nflchamp

Yeah. I mean the only other thing you would want Ike to use after you get it would be a Hammer for the Black Knight and MAYBE a Wyrmslayer for the Dragons. B-b-but no more 5 defense and 1-2 range. D: I'd rather take an enemy phase in that chapter over an assured ORKO. Ike's Inventory Wyrmslayer Ragnell Concoction/Vulnerary/Elixir/whatever Trade Concoction/Vulnerary/Elixir/whatever for Wyrmslayer. Bam, Ragnell equipped for enemy phase. It isn't like a Heron doesn't exist either.

You can't Master Crown Mist.

Like who? Boyd and Oscar? Two come in part 1, and characters like Jill and Aran would love a Robe. As for the third....I dunno. Mist or Rhys could use it. Maybe Soren. She certainly isn't getting a Part 1 Robe. Ain't happening. But the Robe that you basically get right when Neph rejoins in 3-2 is up for grabs. Rhys sucks in the durability department even with the Robe. Mist might be able to get some use out of it, but her DEF growth is even worse than Nephs. And she starts with even less durability. Soren is a lot like Mist. Seriously, I think Boyd and Oscar are probably the two who get the most out of the 3-1 Robe who aren't named Neph. Edit: I think Ulki getting a Robe is a hilarious idea.

Like who? Boyd and Oscar?

This is your first incorrect statement. She can get a Steel Lance for 2-2. Sure, she loses 4 mt, but she now doubles the majority of the map. I don't know about you, but going from 16, to double 12s is an improvement in my mind. Not to mention 2-range gives her the ability to better position for Leanne in 2-2. My Neph w/ a javelin does 5 damage to a halberder before considering possible support with Brom, height advantage mt bonus, and level ups (along w/ the possibility of doubling because of level ups). There's also a short spear available to be shared w/ the likes of Marcia. So I don't know how yours is doing 0-3 unless you're being an idiot and trying to use her unnecessarily against generals. In part 3 Neph can get a steel forge and can double a good number of enemies. Her durability is admittedly still shabby. ~34HP/16DEF supportless at level 5. 33+ MT 2HKOs. 34+ MT w/ Brom support. However, that 3-1 Seraph Robe makes her ~41HP/16DEF at level 5. 37+ MT 2HKO, 30-36 MT 3HKO supportless. 38+ MT 2HKO, 31-37 3HKO w/ Brom support. That's pretty good considering almost no enemies have 38+ MT and a few have 30 or less, so mostly 3HKO'd. She'll remain 3-4HKO'd for a while too. Not to mention that HP will cap that much sooner, so whatever BEXP she gets will more likely go to STR and DEF. She also levels faster than pretty much everyone else and she actually has offense to try to get EXP. Edit: P.S. I think Neph does better with a Robe than with a Shield.

Can you get over the fact that 'Aran can be critted in 1-4' is constantly brought up? I'll put it out there so you can understand it. The crit Aran faces in 1-4 is considered important because every enemy on the map has it on him and Aran is likely to die from any crit he takes during an attack. The crit pretty much anyone else faces in considered largely unimportant (though it still matters) because it is usually only one or two enemies that pull crit and don't even necessarily need to be attacked by said unit who faces crit. Take your Mia dying for example. There are a billion different things you could have done in admittance that there was a crit rate in order to prevent the possibility from ever occurring, but you simply chose not to. Edit: I like grammar, I just refuse to use it sometimes.

I could supply the party hats.

I will point out now is that smash didn't give Mia adept in 3-P or 3-1. The big difference being that Aran faces 1-2 crit every time he attacks in 1-4 (unless he procs LCK, in which case he faces 1 crit from half the map), while Mia faces 2-3 crit from three enemies who she might not even end up facing. I'll edit more in if I feel like.

Because he's misrepresenting arguments, that's why.

Nah, you missed it. I'm saying the only goal of the chapter is to kill Ludveck. Considering I can accomplish this goal on turn 1 or 2, everything else I do is solely to improve characters. This includes taking more turns, gaining EXP, obtaining items, and working on strike level. After all, that was what I was initially stating is that 2-E is nothing but a self-improvement chapter. What smash is ignoring is that I've actually said taking more turns, gaining EXP, etc. > than winning on turn 1 or 2 (at least it usually is) and seems to think I have some problem with obtaining the items. Oh yeah, and smash has never proven that having two people tank the left stairs in inefficient. Just saying.

.... you do realize that the general with the shield is in the very back, right? Heather has 7 move and Pass. The general isn't that far back. The arms scroll is a free 4000 gold, so I don't know why it's "questionable". The reason why people now think the GMs are rolling in money is because we are shipping over various items for them to sell, and the arms scroll is one of them. If I can ship so much stuff over (including this arms scroll) that I can't use all the gold I get, is it really important that I suddenly take out one 4000 gold item? No, I understood completely. That doesn't justify you complaining about it. How about you take your own criticism and start reading my posts? ... I have no idea what you're talking about. by getting the items like energy drop, I make my team stronger and make future chapters easier. Why should it matter if they're only "tools for improving a character" if they make the game go by faster either way? So are you going to sit here and complain about the energy drop/shield/etc. being "tools for self-improvement", or are you actually going to tell me why going faster >>> going slower but getting these items? Alright, smash, I'm going to run through the series of posts so you can understand what I'm talking about as you apparently can't remember/re-read what this discussion is about. 1)You say Lethe sucks at tanking the left stairs untransformed. 2)I bring up how Lethe should be tanking transformed. 3)You say that Lethe can't stay transformed without hogging Olivi Grass. 4)I say that you can use a second person to tank so Lethe can rework up her gauge. 5)You complain about how using two people to tank is bad. 6)I bring up how we can beat the chapter at any point we feel like and how the chapter is just about self-improvement anyways (aka it doesn't matter we're using two people to tank). 7)You bring up how we lose out on items if we win on turn 1. 8)I correct you and tell you that I said we could win at anytime, not just turn 1. I proceed to point out how getting items you complained about missing out is still just about self-improvement. 9)You still don't understand what I'm saying and tell how obtain said items help the team in the future. You also say we have to push through the general swarm to get all items. 10)I agree that obtain the items will speed up future chapters, but tell you that does nothing to change the fact that the chapter is still completely about self-improvement. I also tell you how you don't need to push through the general swarm. 11)You somehow think that I'm complaining about getting the items, despite the fact that I have yet to say that we shouldn't get them (because we probably should). You also prove that you either can't count or can't think critically. In other words, all I'm saying here is that the chapter is solely about self-improvement. I haven't made any assertion here that not getting the items or drawing the chapter out is the wrong thing to do, just that having two people tank the left stairs isn't a problem. Edit: Fixed my crappy quotes.

Flyers and Leanne allow you to just plop Heather in range of the shield and steal it on whatever turn you feel like. No danger so long as you kill Ludveck on the same turn. Also, I only want the Arms scroll if I can get it to the GM. And it is only questionably worth getting then. Yes, that is the idea. I'm not saying that the items won't make other chapters go faster indirectly by improving characters. I'm saying you're not completing this chapter as quickly as possible solely to improve characters for later. Are you not understanding what I meant when I said the chapter was nothing but self-improvement for characters?

Depends on how you define self-improvement. The stat boosters just allow someone who isn't necessarily in the chapter to improve themselves due to the chapter's existence. In my mind, that is still nothing but "self-improvement."

Well, from what I'm guessing, in the range of the turns 9-10 we're going to be able to get the items we really want (Nullify, Energy Drop, maybe Silver Greatlance and Draco if you planned it well) even if we take our time. And you'll have gained a fair amount of EXP as well. I don't know if the last 5-6 turns are worth playing out if we're not going to get anything substantial from them. So I guess I'm really asking when everyone thinks the extra EXP stops being worth the turns (if ever).

Apologies for asking in the midst of Janaff vs. Zihark, but smash's topic actually brought something up for me. How long do we take in 2-E? I mean, we can beat the chapter on any turn we want to, right? So shouldn't we end the chapter once the remaining gains (EXP, items, etc.) no longer outweigh playing the remaining turns?

I didn't say "beating the chapter on the first turn was the way to go." I said: Now, if you read that properly, that says I can win on any turn I down right feel like it, not "turn 1." On a completely different note, getting the items in this chapter is still only self-improvement, considering obtaining them has nothing to due with chapter completion. Just because weight is put on them (rightfully so, as they help with game completion) doesn't mean they anything other than tools for improving a character.

I apologize that I thought 2-E was nothing more than a self-improvement chapter in the first place. It isn't like we can beat the chapter at any time we please, including turn 1.

Like anybody who isn't locked to swords wants a storm sword/tempest blade.

What, you have more than one tank. You don't have to have her tank every turn to get a good amount of strike level.

I don't know who suggested it to you, but tanking w/ Lethe untransformed at the top of the stairs is totally pointless. We care about strike level, not EXP (aka we want her to double (aka we want her transformed))

What does it matter if they take it from the DB? Who in the DB is going to make use of the speedwing?

1-2 range isn't that important in a 1 player game. We generally kill all 2-range and 1-2 range enemies on player phase once they've approached the group because they can kill all those crappy durability units even if they're behind a wall of durable units. Unless everyone in range of the enemy has 1-2 range weapons, the enemy is just going to attack a 1-range unit. Even if everyone has 1-2 range equipped, the enemy is going to attack the weakest unit of the bunch. 1-2 range really only helps a unit extend their own attack range on player phase by 1. I don't know why we should bother hurting the offense of the team to deal damage to 1-2 range and 2-range enemies on enemy phase when they only probably make up a total of ~20% of enemies in the game. And 75% of those are mages/bishops, who we can ORKO on player phase with almost anyone. Edit: @Robo Ky - We already have that idea, we call it "slowplaying" BEXP.

This is what the majority of people here likely disagree with you on. It is extremely difficult to be worse than an empty unit slot in this game. There are units that are better than others, but it almost never occurs where an empty unit slot is doing better than a unit. (An empty unit slot could beat Astrid in 2-3, though, depending on your perspective.) Of course there's a negative associated with using BEXP. It's just that if the team doesn't care whether it has X or X + Y BEXP, then the negative is basically non-existent. Even if the negative amounts to something, you have to compare it to the positive gained from using it. The unit will have more positive utility (aka move up on the tier list) if the positive from using the resource outweighs the negative. In other words, using a resource is both a positive and a negative. You can't just say "taking BEXP is a negative" and handwave it as a win for a unit that doesn't use any. I'd like to mention that if Lethe does even 1 point of untransformed damage to an enemy while not dieing, she gets the EXP for damaging an enemy of a 20/1 unit and not a 20/20/2 unit. Edit: Sorry, looking at the wrong column there. :P

Question: does Lethe get wexp for fighting she does in 3-1 as a partner unit?

You know, I don't particularly care too much, but Vika's base SPD is 30 transformed. I was unaware any enemies had 34 SPD even in hard mode.