nflchamp

You're putting words into people's mouths again. Shinon having a 9.0 is not an issue (at this moment). Boyd being 3.5 points away at 5.5 is.

The Ike 1 and his team are facing weaker enemies than Ike 2 and his team example doesn't do justice to the situation. The reason is because Ike 1 and Ike 2 (along with their teams) are actually identical. The entirety of the difference between Ike 1 and Ike 2 is enemy strength. The difference in enemies might change how the situation looks, but Ike 1's and Ike 2's performances relative to their teams are equal. Or rather, Ike 1 = Ike 2 despite the change in enemies. In other words, your assertion that Ike 2 > Ike 1 involves ranking relative to enemies. This doesn't make any sense at all. Why would utility have different values? Especially, why would the unit with "more utility" be inferior to the unit with "less utility"? You'll need to elaborate more because I'm not seeing it. I'm not sure why everyone is having difficulty with this concept, really. You even used it yourself to get to Ike 2 > Ike 1. The concept is simply this: the more difficult it is do something the more doing that something is worth. In your Ike 1 and Ike 2 example it is more difficult for any PC in Ike 2's team to do well in the chapter than it is for any PC in Ike 1's team (due to stronger enemies). Therefore, Ike 2 (who is good) gains more utility than Ike 1 (who is also good). I simply apply the same concept to gaining utility. It is more difficult to gather utility, either positive or negative, on a stronger team. Therefore, the utility gathered on a stronger team is worth more than the utility gathered on a weaker team. I've already said that enemy strength is part of what makes a chapter difficult. PCs are always partially to blame for making a chapter difficult though. If the DB cannot keep up with enemy growth (at least statistically) while the GM can, then that is a fault of the DB that makes them weaker than the GM.

Yes, I shouldn't have used the names. Already been over that. This seems so abstract I cannot really put it into any meaningful context. Could you perhaps make a specific example where this applies? Any DB vs. any GM is pretty much the idea. Units have to be on seperate teams or it'll be a direct comparison and this is pointless. Now follow along: GM chapters are generally considered easier than DB chapters. Therefore, the GM are stronger than the DB. It is more difficult to gather utility, either positive or negative, on a stronger team. Therefore, the utility gathered on a stronger team is worth more than the utility gathered on a weaker team. As such, a good DB member is able to easily gain large amounts of utility because his/her team is weak while a good member of the GM has difficulties gaining utility because his/her team is strong. However, the small amount of utility the GM member gains is worth as much as the large amount of utility the DB member gains because it is more difficult for the GM member (and/or it is easier for the the DB memeber) to gain utility. In my hypothetical, the point was supposed to be that the characters had equal utility, making the character in the stronger team clearly better. The wording might have confused you about how much utility the two actually had, which is my fault as much as yours. I apologize if that is the case.

A way of ranking is to give a unit negative utility for the inefficiency of being used over another character. It's all about efficiency, the views on how to determine a units efficiency are just different. Is it right to let a unit gather positive utility early and then ignore the chapters they'd incur negative utility simply because another unit is better?

You are correct. What you quoted says nothing about the differences between each unit. This does: Edit: And I was beat to it.

I really should have changed everything to unit A and unit B. This is the internetz, I shouldn't expect both reading and comprehension from everyone. Alright, I'm basically going to screw the poll (it was largely unimportant anyways) with this post and turn this topic into discussion. If you don't care about the tier list, you probably won't care about the rest of this post (which is fine; you don't have to care about this if you don't want to). Zihark's and Mia's performances, in respect to their teams, are completely identical with equal availability in the hypothetical situation. As an extention, in respect to their teams, they bring equal utility. Zihark's chapters are more difficult, though. In the tier list here, characters are compared against the rest of the team and not the enemies. Due to this, the correct answer within the current tier setting is Mia. Chapter difficulty is the key factor here. There are 2 variables that contribute to chapter difficulty: 1) Enemy Strength. 2) PC Strength. If 1) is the variable that causes one chapter to be more difficult than another then, by current tier standards, the answer to the hypothetical question is Neither. The change in Enemy Strength means nothing as PCs are only compared to other PCs. If 2) is the variable that causes one chapter to be more difficult than another then, by currect tier standards, the answer to the hypotherical question is Mia. For a chapter to be more difficult due to PC Strength, the team of PCs must be weaker. The stronger the team, the tougher it is to contribute utility. The PC on the stronger team is better since they provided the same utility when it was more difficult to do so. Both Enemy Strength and PC Strength play a part in the difficulty of every chapter. As such, PC strength is always part of the reason a chapter is more difficult than another. Therefore, as Zihark's chapters are more difficult than Mia's, Mia has to be the better of the two characters in the hypothetical situation here.

Since you need not care about tiers to have an opinion, I'll recreate it here. I'm using a hypothetical to get at the underlying reason a character is ranked, so no one complain about it. I'm looking at what effect chapter difficulty plays in how we rank the characters. If Zihark's and Mia's preformances relative to their teams were absolutely identical (and they had equal availability, so that isn't in the equaion) but Zihark's chapter's are more difficult; who is better? Feel free to explain your answer. I do have opinions on what each answer means about how you'd rank a character, but the point is to show what the board thinks.

The Nephenee worst character in Part 2 only thing shouldn't be discussed here, as far as I'm concerned. It has no bearing on the actual tier list. Discuss somewhere else. Like the topic it started in.

Yet the reason the Zihark being important to the DB raises his position on the tier list so high is because of enemies. <_< Hypothetical time. (I'm only using a hypothetical to get at the underlying reason a character is ranked, so no one complain about it.) I'm looking at what effect chapter difficulty plays in how we rank the characters. If Zihark and Mia were identical in every way possible and their preformances relative to their teams were absolutely identical (and they had equal availability, so that isn't in the equaion) but Zihark's chapter's are more difficult; who is better? I'm not just calling out smash here, anyone can answer. I'll respond later about what I believe the responses show. I have work in a couple hours, so I apologize if I am not able to get to it for a while (due to people not responding soon enough). Edit: Int being the only one to reply to this by now is kind of disappointing. At the moment I'm just going to assume that everyone agrees with Int. I really doubt that's true. But hey, I'll give my opinion on the matter in the mourning even if no one else has bothered to respond. Or maybe I'll just make a topic/poll about it...

When is Marcia getting a serious AS advantage? She's lower level than Calill and pretty much as bad when she joins. The only thing she has going for her is an extra few chapters. 2-P sucks for EXP. 2-3 is Sieze, not Rout. Marcia is bad in 2-E, despite the fact she can use ledges. And doesn't really have a lot going for her is 3-9 as far as EXP gain is concerned. Sure, she has some small utility in 2-3 and 3-9 due to flying, but she still doesn't do well enough to get a ton of EXP.

I have always found Calill doubling auras in HM a funny proposition. She has 23-24 levels to gain before she can double auras and 10 chapters to get it (if you count each part of Endgame a seperate chapter).

Vika is recruited in 1-7 and forced in 1-8. The only time Vika is eating up a unit slot is in 1-E.

For the Zihark/Nolan A support discussion (or I guess, leading from the discussion), what is the upper limit you'd put on every chapter? You can't have no upper limit. That would turn a tier list into a who can most easily be favored list.

And despite whatever smash says, it is still an opinion topic. How "good" something is always relative to the one who uses it.

You give Calill too much credit. She never really has good offense, never has good durability (though better than most mages, eventually), basically requires paragon for extended periods, and still has trouble reaching a point where she'll be anything but a healer in Endgame.

Really, because, personally, I thought a lvl 16 cat followed by a a lvl 17 cat or any tiger had a pretty good shot at happening. In fact, there's a better chance that he'd get attacked by a combination that kills him than there is one that isn't. Note how instablicking on enemy phase is still a bad thing for someone who is 2HKO'd. First, -/5 Zihark (which is what the numbers were coming from) has 129 aviod w/ A Earth and resolve active. Also, by the very nature of resolve, Zihark has to take the first attack without resolve active. 141 - 105 = 36 displayed or 26.28 true. 141 - 129 = 12 displayed or 3 true. .2628 * .03 * 100 = .8% Geez, don't tell me I can't do math. Also, Zihark can never have 136 avoid with average stats. I don't know where you pulled that number from, but it's silly. The GMs want a resolve far more than they'd want a Robe. In fact, who in the GMs actually wants a Robe? Most of them get a small benefit at most (3 -> 4HKO most of the time). Someone please tell me I'm just reading this wrong. Because the way I'm reading it, smash is saying that I can Leo with a bowgun and beastfoe and sit him on the same spot he put Zihark and do the same thing, except needing more healing while instablicking instead of needing more attacks with less healing.

Resolve on Zihark doesn't ever get hit rates down to zero, nor is it guarenteed to even activate. If a lvl 15 or 16 cat is the first enemy to attack Zihark (roughly 1/3 of the enemies total), resolve will not activate. Also, if Zihark only has B earth, Zihark with resolve barely makes okayish ranges of durability. ~8% to die in 2 hits. ~15% in 3. Not exactly stellar numbers. Not only does he have a decent chance of dying in 2 hits. You'll probably want to heal him rather than face the third (and maybe even fourth) attack at that HP level. If Zihark has A earth, resolve gives Zihark about ~.8% chance to die in 2 hits. ~1.5% in 3 hits. Much better numbers. So if Zihark has A earth (which I don't have time to talk about again, as I have to go to work for a few hours) resolve helps him greatly. So let's get the part where resolve is highly sought after. I'll admit, not many (probably no one other than maybe Volug) members of the DB want resolve. Unfortuantely, resolve could have possibly been shipped over to the GM via Ilyana. Pretty much every GM in existance would like a resolve. And they could have had it for four chapters by 3-6. That resolve Zihark wants has plenty of competition for it.

I've had two people die on me in a playthrough. That was on a challenge though and I didn't care about the characters anyways. I'm not restarting for Sigrun and Astrid.

Unfortunately, to field Meg doesn't have anything to do with game mechanics. 1-6-1 and 1-6-2 are only one chapter in the game's opininion, meaning Nolan and Zihark only get support points for being in one chapter together in addition to extra points they can get from ending turns next to each other or shoving each other. Even if they got C-rank in 1-6, getting to B rank in 1-7 is unlikely. After 1-8 they'd finally get to B rank and then they only have 1-E to get to A. This makes it possible, but still difficult to do. Now tell me that they can do that in a tier playthrough without hindering there preformances. Zihark's avoid lead doesn't really matter if it isn't WTF godly. Dying in 2 hits ~50% of the time from almost any Tiger + Cat and even some Cat + Cat combinations is bad. Also, I think this is my first counted post. :P

Hello everybody. I'm usually on the GFAQs boards, though I'd come and read stuff here from time to time. Finally bothered to make an account here and start posting.