, that there would be people picking up this game who hadn’t played a Fire Emblem game in a while. There is no way they would want to play on the lowest difficulty level, but neither would they be the types to put up with the ‘super-stoic’ style of play, the style of pressing Reset every time one of their units died. This was the reason for the proposal.

Iwata: Certainly, the people who had played the games ‘back in the day’ would know how to play a Fire Emblem game quite well. Even if these people wanted to enjoy the game casually, it’s unlikely they would be satisfied with just playing the game on the lowest difficulty level.

Higuchi: That’s right. So because we wanted not only beginners, but also the ‘lapsed’ Fire Emblem players to be able to casually enjoy the game, we decided that, instead of only making it a part of a certain difficulty level, we would let the players decide whether or not characters could be revived. Ultimately we wanted to let the players choose the way they would play the game. Targeting not only beginners, but everyone, who wanted to enjoy the game casually, we decided to call the mode with the ability to revive characters ‘Casual’. And for the people who wanted to play this game in the same way as always, we called the other mode ‘Classic’.

In other words, they are not talking about 10 years ago, or out of their ass. The devs predominately prefer the permadeath feature and were reluctant at best to make this change.

[The Geek]

Mods???