The Reason for the Problems With Awakening

[Kysafen]

Awakening's main problem story-wise is that it was possibly the last Fire Emblem. They wanted it to be a tribute to previous games; the zombies from Gaiden, the familiar unit tropes, the generation system, the Gharnef (Validar), the big bad dragon, hey look it's Tiki!, straight-up remakes of maps from games prior, and being able to use characters from prior games. Even if the series would expire, it would expire on a note that's ABOUT the series. That they had this much on their plate meant they had to really sit back and plan things out if the product was ever going to be refined or balanced. And with the exception of the engine and the art assets, it wasn't.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Kysafen

[Sentacotus]

Awakening's main problem story-wise is that it was possibly the last Fire Emblem. They wanted it to be a tribute to previous games; the zombies from Gaiden, the familiar unit tropes, the generation system, the Gharnef (Validar), the big bad dragon, hey look it's Tiki!, straight-up remakes of maps from games prior, and being able to use characters from prior games. Even if the series would expire, it would expire on a note that's ABOUT the series. That they had this much on their plate meant they had to really sit back and plan things out if the product was ever going to be refined or balanced. And with the exception of the engine and the art assets, it wasn't.

Thats actually a really good point. I think we are all quick to point to the problems with Awakening without really thinking in the context of the time and situation. If you do actually look through the game even without the DLC its chalk full of references and allusions to the past titles. It was probably safe for IS to think that this was going to be the last game for Fire Emblem ever.

As far as the story. Yeah its not the best and could of been better but I don't think its bad by any means. The characters are what really make it with their supports and convos. Also I think people underestimate the challenge of trying to create a story with a player based avatar as a main character whilist having a huge cast of other characters thrown in as well. If anything I'm actually suprised they were able to come up with a story in the first place.

[Kysafen]

[spoiler=How I'd rewrite Awakening:]I'd rewrite Awakening as such:

1. Make Gangrel and Gharnef Validar the same person, keep the prior war between Plegia and Ylisse the same
2. Make the war of Valm the first arc
3. Have the character with the highest support level with Chrom marry midway through
4. Build up Emmeryn's character throughout the Valm arc
5. Build up Robin's recurring nightmares of killing Chrom
6. Have Plegia originally assist Ylisse, and then turn traitor (Bam, tribute to Shadow Dragon's Gra betraying Altea) against them, kidnapping Emmeryn and massacring their army. Have Chrom be forced to fall back to Archanea to rescue Emmeryn, and then have her be killed by Validar in front of Chrom/Robin's eyes. Cue Robin/Chrom vs Validar fight, and then
7. And this is key, actually have Chrom killed by Robin, no "WE FAKED IT" bullshit.
8. Cue the second half of the game, where Valm, having its forces nearly demolished due to Chrom's fights in the first half of the game, struggles to resist being overtaken by the Archanean Empire. (Bam, tribute to Genealogy)
9. You alternate between the Lucina route, where you directly confront the Archanean Empire (in levels that focus on tactics that involve breaking through heavily organized and armed forces)
10. and through the Morgan route, which takes you on a path to find the spheres for the Shield of Seals (in levels that focus on tactics involving enduring onslaughts of Risen enemies) (Bam, tribute to Gaiden and Sacred Stones in one go)
11. Lucina actually hides her identity under her Marth persona to keep the people of Valm from finding out she's actually Chrom's daughter, but that's tossed away after she discovers
12. Her father's body is being used as the Risen Dark Crusader, Mus
13. as well as Chrom's allies who became the Dark Crusaders.
14. When Lucina and Morgan meet up, it turns out that Morgan succumbs to his/her cursed bloodline and hands the spheres over to Robin resulting in you killing Morgan

15. And going through an entirely different ending path, unless you managed to clear Morgan's gaiden chapters, in which he/she successfully resists the urges and acquires the Starlight tome (Bam, tribute to Binding Blade)
16. which is the only thing that can defeat Validar, who holds the final sphere, the Darksphere, and wields its power with the Imhullu tome (Bam, tribute to Shadow Dragon and Mystery of the Emblem)

16a. (And you discover that Validar betrayed Chrom originally because he not only wanted revenge for the war on Plegia, but he also wanted to restore Grima, thinking his ability to harness quintessence would be able to repair the Aum staff and resurrect his dead wife (Orson tribute), little did he know Grima can only take quintessence)

17. And after getting all the shards, Tiki reveals to Lucina/Morgan that Grima is part-Earth Dragon-part-human, effectively making Grima the descendant of Medeus' bastard child, which means the Shield of Seals is able to seal Grima's draconic form (since the Shield of Seals was, after all, originally made to seal Earth Dragons) (Bam, tribute to Mystery of the Emblem), leaving only the human form, Robin.

18. Robin then flees for the outrealm gate, looking to wreak havoc in another realm that doesn't have the Shield of Seals.

19. The final chapter has three endings:

19a. One where Robin, having harvested the quintessence of two entire continents' wars' worth, flees into the outrealm and then causes the ENTIRE EVENTS of Genealogy of the Holy War,

19b. One where striking Robin with Falchion seals him in his human form, but still manages to get through the gate and causes the events of The Sacred Stones (where his human form, unable to contain his quintessence, twists his body into The Demon King)

19c. Or the best ending where you manage to make your way past the Dark Warlords and kill Robin before he can get through the gate.

This would work for Awakening's plot for a number of reasons:

1. You'd be forced to use the children characters

2. The replayability of the children characters, consequentially, would have farther-reaching implications gameplay-wise, since you're using them for more than whatever time you chose to give to them in the original game.

3. Emmeryn's death and Robin's betrayal would be built up for half of the game, not for 1/3rd of it, giving more room to build up their characters

4. The scenario for fighting the final boss is actually intertwined with the plot: no longer is it a stereotypical "go up to the big bad beast/king in his cave/castle and kill it", but you're actually in a RACE to kill him. Such a goal would make for a grossly unconventional level design challenge for a final boss. It would be fresh.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Kysafen

[Moishe Oofnik]

Thats actually a really good point. I think we are all quick to point to the problems with Awakening without really thinking in the context of the time and situation. If you do actually look through the game even without the DLC its chalk full of references and allusions to the past titles. It was probably safe for IS to think that this was going to be the last game for Fire Emblem ever.

As far as the story. Yeah its not the best and could of been better but I don't think its bad by any means. The characters are what really make it with their supports and convos. Also I think people underestimate the challenge of trying to create a story with a player based avatar as a main character whilist having a huge cast of other characters thrown in as well. If anything I'm actually suprised they were able to come up with a story in the first place.

MU is a bad self insert I even have an arguement of how kris is better (Kris wasnt born as the most special being ever and has a controlable past present and future unlike Robin)

The story revolving around him is bad as he has 0 personality when you see how generic most of the supports in awakening are it just lacks to make sence why shall I as a person care about awakenings story and awfuly forgetable characters (apart from gregor and THE VAIKE)

also look at something here

30 characters awakening has in Gen 1

6 more then FE4 thats not a huge afuck cast now

including children chars they have

43

Including spotpass they have

49

2 more then thracia one more then seisen (not including Subs)

priam has 0 relevance upon the story so it can actually be 48

The huge cast you have is nothing Lol 9999 characters

and for the record the biggest cast of characters FE had is RD with 67 playable characters

@Kysafen

Making the entire game a tribute is not good writing by any mert

Edited March 20, 2015 by TTPK_Tal

[Knusperkeks]

I agree with the sentiment of IS trying to create a game which closes the franchise, posted something along those lines in the thread which critisizes characters.

I blame time travel and time paradoxi for the inconsistency in the awakening storyline. If I really paid attention to the main plot as well as the future past 1, 2 and 3, I could probably come up with a viable explanation, but it would partially be based on conjencture, not actual storytelling.

Some games encourage you to think for yourself, but I think this game just wants to tell a story, and people are forced to see the issues - sometimes the game shoves the contradiction right into your face: As see with the whole "Grima doesn't need the emblem at all."

[Sentacotus]

why shall I as a person care about awakenings story and awfuly forgetable characters (apart from gregor and THE VAIKE)

also look at something here

The huge cast you have is nothing Lol 9999 characters

and for the record the biggest cast of characters FE had is RD with 67 playable characters

Well as far as characters who are forgetable that's all a matter of opinion. I for one would argue that a character like Kellam is freakin more useless to the story than even guys like Priam or time paradox Yen'fay yet there are others out there that think oh lolz no one notices him big guy in armor=great character. Also even though it doesn't have as many characters as say Radiant Dawn thats still 48-49 people that you have to write lines for, make something of a personality for, create different endings based on marriage, make recruitment conditions for. I can see where that would take alot of work. I mean lets face it most games out there (fighting games notwithstanding) don't have that many characters.

Look at Mass Effect's party size or even a game like Xenoblade Chronicles. Games that are considered good and decently written and they don't have nearly the cast size of any of the Fire Emblem games. I'm not trying to excuse some of the aggredious plot holes or bad world building aspects that Awakening had problems with but I'm just trying to give a bit of perspective on the whole thing.

[Delphi Sage]

*SNIP*

What in God's name are you even talking about? It sounds like you're just getting angry at people disliking this game's story at all, and then inventing some sort of crazy catch-all defense against every single post in this thread.

And why the hell are you using a short story about racism as an example? This game has no theme. You would've been better off writing a story about "This is Keith. He pees in his pants. The End" for your example.

And then you say this:

did you know that alot of animes/mangas that are rated seinen (adult) are fucking moe like huge amounts of moe

Yes, because Japan has this ideal that everything should be cutesied up. But that doesn't have anything to do wih anything in this discussion. Not to mention that the "cute" things in FE13 are ALL MEANT TO BE SEXUALIZED AND FETISHIZED.

But on to matters that aren't taking advantage of a 6-year old forum punching bag to vent:

I don't see what the size of the cast in this game matters to anything. There are about 16 characters in this game that actually matter: Chrom, MU, Lissa, Frederick, Lucina, Emmeryn, Basilio, Flavia, Gangrel, Aversa, Validar, Say'ri, Yen'Fay, Walhart, Excellus, and Yurius. Note that I am being very generous with Lissa, Aversa, Yen'fay and Excellus. That's not a very large cast by the standards of everyone's favorite games of Dragon Age: Origins and Mass Effect 2. And half of these characters tend to just serve as expositors and/or reaction images. The large playable cast only comes in play during GAMEPLAY. Any interactions they have are kept behind a massive wall between gameplay and story.

Nobody realizes that almost all the units you get in this game are given in illogical circumstances, oftentimes out of nowhere. Even to the point of that being how Sully and Virion were recruited. I generally don't care about this, though.

What I do care about is that the story has put its full focus on justifying the gameplay, and gets nothing out of it but all-rout objectives and a single lava level. FE10 had a lava level, two swamp levels, three desert levels, plenty of setpieces, and a whole lot of objectives. And all this in a game that put its STORY before its gameplay!

What am I talking about again?

[Interceptor]

Expecting a high-quality story from a Fire Emblem game is like expecting Arby's to carry filet mignon. It has never happened before, and probably never will in the future, so this remains one of the more hilarious (to me, anyway) complaints abut Awakening. This game's plot is nothing more than a binding agent for the gameplay, like mayo in a tuna fish sandwich.

There are places in this world for rich stories and characterization, and some of those places are video games, but Fire Emblem ain't one of 'em.

[Jedi]

Expecting a high-quality story from a Fire Emblem game is like expecting Arby's to carry filet mignon. It has never happened before, and probably never will in the future, so this remains one of the more hilarious (to me, anyway) complaints abut Awakening. This game's plot is nothing more than a binding agent for the gameplay, like mayo in a tuna fish sandwich.

There are places in this world for rich stories and characterization, and some of those places are video games, but Fire Emblem ain't one of 'em.

Someone has ignored Jugdral and the first half of Tellius.

[Interceptor]

Someone has ignored Jugdral and the first half of Tellius.

No, I just have standards. Nothing in this franchise surpasses "entertaining"; not that there is anything wrong with that.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Interceptor

[Saladus]

You know a game is badly written when a SNES video game and its remake (Mystery of the Emblem) does a better job addressing the major antagonists being out to destroy humanity, if not the known world. Or when another SNES video game (Genealogy of the Holy War) does a better job addressing anybody worshiping the dragon planned to return.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Saladus

[arvilino]

Expecting a high-quality story from a Fire Emblem game is like expecting Arby's to carry filet mignon. It has never happened before, and probably never will in the future, so this remains one of the more hilarious (to me, anyway) complaints abut Awakening. This game's plot is nothing more than a binding agent for the gameplay, like mayo in a tuna fish sandwich.

There are places in this world for rich stories and characterization, and some of those places are video games, but Fire Emblem ain't one of 'em.

I agree some people may consider certain(different) entries of Fire Emblem to have a brilliant story, but to me it's something I've read one playthrough and then on every repeat playthrough mashed the start or B button to skip. For example I don't think Radiant Dawn's approach to the story was ideal. The information needed to understand what's specifically happening in the plot can be placed between a lot of dialogue, requiring the players to be engaged in every aspect of the story to understand. When really some people may just want the key information and scenes.

Awakening's better with this, not because the story is great or superior to other entries but the delivery to the player. Each chapter's scenes are quite to the point providing the information the player needs to understand what is happening in the story. The bulk of the reading and character interactions are through the optional support system, which offers a choice for players who do want to read more interactions between the characters as they want them.

Edited March 20, 2015 by arvilino

[Irysa]

Expecting a high-quality story from a Fire Emblem game is like expecting Arby's to carry filet mignon. It has never happened before, and probably never will in the future, so this remains one of the more hilarious (to me, anyway) complaints abut Awakening. This game's plot is nothing more than a binding agent for the gameplay, like mayo in a tuna fish sandwich.

There are places in this world for rich stories and characterization, and some of those places are video games, but Fire Emblem ain't one of 'em.

You're putting words in people's mouths. The complaints are not "Awakening's narrative is not really high class Grade A material", it's that "Awakening's narrative is weaker than many other games in the series". I don't think anyone really expects extremely high quality story from Fire Emblem, they mostly have servicable plot with some endearing characters or moments. That's all I'm asking for, and I'm pleased when there is slightly more (which there is sometimes). Awakening is not drastically below par in this respect but the cohesiveness of the story and how each chapter ties into the next is rather haphazard, especially in the second half. Only the FE12 gaidens (all awful additions to a concise game) and a significant portion of Blazing Sword fall into this trap as well.

EDIT: Actually I guess Radiant Dawn too.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Irysa

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

You're putting words in people's mouths. The complaints are not "Awakening's narrative is not really high class Grade A material", it's that "Awakening's narrative is weaker than many other games in the series". I don't think anyone really expects extremely high quality story from Fire Emblem, they mostly have servicable plot with some endearing characters or moments. That's all I'm asking for, and I'm pleased when there is slightly more (which there is sometimes). Awakening is not drastically below par in this respect but the cohesiveness of the story and how each chapter ties into the next is rather haphazard, especially in the second half. Only the FE12 gaidens (all awful additions to a concise game) and a significant portion of Blazing Sword fall into this trap as well.

pretty much this, i love fire emblem to death, but i know i don't play it for the story, but a the very least i want to read it and go" yeah this is fun and i like it".

which i don't really get from awakening because i keep questioning its plot holes which takes out of my enjoyment of the story, not the gameplay tho, but i don't enjoy the gameplay for reasons not effected by the story so thats another matter.

and thats the reason why i'm not too fond of it, its nothing complexed or worth a 30000 word essay or a 30 minute video fully breaking it down, the story and gameplay just aren't enjoyable for me and i don't like it when people claim that i must have a greater reason then that for disliking the holy grail that saved the series from doom which is why i'm not sucking its cock along with them.

Edited March 20, 2015 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[IceBrand]

pretty much this, i love fire emblem to death, but i know i don't play it for the story, but a the very least i want to read it and go" yeah this is fun and i like it".

which i don't really get from awakening because i keep questioning its plot holes which takes out of my enjoyment of the story, not the gameplay tho, but i don't enjoy the gameplay for reasons not effected by the story so thats another matter.

and thats the reason why i'm not too fond of it, its nothing complexed or worth a 30000 word essay or a 30 minute video fully breaking it down, the story and gameplay just aren't enjoyable for me and i don't like it when people claim that i must have a greater reason then that for disliking the holy grail that saved the series from doom which is why i'm not sucking its cock along with them.

What if the cock is lubricated?

But seriously, no one is forcing you to like Awakening. So I don't really see the problem with that.

[Delphi Sage]

But seriously, no one is forcing you to like Awakening. So I don't really see the problem with that.

I know this has nothing to do with me, but I remind you all that "This game saved the franchise" is regularly used as a catch-all argument/conversation ender for every single criticism of FE13.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

I know this has nothing to do with me, but I remind you all that "This game saved the franchise" is regularly used as a catch-all argument/conversation ender for every single criticism of FE13.

i was just about to bring up this point, but this is used on every website, including this one

and i do know it did save the franchise, that doesn't mean i have to like it, but after you get told this so many times over it does feel like people are forcing you to like it.

Edited March 20, 2015 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[IceBrand]

i was just about to bring up this point, but this is used on every website, including this one

and i do know it did save the franchise, that doesn't mean i have to like it, but after you get told this so many times over it does feel like people are forcing you to like it.

I see. Ignore those peeps. Trying to make someone like something and vice-versa only pushes other even further.

[Saladus]

Awakening's better with this, not because the story is great or superior to other entries but the delivery to the player. Each chapter's scenes are quite to the point providing the information the player needs to understand what is happening in the story.

Like how Validar was foiled with an asspull?

[Interceptor]

You're putting words in people's mouths. The complaints are not "Awakening's narrative is not really high class Grade A material", it's that "Awakening's narrative is weaker than many other games in the series".

Oh please. Inside three minutes of posting, I had someone on my nuts offering up Tellius as an example of rich story/characterization. Fire Emblem Reality Distortion Field is as strong as ever.

I don't think anyone really expects extremely high quality story from Fire Emblem, they mostly have servicable plot with some endearing characters or moments. That's all I'm asking for, and I'm pleased when there is slightly more (which there is sometimes). Awakening is not drastically below par in this respect but the cohesiveness of the story and how each chapter ties into the next is rather haphazard, especially in the second half.

Awakening delivers an entertaining, emotional roller coaster ride of a story. That's already beyond what can reasonably be expected from a game in this franchise. It's not a failing of the game if it can't stir the feels of a cynic, or of someone who can't suspend their disbelief. You're off the reservation as soon as you start talking about the "cohesiveness" of its story, just like if someone takes issue with the realism of the weapon triangle.

Only the FE12 gaidens (all awful additions to a concise game) and a significant portion of Blazing Sword fall into this trap as well.

EDIT: Actually I guess Radiant Dawn too.

You know, after a certain number of examples something stops being an exception and starts indicating a trend.

[Kysafen]

Expecting a high-quality story from a Fire Emblem game is like expecting Arby's to carry filet mignon. It has never happened before, and probably never will in the future, so this remains one of the more hilarious (to me, anyway) complaints abut Awakening. This game's plot is nothing more than a binding agent for the gameplay, like mayo in a tuna fish sandwich.

There are places in this world for rich stories and characterization, and some of those places are video games, but Fire Emblem ain't one of 'em.

Status quo isn't an argument.

It's just an excuse not to try.

A lame one.

[Saladus]

Especially when past FEs have handled major parts of Awakening better.

[Baldrick]

If people are happy eating at Arby's, then filet mignon is probably wasted on them anyway.

Before Awakening, the AI did not have any good counter for standard strategies like the super-unit, dodgetanking etc. So don't assume the series cannot evolve and improve itself.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Baldrick

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

If people are happy eating at Arby's, then filet mignon is probably wasted on them anyway.

Before Awakening, the AI did not have any good counter for standard strategies like the super-unit, dodgetanking etc. So don't assume the series cannot evolve and improve itself.

anything can evolve and improve as a series, the real question is, will it?

time will tell when 14's released, and i am lookin forward to seeing if it does, but that topic should be in the 14 board so i'll drop it.

[Delphi Sage]

Interceptor, you're taking a very defeatist stance on this issue. "All Fire Emblem games have crap stories"? What story in any kind of fiction has ever stood the test of harsh, nitpicky scrutiny? Don't single out Fire Emblem for this criticism.

What the fans of this series want out of it varies from person to person, depending on their interests and their jumping-on point.

For example, what you seem to want, Interceptor, is a pure video game like Super Mario Bros; with no story, no character, just entertaining arcade-style gameplay with no distractions and just enough in-universe justification to feel like stuff is happening. Not much different to what the FESS Old Guard wanted out of the series, with the ability to find a consistent pattern to ever-guaranteed, RNG-proof S-Rank runs.

There's the fanfic community, which wants semi-realistic, angsty characters they can fawn over and make wild headcanons about love triangles and allegiance.

And then there's people like me, Kai, RJWalker, Onmi, Banzai, and others, who want a story that can make entertaining scenarios, consistent characterization, balanced character dynamics, and a satisfaction that'll keep them playing the game over and over, even if the gameplay is a little lacking.

None of these viewpoints are in any way wrong, so for you to go thumbing your nose at us like we're a bunch of whiny fanboys who "can't cope with their games becoming mainstream" just comes off as rude IMO.