Ensemble Mafia - N5

[Irony]

Also, I've dominated the thread for a bit. I'm going to bow out, probably for the entire night. I'll be active again tomorrow.

I just really want to see what other players say before I own half of another page's posts.

Yeah, I should probably do the same tbh. I'm enjoying myself though. :)

[Ken Masters]

Hmm? I don't think I insulted you. I described your actions. I've enjoyed talking with you friend.

Do you see no value I could gain as town by wanting you to answer first?

You used two pejorative words to put yourself "above" me, which is and insult. I don't think you had any particularly "oooohhh evil" intentions, but it's extremely unnecesary and I could totally use it against you as proof of padding out your mostly void arguments with filler.

No. Absolutely none.

Explain to me how would I answering first help the Town.

By the way, you came back to deflecting by counter-question. I'll answer them anyways so you get the message clear. I ain't falling for this, and I haven't forgotten what I want you to do.

Second question, do you honestly believe I, as scum, don't have an answer for my actions after admitting to implying something I didn't believe? Do you think I REALLY need you to defend me?

How much mafia experience do you have, Spinal?

No. I think you are doing everything you can to justify a method of deflecting that didn't work out, so you can stale for time until you get a decent, convincing answer, to which you have done a pretty fantastic work so far.

And if you didn't notice, I'm clearly not trying to defend you.

Irrelevant question, but I have over 5 years of Mafia experience, 1 year in this site.

[Elemina]

Spinal:

Let us consider your theory. If Ryker were scum, would he not be more cautious and fully read the thread before engaging you via vote, instead of posting as he did which would give him more attention? Who is scum with Ryker in Scum!Ryker world? Thoughts on why he would post #67? Currently, he is neither voting you, nor scum-reading you. He didn't list you in his reads list. Thoughts on that? Finally, read on me, Refa, and Blitz?

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

I don't know what the vote count is exactly, but next time you are on here, can I ask you a favour?

Can you give me a read on EVERY single player that has commented in this thread? (Yes, including myself). I'm interested in your thought processes, especially because you were one of the ones that I'm interested in.

NO

@elemina let the thread breathe plz

time for a swag catch up

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

It's not about whether the reads are legit, it's that I saw an undue amount of certainty coming from Elemina. It's not an absolute tell ofc, but in general I think it's safe to assume that an informed player + not immediately willing to share that role pm information in the game thread = scum.

im confused

how could elemina have a scum read off his role pm when it hasnt been night yet? mods never give bingo scum results out the gate. were you really trying to read him?

[Hober Mallow]

I like most of the players that have been posting so far. Blitz and Green Tea are the exceptions. I think most of the mafia players are probably in the inactive 6 (5 now that I am here) that Irony posted.

Spinal do you legitimately think that Ryker is scum at this point? It seems like you are carrying this on just for the sake of not giving in, and turning a blind eye to the underlying intent (or lack thereof) of his posts in the process.

Irony, you can always unvote or switch your vote. "Nothing is written in stone". Wait a minute..are you INTENTIONALLY adding another layer of irony to your whole shtick? If so, good show. 2meta

"Lylo" means "Lynch or Lose". It is the phase in which town will lose if they fail to lynch mafia, because mafia will gain parity the next phase. Usually in a game this size, Lylo tends to happen around Day 4 if all the lynches up to that point have been Town lynches.

"Mylo" means "Mislynch and Lose". It is often used interchangeably with Lylo. The technical difference is that town can safely No Lynch during that phase. Where as in lylo, No lynching would result in game over.

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

I took the liberty to take out the filler and reduce your post to the the things you actually say.

-I, indeeed, said deflection is not scummy. It's the context on which it's used what makes it scummy. In this case, avoiding any petition of cooperation through counter-questions.

-No. I will not trade that kind of information. If you don't want to explain yourself, you're only closing the noose around your neck when the rest of the players start asking questions back at you. The only one who gains anything from you explaining yourself is the Town, and you.

By the way, yes. I implied you produce 0 content. Tell that to your football friends.

who is scum?

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

@rykers list

i dont do town reads. if i did refa wouldnt be on it hed be null tho i understand where youre coming from with that. ive played with him as scumbros and nothing hes done thus far is out of his skillset as scum

im looking at the blitz/spinal/green poet pool atm. spinal cuz i feel most of his content is reactionary without looking past who hes engaging (first w/elemina then ryker) and im like "wheres the scum reads bro"

theres some other scum runnin round but thatll come in time

swag

@spinal wheres da scum reads bro

##vote blitz

fos spinal

fos green poet

[Elemina]

if i did refa wouldnt be on it hed be null tho i understand where youre coming from with that.

I agree with this. I need more from Refa. I'm also wavering on Green Poet. I liked his initial push on me, and his second post on my confidence. (I think I get it but will explain after he answers you) I don't like him keeping his vote on me after explaining that he liked my reasoning. He missed my question which means he isn't reading thoroughly. Just seems like he was being lazy and was caught with his pants down. You or anyone else have meta on Spinal?

[Elemina]

Yedi needs to post, along with others. I'm going to sleep, night thread.

[Elemina]

EBWOP: You or anyone have meta on Green Poet?

[Sunwoo]

Votals

Yedi (2): YOLOSWAG, kirsche

YOLOSWAG (1): Hober Mallow

Green Poet (3): Refa, SB, Ryker

Rainbow (1): Blitz

Ryker (2): Rainbow, Spinal

kirsche (1): Yedi

Spinal (1): Green Poet

Blitz (1): Elemina

No Lynch (1): Irony

Not voting: None!

Not 100% sure if the votals are correct, a second opinion would be nice.

ALSO IMPORTANT NOTE: Some of you are not unvoting your previous votes before re-voting. If you do not unvote before voting for a new person, your new vote will not be counted. If you notice any discrepancies between your listed vote and actual vote, this is likely why.

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

##unvote vote blitz

[charlie_]

This game started at a terrible time for me and I'm still busy. Mafia sucks.

##Vote: Green Poet

The Spinal vote doesn't sit right with me, considering she completely ignored the slot prior (even when they were one of the only people with cases on them earlygame) and said the argument she based her case on was more about being right or wrong than alignment focused. The timing of the vote ("oh my old one doesn't work anymore") makes me feel like its being made to avoid getting in trouble rather than because they believed it.

Honestly the way posts have gone down has made the game really difficult to parse. I don't think Ryker or Spinal are particularly scummy and my brain is just going zzzzz because their argument in 50% of the thread. Will probably try again after work.

[Irony]

@YOLOSWAG- Ok.

@Hober Mallow- 1) Yeah, that's why I'm interested in the inactive members. For all I know some of them could not be posting in order to not draw suspicion? I don't know.

2) That was actually unintentional. I'm glad that my subconscious likes to act ironically. XD

3) Thank you for the term definitions! :)

[Kriemhild]

Alright, I'm here, and wheeee, 9 pages. I dunno if anyone will read all this, but it would be nice if you guys read any parts where I quoted you, and preferably the parts pertaining to my Ryker case.

(Boron, there were no vote changes from me in this post, so feel free to skip it while updating votals)

Scum:

1. Rainbow

2. Greeenpoet

3. Spinal

Vote: Rainbow

This is an odd post with scumreads and no explanation. The explicit "Scum" and listing makes it look like a serious post too, and not just RVS.

Proto (for newer players, this is what a lot of people are going to refer to Rainbow as), why did you dismiss your own vote?

TO EVERYONE WHO DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHY I DISMISSED MY OWN VOTE: I've had far too many experiences of being lynched on D1 while I was AFK (usually sleeping, but sometimes I was at uni or something else), and in a lot of those instances the case against me was rooted on a RVS vote. This was what happened in my most recent game too, so I'm not just being paranoid about an ancient experience.

So yeah, if I just left on D1 for ~24 hours with only a single RVS post, there was a good chance I would return to find myself in a coffin. Which is why I felt it was necessary to tell you guys not to do something stupid like that.

That being said, it wasn't really a random vote. I did pick out what I felt was the most odd from all the early posts (i.e. from the RVS), but it was not meant to be a serious accusation (which could probably have gotten me lynched).

Everything else after this will be spoilered to keep the thread readable. But please check the spoiler to get my thoughts on stuff.

[spoiler=Wall Of Text]

I will tell you later.

...this is really suspicious now. If you're Town, then withholding the reasoning behind your scumreads is really unproductive, since the rest of the Town can't really consider your perspective if you don't justify it. If you do have solid reasons for it but don't want to disclose it for some reason, e.g. you have knowledge from your role, then why even draw attention to your concealed knowledge by presenting the blatant scumread list?

Oh, I plan to abstain for the whole of the first day. I have little to no information on who is a member of the Mafia and who is a member of the Ensemble. Therefore, I am going to wait for some more information to appear, before deciding on who to lynch.

This seems scummy. It seems like a Townish stance to have, but it feels more like scum trying to avoid drawing attention and trying to justify that stance. The statement about "I have little to no information" sounds like it's trying to emphasize her Townie-ness through being uninformed, which seems like something that genuine Townies wouldn't do.

[explanation of the ScumList post]

You, uh, could've said this earlier instead of presenting unexplain scumlists and being all cryptic with "I'll tell you later".

Now, the real issue is how you jumped the gun and immediatly stablished "scum links" via RVS. It means you have absolute no ground to throw shade at anyone, because it's all a very uninformed assumption mostly driven by gutfeelings.

You see, what you accomplish by throwing shade at people this early on with no base to it, is harm the Town progress, because we now have to explain to you why that kind of behaviour is useless to us.

You can bark all you want, but if you don't have the factual bite behind it, then you'll get stomped by people less compassive than me.

I'll have to disagree with this. Although it is annoying that Elemina didn't justify anything at first, I do think it is reasonable to throw shade at people based on RVS interactions. That's how the game gets rolling into serious non-RVS discussions. You start with fluff like RVS and gutfeelings, which is then pursued to produce genuine serious reactions that players can read off of.

This post of Irony's makes me believe that she's new to mafia because she edits the post, seems to have some issue with the bold bbcode while quoting Blitz, and doesn't use common game contractions/terms (i.e. fully typing out "member of the mafia" over "scum").

I think she's town because she says "idk who's a member of the mafia or a member of the ensemble." A new player choosing to say "ensemble" over "town" most likely means that either they used the term from their town role pm, or was told by a buddy to write their post in such a way. I highly doubt it's the latter because a buddy wouldn't have been fine with them saying "I'm going to abstain from playing d1."

I do agree that Irony seems like a new player. But like I said, the emphasis on lack of information sounds more like newb!scum than newb!town imo. Choosing to say "ensemble" instead of "town" is a solid point, but there was still eclipse's role PM to work with, and she may have been deliberately trying to be careful to avoid using the word "town" by realizing that a town role PM would say they're part of the "ensemble".

##Vote: Blitz

...what is this? Your earlier post on Blitz was asking him about why he was making sense of my actions, so how on Weyard did you deem him to be scummy enough to warrant a vote? And please don't just vote for somebody without any explanation; you saw how annoying it was when Elemina did that.

Town:

Ryker > Elemina > Refa

Scum:

Blitz > Irony

@YOLO - Critique that list.

@Spinal - I won't be lynching Elemina today short of a MASSIVE shift in my read. What is your read on Elemina?

Ok, back to football.

Again, why

[justification for the following vote]

##Vote: Ryker

I agree that Ryker has been handling his "scumhunts" pretty badly, but I'm not sure whether that actually makes him "scummy". His behavior feels more like unproductive Town than Mafia to me, because it really draws a lot of justified negative attention.

[explanation of first post and response to those who found it scummy]

Although the explanations aren't any different from what I would expect from scum, the way it was expressed feels more like newb!Town than newb!scum, so Irony looks fine now.

Ah, so bone man DOES have a spine. Tat's nice.

Okay, let's extend this exercisee.

You claim I only voted you because Eliminated voted you. This is true.

You claimed I unvoted you because Eliminated unvoted you. This is also true.

You claim I voted after a quote to imply it's soooooooo obvious. This is true.

I deny none of these accusations. I openly admit to implying that your post was scummy despite it simply being a bandwagon vote. Why did I do that, Spinal?

@Refa I voted Irony because he is either scum or town I'm okay with seeing dead at this point. Do you agree with that assessment?

Aside from the clear confession of being a sheep, I don't like how you're acting as if you voted Irony instead of Blitz (which is what Refa was actually asking you about). And no, it can't be because you accidentally wrote Blitz when you meant Irony because the post right after your votepost had an explicit "Blitz > Irony" on scumreads. I thought you were unproductive Town before this point, but when you forget your own votes and scumreads it really sounds like you're fabricating reads in an attempt to look Townish, when you don't actually think that your targets are scum. In other words, you look really scummy right now.

##Vote: Ryker

I asked YOU to figure it out because I want to know if you are capable of defending other viewpoints or if you are interested in pushing a vote and seeing if a player will roll over and take a lynch.

You freaking admitted that you were sheeping Elemina, what more are you asking Spinal to "figure" out? I think Spinal made his perspective pretty clear about why explicit sheeping with no independent thoughts was scummy (which I disagreed with, since I didn't actually think you were deliberately sheeping... until you outright admitted it). Seriously, Ryker, you're looking really suspicious at this point.

Specifically, Elemina, can you save me having to type on my phone and explain to Irony why players need to interact and push on Day 1?

No. Stop this. Think for yourself instead of getting Elemina to do everything for you. It really feels like you're latching on to Elemina and trying to push all the responsibility for your decisions to her. That's not how it works. Your words and decisions are your own responsibility; not Elemina's. You agreeing with Elemina is fine, but for you to blatantly sheep Elemina and to explicitly refuse to provide any more justification beyond sheeping Elemina is really terrible. It sounds like scum trying to avoid bearing any responsibility for their own decisions so that Elemina (who is probably Town) would get into the spotlight instead.

Oh, it was just my negligence.

Between Ryker and Spinal, Spinal seems to be the one desiring to prolong it. It's not that I take Ryker's side in the "no, you're scum!" slapfight, it's more that Spinal's only been tunneling Ryker while Ryker's been trying to carry more than a single conversation.

Proto's "Ryker put an easy third wagon vote on GP which'll enable him to cruise later on. But right now I'm Ryker randomly" is voteworthy too.

Would not lynch Ryker nor Refa.

##Unvote

##Vote: Spinal

While I do agree that Spinal is tunneling on Ryker, it was Ryker who was deliberately avoiding addressing Spinal's case on him while openly admitting to sheeping Elemina. Add in the purely unexplained Blitz scumread + vote that he supposedly forgot he ever had, and I'm actually quite surprised that you don't find Ryker to be the one behaving suspiciously. I personally think Spinal's stance is justified, though I do think he should realize by now that it's pointless to continue arguing with Ryker when Ryker made it clear that he will not cooperate (which I still find as being scummy).

...I actually legit didn't notice that my first RVS vote was on Ryker until you mentioned it, oops. Looks like my vote never changed, heh.

I like this vote. I'll join.

##Vote: Blitz

...why

Ryker has provided zero explanation for his Blitz scumread. I even just ISO'd him right now to see if I missed something and nope, his only acknowledgement of Blitz (outside of his scumread and vote posts) was when he asked him to explain his stance on me. Which should put more shade on me than on him, if anything.

So, Elemina, care to explain why you liked this vote? And why you're joining in? What is the actual reason you're voting Blitzy; are you really just sheeping Ryker, or do you have some other reasons you're not disclosing?

Unrelated, I miss Rainbow, i want him to be my friend.

Awwww...

##Unvote: Ryker

...

...

No, screw you, I'll be your friend if you can satisfyingly answer all the issues I had with you which I mentioned earlier in this post.

##Vote: Ryker

Uhh, I think I responded to his post? But I definitely didn't answer. That observation is correct.

This whole "I'm gonna vote X and refuse to explain why" is a terrible thing to do. Stop it.

[more Ryker tunneling]

Spinal, just stop, please. I agree with you and all, but Ryker made it clear that he has no intention addressing the issues you raised. There's more going on in this game than Ryker's extremely suspicious play.

On Blitz:

1. He doesn't adddress me when defending Rainbow nor does he ask me why I voted him.

2. His read on you doesn't seem convincing, seems like newb-scum trying to push on some low hanging fruit.

3. He takes too long to respond to Green Poet.

Finally some reasons. But really, you could've said this while voting him instead of waiting for someone to inquire about it.

1. Why would he address you or ask you anything? If you read his defense, he was simply trying to explain why I said what I did, and wasn't trying to accuse anybody who voted me.

2. Though I disagree, this seems like a solid justification for your vote. Blitz is not newb for any alignment btw.

3. People aren't active 24/7. Most of us sleep and have a life outside of SF Mafia.

Spinal is being stubborn and sounds genuine. Him saying that I'm wrong reeks of townie, and considered that I was town with incorrect theory. He seems to believe that Ryker is scum for not going by the book of mafia but I think he believes it. He is misguided.

I don't think he was misguided, but he does sound genuine, yes. And although I agree with him, I'm not actually townreading him. In fact, since Ryker's behavior is so easy to attack, it would be a great opportunity for scum!Spinal to do so if Ryker is actually non-Mafia.

Ryker simply because he's active, producing reads, and I like his Blitz vote. That's it though, null-townie means neutral-townie. Neutral means either or. So neutral-townie is slightly more townie than neutral. Yet I need more from him.

But why do you like his Blitz vote? I can understand that you agree with voting Blitz, but I can't comprehend why you would like someone's vote that they never explained (even and explicitly admitted to have deliberately avoided explaining it).

im looking at the blitz/spinal/green poet pool atm. spinal cuz i feel most of his content is reactionary without looking past who hes engaging (first w/elemina then ryker) and im like "wheres the scum reads bro"

theres some other scum runnin round but thatll come in time

swag

@spinal wheres da scum reads bro

##vote blitz

fos spinal

fos green poet

Can you explain your Blitz and Green Poet reads? You only commented on Spinal.

This game started at a terrible time for me and I'm still busy. Mafia sucks.

##Vote: Green Poet

The Spinal vote doesn't sit right with me, considering she completely ignored the slot prior (even when they were one of the only people with cases on them earlygame) and said the argument she based her case on was more about being right or wrong than alignment focused. The timing of the vote ("oh my old one doesn't work anymore") makes me feel like its being made to avoid getting in trouble rather than because they believed it.

Honestly the way posts have gone down has made the game really difficult to parse. I don't think Ryker or Spinal are particularly scummy and my brain is just going zzzzz because their argument in 50% of the thread. Will probably try again after work.

Well, her point about Spinal tunneling on Ryker is true, though the way I see it, Ryker was baiting Spinal and is still consciously being unproductive as hell. So I can't really blame Spinal, but I do think he should drop the tunneling. While I don't agree with Green Poet's vote either, I can understand her issues with Spinal tunneling Ryker and not doing anything else.

And now I will go make breakfast. I'm not sure if spending 2.5 hours on reading the thread and writing this post was a good idea. I'm hungry.

[Kriemhild]

(I plan to post some general thoughts after breakfast btw)

[Zkirsche]

Oh my god nine pages I am not ready.

[Zkirsche]

Ryker must be trying to be the most aggravating thing in existence but that can come from both town and scum. Ryker, can you explain either your Blitz scum read and clarify if your vote on Spinal was ever serious because I don't think it was. Spinal always plays like this. A super serious everything-at-face-value kinda guy.

welcome to sf mafia

yeah, "accidentally" kill the doctor.

Refa seems less active than other games.

Proto's post is really good and sheepable so

##Unvote

##Vote: Ryker

[Zkirsche]

We need ISOs.

[Ryker]

ALSO IMPORTANT NOTE: Some of you are not unvoting your previous votes before re-voting. If you do not unvote before voting for a new person, your new vote will not be counted. If you notice any discrepancies between your listed vote and actual vote, this is likely why.

Uhhhh, why? That seems to add an extra step for no particular cause unless I'm missing something.

##Unvote GP Vote Blitz

[Ryker]

Why do we need ISOs and why aren't you doing them?

[Ryker]

Also, no, I never intended to vote Irony. I intended to say Blitz instead of Irony when asked though.

Where did Blitz even go? Still waiting on slots like him to weigh in.

##Unvote Blitz Vote Rainbow

ZOMG OMGUS

Rainbow ez scum.

[Ryker]

Also, I like the comment that I'm unproductive when I'm responsible for most of the stances in this game.

[Ryker]

##Unvote Blitz Vote Rainbow