FE7 HHM Unranked Tier List v4

[dondon151]

As for 19x, you seem to be forgetting about a few Pegasus Knights with axereavers that aggro at the beginning of the map. Raven+Sword+Mountain = many dead pegasi, and a few levels for him.

It's like, one level. When Raven approaches level 10, his EXP gain slows down fast. I can buy him being promoted by chapter 20 (since I promoted him in the middle of the map), but in that situation he's going to be 10/xx for the rest of the game.

Edited July 12, 2011 by dondon151

[General Banzai]

What's the point of promoting people early? Doesn't it just slow exp gains down even more?

[Florete]

What's the point of promoting people early? Doesn't it just slow exp gains down even more?

Promotion bonuses. Move, weapons, etc.

[Lord Raven]

Yeah, in efficiency it doesnt seem to matter nearly as much because there's no EXP rank to be worrying about.

[General Banzai]

Promotion bonuses. Move, weapons, etc.

Move and weapons makes sense, but I don't believe there is a single point in this game where the enemy level jumps enough to justify needing an extra +1 or +2 to every stat.

I'm not exactly certain on the slowdown received when a unit promotes, but I would imagine that an unpromoted unit would pass a promoted unit in actual stats after four or five levels.

[Florete]

Move and weapons makes sense, but I don't believe there is a single point in this game where the enemy level jumps enough to justify needing an extra +1 or +2 to every stat.

Enemy level doesn't have to jump at all. What if 12 is the Spd needed to double most enemies and your unpromoted unit has 11? Promotion effectively doubles offensive output.

[Lord Raven]

I'm not exactly certain on the slowdown received when a unit promotes, but I would imagine that an unpromoted unit would pass a promoted unit in actual stats after four or five levels.

Except in Raven's case it's "add (hand) axes to bitchin stats and watch the the sparks fly".

[Hippoman]

I'd like to make a case for Canas usurping Erk, due to his immense utility with Luna. Erk shows up 2 or 3 chapters before him, and has Lyn mode advantage, but while Pent eventually comes along to fill any gaps you may need in the Anima department, Canas is your sole Dark user in the entire game up until the Final Chapter, and has more durability to survive getting cornered if plans go awry. Towards the end, Erk's biggest advantage comes in the form of speed, and that can be remedied by giving Canas a Speedwing, whereas Erk will never be able to use Luna.

And yeah, I am one of the approximately 3 people who uses Canas every playthrough XD, so I might be fanboying a bit.

[Florete]

Honestly, Luna is overrated. I'd rather sell them for a free 2,625 each than use Canas. It doesn't kill anything except maybe the Dragon significantly faster (if faster at all) than other easily available methods.

Pent has nothing to do with it. We aren't limited to one Sage. If anything he devalues them equally because he wins offense, durability, and staff rank over them both.

[Janissary]

Luna isn't overrated at all. Canas' issue is that he's too much of a jack of all trades. He can NosTank, LunaKill, or just mage it up, but he doesn't have great stats to do it from. I, personally, love Canas though.

[Florete]

Well then Luna is overrated within the scope it can be used in this game.

[dondon151]

Luna isn't overrated at all.

Really?

I'd like to make a case for Canas usurping Erk, due to his immense utility with Luna.

Try saying that again with a straight face.

[Janissary]

Well then Luna is overrated within the scope it can be used in this game.

I would still disagree because it's the only Tome that offers semi-reliable crits, and it makes for great bosskilling. Canas rapes bosses like Ursala that don't chill on thrones. I admite the amount of non-throned bosses is small, but Canas rapes them when they are there.

[Florete]

I would still disagree because it's the only Tome that offers semi-reliable crits, and it makes for great bosskilling. Canas rapes bosses like Ursala that don't chill on thrones. I admite the amount of non-throned bosses is small, but Canas rapes them when they are there.

A case like Ursula does not even need to be killed, and other non-Throne bosses ought to be very easy to take (and more reliably at that) out otherwise due to, you know, not being on a Throne.

[dondon151]

A case like Ursula does not even need to be killed, and other non-Throne bosses ought to be very easy to take (and more reliably at that) out otherwise due to, you know, not being on a Throne.

Ursula kind of starts moving on the last 3 turns of the map, so killing her is probably a good idea. That said, everything destroys her, especially if she has Bolting equipped.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Luna is horribly overrated, considering that in order for it to be useful enemies have to have more than 7/10 Resistance in order for it to be better than Flux/Nosferatu respectively, AND it doesn't have Nosferatu's HP-stealing advantage, which is disappointing. The only use for it is blowing shit up with Athos in endgame, and nothing else.

Anyway, Canas used to be above Erk, then dd151 made this post and all was right in the world. Erk has availability, a better weapon type, and general equivalence combat-wise after promotion. Canas is still usable, but Erk is better.

[Florete]

Ursula kind of starts moving on the last 3 turns of the map, so killing her is probably a good idea. That said, everything destroys her, especially if she has Bolting equipped.

I didn't know that, probably because I always kill her before then...haha.

[General Banzai]

Enemy level doesn't have to jump at all. What if 12 is the Spd needed to double most enemies and your unpromoted unit has 11? Promotion effectively doubles offensive output.

How many times does that actually happen, though? Certainly not with Raven, Kent, Sain, Florina... or rather, most units who are in the higher levels of the tiers. Speed is an important stat and higher tier units typically have enough of it on their own, without forced early promotion. Furthermore, you basically give short-term benefits in exchange for detriments later in the game. Now, while most units will have plenty of offensive power lategame regardless of whether they promote early or not, they're going to come out with even lower defensive stats than they usually have, which is unfortunate because Kent/Sain/Raven have shit for defenses to begin with.

Furthermore, is this tier list based on efficiency? The people talking on here make me think it is, but I didn't see anything on the first page to denote this.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

@ General Banzai:

You obviously didn't read the FAQ, since it says every tier list is based on either rankings (obviously not this one) or efficiency. That said, I might as well note that more accurately in the OP.

In any case, when is it actually a detriment? Most of the time characters are willing to trade growth speed for instant awesome. Raven needs Hand Axes ASAP and is willing to trade durability for it (his offense definitely doesn't suffer). Sain promotes in Lyn Mode and ends up 13/2 in Chapter 6 as a second Marcus (and we both know that awesome bases make up for slow growth in this game). Other characters get the same thing, since generally promotion is a *huge* boost to all stats as well as opening up alternate weapons and granting a lot of general benefits. Nobody promotes at 20. It just doesn't happen.

The other thing is that promotion tends to really benefit stats that are neglected by growths, like Defense and HP for mages and Strength for Swordmasters, so promotion really helps them.

[Florete]

I should also add that, in the case of Raven, at least, his durability really won't suffer since Axes grant him WTA against the most common enemy weapon type as it is. Although he can take hits, he's not the type of unit who relies on taking hits, like Oswin, so he should be avoiding most enemy attacks.

[-Cynthia-]

Luna also makes Canas an effective mage killer. Take the CoD valkyries for instance, they dobule a fair number of units, hit Res, and have enough AVo that hitting them with 1-2 range weapons is often difficult. Canas can tank their hits better than almost any physical unit and have an accurate 2HKO back with a good chance to crit. It does have some use outside of Athos in Final, it's just not a good enough reason to move him over Erk probably.

Hawkeye might be a bit overrated. Might have to look into it more later, but I would think Isadora's Spd lead, WTC, and +2 Mov (the big one) outweighs Hawkeye's better strength/crit, durability lead and peak walking stuff.

[grandjackal]

Isadora's WTC is not that big a deal when you consider just about everything weighs her down (In fact, using an Iron Axe, she is weighed down essentially to Hawkeye's speed...Except she's missing 5 Str...And crit...And durability). If she wants to double, she has to stick with swords, which is not fun in a lance heavy game and you have low Str.

I believe Hawkeye only has 1 issue, of which is that he can't be transported by anyone except for an unpromoted Florina because he's a fatass with his 16 con. However, he does have ways to make up for this, such as Night of Farewells, of which he utterly destroys.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Grandkitty

[dondon151]

Canas can tank their hits better than almost any physical unit and have an accurate 2HKO back with a good chance to crit.

2HKO? He needs 16 mag to 2HKO any of them with WTA, which is like 20/2 or 20/3 on average. I only had Raven at 10/7 by that point.

Isadora's WTC is not that big a deal when you consider just about everything weighs her down (In fact, using an Iron Axe, she is weighed down essentially to Hawkeye's speed...Except she's missing 5 Str...And crit...And durability). If she wants to double, she has to stick with swords, which is not fun in a lance heavy game and you have low Str.

Body Ring? That's completely uncontested for and gives Isadora +2 AS on pretty much every relevant weapon in the game. I don't really understand your swords argument either; if she can double and Hawkeye can't, then that sucks for Hawkeye since Isadora can pick up a Silver Sword for no AS loss after Body Ring and wreck things.

I believe Hawkeye only has 1 issue, of which is that he can't be transported by anyone except for an unpromoted Florina because he's a fatass with his 16 con. However, he does have ways to make up for this, such as Night of Farewells, of which he utterly destroys.

What about his "other" issue - not being mounted? That sucks for him. Hawkeye doesn't "destroy" chapter 29x either; he has 2 move at best over the water.

Edited July 13, 2011 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

What about his "other" issue - not being mounted? That sucks for him.

I would say something, but then I remembered this is FE7 where a mount means you automatically win all arguments. Think she could be in High below Pent? Can't imagine many arguing for that Robe she starts with either.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

You're right, Isadora's problem isn't her offense (which is okay at best considering she needs Silver to do what other characters do with iron or steel), or her movement. It's her godawful defensive stats. At the time that she shows up, 28 HP / 8 Def / 6 Res is pretty awful for a character expected to be on the frontlines with units that are better at everything than her. Everyone that follows completely destroys her defensively- Hawkeye's 50 HP / 14 Defense / 10 Resistance is crushing her. In her join chapter, Mages 3HKO her as long as there's 1 16 Atk one in the pack, and she can't double them back because Javelin and Short Spear weigh her down too much to manage it. Cavaliers do the same, as do the Wyverns. She's terrible in the next chapter, as the north is Knights and the west is sand. 23x has siege tomes that 2HKO her. 24's got Wyverns as well as the boss that doubles her with any lance, and it's 2 turned anyway so she does very little (while Hawkeye with Swordreaver can easily rock Lloyd). 25 has a lot of Cavaliers that Hawkeye completely destroys, while Isadora has to trudge through the forests and hope that she doesn't accidentally get blown up by a Halberd.

There are a lot of chapters that Hawkeye does excellently on that Isadora does very badly on, and her durability never really gets out of its rut. Hawkeye, in the meantime, is essentially unkillable, and with the swaths of 6-7 AS enemies in the midgame here, Hawkeye isn't really having trouble doubling the rabble. Isadora's also outclassed by the four other paladins that you get before now, and if Sain is promoted in Lyn Mode, you can afford to have all four of them. Hawkeye has no real competition- he's by far the tankiest sonuvabitch you can get your hands on when he joins, and his offense never really lets up. By the time people start escaping the black hole of 7 AS, there's the PFoD Wing, plus his marginally acceptable 25% growth rate. Much like Sain vs. Kent, Speed issues are rarely a problem, at least not compared to strength issues.

Isadora's completely fine where she is. If anything, I'd want Hawkeye pushed up to the bottom of High.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Seven Deadly Sins