The Reason for the Problems With Awakening

[RedEyedDrake]

@Walker:

Cartas wasn't losing, though. Consider how the empire was known as the "Dolhr Empire" even during the War of Liberation and how Medeus was said to not have his full power outside of Dolhr Keep after his first revival. This would imply that Dolhr Keep was were Medeus ruled Dolhr from even during Anri's time and that it is where he was slain by Anri. Meaning that Cartas only "began to lose" during the War of Liberation's battle of Dolhr Keep. And that would mean that Cartas' liberation army, once formed, managed to reach Dolhr Keep without Anri's aid. Doesn't sound like "Cartas was loosing until Anri came back" to me.

@Sage:

The "curse" of the Fire Emblem can still be interpreted as superstition despite the quote you brought up, though. Adrah stole the Binding Shield from the Fane of Raman, meaning he stole a relic from a holy site, and then defiled it for his own gain. Hence the mentioning of it "bearing a curse". Still superstition.

[Knusperkeks]

You're focusing a little too much on singling out the Valm arc exclusively.

I'm just cleaning up the mess of ignorants.

It leaves you wide open for the argument that Chrom still left a moustache-twirling villain with an army of zombies have free reign on his continent while he was busy killing Imperials.

Plegia still needed time to recover from it's lost war against Ylisse and Ferox. I'm pretty sure that Flavia made them suffer well (economically) since even Basilio fears her in that regard.

[RedEyedDrake]

@Knus:

Does the fielding of an undead army really depend on such things, though? The undead certainly don't require any payment for their services and the ones revivng them are most likely doing it out of religious faith...

[Knusperkeks]

@Knus:

Does the fielding of an undead army really depend on such things, though? The undead certainly don't require any payment for their services and the ones revivng them are most likely doing it out of religious faith...

If you assume that Plegia does something during the Valm arc, then I assume that Regna Ferox is keeping them in check.

[Delphi Sage]

[funt=Egeylulz, geneva convection, sans-respect]If you assume that Plegia does something during the Valm arc, then I assume that Regna Ferox is keeping them in check.[/funt]

You mean the Regna Ferox that got nearly wiped out by Valm in Chapter 12, and had its leaders and remaining military in Valm along with Chrom?

Edited March 21, 2015 by Delphi Sage

[RJWalker]

RJW, ya could've reposted what you did from gamefaqs as it was a long, but accurate read, iirc its posts 17-19 on page 2.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/114533-fire-emblem-if/71420739?page=1

Yeah. That rant was inspired by something Brightbow posted on this forum. I used the points he made and added my own opinions and thoughts.

@Walker:

Cartas wasn't losing, though. Consider how the empire was known as the "Dolhr Empire" even during the War of Liberation and how Medeus was said to not have his full power outside of Dolhr Keep after his first revival. This would imply that Dolhr Keep was were Medeus ruled Dolhr from even during Anri's time and that it is where he was slain by Anri. Meaning that Cartas only "began to lose" during the War of Liberation's battle of Dolhr Keep. And that would mean that Cartas' liberation army, once formed, managed to reach Dolhr Keep without Anri's aid. Doesn't sound like "Cartas was loosing until Anri came back" to me.

The only reason why Medeus only had his full power inside Dolhr keep is because his resurrection wasn't fully complete and he had recovered less of his power. He even states this if you make him fight Nagi.

Medeus:

“Hmm? So… I am not the only dragon revived. I had heard you perished the last time. No matter; you’ve recovered even less of your power than me. This time, you have no chance!”

More evidence showing that this is just a temporary case of his imcomplete resurrection:

Marth:

“And inside is Medeus, king of the earth dragons- the one they call the Shadow Dragon. …Why doesn’t he leave the keep and face us?”

Malledus:

“I recall Lord Gotoh saying his return is not yet complete; only within the keep’s walls can he maintain dragon form.”

The reason he has power inside the keep would not be because he was slain there but rather, the keep has arcane power, much like that weird apparatus that Gharnef used i conjunction with Imhullu to give him power. That apparatus was located in the throne room of the Tower of Thebes. It is likely something similar gives Medeus more power inside his keep.

There is no evidence that Medeus was slain inside Dolhr Keep or that Cartas' army got that far without Anri. He was apparently able to turn the war in humanity's favour until Medeus himself entered the battlefield.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/fireemblem/images/c/c9/AnriMedeus.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120223022321

Meanwhle, the above artwork clearly shows Anri and Medeus fighting somewhere outside, possibly in a desert. The most likely place would be Khadein/Marmotord desert.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Ranger Jack Walker

[Knusperkeks]

You mean the Regna Ferox that got nearly wiped out by Valm in Chapter 12, and had its leaders and remaining military in Valm along with Chrom?

The very same. They donated money and ships towards the war effort. I bet those necromancers didn't really feel like summoning zombies 24/7 without compensation, and the few who stil stayed true to the cause were taken care of by Flavia and Basilio.

[...]

I remember now that Plegia's plan was to not get involved in the war between Valm and Ylisse to begin with, so that is a more logical explanation to their hibernation during that arc.

[RedEyedDrake]

@Walker:

I realize that him not having his full power is a temporary thing and is the result of his restoration being incomplete. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Also, the apparatus in Thabes is clearly mentioned but it isn't actually ever stated whether the Keep itself has any power, is it? As such, it is equally as likely that, since Dolhr Keep is (pretty likely to be) where he died, that is where he was revived as well and that is why, as one of the imperfections of his state of existence at the time, he could only use his full power inside the Keep. And if he died there then it would imply that Dolhr Keep was the location of the battle during which the whole "Cartas was losing once Medeus stepped in until Anri came back" thing occured. That is my train of thought on the subject, anyway.

Again, was it ever stated that the keep itself has any power? Just the fact that Medeus' full power could only be accessed inside isn't really ironclad proof about this explanation being wrong since the Keep wasn't mentioned to hold any apparatus like in Thabes. Not even by Gotoh since he was the one who explained Medeus' dependancy on the Keep.

As for the piece of art, notice how it is tinted in yellow. That isn't necessarily sand and the background isn't necessarily a sandstorm. It could be a hill and regular stormy background that were colored yellow like the rest of the picture. Also, those pieces of art aren't all that reliable. Notice how the dragon depicted has wings while earth dragons were shown to be wingless. This would imply one of two things. If the dragon in the picture is supposed to be Medeus, whom we only ever saw as having wings in the present after he became a shadow dragon, then the picture's reliability is already in question. Alternatively, the part about the dragon having wings is indeed supposed to be reliable. That would mean that it is a dragon from one of the winged tribes and as such is not an earth dragon, and therefore is not Medeus. And that would mean it doesn't really say anything about the battle that is the subject of our discussion one way or the other.

Besides, whenever I said "Medeus died in Dolhr Keep" I actually meant "Medeus died AT Dolhr Keep". As in, in the general area. My bad about not making that clear.

Edited March 22, 2015 by RedEyedDrake

[RedEyedDrake]

@Walker:

I realize that him not having his full power is a temporary thing and is the result of his restoration being incomplete. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Also, the apparatus in Thabes is clearly mentioned but it isn't actually ever stated whether the Keep itself has any power, is it? As such, it is equally as likely that, since Dolhr Keep is (pretty likely to be) where he died, that is where he was revived as well and that is why, as one of the imperfections of his state of existence at the time, he could only use his full power inside the Keep. And if he died there then it would imply that Dolhr Keep was the location of the battle during which the whole "Cartas was losing once Medeus stepped in until Anri came back" thing occured. That is my train of thought on the subject, anyway.

Again, was it ever stated that the keep itself has any power? Just the fact that Medeus' full power could only be accessed inside isn't really ironclad proof about this explanation being wrong since the Keep wasn't mentioned to hold any apparatus like in Thabes. Not even by Gotoh since he was the one who explained Medeus' dependancy on the Keep.

As for the piece of art, notice how it is tinted in yellow. That isn't necessarily sand and the background isn't necessarily a sandstorm. It could be a hill and regular stormy background that were colored yellow like the rest of the picture. Also, those pieces of art aren't all that reliable. Notice how the dragon depicted has wings while earth dragons were shown to be wingless. This would imply one of two things. If the dragon in the picture is supposed to be Medeus, whom we only ever saw as having wings in the present after he became a shadow dragon, then the picture's reliability is already in question. Alternatively, the part about the dragon having wings is indeed supposed to be reliable. That would mean that it is a dragon from one of the winged tribes and such is not an earth dragon, and therefore is not Medeus.

[arvilino]

Medeus didn't turn on his own. He was revived and turned into one.

Why would they disappear? It's not like the game cares enough to tell us, right?

During the end chapters of New Mystery (at the start of Dragon Vale) Gato states Medeus (while still resting/waiting to be revived) has turned into a Dark Dragon in order to be revived because he can't be resurrected as an earth dragon within 100 years, so it's some kind of change that he can willfully do by himself. It's never really explained so whatever happened to the Earth Dragons could be equally vague.

Only the Falchion was reforged. Not the Emblem. It's name was simply lost but it is the same item. So why does it suddenly have completely opposite powers?

It doesn't though, it has the power to both Awake Grima and give the Falchion the power to seal him. It'd be impossible to say whether the Fire Emblem has the ability to unseal Earth Dragons and as covered earlier it has a myriad of powers. As seen by the Atermis Curse additional ones can be bestowed upon it. As well as the Falchion its appearance has changed in Awakening.

I'm talking about Valm's fucked up geography. Despite the shape of the continent being pretty much the same (hence, no using continental drift to explain it), specific locations are switched around. Duma's remains are now in the centre of Valm instead of where they used to be. Mila's Shrine is now where Duma originally fell. Sage's Hamlet (which is clearly supposed to be Sage's Village from Gaiden is also in a completely different location.

Valm is split up into several countries in the 2000 after Alm unified valencia only for 1,000 years according to the ending of gaiden. Considering all the different kingdoms it would be silly to think all locations would stay the same after 2,000 years.

Uhh, no. Things don't just arbitrarily change for no reason. Please don't even attempt to say 'overbearingingly rigid'. That's just wrong. You don't need to be overbearinlgy rigid to follow relatively simple continuity. Unless you're incompetent which I certainly believe the Awakening writers are.

I'm saying overbearingly rigid because you're talking as if this was a direct sequel, like if New Mystery had different geography. 2000 years is certainly enough time for such changes to reasonably occur like a village to relocate or you know Duma's Tower to turn into a Mila shrine and then fall into ruin 2000 years after the religions were combined by Noma.

Edited March 21, 2015 by arvilino

[RJWalker]

@Walker:

I realize that him not having his full power is a temporary thing and is the result of his restoration being incomplete. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Also, the apparatus in Thabes is clearly mentioned but it isn't actually ever stated whether the Keep itself has any power, is it? As such, it is equally as likely that, since Dolhr Keep is (pretty likely to be) where he died, that is where he was revived as well and that is why, as one of the imperfections of his state of existence at the time, he could only use his full power inside the Keep. And if he died there then it would imply that Dolhr Keep was the location of the battle during which the whole "Cartas was losing once Medeus stepped in until Anri came back" thing occured. That is my train of thought on the subject, anyway.

Again, was it ever stated that the keep itself has any power? Just the fact that Medeus' full power could only be accessed inside isn't really ironclad proof about this explanation being wrong since the Keep wasn't mentioned to hold any apparatus like in Thabes. Not even by Gotoh since he was the one who explained Medeus' dependancy on the Keep.

As for the piece of art, notice how it is tinted in yellow. That isn't necessarily sand and the background isn't necessarily a sandstorm. It could be a hill and regular stormy background that were colored yellow like the rest of the picture. Also, those pieces of art aren't all that reliable. Notice how the dragon depicted has wings while earth dragons were shown to be wingless. This would imply one of two things. If the dragon in the picture is supposed to be Medeus, whom we only ever saw as having wings in the present after he became a shadow dragon, then the picture's reliability is already in question. Alternatively, the part about the dragon having wings is indeed supposed to be reliable. That would mean that it is a dragon from one of the winged tribes and such is not an earth dragon, and therefore is not Medeus. And that would mean it doesn't really say anything about the battle that is the subject of our discussion one way or the other.

Besides, whenever I said "Medeus died in Dolhr Keep" I actually meant "Medeus died AT Dolhr Keep". As in, in the general area. My bad about not making that clear.

You're reading too much into it. I'm saying that resurrection would involve a ritual and the ritual would have been carried out in the keep. Hence, the power would only extend much beyond his keep.

I said it's sand because the terrain is uneven but lacking vegetation and the ease with which the sword has been stabbed into the ground, not because its yellow. That is clearl Medeus. Earth Dragons did have wings back in FE1 and this may have been an early development image and not finalized. There is evidence of this in the game too. In FE11, the Mage Dragon Morzas is depicted a young man without too much facial hair. However, the splash art of Chapter 17 at the beginning shows a old aged manakete with a full beard that is much closer to how Morzas used to look in FE1/3. Clearly a case of his design not finalized. It is likely the same thing happened with the artwork and that Earth Dragons could have possibly have wings before this was changed. Art is usually made before the game so there is precedence for this.

Valm is split up into several countries in the 2000 after Alm unified valencia only for 1,000 years according to the ending of gaiden. Considering all the different kingdoms it would be silly to think all locations would stay the same after 2,000 years.

You're intentionally being ignoring what I said. Why would the writing team give it the same name but completely change it's location? Sage's Hamlet is clearly supposed to be Sage's Village. It's geographical location has suddenly changed for given reason. No explanation is ever given. Why are Duma's remains at the centre of the continent instead of where he fell? No explanation is ever given. Why are there Mila Shrine ruins where Duma was defeated? No explanation is ever given. What happened to the actual Mila Shrine? No explanation is ever given.

It doesn't though, it has the power to both Awake Grima and give the Falchion the power to seal him. It'd be impossible to say whether the Fire Emblem has the ability to unseal Earth Dragons and as covered earlier it has a myriad of powers. As seen by the Atermis Curse additional ones can be bestowed upon it. As well as the Falchion its appearance has changed in Awakening.

Yes it does. The Fire Emblem's true purpose is to seal Earth Dragons. Now, it awakens them. No explanation is ever given.

Also, Artemis' Curse is NOT real. It's superstition.

I'm saying overbearingly rigid because you're talking as if this was a direct sequel, like if New Mystery had different geography. 2000 years is certainly enough time for such changes to reasonably occur like a village to relocate or you know Duma's Tower to turn into a Mila shrine and then fall into ruin 2000 years after the religions were combined by Noma.

Why would the village relocate? No explanation is ever given.

Why would Duma's tower be turned into a shrine for Mila? Especially since the faiths have been combined. No explanation is ever given.

If you haven't picked up on it by now, the running theme here is "No explanation is ever given." I'm going to blame that on incompetence. It's as if the writers spent an hour on a wiki and called it a day. That's how little effort went into it.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Ranger Jack Walker

[Saladus]

It's religious fanaticism. Watch the news, people perform insane deeds in the name of religion (or at least they use religion as a pretense). But this is a whole new can of worms I don't want to open.

No, Richard Dawkins. Too many worshipers aren't out to destroy humanity. Nor do they worship beings who will devour them regardless of what they do.

Chrom had two full years to learn from the plegia conflict.

Chrom was sceptical after hearing Virion's words, so he went to check the situation. Of course he took his troops with him, because not doing so would put him at a tactical disadvantage.

Let's skip to the clash of Dalton and Chrom.

The villager was outraged at Dalton's impossible demands. Rightfully so, since it would make living literally impossible. The villager was mercilessly and intentionally killed on the spot by Dalton.

On the battlefield, the general speaks with the voice of his sovereign. Dalton was speaking with Walhart's authority backing his words. After Chrom witnessed Valm's general commit such an act of cruelty, he was certain that there was absolutely zero room for negotions.

Chrom knew:

A host worth a million men is about to come crash down on him.

He is hopelessly outnumbered.

This means that he is in no position to negotiate peace.

The reason why the Valmese Empire gained so much territory is probably because the foolish former lords or Rosanne (and others, I forgot their names) tried to negotiate peace themselves, only to get crushed and assimilated.

You're probably a person who tries to negotiate with somebody who is pointing a gun to your face while only being armed with a tree branch.

If you know that negotiations will certainly fail, then there is no point to bother with them to begin with. In fact, doing so is harmful, since it gives the enemy more time to prepare. The only reason Ylisse survived was because Chrom made the right call in an extreme situation.

1. Dalton is just one commander among others.

2. Ylisse being ''hopelessly outnumbered'' gives even less grounds to push Ylisse into a war with the Valmese Empire. I guess Chrom should be thankful he had a Mary Sue with him.

Plegia still needed time to recover from it's lost war against Ylisse and Ferox. I'm pretty sure that Flavia made them suffer well (economically) since even Basilio fears her in that regard.

A lousy excuse. Plegia has long been hostile to Ylisse. It is an act of poor leadership to not order Plegia to be put under Ylisse's eye.

The very same. They donated money and ships towards the war effort. I bet those necromancers didn't really feel like summoning zombies 24/7 without compensation, and the few who stil stayed true to the cause were taken care of by Flavia and Basilio.

[...]

I remember now that Plegia's plan was to not get involved in the war between Valm and Ylisse to begin with, so that is a more logical explanation to their hibernation during that arc.

1. Apparently, none of them did a good job keeping Plegia in check. Look at how the Grima arc went.

2. Except Grima was capable of freeing his past body while Ylisse was at war (if not even earlier). So Grima didn't have any grounds not to raise an army on dragonback, torch Ylisse, and battle whoever is left standing from the Valm War.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Saladus

[Irysa]

I agree with some of your points RJW, but disagree with others.

An explanation does not have to be explictly given as long as one can infer a reasonable explanation. IIRC, Duma isn't actually dead at the end of Gaiden, he just...goes into hibernation. Or something. Something may have happened in the thousand year gap that involved Duma actually dying at Demon's Ingle or something along those lines. Perhaps part of the reason Tiki is in Valm now is tied into that. Also, there is more than one Mila Shrine in Gaiden isn't there? FE11 also showed that the Falchion can be weaker than usual, given that you get a weaker version in Nagi's gaiden chapter.

However...having said all this, it is extremely odd that the developers appear to be at least broadly familiar with the things they were referencing and working with yet apparently didn't pay very much attention to the placement on the whole. I think that whilst we can make some acceptable assumptions, it does beg the question as to why explictly chose to move them around in such a way?

Edited March 21, 2015 by Irysa

[RedEyedDrake]

@Walker:

I realize the point about the ritual and am in complete agreement that this version of events is the most probable one. But what we're arguing here is how far Cartas managed to get before the Falchion became necessary.

And yes, I did consider how that particular type of art withing the game is meant to be based more on the FE1 material. However, as I said, it has also proven to be less than reliable in the context of FE11.

As for that particular piece of art, that still doesn't have to be sand. A blade with the sharp end in the ground is something often shown in art form dramatic effect, regardless of how easily it actually is to stick into the type of soil that is drawn. And besides, soil doesn't have to be sandy to be soft. And landscape doesn't have to be a desert to be barren. Not to mention how the background besides that tiny hill is pretty much a blur, meaning it is an afterthought in comparison to the people depicted and should probably be treated as such.

Edited March 21, 2015 by RedEyedDrake

[RJWalker]

Anyway, I can't seem to remember any reference to Cartas being granted powers by the orb or even having one. Citations would be useful here.

[RedEyedDrake]

It was said he was granted the Fire Emblem by Artemis. Given that this happened some 500 years after the Binding Shield was broken it is safe to assume that this was just the shield itself, no orbs. Meaning the only power it would have given Cartas was its ability to undo weak "bindings" and "seals" like ones found chests, the same way it would for Marth a century later.

In other words, it was probably at its most relevant and important as a banner of the liberation army to rally the people. Once again, the same way it would for Marth a century later, until the Binding Shield was reformed, anyway.

Edited March 21, 2015 by RedEyedDrake

[Delphi Sage]

I'm just cleaning up the mess of ignorants.

And you claim NOT to be taking a holier-than-thou stance. Stop using font.

I bet those necromancers didn't really feel like summoning zombies 24/7 without compensation

https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/c/c4/Demoman_laughlong02.wav?t=20110303112439

[arvilino]

I agree with some of your points RJW, but disagree with others.

An explanation does not have to be explictly given as long as one can infer a reasonable explanation. IIRC, Duma isn't actually dead at the end of Gaiden, he just...goes into hibernation. Or something. Something may have happened in the thousand year gap that involved Duma actually dying at Demon's Ingle or something along those lines. Perhaps part of the reason Tiki is in Valm now is tied into that. Also, there is more than one Mila Shrine in Gaiden isn't there? FE11 also showed that the Falchion can be weaker than usual, given that you get a weaker version in Nagi's gaiden chapter.

Both Mila and Duma go to sleep after the events of Gaiden because they consider themselves no longer necessary. I think when you've got gods that are known to be inactive for 2,000 years and then a representative, prophet or "voice"(Tiki) of something else(Naga) seen to be a religion comes by the old ones are going to fall out of favour or forgotten. Hence how there's a shrine to Naga on the Mila tree but the only Mila Shrine we see is the ruins of Duma's Tower. Milla gets some mention but was atleast associated with things such as bountiful harvests, Duma goes unmentioned outside the Japanese name of Demon's Ingle but plotwise being the god of "power" inactive on a continent unified for atleast 1000 years makes him close to irrelevant it'd be dubious why he'd even be worshipped after the events of Gaiden.

However...having said all this, it is extremely odd that the developers appear to be at least broadly familiar with the things they were referencing and working with yet apparently didn't pay very much attention to the placement on the whole. I think that whilst we can make some acceptable assumptions, it does beg the question as to why explictly chose to move them around in such a way?

I actually think game design-wise reason for moving about of locations is mostly for the purpose of the layout and connections between chapters/paralogues world map. They probably wanted to include the Sage's Hamlet and Great Gate(Doma's Gate) but didn't want to paralogues scrunched together on the world map so moved Sage's Hamlet because a village moving is more believable than a giant stone maze plus it lets them connect it up with some other paralogues.

Edited March 21, 2015 by arvilino

[Irysa]

I actually think game design-wise reason for moving about of locations is mostly for the purpose of the layout and connections between chapters/paralogues world map. They probably wanted to include the Sage's Hamlet and Great Gate(Doma's Gate) but didn't want to paralogues scrunched together on the world map so moved Sage's Hamlet because a village moving is more believable than a giant stone maze plus it lets them connect it up with some other paralogues.

I think that's a bit of a stretch. Chapters like 23 and 22 are basically right next to each other, and there's no reason why they couldn't have simply had other paralogues be repositioned to accomodate for the same links we currently have.

[Knusperkeks]

It's sad that I have to start quoting myself because people fail at reading comprehension

It's religious fanaticism. Watch the news, people perform insane deeds in the name of religion (or at least they use religion as a pretense). But this is a whole new can of worms I don't want to open.

No, Richard Dawkins. Too many worshipers aren't out to destroy humanity. Nor do they worship beings who will devour them regardless of what they do.

Worshippers die, sacrificing themselves to Grima for unknown reason.

Meanwhile in reality, people perform terrorist attacks on a daily basis for uncertain reasons.

Chances are that they're supposedly getting something out of it.

In the pre battle script of chapter 22, you can clearly see that something is wrong with the worshippers. Mind control, drugs, torture, brain washing, pick the one you like most. This is all I say on this matter.

Chrom had two full years to learn from the plegia conflict.

Chrom was sceptical after hearing Virion's words, so he went to check the situation. Of course he took his troops with him, because not doing so would put him at a tactical disadvantage.

Let's skip to the clash of Dalton and Chrom.

The villager was outraged at Dalton's impossible demands. Rightfully so, since it would make living literally impossible. The villager was mercilessly and intentionally killed on the spot by Dalton.

On the battlefield, the general speaks with the voice of his sovereign. Dalton was speaking with Walhart's authority backing his words. After Chrom witnessed Valm's general commit such an act of cruelty, he was certain that there was absolutely zero room for negotions.

Chrom knew:

A host worth a million men is about to come crash down on him.

He is hopelessly outnumbered.

This means that he is in no position to negotiate peace.

The reason why the Valmese Empire gained so much territory is probably because the foolish former lords or Rosanne (and others, I forgot their names) tried to negotiate peace themselves, only to get crushed and assimilated.

You're probably a person who tries to negotiate with somebody who is pointing a gun to your face while only being armed with a tree branch.

If you know that negotiations will certainly fail, then there is no point to bother with them to begin with. In fact, doing so is harmful, since it gives the enemy more time to prepare. The only reason Ylisse survived was because Chrom made the right call in an extreme situation.

1. Dalton is just one commander among others.

It doesn't matter who he is or that he is one among many, what matters is that he represents Walhart. Dalton's voice and Walhart's voice are one and the same, that never changes. His tone in chapter 20 and chapter 12 is identical. Notice how Chrom doesn't just kill Walhart on the spot like Dalton did with the Villager. He knows that he has the advantage now, that's why he is in a great position to negotiate. He tries to prevent bloodshed. He fails at it. He would have failed at any point, given Walhart's personality. The difference here is that doing so in chapter 20 doesn't cost Ylisse it's freedom.

I don't particularly like Chrom, heck I think he is a hypocrite, but this particular development really shows that he is not as atrocious a leader as people make him out to be.

2. Ylisse being ''hopelessly outnumbered'' gives even less grounds to push Ylisse into a war with the Valmese Empire. I guess Chrom should be thankful he had a Mary Sue with him.

#172

A lousy excuse. Plegia has long been hostile to Ylisse. It is an act of poor leadership to not order Plegia to be put under Ylisse's eye.

#207

1. Apparently, none of them did a good job keeping Plegia in check. Look at how the Grima arc went.

You wanted a possible explanation why Plegia (apparently) was left to it's own devices during the Valm arc, and I delivered. Whether Regna Ferox was successful or not is insignificant.

2. Except Grima was capable of freeing his past body while Ylisse was at war (if not even earlier). So Grima didn't have any grounds not to raise an army on dragonback, torch Ylisse, and battle whoever is left standing from the Valm War.

I don't precisely know what the fire emblem is actually capable of since the only FE I ever fully played is Awakening. From what I read in this thread, it's fulfilling the purpose of a key, quite literally in that Marth was able to open chests with it. I assume Grima needed it in order to unlock the full potential of his sealed body and got impatient in the end when his plans were foiled.

Even though I can produce this explanation, I personally think the fact that Grima unsealed his body on his own is an ass-pull.

The whole xanatos gambit of having Basilio survive and do espionage as well as faking the gemstones in the fire emblem off-screen to deceive Validar is fine by me though, if only for the dramatic effect in story telling. And we knew that Robin had these visions. Given his/her intellect, he/she could figure out the puzzle and tip the scales.

I'm just cleaning up the mess of ignorants.

And you claim NOT to be taking a holier-than-thou stance. Stop using font.

There is a choice I have to make: Either people are ignorant and do not read my posts and proceed to respond to them with random comments and questions which have been answered long ago, or they are deliberately trolling me. Since trolling is not allowed on this forum, I'll assume it's the former.

So people are ignoring the message of my posts and keep on repeating the same things over and over, regardless of what I write. Because I'm a good person, I try to explain to them the same thing over and over, knowing they won't listen, at which point I'm starting to question the purpose of my posts.

And then Delphi Sage comes along and complains about my font, even though I already told him twice why I'm using it. Not that it has any semblence of significance to begin with, but for no apparent reason.

https://wiki.teamfortress.com/w/images/c/c4/Demoman_laughlong02.wav?t=20110303112439

Glad I could humour you.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Knusperkeks

[Saladus]

Worshippers die, sacrificing themselves to Grima for unknown reason.

Meanwhile in reality, people perform terrorist attacks on a daily basis for uncertain reasons.

Chances are that they're supposedly getting something out of it.

https://books.google.com/books?id=_QXNiFSGpjEC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=Laden&f=false

Organizations such as Al Qaeda have developed, decades old ideologies that can be linked to Western interference. Contrast that with the Grimleal, who have less of a history than the Loptyrians, who are from a SNES video game.

Suicide terrorists are still a minority, by the way.

Also, none of the canonical sources have Allah eat his worshipers regardless of what they do.

In the pre battle script of chapter 22, you can clearly see that something is wrong with the worshippers. Mind control, drugs, torture, brain washing, pick the one you like most. This is all I say on this matter.

Never properly addressed in the default game.

It doesn't matter who he is or that he is one among many, what matters is that he represents Walhart. Read the post you quote before you respond to it.

So what, I'm supposed to pretend every single one of Walhart's commanders are genocidal? That nobody there is capable of negotiating?

#172

Is that supposed to show Chrom didn't push Ylisse into a war so soon after Gangrel's?

#207

Grima's sidekick became the ruler of the kingdom. Ylisse didn't keep a proper watch over Plegia.

That's not the point. You wanted an explanation why Plegia was seemingly inactive during the Valm arc, I delivered. Whether Ferox was successful or not is irrelevant.

There were no grounds for Plegia not to sack Ylisse.

I assume he wanted to unseal the full potential of his body via the fire emblem, but got his plans foiled, at which point he grew impatient and ressurected himself in an imperfect state.

He didn't need the Fire Emblem to win. Grima is a poorly written foe.

Personally, I do agree that this part seems like an asspull. And that's coming from somebody who thinks the off-screen xanatos gambit of faking the fire emblem's gemstones and Basilio's espionage is a-okay.

All poorly written. Edited March 30, 2015 by Saladus

[arvilino]

He didn't need the Fire Emblem to win. Grima is a poorly written foe.

He did, without the Fire Emblem and the Jewels in Grima is permamently killable by Robin and can be sealed by the Exalted Falchion. If Grima or Validar had it and all the jewels then the Falchion can't be awakened and Robin would have been mind controlled and become Grima rendering Grima unkillable and unsealable.

There were no grounds for Plegia not to sack Ylisse.

Excluding the Grimleal, members the plegian army that weren't sympathetic to Emmeryn's sacrifice were all killed when Gangrel was defeated. Ontop of that Validar would have no reason to attack Ylisse while Chrom & co. are in Valm because when they returned with 4/5 of the gems they wouldn't have been lured to the Plegian royal palace if Plegia was attacking them in their absense.

Edited March 22, 2015 by arvilino

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

And please use normal font. Whenever anyone uses a different font, It feels like they're just being holier-than-thou.

This is a really dubious assumption to make based something as simple as someone's choice in text aesthetics.

He did, without the Fire Emblem and the Jewels in Grima is permamently killable by Robin and can be sealed by the Exalted Falchion. If Grima or Validar had it and all the jewels it the Falchion can't be awakened and Robin would have been mind controlled and become Grima rendering Grima unkillable and unsealable.

Good points. This also works in tandem with the implication of the Fire Emblem having all the gems or not making a difference in Grima's power level to create a two-birds-with-one-stone scenario.

[KMT4ever]

The Grimleal are explicitly stated to not necessarily be that devout. There are the hardcore cultists like in Chapter 8, but if you notice the villagers just want them to go away. Aversa says that Gangrel's death threw Plegia into chaos and drove the ordinary citizens to Validar and his Grima-worship. It's not hard to infer that they don't really care one way or the other, but are more interested in the order the Grimleal provide.

The worshippers do not register the Shepherds' presence and can't even speak in coherent sentences. Obviously someone did something to them, probably dark magic, but it really isn't important to know exactly what. Who's going to tell the Shepherds anyway? Aversa? Validar?

The Grimleal are a classic case of people driven to desperation by their circumstances. It happens all the time. Basically they think, "Well, how could things get worse? Let's see what this guy can do."

So what, I'm supposed to pretend every single one of Walhart's commanders are genocidal? That nobody there is capable of negotiating?

That's twisting things a lot. They're not genocidal, they're imperialistic. To paraphrase Dalton, "Surrender absolutely and you'll live." They're out to conquer what they view as a weaker continent. Why bother negotiating when you're so much superior?

Is that supposed to show Chrom didn't push Ylisse into a war so soon after Gangrel's?

He got pushed. Once it became clear Valm didn't want to negotiate what choice did Chrom have? Surrender?

Grima's sidekick became the ruler of the kingdom. Ylisse didn't keep a proper watch over Plegia.

I thought Regna Ferox was supposed to watch Plegia, like Begnion occupied Daein for Crimea in Radiant Dawn. If that's the case you can't fault Flavia and Basilio for letting Validar, the chief Grimleal priest and likely the only one able to do so, take over the reins. They don't know that he tried to assassinate Emmeryn and died in the process.

There were no grounds for Plegia not to sack Ylisse.

Aside from the fact that it would gain them nothing and just draw attention to their evil plans.

He didn't need the Fire Emblem to win. Grima is a poorly written foe.

I suspect that Grima didn't tell Validar his real plan. Most likely he only needed the sacrifices collected to restore his power. The reason for letting Validar snatch the Emblem was to prevent Chrom from performing the Awakening.

All poorly written.

All in all the writing is meh, but it's not that bad.

[Knusperkeks]

https://books.google.com/books?id=_QXNiFSGpjEC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=Laden&f=false

Organizations such as Al Qaeda have developed, decades old ideologies that can be linked to Western interference. Contrast that with the Grimleal, who have less of a history than the Loptyrians, who are from a SNES video game.

Suicide terrorists are still a minority, by the way.

Also, none of the canonical sources have Allah eat his worshipers regardless of what theyvdo.

This is all I say on this matter.

Never properly addressed in the default game.

And yet I was able to understand it just fine.

So what, I'm supposed to pretend every single one of Walhart's commanders are genocidal? That nobody there is capable of negotiating?

Exactly.

It might be true that secretly, some of his commanders do not embrace Walhart's ideology, but there is nothing they can do about it.

Poor Yen'fay had his sister taken hostage by the Valmese.

This point has been already been argued ad absurdum, Eclipse wrote a nice summary.

Actions speak louder than words.

Is that supposed to show Chrom didn't push Ylisse into a war so soon after Gangrel's?

It's supposed to show that "Fight or Die" is not a choice.

Grima's sidekick became the ruler of the kingdom. Ylisse didn't keep a proper watch over Plegia.

There should have been more spies involved, yes.

There were no grounds for Plegia not to sack Ylisse.

Ylisse was collecting the gemstones one by one. It was all planned by Grima.

He didn't need the Fire Emblem to win. Grima is a poorly written foe.

All poorly written.

arvilino answered this nicely.