Quasar

Since Rickard already is above four people his thieving utility obviously is worth something seeing how his other traits sure didn't get him there. Whether it's something worth more than Midia's combat I won't comment on but when/if arguing Julian it'd be nice to have equality with it. Obviously he has extra chapters but if his only job for a chapter would be to open chests it shouldn't be worth more than Rickard's effort at it.

Been somewhat busy with fluid mechanics and whatnot but I managed to play up to 9 to check the leveling. I had a 12 Lance with B Alan and C Roy at the end of Ch 8. Supports: I only got the C Roy at 8x and getting C with Alan took until the end of Ch 4 but with Javelin use being more popular it got faster. Suppose it's pretty safe to say that fast supports with units having similiar move are great and I for one have been underestimating their growth pace. On another note supports with healers and supports between units having a move difference were ridiculously slow to utilize. Levels: I was pouring exp only on Lance, Alan, Lot, Rutger, Dieck and Lugh and I still got Lance to only 12. The way I played Lance is way past the point of favoritism in my opinion but w/e. I also tried to level up Thany but she's so shit it's kind of nasty. I had her at 4 by Ch 7. I tried to kill with her, I really did, but her unimpressive hit rates, poor damage and not doubling with anything not SL make it uncool. Care to explain how your Thany is 9 @ 7 Reikken because I don't really see that happening. Thany definitely needed the raise but uhh > Lot? Anyway. Did I play efficiently? I don't know because the turn counts for efficient play aren't defined. There were things I had forgotten about some of the maps such as reinforcement appearing turns so sometimes I had to pull off emergancy evasive maneuvers such as sacricing Bors meaning that a second playthrough could probably shave turns off too but I'm not sure how low they're supposed to go in any case. With that in mind here's what I got: 1 9 2 9 3 12 4 11 5 14 (scenery route) 6 14 7 14 8 23 (think this could be improved quite a bit) 8x 10 I recorded levels and support levels characters gained along with additional notes in each chapter while playing too but let's leave those for another time.

Since I kind of named Bioshock as well it's story time. When Bioshock was released I was visiting a friend of mine who had just gotten a 360 and the game. I had heard about Bioshock and despite being pretty suspicious due its heavy hype I wanted to give it a spin. So the game starts. Plane crashes to water, the guy rises to surface. A while later my friend asks "why are you just standing still?". All that time I thought it was an FMV and the game looked so stunning I had no idea it was the actual graphics in the game. I'm not really the one to run after graphics but first impressions are important. And that was a lasting impression. Excellent use of lighting on Ryan's slogan just further ahead seemed like nothing after being to the ocean elevator ride. At this point I was sold. I got it off Steam, got frustrated by copy protections but eventually managed to enjoy the game that didn't disappoint even during the final moments. Needless and needlessly long rant about my experiences with PC games of late.

Let's take "whoever" here because I admit it's less of a problem with the Cavs. I already said you don't move the characters in situations where they would get themselves killed. Now let's say we move Lot two spaces away from his support partner. What we have gained by doing this is effectively give Lot +2 movement range for the turn. If you ask me it makes perfect sense since being able to move further gives you more and better options than what you had with less move. Do note that if you'd have to retreat the next turn it's not worth going in to begin with. What the numbers don't show is that catching up with the rest of the team isn't going to happen immediately in every case. Facing two enemies with a team of ten is going to leave some of the party behind for some turns. Well, either way I suppose it doesn't matter anymore. I actually had to go and check where this all began just now. I recall someone proving Zealot > Noah/Treck in this thread unless it was eaten up. Maybe the person who did it can say something about this, I haven't looked to them. Gonzales was recently kind of screwed over. There used to be two versions of Gonzales for each route split and the better one was right above Shin. It was suggested that they be next to each other and then they got merged to one. The worse one. Both are worth a look if you ask me.

What's the difference? I don't see it. Jagen in worse than Marcus in relation to enemies but so is the rest of your team.

Let's see if it works now. Why? Let's take Marcus instead of Jagen though. He's great for early game but why would he suddenly be so bad? It's not like he'll gain any negative utility, you don't really need to wall him or anything.

Posting with quotes doesn't seem to work properly for me, doesn't allow posting at all. Gives a time out. That's what I get for not trying to slack for once. Reikken>6 offensive units in ch 1, yes. 3 of which you won't be using later (one doesn't even gain exp off them) and so have no reason to give kills. It's a similar story for the rest of the chapters. It's probable Wolt won't be used later but that's no excuse to have Marcus damage two enemies and have Alan, Lance and Roy take the rest of the map on by themselves. If you are given resources with no cost (unit slot) there is no reason for you to not use them effectively. If you have enough time to prance around killing things with only three characters you might as well have used all the characters available, clear the chapter faster and hit the next arena and use the bonus turns you just saved this way to upgrade your characters. Reikken>Alan, Lance, and Roy need not all be 'lined up' at once. 3 turns of both next to Lance, and 3 turns each of Lance next just one of Alan or Roy makes for +6 support turns for each, and is spent over only 9 turns. Out of ~17. Leaving 8 turns where none of that's happening. ie the number of turns spent attacking (4+4) assuming every single attack is on player phase. He exceeds the quota very very easily. Now to reality: Make 40% of attacks on enemy phase, and even increase non-kill attacks by 2, and you have 6 turns spent attacking. Obviously not every attacking turn is impossible to build supports on, so make even just 1 of those work for supports, and you have ~12 turns for supports. 4 of all 3 together and 4 each of one of the two = 8 support turns per chapter with each supporter. Even blank out a turn completely for no reason, and that's 7-8. 7.33. It's 85 turns to A, but also 45 turns to B Roy, after which you no longer need to care about building supports with Roy and so can focus entirely on Alan-Lance. With this, it's just over 6 chapters to reach B Alan/Roy, which would be a few turns into ch 7. Factoring in that some of the earlier chapters (1, 2) are shorter, and later ones (lol ch8) are longer puts that more at the end of ch 7. Or more likely midway through ch 7 for one (Alan) and near the start of ch 8 for the other (Roy). Which correlates pretty exactly with my own experience, btw. When I decide where I end my turn support gain is probably the least priority I have. First of all I'm going to look at how many enemies can attack the character if I stay there. If it's the furthest I can go I will always go there. If it's not possible I choose the safest option closest to the throne. Let's say Alan has finished off an enemy and is slightly further behind. I'm not moving Lance next to him to say hello, I'm moving forward with the rest of the team. I guess to simplify it I'm constantly thinking "If I don't move as far as possible this time will it cost me a turn more to complete the chapter?". I'm not going to say my experience is better than yours but I've had very different results myself. I don't have numbers to specifically back this off right now since I haven't really thought about it in that much detail when playing but I'll keep it in mind next time I play. Should also get turn counts. Joker>Let's go back to Walt for a second. Him being forced for 4 chapters is the only reason he's above Karel and Dorothy. This being because you can just ditch Walt later. But by the whole game logic (which I do not agree with at all as it's only purpose is to fuck over utility characters), Walt CANNOT be ditched and we have to deal with his suck longer, which cancels out the whole reason why Karel and Dorothy were put under him. Either go the whole way with this logic or don't go anywhere with it. Marcus in High or Walt below Karel and Dorothy. Yes, Walt>Karel>Dorothy is outdated which is exactly why I said it needs to be looked at. There are some other similiar situations currently in the tier list. Robo Ky>I'll let you guys tug at it a bit more before we decide if the rules stops or not Be my quest if you want to argue about the rules but I won't be participating.

I was amazed after seeing how high scores the game had received. From the demo the voice acting, plot and setting seemed to be great but I found the actual gameplay lacking and mediocre at best. I suppose if you like Batman it automatically adds to the game but I've never been a fan myself.

You also get to see more of the game in Gaiden chapters. You don't need more than 15 characters so there's really no downside unless you wanted to keep everyone alive in the first place. Just switch Caeda back to PK if you think you could use the Wing Spear in a map. Str level ups aren't that bad for her, heavy tomes tend to slow her down.

3 hits and 3 kills sounds like a low amount, yes. Chapter one has 14 enemies and you have six offensive units. Now what? Chapter two has 20 enemies and you have ten offensive units. Now what again? Chapter three has 21+6 cav reinforcements (or 4?) and you have 12 offensive units. 11 disregarding Lugh. See where I'm going with this? Can you honestly say you'll be lining up Roy in between Alan and Lance even five times during a chapter? Unless you're suggesting he's carried which makes Lance killing that much enemies even more questionable. Even lining up Alan and Lance next to each other is kind of difficult when you're attacking things. Or are you suggesting we sandbag Alan and have him carry Roy and have him miss on Roy support by having Lance in between the two? Soon reach A? Then even five turn per chapters isn't enough. I've never had over C Alan+Lance at this point of the game. Of course. It also means once shinies start appearing he has no business killing things but needs to steal them or run after chests. Also you mentioned WTA for Chad. What about WTD which is what he's having for most of the time until Shin joins. It was agreed on that characters can't be dropped midgame and their performance during entire time available should be looked at. It's written on the first post of the thread. I'm not saying Marcus shouldn't be high but Chapters 1-7 aren't enough to do it on their own. I agree they're more valuable than chapters where you have many other good units but I wouldn't say twice as valuable.

No it's not. Marcus will be used for the rest of the game. What? Let's start with the more atrocius one, 14 Chad. You said it yourself - noncombat unit. Yet he's gained 13 levels during seven chapters. Yes thieves get more exp from combat but this is just ridiculous. Also 13 Lance and all supports you suggested are very much blown out of proportions for chapter nine.

Not that I want to bring up tier list drama again but I think this list has been managed really well. Not only because the person managing it has high activity on the forums and has created meaningful rules for the list so people can fight fairly and not resort to low blows all the damn time (see: FE8 tier list recently). It's kind of misleading to say a change was suggested and BS refused to make that change because he's stubborn. Joker and Robo Ky were against it as well. Not that you can't create a new list, but let's say someone does. What if you suggest a change in that list and some people are against it. What are you going to do, form a third list?

None of this covers the primary reason why Walt and Dorothy suck ass: Their stats. It wasn't supposed to. If you're referring to Dorothy vs Karel Dorothy's opportunities lie in being useful mid to late game before Karel joins. That is if she is useful. Edit: Also I don't understand why Shin is so underappreciated around here. You can't really give him negative points for Orion's Bolt either because there are four people needing it, you get two and Shin is pretty awesome compared to the three others unlike the situation with Guiding Rings where everyone and their mother needs one. Nomadic Trooper is probably the second best class in the game, losing only to Paladin.

I can't believe you put some kid between the lovers. Wait, maybe Rickard's their son.. Suppose I should say something not considered random spam too since it's a tier list topic after all. Thieving utility argument would hold a lot more water if there were (lots) more to actually pick open and things to steal since now it's only good for certain maps, unlike healing. Or of course if the ridiculously cheap keys didn't exist.

I'd give honorary mentions for Bioshock for being the best of the "current generation" and beatmania IIDX series for being generally awesome but I don't want to be called a faggot so I won't.

I think only the one executing the attack has to be a PK. What I meant was that when you remove flying and some Mov points from the sisters aligning them next to an enemy will be quite a bit harder unless the one you're targeting is a chapter boss.. but even in that case everyone dealing damage separately is better than Est TA since Est is the weakest and weakestx3 < weakest+stronger+stronger. This is of course neglecting taking less counters. Edit: Scratch that. "The three can be of any class, but the Triangle Attack only works if the intiator is attacking the enemy from melee range (i.e Range of 1)."

Another thing is that since Est is the weakest of the sisters she's also the least suitable to execute it and if assumed equality for them she only executes every third TA. One more problem that was mentioned earlier too is that it forces her sisters to stay as PKs to be effectively able to pull it off and they don't exactly want PK after a while. TA can be useful but it's definitely not without downsides.

Long coffee break. Too many things to quote on too many pages, sorry. Again. Wolt > Karel > Dorothy was agreed on and the basis was that 6 chapters >>>> 1 chapter where mediocre > 1 chapter where very slightly worse relatively. There is a problem here. Or actually it's only possible there is, I for one haven't checked Wolt and Dorothy's performance yet. Enemies usually come from a single direction. Average unpromoted enemies have five movement. Put a character directly in front of an Archer and enemies in that line will have to spend two extra movement to get to him assuming clear ground. Make that more for every forest/hill/wall/whatever in way. And this is only with a single character in the way, moving there naturally. Chances are others will join. What comes to penalizing for the lack of enemy phase I usually give them less levels in addition to the regular no one range minus when comparing too since it directly hurts your Exp gain somewhat but I don't really buy into triple punishment. If nothing else not taking a counter on enemy phase at least negates the somewhat rare occasion you'd have to wall them. Once again - you don't have to attack with them if it's too risky. Only time you need walling is when both of the following conditions are met: being killed on enemy phase and being attacked from so many directions you cannot avoid it. Walling outside these conditions is negative utility for favoritism. Reinforcements from behind in many chapters? Yeah, sure. But that's only the half truth. From the top of my head... Chapter 6 - full of chokepoints anyway, not to mention the whole map is so damn small it doesn't bother you Chapter 7 - not sure, I think you can outmaneuver them but maybe not Chapter 8 - sure. The amount of enemies blocking your progress forces you to fight them Chapter 11A - they come too late to be a problem Chapter 13 - upper route only, can be skipped (take town, return south) Chapter 14 - no way they'll get to you in time Chapter 15 - well, it's Percival Chapter 17B - too late Chapter 19B - hm, maybe. There are Cav reinforcements to the SW EDIT: oh yeah the "guerrilla forces", make it a "sure" then too Chapter 21 - definitely. Actually make that "from every direction" Chapter 24 - slowkutes can't catch you Don't remember Bartre/never been to Ilia. On a somewhat related note I think it's an ass game mechanic that enemy reinforcements attack on the same turn they appear on. If I want to play a god damn memory game I play a memory game. At least give a warning or something, it's not like you can't see charging horses until they're next to you shoving their Silver Lance in places you didn't want to expose to any object of that length.

I'd like to think Dorothy is better than Karel but 20/7 Dorothy is strictly inferior to join Karel. Since I can't say with good conscience she's doing anything worth mentioning the early game it would have to rely on her doing things mid game where Karel can't compete. I'll look to it more once I've had some coffee. They're reuploaded. Also see FE8 tier list for a perfect example why I was being an ass about having rules.

Ray > Lilina Garret is also definitely better than at least Lilina. Don't know about Ray. Base Garret is superior to Lilina in every possible way.

For what it's worth at first I thought it was crazy that someone suggested a character being worse than Est. Then I saw Arran's bases.

That's a bit disheartening. Maybe he meant that you being awesome was already proven.

Ray is definitely contributing earlier too. His problem is mostly that the hit rates make it somewhat annoying or the very least slower for him to level up. I think they're very close but not sure which of them is better overall. Nosferatu is cool and all and absolutely buyable at 14 but the damn thing costs like it's made out of gold. You're not exactly poor in this game but I don't really see Ray (or Niime for that matter) constantly running around vampiring. 3000 when compared to a physical unit staple at that point of the game - Killing Edge at 1300. And that's the most expensive of the Killer weapons.

Angelic Robe costs 4000 which is less than a Guiding Ring. You don't have enough Guiding Rings in this game to promote your magic users (two found). But the more I think about it the more it seems I put Ray at at too low level, I'll re-do the comparison with 20/2 Ray soon. Edit: here it is. I left the other one back there if someone thinks this is going overboard. 20/2 Ray 31 HP 20 Mag 15 AS (-1 for Nosferatu) S Dark, shit Staves -/18 Niime 32 HP 21 Mag 15 AS (-1 for Nosferatu, Flux AS already is -1 ) Better hit chance, A Dark and A Staves Ray is more durable now due higher Def and pretty much ties offensively. Ray will somewhat outperform her later, and does things earlier but I still say Niime is better right away due A staves.

It's kind of hard to estimate Ray's level at Niime's joining time but let's say.. level 19? Seven levels over a ten or so chapters should take low hit into account pretty well. Also let's say Niime gets a Robe since Ray uses funds for promoting. 19/1 Ray 30 HP 19 Mag 14 AS (-1 for Nosferatu) S Dark, shit Staves -/18 Niime 32 HP 21 Mag 15 AS (-1 for Nosferatu, Flux AS already is -1 ) Better hit chance, A Dark and A Staves Both have similiar durability as Ray has more Def (less Res though). Maybe I was overly careful with Ray's levels but I think Niime is the winner, barely. Ray can have some supports going here but they're not going to matter in the outcome and while it's true that Niime isn't going to get a lot better anymore there's not a whole lot of the game left in any case. Ray gathers some utility before this but they should be pretty close in the list it seems.