Branching Classes

[Jotari]

I'm the kind of guy that likes to designing things such as video games, I'd want to be since I'm doing a video game designer course. I have some notes down for a Fire Emblem game that I would make, I'm not sure if this is the right section to bring up this here topic since it isn't really writing. I'll just get on course anyway. I like the idea of branched promotions that they did in the Sacred Stones. However the idea didn't really work for me due to the small cast of characters. You couldn't really train up many of the same classes and then have them branch out. So I decided to work with the idea and created a class system similar to the one in the Sacred Stones but with third tier classes included that can also be branched out. What you see below is the basics of what it is. Different classes can effect characters growth rates, stat caps, weapon rank and skills available. This is designed for a really big Fire Emblem game with many many different characters to make a fully customizable army. So I just want people to tell me what you think. Do you have any suggestions or problems with such a system. I am thinking about replacing Vanguard with Hero and then replacing Hero with Mercenary opening up a new first tier class, Swordsman though I'm not sure yet.

On a semi related note I would like to see a New Game + feature in Fire Emblem games allowing you to play though the game again but keeping the levels and classes of all your characters letting players either breeze through the game or allow them to train up other characters while still having access to previous characters. Then you could have epic multiplayer battles against other players with over 20 units instead of the 5 in Shadow Dragon.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Jotari

[Byte2222]

I like your thinking, I'm a big fan of variety in classes and have often thought about what classes could be reasonable added to FE. However, when we're fantasising about this we've got to bear in mind that a class is nothing without an identity and a role: slow but reliable defence, fast-moving vanguard, healing support, glass cannon and so on. Quite a lot of the classes in your design will overlap in their roles or else are redundant, for example all the third tier classes from the knight family: assuming they're all heavily armoured then they all fill the role of a slow moving tank with very little difference between them in gameplay.

It would also be very difficult to balance the classes properly if there were so many of them; you've already imbalanced the mage family as a mage knight will be mounted (I assume) but also has access to all 3 types of magic. Finally, there is only one case in the entire series where a promotion drops a unit's weapon rank (Ewan promoting the Shaman) because it's unfair for the player's hard work raising a weapon rank to just disappear on promotion. Also, you spelled Paladin, Phoenix, Valkyrie and Assassin wrong.

Oh, and if you're interested in game design might I recommend the web series Extra Credits? They've covered some very interesting and important topics and their videos are always good to watch.

[Ciarre]

I think it would be a cool idea.

Myrm promotes to both SM and Trueblade? That part does look a little weird. I think you should swap the weapon types for saint (so they have light) with the ones for valkyrie (so they have anima). Also, I think they should get weapons starting from tier 2, because man it would suck to have them level through healing only.

I think that having cavalier/paladin and rider/silver/gold as two different branches seems a bit redundant. If there were different types of paladins like in RD, they could promote to Silver/Gold as their final classes. Maybe give a new recruit a choice between cavalry or infantry and go from there? So they could have a choice between soldier -> halberdier -> sentinel or cavalier -> paladin -> gold/silver knight.

Mage knight seems too OP at the moment. They have a horse in addition to anima AND dark/light, so maybe stick with anima only? I think the names should be mage -> sage -> arch sage instead of anima mage in the middle, because there could be like a light/dark mage or something. And then only dark mage can promote to the shaman branch so that the other mage types don't have their anima types disapoof. Also I think light mages should be connected to the bishop/saint route somehow.

For the pegknight branch with healing/staves, you could rename it to holy knight -> seraph knight with light magic instead of anima. Because healing is kinda holy and stuff. For the regular pegasus knight branch, it could be named falconknight -> phoenix knight and have then get a mastery skill like sol because of the phoenix rebirth thing. It's just my two cents though.

I don't see much point to a bronze knight class, I think there should just be different types of generals like sword, axe, etc. Is the royal knight branch mounted? Otherwise, then that branch would also be kind of redundant.

Edited January 2, 2012 by CR-S01

[FalconVegeta1986]

I like branched promotions, but you've got a few odd things in there, like nomad to blade lord, and mercenary to myrmidon. And if it's branched, then why are there so many that only have one option?

If anything, i'd swap mercenary and myrmidon (though they both should be bases), and nomad should go somewhere in the bow section with bows instead of swords to start, like in FE7.

Also, I think forest knight and ranger are pretty much the same thing.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Eliwood of Pherae

[Jotari]

These are really great responses keep them coming.

I probably should have noted which ones have mounts. The Mage Knight doesn't have a mount it's main feature is the ability to use the full triangle. I thought about calling it Arch Sage bu that seemed a bit strange considering Sage was already a 3rd tier class. The base mage is also meant to be able to use all types of magic and the one it has the highest rank upon promotion determines which one it promotes too.

I tired to vary the third tier classes as much as possible based on the weapons they use. They also have different Mastery Skills which are nerfed a great deal to make them actually different from each other (ie not all mastery skills consist of completely destroying your enemy in one attack).

And a note on the knight strand, the black knight class is meant to be the awesome but impractical classes that has really high stat caps but is ridiculously hard to get, the way to promote to the black knight is to train up a knight without leveling it's lance weapon rank past E which mean either giving it a lot of bonus experience or putting it in battle without attacking. The Black Knight is more for the sake of saying it's awesome he promoted to a black knight.The practical choices for the knight then is either Marshall who is standard knight like or Baron which is a mounted knight.. The Bronze Knight is meant to be the Axe version of a knight.

I might change Phenoix Knight to having Light Magic, I was thinking it along the lines of Phenoix and Fire but holy ability makes sense. Though I intentionally didn't call it seraph Knight because I didn't want to look like I was ripping of Radiant Dawn too much and had to make some original classes too.

Lastly Ranger is more focused on close combat while still being good with a bow while Forest Knight is a mounted unit who can only attack closely by using a cross bow. And I don't know what you mean by so many having only one option. The only first tier class that has no option of branching is the sailor going to pirate and berserker. Are you suggesting that every single second class can promote to two third classes as well as having every single first class promote to two second classes?

I have taken note of all this though and will probably change it around later on. Makes more sense to give the stave users weapons at 2nd tier and to swap the weapon types of Saint and Valkrie. Though that would mean making a Monk promote to Saint instead and I would like normal mages to have the ability to promote into a mounted unit. Maybe I could branch off Troubador into two classes one with anima and one with light. Would that make sense. Still deliberating over the whole thing so the more input the better, thanks everyone.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Jotari

[Othin]

You could change Mage Knight's name to Arch Mage; that might be a bit more clear.

[Jean-Marc]

I think that it's unfair that some classes get 3 options while others get 2. Mercenary should only be able to promote to Hero and Nomad. Myrmidon would be a 1st tier again. It could promote to Swordmaster or Assassin, which would explain why it gets swords and makes sense to become a ninja. Shaman should be 1st tier class, Druid should promote to something (no idea) and Summoner could promote to Necromancer. For the rare 2nd tier who have 2 promotion choices, there should be a special item to make a character become that class (like the elysian whip in Shadow Dragon).

Otherwise, the New Game+ has one big flaw: You could, with that, obtain an infinity of Stat boosters, which would make mulitplayer like FE8: a caps battle. I think there should be instead some kind of trial maps, some being like exact copies of in-game chapters, and others like references to older FEs. Maybe you could get items from actual FE games only usable in single-player (or maybe even usable in multiplayer). Maybe you could obtain real FE characters, by completing some levels by doing the trial map under a certain amount of turns. Some levels would be easier so you could train weaker units and would give a less good character (like replaying the trial map of the prologue could give you the prologue boss).

If you need me for script or ideas, you can always leave me a PM.

[Jotari]

That's why I would like to see more strategy in multiplayer battles. If the maps were a lot bigger with more units and more hazards then it would be a lot more based on strategy and using a new game + feature means that anyone can get the strong units to partake in the battle. If maps were bigger with more units you would have to think more about how to approach your enemies and with what units instead of just being a battle between who has stronger units. You have a point about the infinite stat boosts though that would be a bit of a problem. Maybe make so each unit can only use 5 stat boosting items or something. I should probably start a new forum on a new game + feature since it really isn't on topic here just an extra I threw in.

Anyway here is my second draft. Noticeably I have changed the lines linking classes hopefully making it a bit easier on the eyes. I have also changed the name of Magic Knight to Arch Sage it was bad to call it that in the first place. It also resulted in renaming Sage to Light Mage and Anima Mage to Sage. Additionally I have added in a proper mounted Mage Knight and indicated what units are mounted. I also took the advice and swapped some of the magic and names around as well as adding more to the rider strand and separating the myrmidon.

As an extra note something I had always decided from the beginning getting different classes isn't as straight forward as in the sacred stones you don't just pick it on promotion. Classes are decided using a variety of effects such as items used, weapon levels and maybe even the shrine system. That makes some classes harder to get then others. Since class also effects growth rates the way in which you reach a third level class can have different units depending on what path they took. IE the same character who went Mage, Sage, Light Mage could have different stats if they went Mage, Monk, Light Mage.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Jotari

[Jean-Marc]

Maybe you could include some way the Bandit as a promotion to Sailor and give it another name. Bandit and its promotion could have access to srealing items but a little worse combat-wise than Pirate.

[FalconVegeta1986]

Maybe it's just FE7 clouding my mind with the whole Sacaean thing, but I think myrmidons would be more likely to become nomads/nomadic troopers/blade lords than a mercenary. Blade lord was pretty neat too, you have to find a way to get it back in there.

If you want, I could help you re-write the chart so it makes more sense and includes more actual branching paths.

[Jean-Marc]

Did you see the version 2.0 of the chart?

Edited January 2, 2012 by Jean-Marc

[Jotari]

Yes yes a bandit is a great idea. It isn't fair on Sailors having only one promotion path. What could they promote to though hmm...

I had Blade Lord in because I wanted to have a grounded unit that could use both Bows and Swords. Forgot I had already done that with the Ranger so it hardly seemed necessary thus it got replaced with a mounted version which is also nice as it allows a mounted option for more classes.

[Byte2222]

Well I don't have much more to say ATM, the system is somewhat improved, particularly now that we know a bit more about the classes statistically, but most of the points I made in my first post still apply in some capacity, including loss of weapon types (and the spellings ). I only have 2 new things to add: firstly, remember class identity is more than just gameplay, it's characters too. I'm assuming you're imagining a new kind of Nomad, since a burly mercenary probably wouldn't suddenly become a Sacaean-like character, but a good example is Mage -> Monk: a person trained as a mage can become a highly religious monk with as much ease and probability as a scholarly Sage or mysterious Shaman? Every single design decision tells the player about the world the game is portraying and classes are no exception, remember this.

My second point is a realism one: you cannot possibly use a crossbow from horseback. A modern recurve (i.e. non-superpowered) crossbow will have a draw force of 130lbs or more to kill a living target. 130lbs! To draw that you need to put your foot in a stirrup and use both arms, back and shoulder muscles to pull the string back. It is completely impossible to do that while riding a horse and every time I've seen a game character casually draw a crossbow with one hand (Assassin's Creed I'm looking at you) I've stepped back and said "that's impossible, someone's obviously not done the research".

Edited January 2, 2012 by Byte2222

[MacLovin]

Master Knights with Flight-

Only for 4th tier.

[Jotari]

Well I don't have much more to say ATM, the system is somewhat improved, particularly now that we know a bit more about the classes statistically, but most of the points I made in my first post still apply in some capacity, including loss of weapon types (and the spellings ). I only have 2 new things to add: firstly, remember class identity is more than just gameplay, it's characters too. I'm assuming you're imagining a new kind of Nomad, since a burly mercenary probably wouldn't suddenly become a Sacaean-like character, but a good example is Mage -> Monk: a person trained as a mage can become a highly religious monk with as much ease and probability as a scholarly Sage or mysterious Shaman? Every single design decision tells the player about the world the game is portraying and classes are no exception, remember this.

My second point is a realism one: you cannot possibly use a crossbow from horseback. A modern recurve (i.e. non-superpowered) crossbow will have a draw force of 130lbs or more to kill a living target. 130lbs! To draw that you need to put your foot in a stirrup and use both arms, back and shoulder muscles to pull the string back. It is completely impossible to do that while riding a horse and every time I've seen a game character casually draw a crossbow with one hand (Assassin's Creed I'm looking at you) I've stepped back and said "that's impossible, someone's obviously not done the research".

Well they managed to pull off Gerik going from Mercenary to Ranger so I'm sure it's possible to go Mercenary Nomad if the class designs bend a bit more neutral, or if the classes designs were distinct for each character (which would mean 'a lot' of sprites/models). But point taken I wouldn't expect the personalities of any character to radically change with classes. I did imagine a support or base conversation between the lord and one of the first mages explaining the study of magic (and by proxy the branching class system) stating that their rank have yet to decide which magic route they will study further, which also keys in the way a mages promotion is decided, based on the highest weapon level.

[Jean-Marc]

Change Sailor for Axeman? Axeman->Mountain Thief->Bandit? or Axeman->Bandit->Berserker and Axeman->Pirate->Corsair/Captain

[Jotari]

Change Sailor for Axeman? Axeman->Mountain Thief->Bandit? or Axeman->Bandit->Berserker and Axeman->Pirate->Corsair/Captain

Changed. I have made Bandit the base class replacing Sailor and have made the lines go Bandit -> Pirate -> Corsair and Bandit -> Barbarian -> Berserker with Warriors still also able to become Berserkers. Bit of a minor change so I probably wont post another pic. I wonder now though would it make sense for Sniper to become Nomadic Troopers.

[Jean-Marc]

I don't think so.

[Narga_Rocks]

Did you see the version 2.0 of the chart?

You can edit your first post with the updated picture, you know. And how about a pink circle for pegs and a green circle for wyverns? Also, will the sprite for phoenix knight have a red/fiery flying bird thing?

Also, Sentinal is spelled Sentinel. Paladon is spelled Paladin.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Narga_Rocks

[Jotari]

You can edit your first post with the updated picture, you know. And how about a pink circle for pegs and a green circle for wyverns? Also, will the sprite for phoenix knight have a red/fiery flying bird thing?

Also, Sentinal is spelled Sentinel. Paladon is spelled Paladin.

I know I have edited it several times because something went wrong with photobucket but I'd rather leave the original up there so people can see how it changed with the advice. Pink and Green circles could be put in but it's not really needed, everyone can rightly assume they will have flying mounts while the horses it isn't always obvious which classes have them especially since I changed some classes like the Ranger. The Phoenix would still have a Pegasus, maybe a red tinged Pegasus with a more elaborate design but it would still be a flying horse and not a bird.

The spellings have been pointed out, I'll get round to fixing them all later.

[Narga_Rocks]

I know I have edited it several times because something went wrong with photobucket but I'd rather leave the original up there so people can see how it changed with the advice. Pink and Green circles could be put in but it's not really needed, everyone can rightly assume they will have flying mounts while the horses it isn't always obvious which classes have them especially since I changed some classes like the Ranger. The Phoenix would still have a Pegasus, maybe a red tinged Pegasus with a more elaborate design but it would still be a flying horse and not a bird.

The spellings have been pointed out, I'll get round to fixing them all later.

I'd still recommend putting the updated version in the first post. The original in spoiler tags should suffice to show how advice has altered the thing.

[Jotari]

Ok here is version 3.0 I've replaced the Sailor with a Bandit which branches into two strains. I've also labeled how characters actually promote to each class. As always all response is welcome.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Jotari

[Jean-Marc]

The two grey shades make sometimes look harder to see which is which, maybe replace Knight's crest's color with orange?

[13th]

One thing I don't like that I am seeing is losing weapon ranks. The biggest one in there is Cavalier, which starts as Rider/Soldier, both monolances, then getting swords, promoting to Mage Knight, losing lances. In that case, I'd probably make MK use Lances and Anima, to avoid losing that lance rank you''ll have built up. Maybe make the Sage one Mage Knight or Mage Rider, and The Cavalier one the other kind.