FE7 HHM Unranked Tier List v4

[Life]

I'll make another post soon, but -Cynthia-, I'd just like to say that I don't get where you get off being that rude to me. Comments like "have you ever done an efficiency run before", "Are you illiterate or blind", and "Can I petition that someone at least marginally competent run this tier list instead please?" are completely out of line, and I'm going to be ignoring any further blatantly disrespectful posts on the matter, especially from you.

She's getting cute because she has some legitimate points (not all of them but some are decent) but it seems like you're sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring everything.

Like the kills that Heath has to get before he promotes. He's not getting fielded in Living Legend because it's FoW in the desert with many archers and mages, he's not getting fielded in Genesis since his movement means nothing and he's not promoted by Four Fanged Offense. Isadora might not be fielded in either of those chapters either but come Four Fanged Offense, she's pre-promoted and has decent offense while Heath does not. That's a very valid point that you just completely handwave since Kinship's Bond is over in 5 turns and Heath gets recruited on like Turn 2 or 3 after taking a major counter from one of your own units to save your thief's life.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Kitty Admiral

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Regardless of whether or not she's correct, she's not going to get anywhere acting like that. I'm perfectly willing to listen to logical arguments (see the post that I linked to from dd151 about Erk > Canas, which resulted in me reversing a decision that I was previously adamant about), but if she just wants to fling shit and insults, I'm not interested. It's perfectly possible to make arguments in a respectful (or at least not blatantly inflammatory) manner.

[dondon151]

It's perfectly possible to make arguments in a respectful (or at least not blatantly inflammatory) manner.

No it's not =P

Anyway, I don't agree on Isadora > Heath because of Heath's flying and generally superior combat past promotion. It seems like a simple enough comparison to me, at least.

Edited July 15, 2011 by dondon151

[Life]

Regardless of whether or not she's correct, she's not going to get anywhere acting like that. I'm perfectly willing to listen to logical arguments (see the post that I linked to from dd151 about Erk > Canas, which resulted in me reversing a decision that I was previously adamant about), but if she just wants to fling shit and insults, I'm not interested. It's perfectly possible to make arguments in a respectful (or at least not blatantly inflammatory) manner.

It completely is but the fault isn't 100% on Cynthia. You just have to open your mind a little bit. Like to the fact that Sain and Marcus are not the be-all and end-all of FE7. Sure they make the game easier. But it doesn't mean that every other unit deserves have the title of "Not Sain/Marcus so insignificant" slapped on them. This slightly goes back to the Raven argument.

There are usually 10+ units on the field. Is there a reason why you're claiming that only 2 of them are significant and that the other 8's performances are shit because they're not Marcus/Sain?

Anyway, the point is to stop being close-minded. Even when someone brings a well-formulated argument with no insults, you still slightly refuse to even acknowledge good points. That's why she's so bothered about it.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

It completely is but the fault isn't 100% on Cynthia. You just have to open your mind a little bit. Like to the fact that Sain and Marcus are not the be-all and end-all of FE7. Sure they make the game easier. But it doesn't mean that every other unit deserves have the title of "Not Sain/Marcus so insignificant" slapped on them. This slightly goes back to the Raven argument.

There are usually 10+ units on the field. Is there a reason why you're claiming that only 2 of them are significant and that the other 8's performances are shit because they're not Marcus/Sain?

Anyway, the point is to stop being close-minded. Even when someone brings a well-formulated argument with no insults, you still slightly refuse to even acknowledge good points. That's why she's so bothered about it.

Since when have I ever argued that non-Marcus/Sain units are useless? The point of comparison lies in the fact that they're both Paladins, and as Paladins, Marcus and Sain (and Kent and Lowen too) are good because of durability combined with high movement, whereas Isadora lacks that durability. I've never disputed her offense being good, and yet it keeps being brought up as a point of contention. Her defense is the problem. And in the Raven topic, my points were threefold: Issues with levelling, questionable durability, and sheer replaceability. None of these things have anything to do with Marcus and Sain, and you were the first one to bring either of them up in the Raven discussion. And no, the replaceability argument has nothing to do with Paladins vs. Raven.

As for the "stop being close-minded" thing, I'm not exactly sure that's a fair accusation. Again, I bring up the Erk vs. Canas argument, where 1 logically sound post from dd151 where he actually bothered to confront points I made completely reversed my opinion on a decision. I am not obligated to accept points, but a combination of logic, addressing relevant topics, and a decent demeanor are what I'm looking for. Cynthia's post actually has none of those, since she displays the combination of insulting me AND attacking a point I have already conceded.

At this point, I'd like to move away from arguing about arguments and actually get back on topic.

Things that are probably settled:

Lyn moved up to just below Guy, Florina and Lowen switching places, Dorcas/Bartre down, Isadora

Things remaining to discuss:

Raven down

Have at it.

[Radiant Dragon]

It's the level requirement of the Lords to get to Linus FFO, not recruiting Geitz himself.

If it's been decided that we're playing so quickly that we're not recruiting Geitz, why the hell is he in Upper Mid?

Maybe the problem is having the Erk/Lucius/Canas trio above Isadora. What exactly is the logic behind Erk/Canas over Isadora anyway?

She's better when she joins, but they've been helping for a while (less so in Canas's case). It's pretty tricky to judge. Erk and Canas certainly don't have the one thing that most other units have over Isadora (durability), but Erk is pretty helpful in the earlier chapters, they can use Heal, and their offense is comparable to hers if I remember correctly. She still has movement and WTC, though.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

RE: Magic Users: Heal on promo, significant availability advantages, strong 2 range, def/res gap, the fact that Speed isn't really a premium, the large number of Knights in this game, etc.

As for Geitz, that was never decided. Recruitment costs for characters are never taken into account for their tier list standing. Regardless of whether or not it's hard to get him, Geitz is still incredibly effective once he joins the team.

[Life]

As for the "stop being close-minded" thing, I'm not exactly sure that's a fair accusation. Again, I bring up the Erk vs. Canas argument, where 1 logically sound post from dd151 where he actually bothered to confront points I made completely reversed my opinion on a decision. I am not obligated to accept points, but a combination of logic, addressing relevant topics, and a decent demeanor are what I'm looking for. Cynthia's post actually has none of those, since she displays the combination of insulting me AND attacking a point I have already conceded.

...

Things that are probably settled:

Lyn moved up to just below Guy, Florina and Lowen switching places, Dorcas/Bartre down, Isadora

Isadora is only settled because you refuse to continue to address it. Which goes back to the above point. And yes, you are obligated to accept points because this is a community run list. Your personal opinion does not hold more weight that everyone else's and it seems like you have forgotten that.

To me, I feel like Isadora is better than Heath. Heath isn't promoting until Four Fanged Offense at the earliest since he's not getting played in the first two chapters after he's recruited for obvious reasons (you can field him in Genesis but his movement is completely redundant there) and then walks into FoW Ballistas in Four Fanged Offense. Heath's first positive chapter where he's actually meaningful is Crazed Beast but he still needs to pop a Pure Water AND stay healthy to avoid the Monks and Ballista. Isadora is a major force in her joining chapter in either the rush to Eubans or holding the treasure room, Four Fanged Offense and Crazed Beast. She's already topping what Heath can do and the first two chapters don't have her worrying about her low HP/Def due to WTA on everything and a quick bumrush with very few enemies in the way.

[dondon151]

RE: Magic Users: Heal on promo,

Not important.

significant availability advantages,

Yes for Erk, not really for Canas.

strong 2 range, def/res gap, the fact that Speed isn't really a premium,

None of these are really strong points in the favor of Erk or Canas. Certainly, they don't make up for the fact that Isadora has higher movement, and physical weapons generally tend to be stronger than magical weapons lategame. Strong 2 range is great, but you don't get to use it often when you only have 6 move.

the large number of Knights in this game, etc.

I didn't recall knights being a threat or a nuisance at all.

Heath isn't promoting until Four Fanged Offense at the earliest since he's not getting played in the first two chapters after he's recruited for obvious reasons

Huh? Chapter 23 is one of Heath's best chapters for obvious desert reasons. He's not a good option in chapter 23x, that's for sure.

(you can field him in Genesis but his movement is completely redundant there) and then walks into FoW Ballistas in Four Fanged Offense.

Heath performs well in either version of chapter 24, ballistae or not. Should I remind you that the Iron Ballista in chapter 24 Lloyd is taking off well over 50% of Isadora's max HP?

Heath's first positive chapter where he's actually meaningful is Crazed Beast but he still needs to pop a Pure Water AND stay healthy to avoid the Monks and Ballista.

The ballistae only cover 1 relevant tile to the east part of the map (and that is, IIRC, the tile right in front of the bishop boss), and Heath has enough base res to be mostly tinked by monks with a full res boost from Pure Water or Barrier. Let me point out as well that with 14 str from base + promo, Heath can ORKO the bishop boss using a Steel Lance - Florina won't be reaching 14 str until 18/1 or equivalent.

Isadora is a major force in her joining chapter in either the rush to Eubans or holding the treasure room, Four Fanged Offense and Crazed Beast. She's already topping what Heath can do and the first two chapters don't have her worrying about her low HP/Def due to WTA on everything and a quick bumrush with very few enemies in the way.

What about, I don't know, every other map after that where flying is a big deal? You're seriously saying that 2-3 maps where Isadora is superior has greater weight than the at least 6 maps where Heath is better just by virtue of flying?

Edited July 15, 2011 by dondon151

[-Cynthia-]

If it's been decided that we're playing so quickly that we're not recruiting Geitz, why the hell is he in Upper Mid?

We aren't penalizing characters for recruitment requirements, the tier list bases them on their performance after they join. The Geitz thing was only brought up as an aside to 'if he is recruited'.

Thank you Life, for recognizing the issue here. That being said I actually do support Heath>Isadora, but I think that just indicates both should move up. There are a number of Upper Mid charactrers better than High characters at combat (Harken beats people like Lowen handily etc.), but the Mov is a really big factor. As long as the availability is decent and ther combat is acceptable enough (as is the case with most of the Paladins in High), then that should propel them over most of the competition.

[grandjackal]

Isadora is only settled because you refuse to continue to address it. Which goes back to the above point. And yes, you are obligated to accept points because this is a community run list. Your personal opinion does not hold more weight that everyone else's and it seems like you have forgotten that.

Need it be reminded that the only points made for Isa so far have been "1 Silver Sword", "Horse", and "Retarded Noob", 2 of those 3 not being particularly good arguments, and the "Horse" argument has been the stereotypical "I can say you don't matter unless you have a horse and I'll automatically win without needing to say anything else".

It was dropped because instead of making points or disproving them, Cynthia decided to just flame, and hadn't really been looked into until dondon picked it back up just now (Granted it's the typical "No horse, bottom tier", but that's miles better than flaming).

[Anouleth]

I don't think you can really make a strong argument for Isadora over Heath. It doesn't take him long to have competitive speed and his strength and concrete durability are immediately better, so she doesn't win combat after a few chapters. And he's better in Living Legend anyway.

However, I don't really agree with Erk or Canas over Isadora. Being able to use Heal staves is not amazingly useful. Her combat is better, and so is her movement. Their only edge is availability.

[grandjackal]

However, I don't really agree with Erk or Canas over Isadora. Being able to use Heal staves is not amazingly useful.

It's still a nice perk, and they can do it as soon as the first Guiding Ring. This lets you rather freely purge Serra from your team for someone that can both heal and do some sort of damage. That, and even once a better staffer comes along (Pent), chances are Pent has better things to do than launch a wasteful Physic at someone. It's not much, but even if it's just a perk I don't think one can just handwave it.

Her combat is better, and so is her movement. Their only edge is availability.

While I would argue that their combat has flaws in general (namely due to durability), would be in agreement that move sort of wins this out since not much seperates them from that line of thinking. However, Erk has availability, and he can do pretty decent things with it (Or at least I would imagine so). Canas? Could see her above him.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Honestly, I think this more boils down to "are mages overrated" rather than "is Isadora underrated". Thinking about it, this game is not so lacking in useful characters that mages are necessary. Lucius is probably the best of them, and the most likely to retain his status, mainly due to the C Staves on promotion, but it's possible that it would be reasonable for Isadora to rise above the mages, considering the fact that Def/Res gap isn't really big enough to make her better than the Mages, who suffer the same durability issues. The thing is that all 3 mages have a non-insignificant availability lead on Isadora, and sitll have Def-Res gap, which is significant on Wyverns later on in the game (which are plentiful), and Swords aren't too terribly hot later in the game. Also, Isadora kinda caps out her performance fairly badly insofar as her only real "growth" is in Speed, the one stat she doesn't need. Still, I'd be okay with hearing arguments of mages vs. the Fiora/Heath/Isadora block.

[-Cynthia-]

It was dropped because instead of making points or disproving them, Cynthia decided to just flame, and hadn't really been looked into until dondon picked it back up just now (Granted it's the typical "No horse, bottom tier", but that's miles better than flaming).

You must have missed all those parts where:

SDS makes ridiculoud assertion about something "Isadora is crushed by everyone in High tier etc.", I use statistics to show this was inaccurate. Just because he got all butthurt about it doesn't mean there weren't points in there.

It's still a nice perk, and they can do it as soon as the first Guiding Ring. This lets you rather freely purge Serra from your team for someone that can both heal and do some sort of damage. That, and even once a better staffer comes along (Pent), chances are Pent has better things to do than launch a wasteful Physic at someone. It's not much, but even if it's just a perk I don't think one can just handwave it

Erk and Canas are unlikely to obtain the rank for Physic. They probably aren't promoting until chapter 21, it takes 15 Heals just to get to D. Physic is a B rank staff.

Promo items are another mark against Canas/Erk (and Lucius). We probably won't get the C18 Guiding Ring, leaving us just one Ring until Chapter 23. Not sure if stealing that one is too inefficient or not.

Edited July 15, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[dondon151]

Also, Isadora kinda caps out her performance fairly badly insofar as her only real "growth" is in Speed, the one stat she doesn't need. Still, I'd be okay with hearing arguments of mages vs. the Fiora/Heath/Isadora block.

She can get to doubling mercs and to doubling other enemies with axes. And as we all know, axes = more MT.

[grandjackal]

You must have missed all those parts where:

SDS makes ridiculoud assertion about something "Isadora is crushed by everyone in High tier etc.", I use statistics to show this was inaccurate. Just because he got all butthurt about it doesn't mean there weren't points in there.

You made 1 point at the end of what was basically a post that was 90% flaming, and one could argue that A. You were snadbagging Kent, or B. Ignoring the point that she may be Kent with less availability and less Con (making that Spd lead irrelenvent. Case in point: Kent using a Hand Axe would have 12 Spd. Isadora with a Body Ring using same weapon would only have 10, and this is in the case she gets the ring over Heath. 11 Spd is also not exactly irrelevent, as even enemies as far back as chapter 12 could have up to 7 Spd, so Kent can manage to edge out here). So yah, the 5 HP and 2 Def wins on the basis that Kent can use stronger weapons and win speed anyways.

That Body Ring also shows just how badly Isadora needs it to not be problematic as well. Unless we're really excited about a Swordmaster on a horse without the crit (And keep in mind that without the body ring, she and Kent have generally the same speed if she equps the silver sword, except Kent could be equipping something like a Silver Lance, or a ranged weapon for when one needs it), I would like to point out that with a javelin (a "fantastic" 19 mt), she has 10 AS. Kent needs no such help, as he takes no resources from anyone (and even if he did, one could argue an Energy Ring pretty easily in his favor or something).

So, less availability, an unignorable amount less of con, less durability, and needs resources just to attempt to match and even still not quite. Sounds like a tier difference to me.

Erk and Canas are unlikely to obtain the rank for Physic. They probably aren't promoting until chapter 21, it takes 15 Heals just to get to D. Physic is a B rank staff.

Who said they had to get Physic? Just having Heal is enough, because it could save time from having someone like Pent do the healing when he could be destroying things, or just having someone who's more helpful than just a staffbot (Serra) on our team when we could have that+pretty nice chip to avoid counters.

Furthermore, let's say someone got statused, and others in your army are hurting. Pent and Prissy can't really afford to Physic when they need to Restore (Example: Cog of Destiny, getting someone Berserked. You don't wanna deal with that shit, ever). Having a spare healer can help in this instance. Situational sure, but I wouldn't ignore taking weights off the shoulders of Pent and Prissy.

[dondon151]

So, less availability, an unignorable amount less of con, less durability, and needs resources just to attempt to match and even still not quite. Sounds like a tier difference to me.

Maybe you should pay a little bit more attention when you conclude your arguments. Kent and Isadora are already separated by two tiers. Are you trying to secretly agree with Cynthia while appearing not to?

Who said they had to get Physic? Just having Heal is enough, because it could save time from having someone like Pent do the healing when he could be destroying things, or just having someone who's more helpful than just a staffbot (Serra) on our team when we could have that+pretty nice chip to avoid counters.

Not likely. I was never pressed for heals.

Furthermore, let's say someone got statused, and others in your army are hurting. Pent and Prissy can't really afford to Physic when they need to Restore (Example: Cog of Destiny, getting someone Berserked. You don't wanna deal with that shit, ever). Having a spare healer can help in this instance. Situational sure, but I wouldn't ignore taking weights off the shoulders of Pent and Prissy.

How convenient that you provide an example that implodes upon itself.

Tell me what exactly you are doing with Erk or Canas in chapter 29. If the answer is attacking enemies and not ORKOing them (2RKOing in the case of valks), you've made a mistake by deploying them. You don't have ample unit slots in that chapter for losers who have trouble damaging half of the map and can do nothing else but heal at 1 range.

Edited July 15, 2011 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

Not likely. I was never pressed for heals.

So one healer basically worked for you the entire game?

How convenient that you provide an example that implodes upon itself.

Tell me what exactly you are doing with Erk or Canas in chapter 29. If the answer is attacking enemies and not ORKOing them (2RKOing in the case of valks), you've made a mistake by deploying them. You don't have ample unit slots in that chapter for losers who have trouble damaging half of the map and can do nothing else but heal at 1 range.

Now this I'll back down on simply cause I'm once again not super knowledgeable on FE7's lategame, as I was unaware that we were super tight on deployment slots there.

Maybe you should pay a little bit more attention when you conclude your arguments. Kent and Isadora are already separated by two tiers. Are you trying to secretly agree with Cynthia while appearing not to?

Well, it's more that from the way it was worded, Kent was in high and not top. Blame the fact I don't double check every single minute detail, this case being who's tier positions are where.

Looking at high tier, I don't really see her having anything on some of these guys. High tier is basically either superpowered earlygame or great utility+combatlike Pent. While Isa is basically just a slightly weaker version of Kent with less availability, I also would say she doesn't have anything clutch utility. She's just yet another cav. That's not bad, but she doesn't do anything super distinguishing.

Though I thank you for catching my little botch there. I'm far from perfect as we all know.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Grandkitty

[Anouleth]

You made 1 point at the end of what was basically a post that was 90% flaming, and one could argue that A. You were snadbagging Kent, or B. Ignoring the point that she may be Kent with less availability and less Con (making that Spd lead irrelenvent. Case in point: Kent using a Hand Axe would have 12 Spd. Isadora with a Body Ring using same weapon would only have 10, and this is in the case she gets the ring over Heath. 11 Spd is also not exactly irrelevent, as even enemies as far back as chapter 12 could have up to 7 Spd, so Kent can manage to edge out here). So yah, the 5 HP and 2 Def wins on the basis that Kent can use stronger weapons and win speed anyways.

That's inaccurate. Isadora with a Body Ring has 8 CON, so she has 12AS with a Hand Axe. In addition, I don't really see why you would give Heath a Body Ring. Post-promotion (and he doesn't spend a whole lot of time in between us getting the Body Ring and him promoting) he only loses 1AS from Javelins and Axereavers.

That Body Ring also shows just how badly Isadora needs it to not be problematic as well. Unless we're really excited about a Swordmaster on a horse without the crit (And keep in mind that without the body ring, she and Kent have generally the same speed if she equps the silver sword, except Kent could be equipping something like a Silver Lance, or a ranged weapon for when one needs it), I would like to point out that with a javelin (a "fantastic" 19 mt), she has 10 AS. Kent needs no such help, as he takes no resources from anyone (and even if he did, one could argue an Energy Ring pretty easily in his favor or something).

Taking resources is not inherently a bad thing. We don't parcel out equal amounts of resources in a comparison.

In addition, Isadora has 11AS with a Javelin.

So, less availability, an unignorable amount less of con, less durability, and needs resources just to attempt to match and even still not quite. Sounds like a tier difference to me.

Since there are two tier gaps in between them, am I to interpret this as a call for Isadora to move up or for Kent to move down?

Who said they had to get Physic? Just having Heal is enough, because it could save time from having someone like Pent do the healing when he could be destroying things, or just having someone who's more helpful than just a staffbot (Serra) on our team when we could have that+pretty nice chip to avoid counters.

Furthermore, let's say someone got statused, and others in your army are hurting. Pent and Prissy can't really afford to Physic when they need to Restore (Example: Cog of Destiny, getting someone Berserked. You don't wanna deal with that shit, ever). Having a spare healer can help in this instance. Situational sure, but I wouldn't ignore taking weights off the shoulders of Pent and Prissy.

Having a spare physical combatant is also helpful. If you really really really really really need another staff use, then use Ninils.

[grandjackal]

Hmm....Actually double checking, I'm not quite sure I agree with Kent being right below Sain, the guy who's 13/2 at the start of chapter 16. Or our mobile healer that later will be the one keeping up with our mounts with a Restore Staff for all the vitals that it brings, or Ninils. I would argue the same as Raven, as I think top should be for those that are irreplaceable, and High being for people that though they're not super vital, are still just greatly powerful to justify their position.

So actually yeah, I could see Kent dropping. Maybe either...Above or below Serra.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Grandkitty

[-Cynthia-]

Looking at high tier, I don't really see her having anything on some of these guys. High tier is basically either superpowered earlygame or great utility+combatlike Pent. While Isa is basically just a slightly weaker version of Kent with less availability, I also would say she doesn't have anything clutch utility. She's just yet another cav. That's not bad, but she doesn't do anything super distinguishing.

Though I thank you for catching my little botch there. I'm far from perfect as we all know.

I wouldn't put Isadora above Pent either, since he can Restore/Warp/whatever staff while having some of the best 1-2 range combat on the team. The staves are what distnguish him from people like Hawkeye/Harken/Geitz who just have good combat with...6 Mov.

Kent's position depends on his LM levels really, probably lowish if we're putting that many levels into Sain. I don't think he should be a tier below Lowen though, Kent is a bit better offensively.

[Radiant Dragon]

Remember that we can choose to promote Kent instead of Sain in Lyn Mode. Sain's the better choice, but that's why he's above Kent. I can't see Kent dropping at all, unless you want to make a separation for 'Promoted Sain/Kent' and 'Unpromoted Sain/Kent'.

[Anouleth]

Hmm....Actually double checking, I'm not quite sure I agree with Kent being right below Sain, the guy who's 13/2 at the start of chapter 16. Or our mobile healer that later will be the one keeping up with our mounts with a Restore Staff for all the vitals that it brings, or Ninils. I would argue the same as Raven, as I think top should be for those that are irreplaceable, and High being for people that though they're not super vital, are still just greatly powerful to justify their position.

So actually yeah, I could see Kent dropping. Maybe either...Above or below Serra.

Kent can also be 13/2 at the start of Chapter 16. Obviously, he's not as good as Sain if he does that, but Kent can still deliver something that Priscilla or Ninils cannot.

[grandjackal]

Kent's position depends on his LM levels really, probably lowish if we're putting that many levels into Sain. I don't think he should be a tier below Lowen though, Kent is a bit better offensively.

Well talking with SDS, he mentioned something like 6-7, and I am gonna go with 7 since I know I could repeat that fact. 8.4 Str, 9.75 Spd.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=24152&st=20&p=1400508entry1400508

Looking at this post here for enemy stats of his sart in chapter 16, those offensive stats are actually rather poor. In fact?

6 Lowen: 28.4 HP, 8.8 Str, 6.8 Skl, 8.8 Spd, 5 Lck, 8.6 Def, 1.2 Res

7 Kent: 25.1 HP, 8.4 Str, 9 Skl, 9.7 Spd, 3.2 Lck, 6.25 Def, 2.25 Res

Sure Kent doubles, but he can't actually ORKO a lot of things (I believe he gets steel archers if he equips a steel sword, and that's if they have the lowest 4 Def and 24 HP). Lowen blasts him durably. This is ignoring that I am probably sandbagging Lowen too.

Now, hte above post also compares 14/2 Kent to Sain, and the results are noticeably weaker, so it's far harder to argue that power out of Sain's hands. If that is the case, then I think Kent's gotta actually deal with Lowen early on.

Kent can also be 13/2 at the start of Chapter 16. Obviously, he's not as good as Sain if he does that, but Kent can still deliver something that Priscilla or Ninils cannot.

What Priscilla and Ninils delivers is purely unique, Kent being 13/2 is not unique as Sain can also do it, and is noticeably better at it.

Edited July 16, 2011 by Grandkitty