Salad Utensil

Eh I guess if he really felt that way, because to me it seemed more like everyone was against him so he had to submit to social pressure (and the topic name doesn't help). I don't really want to put words in his mouth either so...I won't press the issue more. Even if FE is a strategy game it doesn't help that there are many RPG elements and is forgiving enough to allow you to use any character you want (except like Wendy, Sophia, and Lyle). It's only inaccurate depending on the terms, but the TC probably just misrepresented Luna like you said. Umm...ok...

Wow the poor guy says Seth is mediocre and everyone suddenly has to turn against him even though it seems like he wasn't even properly represented in the first place. Even though I don't post much in this forum, the general consensus is that a character fulfilling conditions defined by making the game easier to play efficiently would therefore be considered better than characters that would not be able to those extents. People suggest that efficiency is the only way to determine which characters are better because turncounts are objectively measurable. But why does a videogame have to be so objectively played, when beating a game is only one out of many aspect the game offers? It is implied that it is uncouth to value a character with bad join time because they max stats and have flashing green numbers in the status menu. What was the counter argument for this again? Because it wastes time? When instead of posting in a forum about imaginary videogame characters I could be finishing my college apps or instead of wasting 12 hours beating a Fire Emblem I spend 10 hours...In other word it is the choice of the player to decide to spend more time on the game if it would make it more enjoyable. In economic terms this is for some people in the world, they derive more total utility for spending more time in a game compared to finishing it ASAP while others believe playing fire emblem is like doing homework where it must be finished ASAP in order to enjoy other things in life more, like playing more fire emblem or in this example switching from English to Linear Algebra. However, this mindset and this view that the game must be played objectively somewhat defeats the purpose of playing games for some people...doesn't it? Luna never did claim that he had this objective method that most people in this forum uses for determining what characters are better or not. In fact his posts bring up that using Seth isn't fun because some people find playing games more enjoyable without playing efficiently. The PEMN argument doesn't apply considering he plays fire emblem for fun and his idea of fun doesn't have to be beating the game as fast as possible. Since only his personal experience matters in his idea of fun Seth is thus mediocre. Even raw stat averages, joining conditions, and weapons levels don't matter when playing a game for enjoyment may be more satisfying for one to turn cute Lute into astute [broken 20/20 sage with maxed stats] Lute. If Seth got stat screwed and he has a character he put tons of effort into, guess which character is mediocre and which is broken. It is a fact because ingame is what you experience while people you don't know are telling you that your eyes and brain are lying to you. Also I find Seth's blank stare downward kind of creepy especially when it looks like he is looking inappropriately at other PCs

I'll attest to that, they DO indeed go into the storage.

Also 15 speed is rather borderline and he was being rather generous with levels so in the real game there is a fair chance to be screw a point or two in speed and risk death from bad positioning. Also it may be strategic to sometimes place a healer in line of fire if they can take a hit because the AI usually take priority to attack PCs that can't counter. At the very least it can be used to reduce the number of enemies your tanky characters will have to dodge to survive enemy phase. Well those are shorter chapters compared to later ones where the only staves you can access are mends and heals so it makes sense that leveling is slow in chapters that can be completely easily in less than 10 turns and requires the character to be next to the injured just for 11-12exp which might not be worth it on certain turns or the situation where no one is injured.

I don't see why you would not get the other two items when it doesn't take any effort beyond deploying Colm for that one chapter...technically you could also use the chest keys from 5X if you are willing to miss the killer lance and/or elixir, but you take up inventory space for useless items and Ephraim's units start far away from the chests without a door key anyway with weak weapons. While none of the items are technically necessary, they are really nice and it's idiotic to just ignore them. Also enemies in this game are not as weak as you think in HM where if the game is being 'Seth-skipped' almost no-one is able to 1rko due to being EXP deprived. A robe is always going to be nice, it allows vanessa or one of the mounts with more flexibility when facing large groups of enemies or allow your mages/Eirika to take an extra hit especially since avoid is rather unreliable in this game because weapon hit rates are rather high and you might get rng screwed.

You still need Colm for the chests in chapter 8 though...

I wonder how much controversy will be generated when Lute's ranking gets done :)

Yes I agree with you on that point, if she really wants to use Marty then that would probably be the best way to go. I would question how effective he is at capturing even with the hero axe since he needs it to hit twice and he is going to expect ~70% hit rates in an 1RN game, unless Dagda supported him (?), at the very least his con is high enough that he can capture anything whereas Othin and Halvan are borderline on most pirates, though Dagda would probably be the safest choice. An early promotion helps Marty out a lot as well since caps in this game are so low with enemy stats being lower, the reward is high and the penalty is pretty low so I agree with the above as well...

Swapping Hero Axe for Marty to get kills doesn't make him not bad. Even if Odo/Sety scrolls come early he still has to make up for the deficit of zeroes in both stats he starts with, if you are willing to go slower to get Marty more kills and scroll abuse him with some RNG manipulation he can be salvaged, but that doesn't really say much since that can apply for anyone. Raising his growths to 45% speed still requires on average 9 levels in order for him to just be able to double 0 speed enemies. However, I would admit that Marty is very useful for rescue chains early on since he has high con. Sara's main draw isn't that she has amazing skills and ridiculous growths in a game where all caps are at 20 except HP, it's her starting staff rank (B) which maxes out with a promotion in a game where 1)staves are ridiculously overpowered and multiple units with B or higher ranks by endgame make completion much easier 2)staves are the only weapons that get more than one WEXP per use making all staff users broken in this game unless you arrive at a bad joining situation with a low rank(Amalda) therefore making point (1) from above more potent... Tier list poster from above is misleading because he/she is underestimating how much easier the game becomes if they used staff users hence underestimating late-joiners with valuable utility: Sara who is practically necessary due to Kia and WAY overestimating late joining prepromotes who are compatible less useful because they are redundant regardless of how good they would be in almost any game in the series (Delmud, Almalda, Xavier, Glade, Ralph, and Fred) not that any of them are actually bad characters though, just in a game where you get units that joined like 16 chapters earlier with good offense because everyone and their mother consistantly can have 50%-100% critical on any enemy in the game/unique utilities. Misha and Conomore have really awful joining situations though...where they are completely outclassed and almost never worth a deployment slot, but most characters in his low and bottom tiers are spot on (except Sara) due to making the game much more difficult to complete than necessary...Trewd also joins somewhat late for a unit that only contributes combat at such a low level with only 1PCC which Dalshin has almost the same problem as Marty, but is more salvageable and makes chapter 4, 4x, and 5 easier if you are willing to go slower (Though Dalshien makes chapter 6 and 7 harder because he forces you to fight really tough reinforcements if you plan to keep him). Dagda is actually a pretty good character because he has good durability, movement, and con to help with rescuing and he is around more almost the entire game to boot.

Which characters are even confirmed to be children of FE7 characters? I know Roy is Eliwood's son, Lilina is Hector's daughter, and Fir is Bartre's and Karla's daughter, and Canas already had a son (Hugh) before FE7. Wolt is only speculated to be Rebecca's son, Sue is definitely related to Rath (though it could be a niece-uncle relationship if Rath had an unnamed brother), and there isn't solid proof that Lugh and Ray are even related to Nino. Though all the characters listed above with at least one unspecified parent could definitely use a boost to make them more usable (Lilina, Wolt, and Sue) or less mediocre (Ray, Roy, Lugh). I suppose Wendy and Bors can be somehow correlated to Oswin and Serra since they are all Ostians that serve Hector. Wendy, Bors, and Oswin are all armor knights and Serra and Wendy both have pink hair. Oswin and Serra even have a paired ending ingame. Though I don't think that this feature should really affect FE6 too much (I.e. have everyone be someone's kid) and would prefer to just view it as a bonus feature kind of thing otherwise if more characters were children of FE7 characters the game might get trivialized like FE4 generation 2, just without an interesting story to fall back on.

Roy's avoidance is probably better against axers since supports...in general...build significantly faster, Roy is always being used every chapter, and axes got a significant hit boast from FE6 to FE7. Though Lyn has significantly better offense...probably...since enemy AS tends to be much lower in FE7. Maybe this character ranking will actually get done...compared to the other one that was abandoned...

I think Lute should move under Artur for now since apparently warp ability at some point becomes > claimed slightly better combat Duessel to Mid tier(Eir) Saleh and Innes to Mid tier (Eph) Eirika to Mid Tier (Eph) Myrrh to bottom of Mid (not sure, possibly lower) Garcia apparently has good earlygame utility, but from the videos of low turned playthroughs, what he does isn't very unique since he basically acts as a moving light rune before enemies actually become good. Not sure what other people think. He should probably be at the top of lower mid until people care enough to challenge it. Thoughts, opinions, opposition? I can provide some form of analytical warrants for my vague suggestions if anyone wants to challenge my suggestion...

Not to distract from stuff, but in Eirika's Route, Duessel needs to rise. On Ephraim's Route Eirika, Innes, and Saleh need to rise. Lute and Myrrh needs to drop somewhat on both routes. Other people have already given reasons...anyone agree?

In theory a tank is good, but good offense is better since all the enemies there have 1-2 range so Brighton's wrath is rendered useless. Usually I have Leaf with the first life ring and speed ring counter with lightsword, tank as many enemies as he can and have Fergus behind him to rapier to death something on player phase. Brighton can handle the soldier reinforcements that carry short lances. Rifis can steal a thunder tome to take out one of the mages that risk critical killing someone every time they attack anyone, but Karin.

Eirika should move to mid tier at least in her brother's route. She boosts some of the best offense (aside from Joshua and Seth) for the 1st eight chapters due to actually being able to double and use rapier on horses and is later easily competent with her own horse and prf weapon for the rest of the game, plus she supports ephraim if he has any more spaces open due to fast rate and same move. She can also instantly promote with her own promotion item that she has no competition from. The only resource she takes from the team is a deployment slot. Anyone want to challenge this? Edit: also mid tier seems somewhat questionable for now since I can't see a tier difference between characters in upper mid and mid. I encourage that they should merge...for now.

Personally I didn't think those units are bad since I use them, but I may or may not be deluded about this. It's hard to reach a consensus over what people think are good or bad units so I just went by tier lists, and recalled most units on my list were pretty lowish on lists. I also use L'rachel sometimes because her supports with Ephraim are hilarious.

FE4: Well you are allowed to use everyone so... FE5: Delmud, Xavier, Amalda, Olwen FE6: Igrene, Ray, Fa, Zeiss, Sue FE7: Lyn, Rath, Nino (because her supports are endearing), Dart, Rebecca FE8: Lute , Neimi, Myrrh

It makes it seem like you think a tier list is perfect and an alternative view of characters in a semi-arbitrary game is heresy. Citing a tier list as your conclusive proof is like putting down an author's name without citing the actual argument and expecting some sort of conclusive proof to appear out of nowhere. A tier list doesn't debunk the analytical reasoning TLS put forth since a tier list is not a god that is infallible and thus capable of proving something as definitive fact. I think you should directly address why his reasoning fails before suggesting a change. These ratings are pretty good so far (well in my opinion), good job TLS =/

Are you just not planning on recruiting Mog or something? Don't like furries?

You make it sound like balance isn't a completely arbitrary goal, vague guidelines of 'like FE4' means 'exactly' like FE4, and a remake has to be sharply different from the original game. It is highly unlikely that beyond a fan-remake hack of FE7, someone will actually remake the games to be like FE4. Being that it is easier just to keep most of the things from the original game in a hack, if any form of a remake is made, it would probably won't be a complete abolishment of the support system of FE7.

He has bad availability, since you can't even use him until once the game is about halfway done.

Is that really the idea!? TC never specified that it had to be that open ended. Personally, I'd be satisfied with limited options that allowed you to influence FE6 a bit, but not completely change the entire support system. EX: Predestined: BartreXKarla: Improve Fir's stat growths to match the way it was done in FE4 and lock Wo Dao to her only (and Karel) and give her all of Karla's D ranked swords? PentXLouise: Improve Kleine and Clarine stat growths and allow Klein to inherit any A ranked bow and Clarine any D ranked staff CanasX(unnamed anima mage that might be Nino's aunt) Hugh's Mom probably had negative stat growth's or something due to how much worse his growth's are compared to his father. Canas can't pass anything down except items. Maybe a paired ending that can biologically produce children should be the flag for slightly changed children in FE6 or gen 2 Growths/starting items change if father is paired: Hector: Florina, Farina, Lyn-->Roy Eliwood: Fiora, Ninian, Lyn-->Lilina (perhap's hector's def and res contributions should be reversed) Rath: Lyn-->Sue Growths/starting items change if mother is paired: Rebecca: Sain, Lowen, Wil-->Wolt Nino: Erk, Jaffar-->Lugh and Ray If optional pairings are not done go with FE6 growths (because they married random mooks which contributed mostly negative growths)? Perhaps there could be prf weapon inheritance depending on the pairings done like Roy/Sue getting a Mani Katti in their starting inventory or maybe a special bow for Wolt if Rebecca was paired with Wil. Roy should inherit dance from Ninian Although, the game won't be remade, its probably possible to create a hack of FE7 due to different possible paths and let Hector's mode be FE7 and Eliwood's mode be FE6 as a continuation, if maps are redone and characters replaced? Though I'm not sure how flags could be triggered depending on how one played FE7 to influence generation 2?

This isn't quite true since Marcus can 1RKO the boss as well with either the armor-slayer or the silver lance (or even Roy with armor-slayer for a 2RKO), Marcus even has higher base skill for bosskilling. Also it's not like Fir is a bad unit in her own right since she comes at a good time, but she is noticeably worse in NM, being about on par to Oujay. I'd rather have either of them than Karel to be honest....

Oh well, I didn't expect to get all of them, but it was pretty fun. Thanks for making it.

Maybe he meant Thany and Ellen.