Quasar

You'd also need to revamp skill, resistance and luck. If you can hand-pick what you want why would want those when you can take strength, speed, defense and health? Maybe an additional cost for every point spent in a same attribute, ie. Ogma's first STR costs 6 points, next would be 7 etc? It'd still leave you the freedom of choice.

Hm. Generics' bases and growths are just the class ones if I recall correctly. That makes them statistically worse than every other character. What they do have is impressive availability but can you just assume they'll be with you from chapter 2 on?

Meh, I forgot that I already begun to hate negative utility once. I'm deserting from mid tier and joining forces with no negative utility. This has nothing to do with which is the most logical form for tier lists but purely based on what is most interesting to argue about. All methods have their flaws, there's no perfect choice that everyone will like and thus no negative utility and every unit being fielded in every chapter where available is the best option in my opinion. I'd also add that their supports will always be fielded but that might be pushing it. Supports are overrated anyway. Ignoring logical fallacies of all methods the reasoning to why this is more entertaining is in the flaws negative utility brings to debating. In most cases bad characters gather negative utility outside of their forced period, thus the most logical way to play them when arguing them is "can't be negative while forced and once it's over we'll just bench him/her". Great, why not just scratch one third off from every list, there's practically no difference how well sub-par people play if they're only fielded in a single chapter and "don't care, do some damage and go die". Removing negative utility you'd have to examine the combat prowess and/or general utility of the character until the end and can't end the case in a single sentence. Another example is a unit good early on but gets weak later. Let's see, theoritical example of Marcus vs. Zealot. They both get obsolete around the same time and negative utility forces them to the bench. Now this is not the case in reality but let's say Zealot would be significantly better than Marcus after they go to "negative". This would be completely disregarded and Marcus would steamroll over Z. If their performance as a whole would be looked at it wouldn't be so obvious that Marcus is the winner. Also clearly more interesting than Marcus > Zealot before Zealot joins, Marcus=Zealot when Zealot joins and after they get benched -> Marcus > Zealot. Some of this might already be said, I didn't exactly read all of the thread.

So Bors is more durable than Lance/Alan etc? You do know that the enemies will then ignore Bors and he'll just stand there doing nothing. Again. I'm not sure what you just said but what I heard was "I noticed I can't win the debate so I decided to try and sidetrack the arguments to their meaningless supports and from there to things not even remotely related to Fir and Klein. Then I opted to do another change to the tier list to make my opponent happy and save my case by suggesting they're equal. I sure hope I won't have to show any proof that Klein is better because it doesn't exist." Oh wait I just heard it properly. Revolutionized by this astounding logic I'm suggesting Marcus = Lance. Marcus starts leagues ahead of him, check. Marcus needs no promotion item, check. Marcus slows down when Lance catches up, check. Marcus still has uses when Lance is murderface, check. Complete, yet equal opposites. No need for additional proof, period. Of course before we do this we should discuss their supports, the more the better.

So who's gonna carry him around after promotion when he's still slow as fuck? This was already brought up by someone (dondon?) but I'll bring it up again. There's no way a tier gap between him and Ward isn't justified. Being able to be carried is why it's only a one tier gap. Also in any chapter where Bors is "spearheading the offense" I really question the efficiency of the playthrough. Edit: Someone take over Alan and Rutger, I just don't have the time to look at them. I'm not confident Alan is better, yet I doubt Rutger is a winner either and it should definitely be looked at, especially because Rutger was moved due supports of all things. My doubts with Alan are mostly because I'm afraid he's ranked for helping Roy survive. If Rutger is better it should be because he's a better character, not because his supports are "worse" than Lance's.. Also god damn Wolf, if you have this much time to hit your head against a wall (Bors) you have time to make a numerical statement of how Klein is better than Fir. Or just move Fir above him, they're still "equal".

Voted for mid tier. Technically I think it should be in relation to who is your average unit at given time, but mid tier is a start. To be honest I don't really care as long as a decision is made.

Technically he said in six chapters, which is even more silly. Why does A spears matter anyway? I'll post enemy comparisons for Alan and Rutger after sleeping, if I have the time.

I need to go to work like right now but I'll post what I managed to get done and continue later. There's some competition for the promotion items but let's say both get theirs when they reach 20, which would be around 14x/15 or something. 20/1 Allan (B Lance), Killer Lance -Supports: +2 Atk, +1 Def, +10 Avoid, +5 Crit 30 Atk 17 AS (12 w/ Steel Axe) 42 Crit 40 HP 14 Def 55 Avoid (WTT) 20/1 Rutger (C Clarine, C Dieck [tbh I don't think it's C yet but w/e]), Killing Edge -Supports: +10 Avoid, +10 Crit 25 Atk 21 AS 81 Crit 43 HP 12 Def 60 Avoid Alan is (very slightly) better with concrete durability and avoid once WTA is factored in. Rutger wins offense (slightly) but since Alan also doubles almost everything there are very few things he doesn't ORKO. Edit: Quick addition. Rutger needs at least one crit to ORKO. Assuming he doubles everything his chance for ORKO with 70 crit chance on your average enemy would be 100-(3/10)*(3/10)=91% which is very reliable. His avoid is unreliable though, but more on that later.

Did you remember to kill Est?

So statistically it seems Fir should be above Klein. At least nothing of contrary has been shown yet. You're right, it goes to offense vs utility etc. Chapter 4 for Rutger is kind of a moot point because he doesn't really have time to do a lot. At Ch 5 Rutger, while still stronger, already has a tough time against Lance due his crazy movement range. Lance also gains durability edge in the form of sword-using enemies and can use Javelin for 1-2 range. Promotion further increases the differences they have. I have yet to see a case in FE6 where supports are a huge deal. 1+1 supports can be safely ignored, X+1 can be a C by midgame and neglible afterwards (resulting in neglible stat gain). Really fasts supports with matching movement matter quite a bit, others, not so much. I also question Roy supporting the duo, unless he gets carried a lot.

Fir and Klein definitely shouldn't be on par (it might seem that they are if you only focus on arguing their supports for three pages and I don't doubt that this is a nice, friendly result for both of you but they're really not equal) and I don't see Rutger being better than Alan either. At very least I'd like to see some (numerical) reasoning. Edit: I also have an objection to Thany being better than Zeiss due her massive negative utility. Cab service is cool and all but doubling for one damage isn't impressive. Zeiss is amazing at join compared to what Thany was, only embarrassing himself with weapon skill and speed. You could also argue since there's no serious competion for Zeiss' promotion item he can promote at 10 and fix some of his issues.

If you shove the Wolfguard in the bottom right corner area and move your other troops close to the river the Cavaliers and Archers come to you instead of the Wolfguard if I recall correctly. There might still be one incoming from the left passage but you can take him out with Draco Jagen or Peg Sheeda (Wing Spear) if you want to save 'em all.

When does Klein's worse AS begin to show and at what point will Fir be clearly superior? I don't think supports, as fun as they are to argue, are going to make or break the case for either character here.

I'm not saying she doesn't get a lot of exp per kill. There's just really not a whole lot to kill up to when Klein joins especially considering how huge teams you're bringing to each of those maps and how she isn't able to one-round at that point, meaning that not every round of combat ends with kill exp. I suppose you can, of course, choose to baby her for the sake of the argument but I'm not sure it'd help more than hurt the case. Edit: I suppose I need to say what I think she's at instead of just saying "too high". If you ask me level 5-6 seems reasonable when Klein joins with Echidna route.

I'm not really disagreeing with Fir > Klein but I find 8 Fir by the time Klein joins highly unlikely, if not absurd with Lalum route. There's half of chapter nine, a full chapter ten and a third of chapter 11. Seven levels in less than two full chapters? The ballista in 10 doesn't exactly help either.

True and fair enough. What I meant in this case is that babying Catria is relatively easy because she does very well in said map despite being little. Edit: If Catria can't promote whenever she wants there's really no contest. I think I'll just skip downplaying what Minerva is doing earlier and agree with M>C.

A+B: Since there are rules for the list I will hide behind them and say that's not a problem. C: More of the game? Let's promote Catria at C17, 7 Minerva and 12/1 Catria sound about right? Catria is more durable right off the bat and makes up for having lower atk by having more AS. Let's call 17 a draw then, which is heavily in Minerva's favor given durability loss. Eight chapters where Minerva > Catria and ten chapters where Catria > Minerva. And this includes Minerva's joining chapter mind you. You also have to remember Ch 15 reduces the amount you have to baby Catria significantly. Here's 12/1 Catria with Steel Bow. (I forgot to add the 1 might from C bows to the earlier stats, oh well) 34 HP 22 ATK 21 AS 12 DEF 7 Minerva with Silver Bow 30 HP 24 ATK 16 AS 11 DEF One thing I don't understand is why she'd have to go through being an archer. Steel Bow for a while isn't that bad.

I can't usually be arsed posting here since the list is in pretty good shape and there are people constantly working on it. Might as well now since people broke the FE6 and FE7 lists (I like how you have rules people agree on by the way). Since you're giving Minny the "benefit" of no counters so let's do the same for Catria. 10 Minerva: 32 HP, 25 ATK, 18 AS, 12 def 15/1 Catria: 35 HP, 22 ATK, 22 AS, 13 def (Steel Bow) This is a huge win for Catria since 18 has enemies with 16-18 AS and now Catria is also winning durability. The sooner you promote Catria the sooner Minerva will be taking it up in the ass and I don't see why you'd wait until 20 to do so.

DotP has been out for a while now. It's quite possibly the buggiest game I have ever seen on 360 but it can't be all bad since I keep playing it all the damn time nowdays. Anyone else play it? Looking for someone who plays something other than Elf Deck or can host three or four player games without ragequitting if defeated? Let me know. I might as well keep talking, attempt to spark discussion or something. The concept around the game is solid. It's Magic, but simpler. An Arcade version, if you will. I had never played Magic before but I had been interested in it. The ridiculously complicated rules, damage calculations and terrible card costs (especially before the interweb became what it is today) prevented me from even trying. The tutorial in the game gets you going right away and the game holds your hand should you need it. There's also some pretty nice variety in game modes, including a two-player hotseat co-op campaign, online multiplayer against 1-3 opponents and as bonus a tutoring system. The decks are nicely done, I like how they all have varying styles and strategies involved. Elf Deck is pretty obviously the best but still very much beatable, counting on several key cards to be effective. Green is simple and effective, my guys are large in size and numbers and you just got ran over. Red gets in early damage and finishes the fight with direct damage. Blue is the choice of a puppet master. Deceptive plays and counterspells to kill everything your opponent does only to slowly claw him to death. If you can survive long enough to connect the strings that is. Black Deck has everything. Instant death, discard, weak fliers, strong fliers, weak ground creatures, strong creatures, corrupt damage and life drain. White has effective creatures, heavy life gain, powerful artifacts and strong defenses. Dragon Deck is all about stalling and accelerating your mana growth. The longer you can stall the game the more likely it is for you to win with your intimidating dragons. The last one is a Red/Green/White mixup relying on heavy mid-game damage, very efficient creatures and nasty tricks to kill enemies before they get their own game going. I don't really care about building my own deck so my major concern with the game is that it fuggen freezes all the damn time. You got a loading screen with an angel in it? That's a freeze. Loading screen with an artifact creature in it? Freeze. A lost player pauses the game and quits in live? Freeze. You were about to win the game the next turn? Have a freeze. Apparently there's a patch coming but since it's not done already they're not making it fast enough.

And yet another tier list falls victim to negative utility. It is counterintuitive alright. I'm not sure there is a way to put characters in tiers that makes sense and is entertaining to discuss. Anything is better than assuming that non-high tier characters want to avoid negative utility and either aren't fielded after forced period or go out and die on the first enemy they can. The example dondon gave about mid-tier characters joining at different times applied to this would lead to both being about equal - only used for a single chapter and ranked according their performance in it. Fascinating.

I'm in 7 now and been liking it so far. Here's some feedback. -I've been playing with unpromoted Seth but if the crest is removed I'd like to see it introduced at a reasonable point for free because you're effectively losing a promotion item. -Vanessa could use one or two more base STR although flier utility is still great ie. in the chapter Joshua joins at. Colm is also very weak now but I don't consider that too nasty with him being a thief and all. -Personally I'd like to see either advantages to mid-chapter shopping or disadvantages to map shopping. I like when I need to make a decision between having a character join the attack or go out of his way to buy more swords. -Maybe do something to the necrophilic Paladin too even though it's just a single chapter. Dude was crazy.

Summoner is easily the most useful and unique magic class. Promoted horseriders can fight for the runner-up medal.

Given how I sometimes have the patience of a three-year-old I'll just skip the foreplay and go straight to why I brought up 14 AS. Armors, Steel Fighters, Bolting Mage, Purge Bishop and a possibility for 1 Steel Sniper, 2 Mamkutes and 3 Bishops is what you can double - 17 out of 31 enemies, not counting reinforcements. Now let's assume this is Bors we're talking about and not general nonsense. You can double Douglas but it's more of a hindurance because you're risking killing him now. You can double the Bolting Mage but you'd have to be warped where he is to be able to hit him so he doesn't count either. You can double Mamkutes but it's not like you want to touch them with Bors so Javelin for two damage I guess. The Sniper is locked away and one of the Fighters can use Hand Axe to prevent getting doubled but I guess they still count. So what we have left is 13/31. I'd hardly call this a good amount of enemies you can double. With 17 AS you could double everything that's not Narshen or a Merc, making it a respectable 22/31. Assuming only two Mages land on 13 AS since it's kind of rare 16 AS could double 20/31. I'd say for this chapter the AS you need to be able to shout "Guys, I can double here!" is 16. Discarding Bors and resuming theory mode it would be 24/31 with your fast grasp only being escaped by damn lucky Mages, Mercs and the chapter boss. And none of them can even double you. Edit: Added the Purge Bishop

IWBTG was fun but I'm not sure hard would be the word I'd use to describe the difficulty. Since you have no idea what's going to happen basically you get trolled by the game, laugh and try again with the knowledge regarding the current screen you just gained. If you had above average platforming askills and preferrably a game pad it was just about grinding one part repeatedly until you got to the next savepoint. This is the part where I'm tempted to call all MMOs hard due the endless grinding but I'll pass. Guilty Gear XX is a pretty challenging fighting game. Tons of balanced characters (Accent Core..) and enough gameplay mechanics to keep you interested and improving for ages if you like that kind of stuff. Three different ways to block etc. Ikaruga is rough as well but I'm not that good at shmups. It's a nightmare on co-op if you're not really well coordinated. Zombies (Ate My Neighbours) is hard as hell to say the least if you don't want to go through it in a single run and use a password, losing all your weapons except the water pistol. Besides those three that were on the top of my mind I'll give an honorary mention to those .

Just create one if you feel like spending the time to do it. If someone has a problem with a ranking you can be sure they'll let you know. And if they have too much problems they'll creater their own rankings.