Look in Here!

[Fox]

Let's all sit down, folks.

As some of you have become aware, I no longer hold moderator status on Serenes Forest. I would like to explain to you why this happened, since it's most likely that Jyosua will not broach the topic without a little nudge.

Two days ago, I expressed dissatisfaction with the leadership on Serenes in the Ashtray's IRC channel. As it stands, one of our administrators, Lord Glenn, appears to have disappeared from the face of the Earth entirely. The webmaster, Vincent, who is a very nice guy, seems to make a point of avoiding the forums, for which, considering the current state of things, I can hardly blame him for. And of course, there's Jyosua, who is rarely ever on, and when he is, it's generally to complain on the staff board about his most recent encounter with Everyone's Favorite Member.

The conversation soon evolved from idle complaints to "let's do something about this," so Jyo was invited to take part in the discussion. Many of you have seen how that panned out. The logs of the conversation—a conversation which was public in every sense of the word—were posted on Serenes for members to see. Because the thread has been made invisible, and because the original creator of the topic was banned, I'd like to repost the logs for those who have not yet read what occurred.

* Jyosua (~Otosareta@sa-FF.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net) has joined theashtray

<&Fox> ah

<Vhailor> hey Josh

<Jyosua> What now?

<Vhailor> good to see ya

<&Fox> now please allow me to copypastah an inconvenient truth

<&Fox> <&Fox> Vincent is useless.

<&Fox> <&Fox> LG is nowhere to be seen.

<&Fox> <~Blacken> I take pride in that, just for the record.

<&Fox> <~Blacken> )

<&Fox> <&Fox> I know you do.

<&Fox> <@HUGE_WALRUS> Reinstate NTG

<&Fox> <&Fox> One of our mods has also gone AWOL

<&Fox> <@HUGE_WALRUS> You?

<&Fox> <&Fox> Hanz

<&Fox> <&Fox> and Red Fox is a derp

<&Fox> <@HUGE_WALRUS> Put me in charge so that I might engage in a brutal series of crackdowns and purges

<&Fox> <&Fox> Wist left the team, which is regretable

<&Fox> <@HUGE_WALRUS> goddamn I am hard now

<&Fox> <&Fox> I wish I could, HUGE_WALRUS

<&Fox> <&Fox> NTG didn't too much for the forum, unfortunately

<&Fox> <&Fox> she hasn't posted in ages

<&Fox> <&Fox> it's obvious she and Vincent couldn't really care any less about the forum, and given that it's a shithole and a stain on their site, I don't blame them

<&Fox> <&Fox> maybe I should show some balls and like, mention something on the staff board.

<&Fox> fucked up my delivery but whatevs

<&Fox> that was preceeded by,

<&Fox> <&Fox> we have no competent admins on SF

<&Fox> <&Fox> Jyo is barely around, and when he is, it's usually when something goes wrong/he's butthurt about something Blacken told him

<Vhailor> would someone kindly remind me who the hell is the RED Faux?

<Vhailor> is it that global mod chick?

<Vhailor> or amy getting confused?

<@HUGE_WALRUS> Yes.

<&Fox> the one who never should have been a mod to begin with.

<Jyosua> Okay, your point?

<Vhailor> don't tell me she was promoted to admin?

<&Fox> my point is that

<&Fox> the leadership on SF sucks

<&Fox> things need to be happening

<&Fox> and the people who have the ability to make things happen

<&Fox> are never on

<Vhailor> well I still think it has made a great leap

<&Fox> or ambivalent

<Vhailor> since Josh has started being a real authority

<Vhailor> back when I popped over there the SFers had no respect for him

<Jyosua> It would help if I was on more, but that simply can't happen.

<&Fox> see

<&Fox> this is the problem.

<Jyosua> I have far too much going on right now

<Jyosua> And I have no clue where the fuck Glenn is

<Jyosua> Vincent is more of a webmaster than anything else

<&Fox> LG said he'd be away indefinitely if I recall correctly

<Vhailor> Vincent is a nice guy

<Vhailor> unfit for cockslapping idiots

<~Blacken> Alright, back. Excuse me while I get out my lecturing sunglasses.

<&Fox> I think you need to take a look at changing the leadership on SF.

<~Blacken> Gimme some space here for a sec.

<Jyosua> I would, if that were possible

<Jyosua> but it's not

<Vhailor> (you tell me when to pop the solo guys)

<&Fox> (get ready Fredin)

<~Blacken> Jyosua I will preface this by saying that you are a decent enough dude, and most of the time you try to do the right thing.

* Vhailor pulls out his bass

<~Blacken> These are pluses. Most people are not the former and don't try to do the latter.

* Vhailor plugs it in

<~Blacken> There is always a "that said" in this, and the "that said" is a big one you are not temperamentally suited to the role you are in.

<~Blacken> None of your staff really is, Fox included.

<~Blacken> Any disagreement from the peanut gallery?

<Jyosua> And you wouldn't be either, Ed.

<Vhailor> I think with enough time

<Vhailor> Josh could be become good

<Vhailor> this things take time

<Jyosua> So don't even think about it.

* ~Blacken picardsighs

<Vhailor> and he's definitely talking the right direction

<Vhailor> taking*

<~Blacken> Jesus fuck, are you a defensive little prick.

<~Blacken> Anyone think I was going to suggest anything to do with me? Even bring me up?

<~Blacken> Show of hands.

<&Fox> didn't really

<Vhailor> I fell a temptation to do the solo now

<Vhailor> feel*

<~Blacken> Now that you have been enlightened as to the error of your assumptions, I shall proceed.

<Jyosua> If all you're going to tell me, is get new staff, then you can save it.

<~Blacken> Jesus. Fuck.

<Vhailor> let the man finish Josh

<~Blacken> Anyone think I was going to say that?

<~Blacken> Show of hands?

<Jyosua> Because I'm already aware of the problems with the staff. ._.

<Vhailor> here is my reply http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=rekgznpOg

<~Blacken> Here is the core of your problem you attempt to instill a culture that cannot hold with a memberbase that is, to put it gently, in the tardvan.

<~Blacken> But at the same time, you do not address the problems that generate such a memberbase.

<~Blacken> (Because I think everyone can agree that the culture itself is not a bad thing, and really a good idea.)

* Vhailor breaks some sweat

* Fox sets mode +m

* Fox sets mode +v Jyosua

<~Blacken> Beat me to it. p

<+Jyosua> I was about to say, smooth move.

<~Blacken> Any idea where the roots of those problems lie, Josh?

<+Jyosua> but you wouldn't have heard me

* Vhailor is now known as Mad_Fredin

* Timer activated

* Fox sets mode +b *!*@sa-DF.cpe.intercable.net

* Timer halted

* Mad_Fredin was kicked by Fox (Fox)

<+Jyosua> lol

<~Blacken> I like the cut of your jib.

<~Blacken> Seriously, though. The roots of your problem are pretty evident to me, at least, and I'm pretty sure they won't surprise anyone here.

<~Blacken> (And no, it's not "they're a bunch of fucking eleven-year-olds")

<+Jyosua> Damnit

<+Jyosua> /

<+Jyosua> That excuse always works D

<~Blacken> True, but even eleven-year-olds can be forced to act like humans.

<+Jyosua> If you're going to say rules, or in the way they're enforced...

<~Blacken> Actually, yes. But that's a secondary cause.

<~Blacken> Here's the problem your staff are horrible role models.

<~Blacken> Not all.

<+Jyosua> Oh

<+Jyosua> That

<+Jyosua> well I already knew that

<~Blacken> Even some of the dumb ones are decent folks.

<~Blacken> Popo, for example.

<+Jyosua> and the foxes aren't helping

<~Blacken> Good person. Dumb as a post. But a good person.

* Fox sets mode -b *!*@sa-DF.cpe.intercable.net

<+Jyosua> Sorry Fox, but you're a miniblacken

<~Blacken> I would argue that Fox is neither a plus or a minus on that score, to be honest.

* Vhailor (~juliofred@sa-DF.cpe.intercable.net) has joined theashtray

<~Blacken> Nonsense.

<+Jyosua> He is!

<~Blacken> Not really. Unless having a sense of humor counts.

<+Jyosua> Okay

<+Jyosua> I'll change my wording

<+Jyosua> He's a cookiecutter ashtray member. All have the same sense of humor

<+Jyosua> and disregard for the rules

<+Jyosua> Though he gets away with it usually because he's staff

<+Jyosua> which doesn't help

<~Blacken> I wouldn't say that, in any way shape or form, we all have the "same sense of humor."

<~Blacken> Nor would I say we have a disregard for thoughtfully designed and implemented rules.

<+Jyosua> He reminds me of you and Sword Saint

<+Jyosua> aka HUGE WALRUS

<+Jyosua> -_-

<~Blacken> Yes, I know who he is.

<@HUGE_WALRUS> I get away with it because I'm usually right

<~Blacken> ^

<@HUGE_WALRUS> and frankly, your staff doesn't seem to have the balls to do anything about it regardless

<~Blacken> ^

<+Jyosua> -_- I'm aware of that.

<@HUGE_WALRUS> I'm kind of doing a service

<~Blacken> Let me take another tack.

<+Jyosua> If I could, I'd flush the staff and replace them all

<@HUGE_WALRUS> upsetting and driving away retards

<@HUGE_WALRUS> hurf

<+Jyosua> but

<@HUGE_WALRUS> well

<+Jyosua> I have nowhere to pull new staff from

<@HUGE_WALRUS> Hi, welcome to FESS

<~Blacken> Jyosua There are two kinds of members who are on the edges of "problem" as you have taken to define it.

<@HUGE_WALRUS> (though we didn't really get "staff must be purged" issues)

<~Blacken> One is us mild assholes (and if you think I'm more than minor you've never met a real artist) who happen to not follow rules that even you will admit are vague and pretty arbitrary.

<~Blacken> The other is this the group of subnormal...people (using the word physically hurts, so you'd better thank me) who drag down the level of discourse quite effectively.

<~Blacken> Have you ever noticed any of us tee off on someone who is not in that group?

<~Blacken> (Honest question, because I don't think we have.)

<+Jyosua> Other than me? No.

<~Blacken> (You've earned it. To your credit, you are starting to come around more often.)

<~Blacken> Now look at it from a cost-benefit point of view.

<+Jyosua> ...

<~Blacken> No, I'm being quite serious.

<+Jyosua> You have a very utilitarian method of doing things

<~Blacken> Oh fuck yes. What else works?

<+Jyosua> A nice mixture

<~Blacken> Did you ever stop to think that you would not have the former group if the latter weren't boils on your ass?

<+Jyosua> /

<~Blacken> If the problems did not exist to cause them, why would anyone have cause to smack them?

<~Blacken> I guess what it kind of boils down to is this--you call Fox a "miniBlacken", but who has been more effective at keeping discussion out of tardville?

<~Blacken> (And yes, this does all form a defense of Fox, I did get sidetracked)

<+Jyosua> Fox moderates well

<+Jyosua> but as a rolemodel

<+Jyosua> he fails

<~Blacken> Arguably I would say he is much different from me I am without argument or apology there to make subhumans cry.

<~Blacken> What difference is there?

<~Blacken> He demonstrates awesomeness as far as being an intelligent, cogent poster goes.

<+Jyosua> I miss Wist. /

<~Blacken> Wist was pretty much your one non-retard.

<+Jyosua> Why'd he have to quit

<~Blacken> (Where'd he go off to, anyway?)

* Fox sets mode +v Blue

<+Blue> Honestly, as far as Fox not being a role model goes

<+Blue> It seems like your argument there is that he doesn't put up with too much shit

<~Blacken> See? This is why I keep these people around, they're smarter than I am and I get to take credit.

<+Jyosua> No, he doesn't. He has no tolerance, and I am urked by lack of tolerance, when it comes to staff members.

<~Blacken> Why should staff have tolerance of stupid?

<~Blacken> Why should anyone?

<+Blue> Tolerance is not as black and white as the "tolerant" would have you believe.

<+Jyosua> I'm not saying they should tolerate it completely,

<~Blacken> Yes, you are.

<+Blue> ^

<+Blue> Honestly?

<~Blacken> Because taking an ounce of shit means you'd better be taking all of it.

<+Jyosua> But I do think they shouldn't be a complete dick because someone did something stupid.

<+Blue> If I may speak for Fox for a moment.

<~Blacken> What is a better rectifier of stupid behavior than excoriation?

<&Fox> sure, Blue.

<+Blue> Most of the things he is "intolerant" about are things that he's put up with for far too long anyway.

<~Blacken> ^

<~Blacken> Josh, the people you don't want are the people who get butthurt when somebody calls them out.

<~Blacken> Let's take the past couple days for example.

<&Fox> see desktop thread

<~Blacken> Precisely.

<~Blacken> Or Cynthia's thread.

<+Blue> Now, some of my assessments could be entirely off.

<~Blacken> My posts boiled down to "you are posting utter, utter shit."

<~Blacken> And no, they weren't nice.

<~Blacken> There's no nice way to say "fuck you, you're full of shit."

<+Blue> I haven't really been paying much attention to SF... at all lately, and these assessments are based almost purely on what I know of these people.

* Blacken sets mode +v Vhailor

<+Jyosua> Yes there is

<+Jyosua> it called

<~Blacken> Jyosua And make it effective?

<+Jyosua> "You have no clue what you're talking about"

<~Blacken> Again and make it effective?

<~Blacken> Did you not see the results (cf. Cynthia's thread) at "you have no clue what you're talking about"?

<~Blacken> "Well, anything can be done if you're smart enough

<+Jyosua> I don't have time for this

<~Blacken> Do you even understand what we're driving at?

<~Blacken> Are you even bothering to try?

<+Jyosua> I need to prepare for real life which happens tomorrow

<+Blue> That'll either be "So what? You don't have to pay attention." or "You have no clue what I'm trying to say."

<~Blacken> Blue++

<+Blue> Both of which are a product of a juvenile "I am rubber; you are glue" mentality.

<~Blacken> When you foster carebear, Josh, you ruin any possibility of honest discourse.

<~Blacken> Do you want honest discourse?

<~Blacken> Yes or no.

<+Vhailor> Josh

<+Jyosua> Good day gentlemen.

<+Vhailor> don't try to run away because you're cornered

<~Blacken> Answer the question.

+Jyosua (~Otosareta@sa-FF.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net) Quit (Quit )

Following that, on AIM, taking place between Jyosua and Blacken:

(2:08:45 AM) Crystal Eli: I told you, I'm busy

(2:08:49 AM) Me (AIM): Answer the question.

(2:08:52 AM) Me (AIM): Right here is fine.

(2:08:57 AM) Me (AIM): [02:07] <~Blacken> When you foster carebear, Josh, you ruin any possibility of honest discourse.

(2:09:03 AM) Me (AIM): [02:07] <~Blacken> Do you want honest discourse?

(2:09:05 AM) Me (AIM): Yes or no?

(2:09:07 AM) Crystal Eli: I saw what you said

(2:09:13 AM) Me (AIM): Answer the question or it goes on your site.

(2:09:15 AM) Crystal Eli: But I disagree

(2:09:17 AM) Me (AIM): And people will see it.

(2:09:23 AM) Me (AIM): Do you want honest discourse? Yes or no.

(2:09:26 AM) Crystal Eli: no

(2:09:35 AM) Crystal Eli: But I still don't think you're right

(2:09:43 AM) Crystal Eli: I mean yes

(2:09:47 AM) Crystal Eli: fuck

(2:10:18 AM) Me (AIM): Put simply: we will excise your community of its problem elements if you can't. If you find the ability to do so, we won't have to and you can stop bitching about us.

(2:11:02 AM) Crystal Eli: If you break the rules, I will not hesitate to treat you exactly how I treat the others

(2:11:05 AM) Crystal Eli: remember that

(2:11:10 AM) Me (AIM): And you'll toast your forum in doing so.

(2:11:20 AM) Me (AIM): Do you want a slavishly rules-followed forum or do you want a good forum?

(2:11:33 AM) Me (AIM): The two, based on your ruleset, are not compatible.

(2:11:54 AM) Me (AIM): I'd be happy to offer constructive suggestions on how to develop a ruleset to achieve that goal, but you won't take it.

(2:11:56 AM) Crystal Eli: There needs to be a certain level of order

(2:12:02 AM) Crystal Eli: you are disrupting it

(2:12:07 AM) Me (AIM): Do you really think your choice of rules has any sort of order to it?

(2:12:20 AM) Me (AIM): Furthermore, do you honestly think that our disruptions are worse than the alternative?

(2:12:33 AM) Crystal Eli: They aren't helping

(2:12:42 AM) Crystal Eli: they're just making the forum look hostile

(2:12:43 AM) Me (AIM): Really? Because whatever you say about us, you cannot ever say that we do not challenge the shitposters to raise their game.

(2:12:58 AM) Me (AIM): Isn't that the most important component of quality discourse?

(2:13:04 AM) Crystal Eli: look I'm busy I need to go

(2:13:06 AM) Me (AIM): Is it not?

(2:13:11 AM) Crystal Eli has signed off.

I allowed these logs to be posted on Serenes, initially, for the sole purpose that I believed it would be beneficial to the members and staff to see them. What I expected was honest discussion with the administration, but unfortunately, the topic was set to invisible and the member who posted the logs was banned. Jyo is, at the very least, eager to protect his pride.

I was taken off the staff following a later conversation where I stated that I encouraged the posting of the conversation from the evening July second.

Congratulations, Jyosua. You got rid of one of the last people who still actively cares about your cesspool of a site.

Now, you can prove me right by deleting this topic and banning me, hoping that the members who've seen this topic will simply forget about it, or you can grow a pair and discuss the issue with me, Blacken, your staff and the members of your site.

I know you'll do the right thing.

[NoNameAtAll]

It's a pity to hear, Fox.

You were a good mod, IMO.

Also, I backed up that convo on a TXT file. I'll likely save the topic in case it's set to invisible.

Edited July 4, 2009 by NoNameAtAll

[WyvernSageLord]

Great, another fucking cesspool of drama. ~_~

[NoNameAtAll]

Great, another fucking cesspool of drama. ~_~

Not really. I see exactly where Fox is coming from.

[Defeatist Elitist]

Holyshit, I didn't think you'd get unmodded ever man.

[Erk]

Wait, who made the first one?

[General Spoon]

He got banned for making that topic?

@above post: I believe it was that HolsetyExcaliburRexcalibur guy.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Miror B.

[Fireman]

He got banned for making that topic?

@above post: I believe it was that HolsetyExcaliburRexcalibur guy.

It was Blueen.

[General Spoon]

It was Blueen.

Oh.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Miror B.

[Shuuda]

Damn it all Fox, I hate to you get depromoted like that.

[Cynthia]

Interesting conversation. I saw it before, but I think Fox elaborated on it a little better.

Blacken sure was riled up wasn't he? Well nothing much to say, but I hope this works out in a manner that is beneficial to everyone, or if not everyone, the majority of those involved. I'm sure a compromise that is satisfactory can be reached.

[Blacken]

Blacken sure was riled up wasn't he?

No.

[Loki Laufeyson]

When a MOD becomes concerned with the leadership and whatnot of a forum, its pretty scary. Theres alot of stuff that goes on us lowly members dont see. Its pretty sad that someone would go to such lengths to keep his e-peen intact.

but still. its rubbish and im sorry Fox. D:

[Cynthia]

What EXACTLY was being gotten at with this conversation? And what specifically did you propose to do about the situation stated. I am quite interested in hearing.

[NoNameAtAll]

Topic's been archived here. Just to show that, right now, there's no drama, or anything of the sort. So there'd be no reason to hide/delete it.

[Kriemhild]

This is... interesting. When the higher-ups (losing modship doesn't necessarily make the other members look at Fox differently) start being concerned about the leadership of the forum, the situation could turn out really bad for the general masses because the dispute is most definitely going to hit them while they have little knowledge and involvement in any of this. I think it was a good idea to post those in the forum and if Jyo deletes this topic without responding to it, I'll have serious doubts of whether he's even trying to fix the situation. And if that's the case, the life expectancy of this forum is most likely going to be puny.

[NoNameAtAll]

He probably will hide/delete the topic, Lightbrand. >_>

Edited July 5, 2009 by NoNameAtAll

[lolDeath]

Haha.

[book of life]

All I see are a few issues here and there. But all mortals have issues, so it's nothing new.

It's just a matter of how it's handled.

@Urist/Fox: No regrets, right?

[NoNameAtAll]

All I see are a few issues here and there. But all mortals have issues, so it's nothing new.

It's just a matter of how it's handled.

From what I can see, it's being handled very poorly. :\

Demodding because of that? I mean, honestly. >_>

[lolDeath]

Because moderator status means everything to Fox. Might as well chop his cock off and feed it to the dogs.

[uguu]

Because my internet sucks until monday I am forced to type and post this again because it did not go through the first time. I am not surprised at all to see what Jyo decided to do with this.

[NoNameAtAll]

Because moderator status means everything to Fox. Might as well chop his cock off and feed it to the dogs.

Never said (or meant) it meant something to him.

I just think it was poorly handled.

[lolDeath]

EBERTUGING

[Cynthia]

To be honest, if Fox thinks the staff is poor, he should be glad to no longer be associated with it shouldn't he?