FE7 HHM Unranked Tier List v4

[Anouleth]

I remember when we all used to argue with Inui about stupid shit like OswinxDorcas A but if you look at any of my S Rank runs (go back a bunch of topics and maybe even 2 pages), you'll realize that GBA supports (FE6 excluded) are overrated. They can be used to help a character but should never be actively relied on.

I think it depends, a few supports are worth using. Like HarkenxIsadora (lolol DarkxFire).

btw, why is Canas above Erk?

Edited January 14, 2011 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth

[Anouleth]

delete

Edited January 14, 2011 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth

[grandjackal]

btw, why is Canas above Erk?

Early promotion pending it's quite close, but Canas wins out for the following reasons.

1. Lvl 8 base means he only needs 2 levels to promtoe vs Erk's 9. Assuming Lyn's mode, it would mean more we could funnel the EXP to someone else while having something better for when Canas shows up. 10/1 considered, they would tie speed while Canas has 1 more magic and a stronger Flux for his weapon. Canas will always win magic, and though Erk has a higher speed growth, it will only start taking effect 10 levels later. Basically we pay less for more. If not assuming Lyn's mode, Erk's pretty boned when it comes to the levels.

2. Canas and Erk tie durability again with the 10/1, but Canas wins growths. Very minor point, but it only adds on considerng Canas is basically winning already.

Essentially Canas is just a better Erk. Sure, Erk has availability but it comes with an EXP pricetag, and his early performance isn't exactly stellar. He's got Eliwood-like speed, and while magic and range is indefinitely better than whatever the hell Eliwood's doing that early, we're not nearly as dependent on it so hsi availability isn't as huge a win. Then there's another minor point in that Canas has weird bits of uniqueness that make him harder to replace than Erk is (whom Pent just shows up and laughs at his student's face). Little gimmicks, like Nosferatu allowing him a unique ability in that he doesn't necessarily need a healer or an item to heal himself while doing at least some damage, and later on he has Luna for annoying shit like Valkyries. I would mention Fenrir, but that comes with the trouble of actually getting it, and it being meh for it's intended use of doing heavier chip to things he doesn't double anyways, and 70 acc on fast enemies like Heroes is probably not a good idea, so I think we can pretend that Fenrir doesn't exist.

So, the reason Canas is above Erk is because...Basically, he can replace him and more than make up the difference for cheaper. But, it IS pretty close.

[Narga_Rocks]

I think it depends, a few supports are worth using. Like HarkenxIsadora (lolol DarkxFire).

btw, why is Canas above Erk?

btw, why did you double post?

[Anouleth]

btw, why did you double post?

Forgetfulness? Sorry.

[Don Draper]

.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Don Draper

[Florete]

I remember when we all used to argue with Inui about stupid shit like OswinxDorcas A but if you look at any of my S Rank runs (go back a bunch of topics and maybe even 2 pages), you'll realize that GBA supports (FE6 excluded) are overrated. They can be used to help a character but should never be actively relied on.

If you look at my S rank run, you'll realize that LynxFlorina is a huge help >_>.

Well, I guess there's not really anything to look at since I didn't catalog the whole thing (only real evidence would be Lyn's high level), so I'll say it now: It was a huge help. I wouldn't be so adamant about it if it wasn't.

[Geriba]

I love seeing Jaffar7 around here. Jaffar, we've missed your ass. Dearly.

I'm going to back the Lyn > Eliwood argument. Aside from me liking Lyn a lot more, her earlygame is much better than Eliwood's. And we shouldn't be arguing for 2 pages on how fast or slow a Florina support is because let's face it, unless you're dondon when it comes to placing people (fucking meticulous as hell), the support is never really going to matter unless you purposely make it matter.

I remember when we all used to argue with Inui about stupid shit like OswinxDorcas A but if you look at any of my S Rank runs (go back a bunch of topics and maybe even 2 pages), you'll realize that GBA supports (FE6 excluded) are overrated. They can be used to help a character but should never be actively relied on.

Hey man, much appreciated! You're definitely right about how the importance of supports has waned over the years. Today, even C and B supports are pushing it; A-level supports are a complete rarity.

And Yui, I've started prepping my analysis, but because I don't want to get too bogged down in the debate over the practicality of Florina/Lyn, I'll do two sets of stats- those with your estimated time for Florina/Lyn A, and those with my estimated time for the same- and see if it makes a difference. If it does, then we'll be in a really interesting situation; if not, then there was never a need to get caught in such a triviality. Sound fair?

EDIT: Since I got called out last time on double-posting, let me just stuff this comment in here...

Early promotion pending it's quite close, but Canas wins out for the following reasons.

1. Lvl 8 base means he only needs 2 levels to promtoe vs Erk's 9. Assuming Lyn's mode, it would mean more we could funnel the EXP to someone else while having something better for when Canas shows up. 10/1 considered, they would tie speed while Canas has 1 more magic and a stronger Flux for his weapon. Canas will always win magic, and though Erk has a higher speed growth, it will only start taking effect 10 levels later. Basically we pay less for more. If not assuming Lyn's mode, Erk's pretty boned when it comes to the levels.

2. Canas and Erk tie durability again with the 10/1, but Canas wins growths. Very minor point, but it only adds on considerng Canas is basically winning already.

Essentially Canas is just a better Erk. Sure, Erk has availability but it comes with an EXP pricetag, and his early performance isn't exactly stellar. He's got Eliwood-like speed, and while magic and range is indefinitely better than whatever the hell Eliwood's doing that early, we're not nearly as dependent on it so hsi availability isn't as huge a win. Then there's another minor point in that Canas has weird bits of uniqueness that make him harder to replace than Erk is (whom Pent just shows up and laughs at his student's face). Little gimmicks, like Nosferatu allowing him a unique ability in that he doesn't necessarily need a healer or an item to heal himself while doing at least some damage, and later on he has Luna for annoying shit like Valkyries. I would mention Fenrir, but that comes with the trouble of actually getting it, and it being meh for it's intended use of doing heavier chip to things he doesn't double anyways, and 70 acc on fast enemies like Heroes is probably not a good idea, so I think we can pretend that Fenrir doesn't exist.

So, the reason Canas is above Erk is because...Basically, he can replace him and more than make up the difference for cheaper. But, it IS pretty close.

Once we've resolved Eliwood/Lyn to a satisfactory degree, I'm gonna debate the hell out of this one. I see Erk as an absolute lock.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Jaffar7

[RNG Princess]

Louise seems to be way too low.

[grandjackal]

Once we've resolved Eliwood/Lyn to a satisfactory degree, I'm gonna debate the hell out of this one. I see Erk as an absolute lock.

You do realize that Erk starts in a deep hole of needing 9 levels to Canas's 2 to be simply inferior to Canas, right? Look at their 10/1 stats, see they're basically identical if not for the fact Canas has 1 more Mag and a stronger Flux for slight better offense. He's literally beating him until 10/11, where Erk starts to pull ahead in speed...By 1 point.

I don't see how Erk is an absolute lock when he needs 9 levels of experience just to have us be worse off than if we just used Canas.

Louise seems to be way too low.

She's right where she needs to be.

[Balcerzak]

She's right where she needs to be.

Under Karel and Jaffar though...? Maybe I'll draw up some comparisons later.

[Florete]

Under Karel and Jaffar though...? Maybe I'll draw up some comparisons later.

Bow lock and 12 Str. I'm inclined to agree with her position.

[dondon151]

You do realize that Erk starts in a deep hole of needing 9 levels to Canas's 2 to be simply inferior to Canas, right? Look at their 10/1 stats, see they're basically identical if not for the fact Canas has 1 more Mag and a stronger Flux for slight better offense. He's literally beating him until 10/11, where Erk starts to pull ahead in speed...By 1 point.

I don't see how Erk is an absolute lock when he needs 9 levels of experience just to have us be worse off than if we just used Canas.

It's quite simple. Erk is around earlier. Canas is like, completely worthless in the context of efficiency. Erk can also double without using a Guiding Ring.

And there's Lyn Mode. Are you forgetting about it? Or are you purposely trying to look stupid?

[grandjackal]

It's quite simple. Erk is around earlier. Canas is like, completely worthless in the context of efficiency. Erk can also double without using a Guiding Ring.

Double what exactly? What level are we assuming when he comes out of Lyn mode now with Sain running around on a killing spree? Due to limited availability in Lyn's mode and probably less priority to get EXP over some other units alongside Sain (like Kent and possibly Florina for instance), I'm willing to bet that Erk coming out of Lyn's mode at any reasonable level is not as likely as once assumed. Proof that Erk might have a tidbit of issue is because if that is indeed the case, Erk might end up having the same speed issue Eliwood does does early on. For example, his joining mission of chapter 14. He needs to be level 7 to double the slowest enemy next to the 1 armor that is standing right next to him and most likely going to die when Erk is an NPC. 6 levels for him out of Lyn mode does not sound reasonable to me in the first place, so it might be more troublesome than that. With 12 mt fi using Fire, he can't even ORKO anything either. Comes close, but not cutting it. He'd like to use Thunder to do that, but Thunder weighs him down by a point and he'd fail to double 6 AS enemies with 9 AS.

So yeah, sure he can double without a Ring. Problem is we still have to work him up to that point, just like we could with Canas regardless. Seeing as his early performance still isn't that fantastic unless we assume a rather inflated level for him, I would consider Erk's availability to be no consequence.

Are you forgetting about it?

I am not forgetting it, rather I am riding with the brand new assumption of it that EXP is quite a bit tighter than normal in Lyn's Mode due to Sain's newfound potential.

Or are you purposely trying to look stupid?

What, is it "Be an Arrogant Cock When Someone Doesn't Read Your Mind for Any Real Point You Failed to Flesh Out" week?. Tell us then, oh wise pope of whom we must bow to kiss the ass of wherever he may walk, what early contributions Erk may have instead of just blurting out "He comes earlier and both are equally pointless, so I have no real point to make unless you do it for me".

[Anouleth]

It's quite simple. Erk is around earlier. Canas is like, completely worthless in the context of efficiency. Erk can also double without using a Guiding Ring.

And there's Lyn Mode. Are you forgetting about it? Or are you purposely trying to look stupid?

Experience gained in Lyn Mode could go to another character, apparently. I personally think it's ridiculous to assign an opportunity cost to CEXP, but that's just me.

[Dark Sage]

If we're going to assume a unit is going to be used seriously and they come in LHM, they should get some amount of experience.

Now my for the most part, I was efficient in LHM, having near identical turn counts to Colonel M sans 10 (Rain and Lundgren and his damanbleness killed turn counts there) and focused on funneling kills to Sain and Kent. Erk came out at level 5. Simply put, he has uses early on and can gain some exp for fighting in the chapters he's in and Canas isn't. Fact is, throwing lightning bolts and shit is still contributing, which is something Erk can do and Canas can't.

What, is it "Be an Arrogant Cock When Someone Doesn't Read Your Mind for Any Real Point You Failed to Flesh Out" week?.

I find this quote hilarious since you're being much ruder to dondon than he ever was to you. Do you have some kind of bone to pick with him? Chill out man.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Erk is questionable all game- efficient playthroughs of Lyn Mode have had Erk come out at Level 5, and that's before Sain, which tenses up EXP even further. That means that he's probably in a 5 level deficit compared to Canas. The chapters that Erk is around are chapters where Marcus is busy raping the ever-loving fuck out of everything.

Then you get to a more "direct" comparison. While Erk may be doubling things without a ring, "this is not a big deal" considering that you get a ring in the map after Canas joins AND a ring in Living Legend, and your healers aren't exactly levelling super-fast, so in reality there's very little competition for a ring. "Not needing a ring" doesn't count for a whole lot. As soon as Canas promotes, Erk's speed benefit disappears, but really, Canas' strength benefit never really goes away. Canas is also significantly better defensively.

So really, why is Canas "completely worthless in the context of efficiency"? Remember, this isn't "max efficiency" or even close to max.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Seven Deadly Sins

[grandjackal]

If we're going to assume a unit is going to be used seriously and they come in LHM, they should get some amount of experience.

Problem with this is priority, since with the new assumption of Sain killinating Lyn Mode to become Marcus's twin brother, Erk still doesn't top the list as a secondary exp choice. He's still got Kent and Florina to compete with. Even Lyn can find some headway on him, since it would appear that the reality is that Erk is merely a magical version of Eliwood.

Now my for the most part, I was efficient in LHM, having near identical turn counts to Colonel M sans 10 (Rain and Lundgren and his damanbleness killed turn counts there) and focused on funneling kills to Sain and Kent. Erk came out at level 5. Simply put, he has uses early on and can gain some exp for fighting in the chapters he's in and Canas isn't. Fact is, throwing lightning bolts and shit is still contributing, which is something Erk can do and Canas can't.

Even if we assumed lvl 7, 2 levels above this, he still wouldn't be fantastic since he still misses doubling the constant 7-8 AS units mucking about. Even more, looking at stats says he can't kill with fire, and can't double with thunder. Then let's put the newfound assumption of stricter EXP since we got Sain gaining most and there being tight competition for what little scraps he leaves, Erk is pretty boned even if he does reach lvl 5 under those conditions.

I find this quote hilarious since you're being much ruder to dondon than he ever was to you. Do you have some kind of bone to pick with him? Chill out man.

Blaaah, pardon me on that dondon,got a bit temper-headed. Got some flak form some dude in the new mystery forums for missing a point that was never made until he decided I was a retard for not reading his mind as to what he was talking about (Reverse Lunatic was never brought up and was never once at any point mentioned in the topic this happened, but apparently people expect me to put my non-existent latent psychic powers to realize their point without them having to type it up). Got a bit frustrated to see it again only coming out of someone who I know is better than that.

[dondon151]

Erk is questionable all game- efficient playthroughs of Lyn Mode have had Erk come out at Level 5, and that's before Sain, which tenses up EXP even further. That means that he's probably in a 5 level deficit compared to Canas. The chapters that Erk is around are chapters where Marcus is busy raping the ever-loving fuck out of everything.

The "discovery" of promoted Sain doesn't really affect Erk in any way, shape, or form. Before this discovery, efficient players concentrated EXP on Florina, Kent, and Sain. After this discovery, efficient players still concentrated EXP on Florina, Kent, and Sain, only to different degrees. Erk has been and always will be a low priority for LM EXP. That doesn't mean that he doesn't get any. Sain can't cover an entire map; I can probably get Erk to at least 4/0 in LM without even trying. He has 7 maps to gain 3 levels.

- In chapter 5, he starts closer to enemies than anyone else.

- Chapter 6, there are 2 combat fronts and he starts close to enemies.

- Chapter 7x is a rout and Erk can attack across the wall on the east side of the map.

- Chapter 8, Erk can get to the village if nothing else.

- Chapter 9, soldier and brigand reinforcements.

- Chapter 10, he'll run east across the map and should grab some combat.

When you consider the circumstances, they literally serve to make it impossible to not get Erk any EXP (and levels) in LM. I'm not even sure why we're having this discussion in the first place over a completely trivial, self-evident detail.

Then, you also claim that Erk can't gain any EXP in his HM chapters. That's bullshit. Chapter 14 is a rout and pretty much requires Erk in order to get a 5 turn clear (he starts the closest to some enemies anyway). Chapter 15 is defend, aka EXP heaven. True story: I got Erk from 1.00 to 3.63 in chapters 14 and 15 in 0% growths while killing Sealen on turn 2, which stops chapter 15 reinforcements. If Erk goes into chapter 14 at a conservative 4/0, he can come out of chapter 15 at 7/0. No joke. He has very little competition for his chapter 15 slot as well, with Dorcas, Bartre, Eliwood, and Rebecca being his only competitors. If we're using the Marcus drop strategy in chapter 16, Erk can grab free EXP while attempting to save the Red Gem village.

In summary, it's very easy to make Erk not have a level disadvantage compared to Canas in chapter 17x.

I also found this comment to be rather strange, considering the circumstances:

The chapters that Erk is around are chapters where Marcus is busy raping the ever-loving fuck out of everything.

Really, now? Did you conveniently neglect to mention that the chapters that Canas is around are chapters where Marcus AND Sain are busy raping the ever-loving fuck out of everything? If you are implying that Erk is trivialized by Marcus, then how badly is Canas being trivialized by Marcus and Sain? Hence, Canas is "completely worthless in the context of efficiency."

Then you get to a more "direct" comparison. While Erk may be doubling things without a ring, "this is not a big deal" considering that you get a ring in the map after Canas joins AND a ring in Living Legend, and your healers aren't exactly levelling super-fast, so in reality there's very little competition for a ring. "Not needing a ring" doesn't count for a whole lot.

Not needing a Guiding Ring is a big deal. I'm sure, first of all, that you're familiar with the fact that obtaining the chapter 18 and 23 Guiding Rings costs turns. Second, Lucius is a higher priority with C staves upon promotion. In the most efficient contexts, Canas won't even have a Guiding Ring with which to promote. For whatever reason it's not "fair" in this tier list to deny him those resources, but it's not right to just handwave the cost of a Guiding Ring.

As soon as Canas promotes, Erk's speed benefit disappears, but really, Canas' strength benefit never really goes away. Canas is also significantly better defensively.

Numbers do not seem to have been checked. Yes, Erk's spd lead disappears when both are at 11/1. Erk doesn't really lose atk, though. Thunder has 8 MT to Flux's 7 MT, and 11/1 Erk has 10 mag to 11/1 Canas's 11.35 mag. Erk wins atk with Elfire if both or neither double. Canas is also not significantly better defensively. At the cited levels, Canas has 27.1 HP, 7.75 def to Erk's 27.5 HP, 7 def. 23 atk 2HKOs both by a decent margin. 20 atk 3HKOs both.

I think the numbers and rhetoric speak for themselves, but I will summarize anyway: Erk does not have a level disadvantage compared to Canas when both are available, Erk does not lose statistical parameters to Canas at 11/1, and Canas is completely worthless in the context of efficiency.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

"canas is completely worthless in the context of efficiency"

stop

now

EDIT: Once we get past the whole "claiming a character that is equal to a "better" character but with ~5 chapters less availability is worthless" thing, Dondon is actually right. I'm restoring Erk > Canas, but not Erk > Lucius, and definitely not Canas > Lucius. The option of staff utility is just too much for them to get around.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Life]

Once we've resolved Eliwood/Lyn to a satisfactory degree, I'm gonna debate the hell out of this one. I see Erk as an absolute lock.

I will take you on, bitch. In fact, I challenge you to an official debate in the "debate section" for this one.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

dont do it its a trap

Seriously. dondon may be pushing my buttons but his numbers are absolutely right.

EDIT: Bringing up something actually interesting: Florina > Lowen (through either Lowen dropping, Florina rising, or both).

I'd personally like Lowen to drop to below Florina so that Sain and Kent are a tier up on Lowen, because really, they're that good (and he's that bad).

Edited January 15, 2011 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Geriba]

I will take you on, bitch. In fact, I challenge you to an official debate in the "debate section" for this one.

We still can, but sweet Jesus, I'm pretty sure dondon just made Canas Erk's bitch. Impressively succinct analysis, sir.

[Colonel M]

I still question Lucius hitting Level 10, period, but I don't have a whole lot to show it. And I really have an axe to grind against him anyway.

[Geriba]

Eliwood/Lyn Round 1: Fight!

Let's start this analysis on Chapter 12, skipping ahead of Lyn's Mode for now- though we will return, as there are a number of important questions which, when answered, will have effects that trickle down into Lyn's HHM performance. Eliwood's base stats:

HP	Pow	Skl	Spd	Def	Res	Luc	Con
18	 5	 5	 7	 5	 0	 7	 7

...and the stats of the rapier, a weapon which will prove essential to Eliwood's performance:

Rng	Wt	Mt	Hit	Crt	Uses
1	5	7	95	10	40

This puts Eliwood's base AS at 7 and his total strength at 12. Not too shabby. Of course, none of this means anything in isolation, so let's throw in some relevant enemy stats. Note that the main focus here is going to be on his offense, not his defense. The main issue with Eliwood is whether or not he can accrue enough kills to have his early-game match Lyn's, as well as determine his usefulness for those handful of chapters where Lyn's not around.

Chapter 12

Eliwood starts at the bottom part of the map, so he'll be battling brigands and, perhaps, an archer. Against the brigands, he's not doubling while doing 9-10 damage out of around 23, a little less than half. Of course, who on the south is performing better? There's Jesus on Wheels, of course, but he'll be rushing Zagan and leaving the scraps up to the other units in the brigade. Dorcas and Bartre have embarrassing hit percentages against these guys; Bartre's better off maintaining distance while doing chip damage with the hand axe, while Dorcas isn't going to one-shot them. What Dorcas can do, however, is (assuming a meager two-level gain in LHM, making his strength stat 8) reliably get the brigands within the single digits, making them the perfect target for the Wood. Lowen would like the kills, too, but it's probably better to make full use of his movement and have him rush northward; Marcus has the east covered. In all, then, it's reasonable to assume that Eliwood's gaining a level and a quarter here, thanks in no small part to kills from chip damage.

Eliwood @ Lv. 2.25 -> AS = 7; TS = 13.

Chapter 13

As we can see, the last chapter boosted Eliwood's strength up a point, but left speed at a frustrating 7.4. One level down the road, however, Eliwood's AS climbs to 8, which opens up some possibilities for doubling. The steel-bow archer, for example, is reliably doubled and brought down to critical HP values (and killed with a critical, of course); all other archers are in danger of being doubled, depending on how the RNG rolls their AS. Something quite depressing is how Eliwood fairs against soldiers. I expected he'd be able to one-round them at this point, but no such luck: thanks to the weapon-triangle penalties, Eliwood gets 25 HP soldiers down to one HP. This isn't all bad, as it means he can both set up and clean up easy kills... but it's rather disappointing.

Against the cavaliers here, however, is where we get to see the 2x rapier effect in action. That Eliwood doesn't one-round the cavaliers is hardly a problem, as no one on the team at this point except Hector (and with the obvious exception of Marcus) can hope to do the same. Yet he's doing an impressive 10-11 damage a pop, which I believe places him at third overall. Not terrible, especially considering this is where he's at his performance nadir. Don't get me wrong; this is no Lyn + Mani Katti output just yet- but it's getting there. Eliwood gaining another level and a quarter here is reasonable.

Eliwood @ Lv. 3.5 -> AS = 8; TS = 13.

Chapter 13x

Eliwood's doubling the steel axe brigands for 19-21 out of around 25 HP. He also avoids being doubled by Puzon, making him a potential candidate for that tasty Boss Exp. This is one of the toughest chapters of the early-game: every struggles except Marcus, but he's off rushing towards the village, so everyone else needs to chip in as best they can. Experience here is pretty evenly split between units who can hold their own, which would be Hector, Eliwood, Guy, Lowen, and maybe Dorcas, so Eliwood's not gaining more than a single level here.

Eliwood @ Lv. 4.5 -> AS = 8; TS = 13.

Chapter 14

Once Eliwood bridges the gap between levels 4 and 5, his AS and TS both go up again. Very nice! Still not doubling the cavaliers, but he's putting a solid dent in them while managing to double most archers. More importantly still, he's now able to reliably one-round the numerous soldiers plaguing the map, as well as two-round the pirates and brigands. This is the first map where Eliwood can truly hold his own without being babied, yet it's worth mentioning that he's got some pretty solid competition now. Guy and Matthew can easily hold the beach from the pirates, and Hector/Marcus/Lowen can all charge through the middle with ease. Because of the difficulty of the chapter and- more importantly- the nature of a Route Map, however, Eliwood will still find plenty to do. In fact, a level and a half here should be easy enough to get, though to offset any claims that I'm "inflating" his levels, let's keep it at 1, just for argument's sake.

Eliwood @ Lv. 5.5 -> AS = 9; TS = 14.

Chapter 15

Experience heaven. The Wood reliably two-rounds all nomads, soliders, and axe-users. Even assuming a liberal spread of experience, he's definitely reaching 7 by this point.

Eliwood @ Lv. 7 -> AS = 9; TS = 15.

...Which brings us to Chapter 16, where Lyn is recruited. Now we have to return to the issue of experience allocation in LHM. As dondon got at earlier, most experience will be spread out between the high-movement units for an efficiency run, leaving not as much to Lyn as we might think. She gets the Prologue baddies as well as some bosses, to be sure, but it's unlikely that she'll be coming out of LHM any higher than 8. I think 7 is probably more reasonable, but let's give her the extra edge and compare a Lv. 7 Eliwood with a Lv. 8 Lyn (and remember that Eliwood's stats include the C bonus with Hector):

Eliwood

HP: 23

Str: 8

Skill: 8

Speed: 9

Luck: 10

Def: 8

Res: 2

Lyn

HP: 21

Str: 7

Skill: 11

Speed: 13

Luck: 8

Def: 3

Res: 2

Wood w/Rapier -> AS = 9; TS = 15; Def = 8; Avoid = 34

Lyn w/Mani Katti-> AS = 13; TS = 15; Def = 3; Avoid = 34

Even with a level lead and the Mani Katti, Eliwood still ties Lyn in TS and wrecks her defensively. The only clear lead Lyn has- and this will surely become the deciding factor in all of this- is the 4 AS lead. But how much can that ever-waning speed lead be worth, especially over a five-chapter lead-in?

More to come, but I'm leaving this here for everyone to dissect and debate in the meantime.

EDIT: And the more I think about it, the less I can accept a Lv. 8 Lyn, even while being generous. Simply not enough experience to go around in LHM, especially with Sainadin running amok. 7's about right for each. Just lower Lyn's TS down to 14 for the final tally.

Edited January 15, 2011 by Jaffar7