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I would hardly imagine it being "needed". Its supposed to be some trivial support increase, something like one combat's worth of hearts/points, and it can only be between the Avatar and another character, so it won't even help with any non-Avatar supports. The Avatar already has fast supports with Azura and the Servants anyways, and given how the points system works for supports I imagine that it would only rarely have an impact, and not a make-or-break impact at that.

Let's see…. the last post is only 5 days ago, so I guess I can post here myself without necro-posting… I don't have the game yet, but my plans are like this: +MAG/-LCK Dark Mage Male Avatar (intended ending class: Dark Knight): Mod's don't matter too much for no-grind, but I'll list them off anyways: -1 Str, +3 Magic, +0 Skl, +2 Spd, -3 Lck, +0 Def, +2 Res. Planned Avatar pairing: Male Avatar (Dark Knight) x Matoi (intended ending class: Falcon Warrior OR Dark Falcon [i've ordered the Special Edition]) Characters I'm planning to use are below. I know that by Ch. 27 there are up to 16 slots available, although some only open up later in the story…. I suppose children might fill the slots…. or I suppose "Kamuisexual" pre-promotes like Crimson could fill some slots 1. Avatar (x Matoi) - he's your lord 2. Matoi (x Avatar) - Cordelia 2.0, wife of choice for the Avatar…. 3. Ryoma - I want to run the four royal siblings, and Ryoma is powerful 4. Hinoka - I want to run the four royal siblings 5. Takumi - I want to run the four royal siblings 6. Sakura - I want to run the four royal siblings; I hear Sakura is a worse unit than her siblings, but I still kind of want to use her to complete the theme 7. Tsubaki - Necessary for unlocking Matoi 8. Kaze - Early Ninja, also I want to get an early A-support for certain reasons 9. Felicia - the first servant… I figure staff + hidden weapon + promoted unit that gains skills early but gains EXP like unpromoted shouldn't be ignored 10. Silas - the avatar's old friend and a Cavalier…. 11. Oboro - seems like a good unit 12. ????? (maybe Kanna, even though she's not that great, just for the Avatar's family?) 13. AZURA (forgot about her) 14. ????? 15. ????? 16. ????? A digression on which version of Matoi I should create to make the Avatar's wife… End of digression…. And, once that's considered, how should I pair up my remaining units? Whom do you think I should fill my empty slots with to get to my final 16 for Ch. 27/28? Other units to create more 1st gen pairings? Pre-promote Kamuisexuals (which ones)? Specific children created by these pairings? I'm guessing that Silas should probably pair-up with Hinoka, Kazahana/Hana (if I bring her onto the team) or Oboro. Looking at Hana/Oboro… would Hana be better because of the synergy with Silas's other class, Mercenary? (Cavalier + Samurai and Cavalier + Lance Fighter both work for Hana and Oboro respectively, but is perhaps Cavalier/Mercenary/Samurai better for Silas than Cavalier/Mercenary/Lance Fighter)? Hinoka would also be a fine option for fixing speed, but first I need to determine whether or not she's being used on Matoi (probably shouldn't, I guess)…. Hinoka and Oboro really depend on whether they're used on Matoi or not… both could work with Silas…. Oboro really could work with any of the physical guys, I suppose… Anyways, if I'm running these characters, I'm quite likely to be able to pick up some other children, like Sophie (from Silas)…. I don't really have a 2nd gen pairing for her setup right now, although Shinonome from Ryoma or Kisaragi from Takumi might be recruited…. she can A+ with Matoi, but Matoi's probably with the Avatar…. Got to go now… Any thoughts?

PEMN. Personal Experience Means Nothing. Rather, what we really mean by this is that its possible for the RNG to turn out on a particularly playthrough so that one unit ends up significantly better than they normally do, significantly worse than they normally do, or ends up growing their stats in a highly atypical manner such that they're good at different stats than they are supposed to be, such on that they take on a non-standard role for that character. So that you had a "totally worthless" 20/20 Kellam isn't terribly meaningful on its own , as your Kellam could have been RNG-screwed or could have had weird stat growths compared to a regular Kellam. What would be meaningful would be if we analyzed Kellam's stats and bases and concluded that he was likely to end up being terrible for a large fraction of the people who tried using him, or alternately he was likely to end up great for a large fraction of the people who tried using him, or as yet another possibility perhaps he tends to common end up mediocre. Perhaps your result was an outlier and an uncommon result, or perhaps its a typical result. You need to look at the numbers in some way to make that judgment.

(Preface: Anyone who has imported the Japanese game and has recruited 2nd gens could help by checking the attack stances of the children in their copy of the game and posting the relevant information of what these bonuses end up being…. even better if its the attack stance with their S-rank partner, but any ranks would help). Just wondering…. Its been long since established that 2nd Gen Guard Stance personal pair-up bonuses are calculated by: Father's C-bonus as their C-bonus Mother's incremental B-bonus [the additional beyond C-rank] as their incremental B-bonus Father's incremental A-bonus as their incremental A-bonus Mother's incremental S-bonus as their incremental S-bonus For example: Luna!Matoi, gets +1 Def for C, then an extra +1 Def for B, then an extra +1 Def for A, and +1 Str and +1 Spd for S, taking the bonuses from Tsubaki's C & A and from Luna's B & S. But I haven't really seen anyone talk about 2nd Gen attack stance bonuses…. the hit/avoid/crit/critical evade is no longer a universal for everyone where everyone gave the same bonuses, but now rather a case where what the bonus is and how much varies from character to character… How are these set for the second gens? Is it perhaps by the same mechanism as the pair-up bonuses? We can easily check this with anyone who has second generation units and having them go into an attack stance (the higher support rank the better so we can see how the end results turn out). For an example: http://serenesforest.net/fire-emblem-fates/hoshidan-characters/supports/support-bonus/ Tsubaki/Subaki's bonus is C rank: +10 Hit, +5 Crit Evade B rank: +an additional 5 hit A rank: +an additional 5 crit evade S rank: +an additional 5 hit & an additional 5 crit evade FINAL TOTAL: +20 Hit and +15 crit evade at S-rank. But what does Matoi inherit? If my conjecture of how it works has any merit (and it might not), she should inherit Tsubaki's C-rank and incremental A-rank bonuses, so: C rank: +10 Hit, +5 crit evade B rank: +additional bonus depending on mother A rank: +an additional 5 crit evade S rank: +an additional bonus depending on the mother FINAL TOTAL: +10 Hit, +10 Crit evade, plus additional bonuses from mother's B and S incremental bonuses Of course, for testing this, we don't need to use Matoi; I'm just making an example. Continuing the example: What if we go Oboro!Matoi or Hinoka!Matoi (they have the same bonuses) Oboro gives +3 crit more at B-rank and +3 crit and +5 hit at S-rank. So does Hinoka. Would Hinoka!Matoi/Oboro!Matoi have this as their final total at S-rank: +15 hit, +6 crit, +10 critical evade Actually, here are my predictions for all of Matoi's mothers: Felicia!Matoi: +10 Hit, +5 Avoid, +20 Crit Evade Azura!Matoi: +10 Hit, +5 Avoid, +20 Crit Evade Mozume!Matoi: +20 Hit, +15 Crit Evade Kagerou!Matoi: +10 Hit, +3 Crit, +20 Crit Evade Hinoka!Matoi: +15 hit, +6 crit, +10 critical evade Setsuna!Matoi: +10 Hit, 10 Avoid, +3 Crit, +10 Crit Evade Oboro!Matoi: +15 hit, +6 crit, +10 critical evade Sakura!Matoi: +15 Hit, +20 Crit Evade Hana!Matoi: +20 Hit, +5 Avoid, +10 Crit Evade Orochi!Matoi: +20 Hit, +5 Avoid, +10 Crit Evade Rinkah!Matoi: +10 Hit, +3 Crit, +20 Crit Evade Luna!Matoi: +15 hit, +6 crit, +10 critical evade Nyx!Matoi: +10 Hit, +10 Avoid, +3 Crit, +10 Crit evade Do my predictions work, or is it by some different mechanism this time around? Or, if not a Matoi, if you tested another arbitrary child, would it conform to the pattern that I predict? Thanks.

Skinship…. you just move your stylus around on the screen over their face to fill up a heart gauge. There are certain patterns that fill it up more regularly. The character also talks a bit while your doing it. Example of what skinship looks like (Matoi being skin shipped): After you finish, they also say a few vocalized lines. The lines that they say change depending on whether you're married to them or not. If you're married to them, they might also invite your Avatar to kiss them after the fact (you don't actually see the two kissing). As for what you get, I believe you just get one combat's worth of "hearts" added towards their next support rank with the Avatar. Maybe I'm mistaken, but that's what I thought I heard. What you miss out on is just some vocalized lines during the skin shipping itself and the post-skinship lines, including the married couple lines.

I don't understand what they are talking about with regard to face-rubbing… that's not true that face-rubbing is required…. There are characters who are recruited based on having certain buildings (the turrets, the bathhouse) build and upgraded, but you don't actually need to USE said buildings, just have created them.

I haven't played yet, but I'd suspect this is true for weapon rank reasons (Tsubaki can pull it off without needing an Arms Scroll to get going in a timeline manner, as lances/naginatas are his natural weapon type). Shephen seems to think that it works well. Anyways, Tsubaki actually according to the data tables has a 20% magic growth personally, although you are correct that he doesn't start with any magic… once a Falcon Warrior, he'll have a 30% magic growth, as well as +4 magic just from promotion, which would be half of Falcon Sakura's 60% (50%+10%). Of course, if you're actively using Tsubaki in your party, that means you can probably get Matoi, his child. She only has a 15% personal growth as opposed to Tsubaki's 20% growth, but unlike him she has base default magic (3, to Tsubaki's 0). This is actually worth 10 levels of Tsubaki leveling magic as a Falcon, or 15 levels of Tsubaki as a Pegasus, on average, and Matoi will still have magic growth herself, so this gives her someone of an edge on magic. Also, her magic growth rate is adjustable from the mother… assuming that its total growth = [mother's personal growth+ child's default personal growth]/2 + class growth (not yet confirmed to my knowledge, but maybe someone knows differently), Matoi could range from anywhere between 7.5% [no-magic-growth mother like Kagerou] to 40% [Orochi as mother] magic growth as a Pegasus Warrior, and +10% more, or in other words 17.5% to 50% as a Falcon Warrior. If we consider Oboro, whom is considered one of the more synergistic mother for Matoi/wives for Tsubaki, Oboro has a 20% growth, so 17.5% personal for Matoi and 27.5% as a Falcon…. Hinoka and Rinkah would maintain her default 15%, as they also have 15%. Anyways, she also has Prodigy, so vs. physical units if her STR doesn't exceed the enemy she should expect to get +4 damage…. strong endgame enemies like Generals, Great Knights, and Berskerers, who have more STR than she'll ever have as a Falcon Knight in most cases due to caps, will end up triggering Prodigy automatically, whereas medium STR units like Heroes would be borderline while she's probably not triggering it against low STR units like Bow Knights (but they have higher RES anyways). Although it depends on the mother she has… Anyways, my point is that if you're using Tsubaki for this role then his child Matoi could quite likely end up as a superior replacement for him… I think. Maybe I'm wrong.

Thanks for the suggestion…. As for not using the Spirit Dusts, let's see… I'm considering +MAG/-LCK I'm not entirely sure what the reasonable ending level is, but my projections are an average 28.15 magic at a 20/15 Dark Blood class changed after promoting to White Blood, with an average +0.1 extra magic for each level earlier than you class changed if you did it as an unpromoted dark mage (thus, 29.15 magic if you change at 10/0 to Dark Mage. Bunch of calculations… The point is conceded…. Snake God, Dragon/Rabbit God, and Tiger God would indeed give me that which I need.. By the way…. if I'm explicitly planing to use Matoi and marry her off to my +MAG Dark Knight Avatar, would it be better to give HER the Spirit Dusts instead of Hinoka? She'd have Prodigy to help her out, plus frequent benefit of Mysterious Appeal and either a.) 4 MAG pair-up from the Avatar in Guard stance or b.) +2 magic damage from Devilish Wind for an Avatar in attack stance with her (plus he'd follow with his own spell). EDIT: Just realized I totally forgot to account for Devilish Wind in the above calculations in the spoilered box…. +2 damage per hit, then. I also didn't account for effective damage on Dragon God vs. Wyverns… Its so strong of an effective bonus that it would still 1RKO them even after getting MAG halved, wouldn't it? It would just move from 1KRO to 1RKO….

Birthright spoiler: . As such, regardless of blood-relation or no blood relation, you still have every reason to fight against him, and its verging on insanity to put yourself back under his control by going back to Nohr and submitting yourself to his commands. The largest faction against Nohr is Hoshido, from what we can tell, so fighting against Garon likely means fighting with Hoshido. Simple. If the Nohrian siblings to refuse to join you in fighting against Garon when he clearly tried to murder their beloved sibling, then they're clearly taking Garon's side, at least implicitly or through inaction.

I suppose that it depends a lot on how closely he obeys the RNG and whom you want him to be doubling, as well as the assumed endgame level. If you work with 20/15 (average: 23 speed), then he isn't getting doubled by enemies, and he actually doubles slower armored units, but he isn't doubling Heroes or the like. He needs +4 SPD to match their 27 SPD [assuming Hoshido/Hard stats], and then Swallow Strike covers the rest… So, yeah, actually with just a +2 speed support (like default Bowman or Holy Lancer {such as Oboro}, even if they have no support ranks with him) and a Speed tonic he can do it, just like he can also do it with a +4 or better speed support (Samurai, Ninja, Spellcaster, Falcon Knight Hinoka, etc.) without a Speed Tonic. On average: actual results may vary.

Tooru, yes, I'm aware of Horse God, and that sounds like a very useful spell throughout much of the game…. but it doesn't exactly help against the final boss when you want to be using Yato against him to only face a 75% damage reduction instead of a 50% damage reduction; that and Horse God will have a far lesser might than Yato will…. the point of Speedwings would to be to help push Corrin into the regime of doubling the boss… CocoaGalaxy: I'd imagine that I'd probably won't want to spend 10,00 a pop on stat boosters (unless I truly have lots of money left over), but I'd be happy to use ones that I find during the game….. Tsbauki (whom I'm going to field for Matoi) might possibly want the stat boosters, but I suppose I can just let him fall back to a support role if necessary and let his slot on the team be replaced or make him a dedicated pair-up for his wife. He's one of the ones who perhaps if being fielded might have wanted a speed wing, but I guess that investing in the Avatar is a better decision…

From my own imaginings of what class I might like to be in Fates (and also so that I can bring Dark Mage over Hoshido), I'm planning to run a Dark Knight in Birthright. Probably +MAG so that I can use magic well, but still have a sword option for Yato. I'm probably going to play on Hard/Classic, no-grind. Now, one of the catches about this whole thing is that Dark Knights are fairly slow, and the +MAG stat augments it but still leaves it a bit of a slowpoke. 25 Spd at 20/15, for example, on average of course. [Above, I attach a chart of a +MAG/-LCK Kamui's average stats in Nohr Prince --> Dark Knight; the timing of the reclass can vary, changing averages slightly, but the broad outlines of how the stats will behave won't change too much; of course, everything is subject to RNG ] Now, of course, there are stat boosters that I could use, but here's the question: are there any other key characters on Hoshido who would be suffering too badly if I gave Kamui/Corrin the Speedwings (which if the information that I've been told is correct should be in Ch. 9 and Ch. 15. Two speed wings would put my average value up to 29 Spd [the cap for the class under +MAG], which combined with the Yato bonuses (before endgame) is 29+2=31 speed, or 32 speed when yato is equipped, 29+2+3 speed when paired with a Pegasus, or 34 Spd, which is 35 Spd when equipped. Post upgrade, these values all increase by 2, or 33 Spd unpaired without equip, 34 SPD with equip, and 37 Spd with equip and Pegasus. All averages, of course, so I may fall above or below the estimated values…. Would my team suffer too much from giving such favoritism to Kamui? I was planning on running Tsubaki mainly to get Matoi (to then pair with Kamui), so this might jeopardize Tsubaki's speed, I guess, but I could just phase him out into a support unit if needed, right? Or are there more readily accessible speed wings? I know there's an extra one in the shop, but would I realistically have the 10,000 Gold lying around to get the this third one? (Actually, how much total money does Hoshido give you in no grind?) I'm also wondering if anyone else needs Spirit Dusts more. Stacking on two Spirit Dusts would get an average magic like 32 or so…. The chart above just shows class change after promotion, but I could go to Dark mage before promotion to build tome rank… the stats will slightly change, but SPD will be the same….. Any suggestions? How many boosters can I afford to give to Kamui without taking away too many crucial resources from the rest of the team?

Well, you see, I know that the Ch. 28 Final boss has 32 SPD, so I actually need 37 SPD to be able to double attack him, or 38 if being sung for a second round of attacks, as it has Draconic curse and so I'd get penalized -4 STR/MAG/SKL/SPD/LCK/DEF/RES after the first round and then gain +3 SKL/SPD/LCK from Special Song. Revelation's final boss is 36 SPD and doesn't have Draconic curse. So lets see….

Shephen has said that Matoi and Sophie are pretty great….

The funny thing about Tusbaki is that so many people (including a lot of people on GameFAQs, which I frequent [it was my first video game web forum that I started using]) think he's horrible, even though given his flying utility, initial high player phase speed with Swallow Strike, Shocksticking, etc. he seems really good. How would you best organize a set of arguments to show people that despite his stats (like growths) making people think he's terrible that he's actually surprisingly good?

My apologies, Shephen… I hadn't made the connection that it wasn't meant to be shared yet, although I should have made the connection… I guess I was being a bit slow and stupid to not think that one through…. would you like me to delete the link? EDIT: I've deleted the link. I won't post links to your personal subreddit again.

Oh, I just noticed a day or two ago you had your own sub-reddit and I was interested in what you had to say… it was a pretty good read….. I really liked it.

Shephen, do you think this newer discussion (its not so much of a tier list but an analysis) [i believe its yours, correct me if I'm wrong] that you wrote is up to date, or do you have additional refinements; EDIT: I've deleted the link as apparently Shephen isn't done with it yet.

I assume you're advising +SPD from a postgame Kanna perspective? What of an in-game perspective? SPD is a good stat and all, but between Yato's +1 when equipped katana bonus, its +2 (later +4) legendary weapon effect for just having it in your inventory, Swallow Strike (because if you go Cavalier you have had time to build up a lance rank for a while and to then switch to Pegasus to pick it up without being at E-rank, and any rank you gain carries back over to the Cavalier line), and a Pegasus (or Samurai or Lance Fighter) speed bonus. Just Yato equip + Yato inventory + Swallow Strike + default Pegasus class bonus is already worth +13 speed. One more for +14 if you have Defender. Do you really need that much SPD? Would you want STR more?

I see… thanks for the input….

Swords like Yato only would have +5 hit rate bonuses, and that's only as a Samurai, if you actually got S…. Special Song…. yes, that makes sense for a second attack of the round, although it does nothing for your first attack… still, +6 hit on your second attack… on Birthright, most of that to offsetting Draconic curse unless you've stacked that on before engaging in combat (like taking a move before fighting the boss, then getting sung for)…. Rally Luck…. yes, that could be an easy +4 hit…. Skill asset: that accounts for +3 Skill initially and up to 38 levels at 25% growth, or 12.5 skill, which works out to about +18.75 hit…. so yes, I suppose that if you had your SKL asset and and a high skill class and an S-rank class, like Samurai, it would be totally possible to pull that off…..

Did you take Holy Lancer, Spellcaster, or marry someone with it? Or did you buy skills [which is basically gaming the system and a form of skill-grinding, which would go against the spirit of a no-grind run]?

Regardless of my personal preferences, what would arguably be the best Avatar secondary class to choose for some combination of his benefit, his wife's benefit, and Kanna's benefit if he's marrying Oboro!Matoi or Hinoka!Matoi. Likewise, asset/flaw? Mods don't matter that much in the main game, so I assume there growth rates will be more dominant. For postgame, just for those wondering what these potential wives have for stat mods: Oboro!Matoi: +1 Str, +0 Mag, +4 Skill, +0 Spd, -1 Lck, +5 Def, -1 Res. Hinoka!Matoi: +1 Str, +0 Mag, +2 Skill, +0 Spd, +0 Lck, +3 Def, +2 Res Both have class sets of Pegasus Warrior, Samurai, and Lance Fighter. Would Cavalier be the best pick here? +STR/-LCK. Matoi could clearly make use of the class…. Or is something else? My personal aesthetic preference, would be something closer to Dark Mage, +MAG/-LCK, but I don't think its really the best for this pairing… Matoi doesn't seem to really want Dark Mage, although perhaps Dark Knight + Falcon pair-up would be good for Shocksticking…… But, on the other hand, Cavalier Avatar with Matoi does have a certain advantage over Dark Knight Avatar….. it develops a decent lance rank, so maybe they could dip into Pegasus for a level later in the game for Swallow Strike without E-rank weapon problems (as they already built a lance rank when they had swords + lances in Cavalier). But Bind does seem really nice for Dark Knight….. But +STR Great Knight (derived form Cavalier) would have a ton of fire power (albeit less accuracy) behind Yato that could cut through the final bosses fairly easily, and Yato + Swallow Strike + Pegasus Pair-up would be an effective +13 attack speed bonus. [Of course, you CAN pick up Swallow Strike even if you go Dark Knight, but you suffer E-rank hell during that level, whereas you've had advance time to prepare as a cavalier). Your thoughts?

BIRTHRIGHT Although it isn't magical like I was originally envisioning, I was thinking over some builds (and using the stat calculator from the link that was posted on /r/fireemblem earlier), +STR/-LCK Cavalier seems like it might address some of my concerns of class synergy with my intended wife for my Avatar and for utilizing Yato to take down the final boss quickly. My only concern is whether giving the Avatar two parallel seals and a marriage over the course of the game is too excessive. +STR/-LCK Avatar, Cavalier Secondary, marry Matoi Nohr Prince --> Parallel Seal to Cavalier --> Promote to Paladin ---> Marriage Seal to Pegasus ---> Parallel Seal to Great Knight The idea is to pick up the following set of skills: 1. Dragon Fang 2. Open Assault 3. Defender 4. Swallow Strike 5. Luna NOTE: ALL ESTIMATED STATS ARE AVERAGES Estimated end stats: 42 HP, 35 Str, 10 Mag, 27 Skill, 24 Speed, 16 Luck, 27 Def,12 Res Because of Defender and Omega Yato equipped, this goes to: 42 HP, 40 Str, 11 Mag, 28 Skill, 30 Spd, 17 Luck, 27 Def, 12 Res If I assume Falcon Warrior Oboro!Matoi as his pair-up, then I get +1 Skil, +3 Speed, +1 Luck, +3 Def, +3 Res, +1 Move. +STR/-LCK Great Knight w/Defender Kamui w/Omega Yato euqipped w/Falcon Warrior Oboro!Matoi: 42 HP, 40 Str, 11 Mag, 29 Skl, 33 Spd, 18 Luck, 30 Def, 15 Res Swallow Strike gives +5 attack speed on player phase, so 38 Attack Speed, enough to double the final boss of Hoshido, even when debuffed+danced for…. Yato has 16 Might, I've already accounted for Defender and the Yato STR bonus, and Open Assault will give +3 more damage… B-rank swords is worth +2 more…. this gets us easily up to 61 Attack. 63 attack is the amount need to deal 20 damage through Dragonskin vs. the highest DEF final boss in the game, so a tonic or Hinoka's bonus easily accounts for this…. Basically, its a build that has enough HP to survive a hit from the final boss, it can on average double the final boss without the use of tonics (instead exploiting Defender + Swallow Strike + Pegasus pair-up), and even if it does fall short we still have tonics as a fall-back patch-up option. +STR Great Knight ending class gives huge attack power, which combined with Open Assault, Defender, and the large Yato might lets him cut through DEF fairly easily; this isn't even yet considering that this build gets two proc skills, Dragon Fang and Luna. Hinoka + Tonic along pushes the average to 65, giving us more wiggle room in case of below average results. Going into Cavalier/Paladin is also important earlier on for building a lance rank on Kamui so that he can pick up Swallow Strike form Matoi for a few levels without losing a ranked weapon, as he'll have had tons of time to build up lance rank in Cavalier/Paladin beforehand. What do you think of the build idea?