Interceptor
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Posts posted by Interceptor
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You can't seriously think reclassing to general is a good idea for him?
Consider the source, here.
As for Pair-up, I've generally been assuming that a unit can take whatever support partner that would suit them the best, as long as the downsides are accounted for. Such as: if Sumia takes Chrom (for auto-S, or whatever), you'd need to adjust for the fact that nobody else can S-rank Chrom now, so Lucina is going to be weaker. Also, being the support partner of a unit that sees a lot of combat, probably is going to result in a hit on that unit's EXP, so combining two powerful units into a Pair is probably going to have a negative impact on your army's strength.
The best candidates for Support units are probably going to be people that aren't all that great on their own.
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Looks like it's Track 18; shows up that way in two different ones that I've seen.
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More reliable statistical completion. As a silly example, imagine Unit A has a 60% chance to defeat a boss in one turn, while Unit B has a 90% chance to defeat a boss in three turns. So long as those three turns fit into the parameters, Unit B will be considered a better unit for that map.
Then what's the tiebreaker if two units have basically identical statistical chances of completion? This seems like a situation that will be pretty common with generous turncount limitations.
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What does "easier to complete" mean in practical terms?
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What's your plan for differentiating units from each other once you establish the baseline turncounts?
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I feel that Fred is definitely over-rated here, but it's not really possible to nail down by how much until we have an idea of how he does against the first challenge to his prowess (AKA, promoted enemies) as compared to other people.
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Turns chapter-by-chapter, or bank of turns for the entire game?
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What is "fast play" and what is a "real difference." You're just using words.
Oh goodness gracious, not "words"; what will the neighbors think?
Understand that we care about turn counts because going fast exposes the differences between units. When you are slow, and turtle your way across a map, nobody dies and even the most humble of characters can grow into their potential. But when you go quickly, things like concrete durability, chance to die, ability to ORKO, mobility, etc all begin to really matter. Training bad units has a measurable effect on how long it takes you to complete the game.
So, we go as fast as possible? Not really. Unfortunately, the logical conclusion of that line of thought, is that all fictional playthroughs other than the absolute best one, become invalid. There's nothing to discuss unless someone finds a new best way, and it's also rather boring in the process. Thus, we use this somewhat-modified version, which excludes the extreme case, while still preserving the imperative to go quickly. This does require one to have an ability to argue in a somewhat undefined space. But in most cases, conflict only happens in the margins, so it's generally not a problem.
Now, you have an issue with this. I understand where you are coming from, and your objection is perfectly legitimate. Unfortunately, your objection is also useless, because you have no solution to something that's already a non-problem for the majority of participants. Like someone who has to flip a light switch exactly 7 times, or can't have a digital volume on anything but an even number, you'll just have to learn to live in this crazy world.
Also please don't be wrong about rankings and then go ask me to make a separate topic explaining why you are wrong about rankings. I can do that just fine here.This is perfectly acceptable to me; you can feel free to howl alone at the moon until you're able to follow directions.
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Look at xxxx's post: if brisk pace is seven turns in a map instead of four, then Donnel's usefulness is much improved. Without a concrete standard, it's subjective.
The "subjectivity" is the arena upon which we battle: fast play exposes the real differences between units. I don't think you'd get any serious support from people on that interpretation of a "brisk pace". Any fictional playthrough with that sort of gap, is not going to get any traction in an argument. You are welcome to try, of course, but a team that drags like that will get smoked by almost anything.
That's a lot of big words and a lot of missing the point.Understood. I'll use single syllable words for you: YOU ARGUE SMART RANK HERE.
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As Paperblade points out, you're "getting by fine" with vague standards because you're interpreting those standards to suit your own views. This is more a case of delusion than successful swimming.
That's funny, because I see substantive discussions, the first of many test runs using the requirements, movement in the tiers based on arguments, etc. This isn't swimming, this is apparently delusion. Mass delusion, perhaps? What is the difference between mass delusion and mass agreement, in terms of results? You seem irritated that the tier list is accomplishing its goals, in spite of and in clear violation of your world view.
Hardly. Competing (not contradictory) requirements make the game genuinely challenging, and various difficulties place clear emphasis on specific requirements (funds in Normal, experience in Hard, with Tactics underlying both). And because there are concrete standards, units that help one rank but hurt another can be adequately analyzed: does a promoted Dart save as many turns as a non-Dart team with an extra 25K in cash to spend?Unfortunately when you have requirements that are contradictory, with a hundred places to tweak the results, and no clear way to adjudicate conflicts in style, success generally means denying the underlying problems to begin with. The advantage of a turn-based tier list, is that while people may differ on interpretation, everyone is moving in the same direction.
But this is off topic for this particular list. You should make a thread for it in FE General for me to ignore.
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This is very true. Awakening, in addition to being a very bad game, is also a game that is very difficult to argue about (even "subjective") given its wide range of options and lack of any kind of ranking system. I still don't understand why "grey area" is considered acceptable in a list like this. Concrete standards are a must.
I just have this mental picture of you standing in the middle of a salmon run, haughtily declaring that it's much too difficult to swim upriver, while fish are streaming right past you. Seems like we're able to get along just fine. Maybe it's you?
FWIW, ranking systems make tier lists awkward and silly, since they tend to value contradictory things when you play to meet all of the requirements (FE7 is a great example).
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Maybe debating Lunatic wouldn't be horrible [...]
My fear about Lunatic is that it would just be a subset of the Hard mode list, since borderline units here become garbage units there (like Donnel). At least in Hard mode, everyone can be a contributor.
If you don't like discussing the game, or reading/following guidelines... then don't participate. There's no need to urinate in everyone else's Cheerios.
I dunno too much about Nowi, but would it really be worth reclassing her?
That is basically my point. Manakete is her best class, period. Why would you reclass in the first place? There's no denying that giving her a standard class for skill acquisition will result in a drop in immediate effectiveness, because everything is inferior to her base. So the only argument that would fly, is if the positive of picking up those skills outweighs the negatives of the training time, for either her situation personally or the army's in general.
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My issue with that is that you are giving up right-now usefulness for skills that Nowi may not even want in the first place. As soon as she becomes a Rider, she gains bow/wind weakness, loses her 1-2 range, and gives up a big pile of DEF/RES from losing her stone and only using Rider bases.
Is that bad performance worth putting up with for skills? In terms of Tantivity and Quick Burn I would say no. She is a DEF/RES tank, not an avoid tank, and she doesn't have any HIT issues either. In terms of Deliverer or STR +2, maybe, but she actually has to get there in a reasonable amount of time first.
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Do we really need to call users out by name? Is it necessary to insult ****? grandjackal? Both seem like reasonable posters with their own posting styles, and even with strong disagreement, the sheer amount of ivory tower pretention pervading this topic makes me gag.
Grandjackal is a bro, I am not insulting him. He gets a little passionate and sometimes chases the rabbit down the hole a little bit too far, but he makes good points when he stays on the train tracks, and sometimes when he doesn't.
Back on-topic, I'm curious about this "Nowi is cheaper than Tharja" point. I believe dragonstones (even basic ones) are expensive and can be sold for cash, which needs to be considered.As pointed out, I think that the Stones are no worse than Nosferatu (and possibly better per kill in the case of Nowi, who has a lot of OHKO Adepts), but money is a factor, so ultimately this may be a drag on her placement much like Gregor.
In fairness, being seems to be Gregor's strong suit even though he's a capable combat unit. I've paired the dude up with Tharja and was happy with the results, even though they technically do very little for one another. I'd imagine he's a support that could work for just about anyone. Was also fun having a Noire with Lifetaker and Sol. The sustain is too stronk
I'd agree that Gregor is a good father to anyone who wants Sol, and this could also include Nah, but children is getting pretty far afield.
I used one on Donnel, and then another on Fred to make him a Griffon Rider. I don't think I've used any other ones yet, but I plan on making Nowi a Wyvern rider for the extra leveling speed and Tanvity, Chrom to become a Cavalier (he's been majorly RNG screwed this run), and maybe have Sumia become a Knight. I'm able to complete chapter 16, so I'll be able to buy second seals soon. IIRC you can get four before chapter 16: One from Renown awards, one from a village in chapter 8, 1 from a Bow Knight in chapter 12, and the last from a village in chapter 15.
Does Nowi really want Wyvern Rider? Her Manakete caps are good enough for Endgame, so you'd get the same leveling speed by just re-classing and giving up on Tantivity. I just wonder if it's worth putting up with E Axes for extra Avoid on someone who is a DEF/RES tank to begin with.
Maybe if you were good at the game you'd realize how bad Mercenary is for Donnel in no grind
Seems like you really put this argument to bed for now, pending someone proving otherwise with their own run.
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So since **** won't actually post any turncount numbers using Donnel, I decided to try and see how useful Donnel actually is, along with an attempt at looking at Tharja and Nowi, since the former has been brought up a lot and I honestly think Nowi might be able to go in A tier, but that remains to be seen. I will also mention some of my impressions on Fred, since he has also just been brought up and he's played an extremely useful roll in my run. I'm sorry that I don't have any stats atm to see if anyone has been blessed or screwed by the RNG. Then again, we aren't even sure about the growth rates on the website anyway so...
Thanks for sharing your experiences, Blademaster; this kind of data is hugely useful for the tiering process. I was going to do something similar for Nowi in HM, but I think it's superfluous now, so I may do a Hard run with another set of units.
Nowi does seem like a lock for A tier ultimately; she is already basically Nosferatanking without actually using Nosferatu, and with a better hard target (Generals rather than high-RES mages and clerics). Her final tier position seems like it will be related to Gregor's spot. Nowi effectively removes him from the army as a potential combatant, since he is far and away her best Pair Up partner, so that may be a negative if he happens to be a strong unit in his own right that's difficult to replace.
What did you do with your Second Seals? I notice that Nowi is almost level-capped as a Manakete.
God damn it why am I still doing this. [...] This is getting tiresome. Please, someone else pitch in on this matter. I can't handle it anymore.
You're a clever fox, RFoF, but fell for one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia", but only slightly less known is "never engage Grandjackal in a point-by-point rebuttal". He will never tire, no detail is too small to hype, and he has an endless supply of tangential arguments. Quote blocks will blacken out the sun before you even realize what is going on.
The case for Cordelia > Sumia is very straightforward:
- Cordelia is a better long-term combatant, due to superior stats. This is not really arguable.
- Sumia has inferior support options, since Cordelia trades Chrom for literally nine alternatives. Since SumiaxChrom gives us a weaker Lucina than Avatar's, and is no better than Sully's, having Chrom is not really an advantage. Some of Cordelia's options are pretty strong, and most importantly they are FLEXIBLE.
- Cordy's army get 70-80% of Sumia's early game in the Ch3+ game by simply using Sumia as a Pair Up and ferry bot, to be retired once Cordy gets going. This is the double-edged sword of Sumia being so useful as a Support unit: it allows us to not have to train her, and instead give the EXP to a better long-term unit, which is something that Cordelia actually benefits from.
- Sumia's reclass options are strictly inferior, for whatever this is worth (not much, but it is worth mentioning for tiebreakers).
- Cordy starts with C Lances, which is instant Killer access. She'll have Silver in a mere 25 combats. Considering her base STR, support options, forges, and tonics, this will not inhibit her offensive prowess. Never mind that base Sumia is 45 combats from B Lances, which involves taking a lot of combat from other people in order to reach prior to Cordelia (and Sumia needs it more).
Fin. We don't need to get into Henry shenanigans, here. It's possible to concede that Sumia has the better earlygame than Cordelia (existing, giving higher Pair Up bonuses while supports build) without that meaning that Sumia is a better overall unit.
- Cordelia is a better long-term combatant, due to superior stats. This is not really arguable.
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(Alright, I feel confident!)
Heh, I actually didn't expect Nowi to be so impressive, but with Gregor support she's pretty fantastic. I am definitely keeping her around for a long while.
sigh I hate reinforcements so much asdfghjklljshdbvlajsdbhv
no
I can do this
I can do this
You should be fine. The hardest part of Lunatic is already over, now you just need to build a team that can handle the scaling for the rest of the game. NowixGregor will last you all the way to the end. Tiki is a good option later if you need an extra body (with training, she is as good as Nowi). You can expect Frederick to fall off, but since you paired him with Panne, he's fine as just a combat partner for her. For your Cordelia support, it depends on where you want to go with her, you have a lot of solid choices (Kellam seems to be popular for his stat bonuses). Tharja/Libra is a great option to have in your pocket, because they have good pairing synergy stat-wise and open up Nosferatanking for heavy lifting.
Mother of god. I only had to reset once, but it actually worked. 8D; Oh my gosh, thank you! I never would have figured a strategy like this, I thought Frederick was supposed to do everything. I forgot My Unit levels quickly because of Veteran! I hope I can make it past Chapter 4 now... Man, thank you. 8D;
Glad to hear that it worked out for you; I just used something similar in another run, so it was still fresh in my mind. Once you get to Ch2, you should find that Fred/Avatar Pair-Up can pretty much handle anything. Make sure to take note of Redwall's advice for Ch3 up above, that will help you out as well.
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SDS did, although he later corrected it
The people in this thread are almost universally against Panne to Avatar tier, even the folks that don't normally agree with each other. If SDS does it anyway over the objections of everyone and their mother, he can be Shepherd to an abandoned tier list, since one of us will just make a more democratic one as a replacement.
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Looks like it's time for another comedy routine...
Only if people are foolish enough to engage with attention-seekers. Protip: ignore him until he learns to behave.
Well I know you of all people are hard to convince otherwise, because you do have some points, but if I may at least try to shine some light on some thoughts...
Italics tell me that RFoF is preparing a full-throated rebuttal already, but I'd just like to add a point that she may not be: Sumia is potentially on Cordelia's team as it is (temporarily).
Cordy gives us a RNG-proof Peg Knight, right when we need one. Her bases are solid, she's just in time for the desert, and her wide array of support options gives you a lot of strategic flexibility for inserting her into any army. No reason that Sumia can't be used as a stepping stool Pair-up and ferry bot for a few chapters where you can leverage it, and then she bows out and makes room for her replacement. Advantage here? You get all of the Peg, and most of the earlygame benefits, without any of the training. The EXP/kills can be put into a more useful lategame unit, like the Cavs, or Chrom.
You can, in fact, just leave her with Fred, her bonuses keeping his heart beating long enough to be useful until he ultimately rides off into the sunset.
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Well this topic was riding the angry train all last night, so...
Anyways, SDS brought up the placement of the pegasi, and I feel Cordelia should move down to...below Tharja, maybe even as low as below Libra. Reason being that her bases aren't really all that fantastic (namely her base speed isn't really all that great by the time she arrives). Sumia could be leagues better by her arrival, along with having an outstanding support in some form to be even better, who has also been contributing quite nicely to chapters before. Cordelia just being right next to her seems insulting.
She fits well in B tier anyways, as it's filled with units that are good but have a pretty big issue be it at their start or later on, similar to her. I feel Cordelia's overall issues are finding a good support that lets her get ahead, as otherwise she is just forever bland. Reason I could see her above or below Tharja is because in the least she can just cheap out and be a secondary utility in that she flies an asskicker to spots they couldn't get to normally, and the reason I could see her as low as Libra is because I don't feel Cordelia ever gets super strong in any relevant time.
But yeah, to the point, I don't see Cordelia deserving A tier.
Sumia has a couple of niggling issues, such that I like Cordelia better.
Cordelia has better S-rank support options. Sumia is in the somewhat-awkward Chrom/Fred/Gaius/Henry + Avatar bucket, whereas Cordelia trades Chrom from that list for nine other people, including such badasses as Lon'qu and Vaike. There is also no denying that Cordelia is a better combatant in the long-term; she is much stronger than Sumia when it comes to fighting things and killing them. Sumia also has basically worthless reclass options, while we're in the neighborhood, of Knight and Cleric (compared to Merc and Dark Mage). Cordelia shows up with C Lances and is basically Good to Go™ once she picks out her future husband.
So for me, it comes down to the value of availability, honestly.
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It's not that weird, because we don't have unshifted Laguz in this game, and the SPD threshold for doubling is +5 now. You'll see enemies with some capped stats in the higher difficulties.
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It's not necessary to win, and you could get Special Dance later, so I'd say it's not worth it.
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D: Oooh, I didn't think of that. I wonder why it didn't occur to me, it seems so obvious now. "OTL I paired My Unit with Chrom, I guess that was a bad idea too. 8D; If you could, that would be so neat, I could use a little help.
Alrighty. Keep in mind that you may need to reset for misses or weird placements. Sorry, Lunatic can be a bitch like that early. This should be serviceable:
- Run Chrom all the way to the right. His job is to distract the Myrmidon. Use Rapier if you don't trust his hit with Falchion.
- Have Fred kill the north Myrmidon from the left (OHKO).
- Move Avatar to where Chrom started, and then have Lissa Pair Up. This is not a troll.
- Enemy Phase: Fred should attract both Barbarians, and get them both extremely low. Chrom will dice it up with the Myrmidon. Mage will move in a random direction that may be annoying. Make sure nobody misses.
- Have Avatar/Lissa run up and Bronze Sword one of the Barbs, killing him. Make sure only the second Barb is in range for Enemy Phase.
- Move Chrom alll the way back as far left and down as he can go, and smoke a Vulnerary. Get Fred out of the way.
- Enemy Phase, Barb suicides on Avatar (now 90 EXP). Chrom dices up with Myrmidon again.
- Now you have a choice. Go full bravery man-mode and use Thunder to kill the Myrm, and then smoke Vulneraries (trade with Lissa) and kite the mage to death with Avatar (pair Fred/Chrom and run them away) for more EXP. Or, go for the safe route and just OHKO mage with Fred, and only kill the myrm.
- If you went man-mode, Avatar should be level 3 already. Take a million turns to separate everyone and heal them to full with Lissa.
- To deal with the top pack, leave Fred just in range of a Myrm. He'll suicide on Enemy Phase, and then Fred can kill the mage instantly on Player Phase.
- At this point it's just a matter of feeding Avatar as many of the three remaining kills as possible. If you pair with Chrom, set up walls, heal with Lissa, and make sure not to kill with Fred (give his lance away if you have to), it should be academic.
- Kill the boss. He can potentially ORKO Avatar with a crit, so be careful, maybe weaken him first.
There are more efficient and less chancy ways to play, but this will get Avatar as high as level five. Make sure to give the rest of your heals to Avatar, and then for Ch1 just send Avatar/Fred on top of the fort and murder everything to death.
And then see how hard that Chapter 2 isn't, because Avatar is god mode now, with Virion's Elixir.
I've just reached the boat chapter (13, I believe...) in Lunatic Mode. This is a first for me and I'm very glad that I've been able to get this far. Haven't tried the boat chapter yet, but I'd like to know if there's anything in particular that I should watch out for. (Like surprise reinforcements for example!)
My current team is:
Chrom (LVL 1; Great Lord)
Fem!Avatar (LVL 14; Grandmaster -- Paired with Chrom)
Lucina (LVL 10; Lord -- Daughter of Chrom and Avatar)
Panne (LVL -- ((I forgot what level she was.)); Wyvern Rider)
Frederick (LVL 2; Wyvern Lord)
Gregor (LVL ((I forgot his, too.)); Myrmidon)
Nowi (LVL 19; Manakete)
Tharja (LVL 1; Sorcerer)
Cordelia (LVL ((I need to re-check her level as well because I am not sure what her level is exactly.)); Mercenary)
Libra (LVL 14; War Monk)
I'd also like some pairing advice. I had Gregor / Nowi, Libra / Tharja, and Panne / Frederick in mind. Are these pairings good? If so, who should I pair Cordelia up with?
The game is about to get really annoying because of promoted enemies. Your team looks solid, I beat Lunatic with a similar loadout (although I skipped Tharja/Libra, didn't use Corde, and instead worked Morgan into my crew). Nowi was seriously dumb overpowered once she got going. I recommend keeping her.
Also, expect surprise reinforcements, because why not. The game especially like fliers. You'll have some in the boat chapter coming up.
- Run Chrom all the way to the right. His job is to distract the Myrmidon. Use Rapier if you don't trust his hit with Falchion.
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I cleared Hard mode without a fuss, yay level-grinding. I decided to give Lunatic Casual a shot (don't judge me), and DUDE GOD it's frustrating. I managed to scrap by prologue and chapter 1, but chapter 2 is giving me hell, Chrom and My Unit keep getting killed by something despite my best efforts, and Frederick keeps getting hit at 20%-30%, Anna what did I do to deserve this. Even with using everyone else as bait/scratching the enemy a little, I just can't clear it. I want to give up and go back to Normal/Casual. 8D; I only need to survive until Chapter 4, but it is so hard. What should I do in Chapter 2 to make sure Chrom and My Unit make it out alive?
You may need to back up the truck and be a little bit more focused in the first couple of chapters. One of the biggest mistakes that people can make is to employ Frederick too much. Don't do that. Emergency use only.
If you start with HP/LCK Asset/Flaw, and feed as many Paired-up (for Veteran) kills to Avatar as possible in the first couple of chapters, you set the table for the rest of the game. I like to get a couple levels for Avatar in Prologue, to facilitate Avatar/Fred Paired up on a fort shenanigans in Ch1. This can leave Chrom a bit behind, but in my opinion it's easier to train him later than it is to try to split up the EXP between multiple people. If you level up enough, this puts you in a position to handle Ch2 with your broken Avatar/Fred combo, since they can handle all of the enemies on your side of the bridge easily. Take the elixir from Virion if you need extra healing for it.
I can probably whip up a quick skeleton for Prologue if you need some assistance getting the ball rolling without too much luck needed.
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Nosferatanking seems very unspecific.
That's correct. It's a general style of play that you may employ for certain characters that can use it. It may or not be advantageous.
The point of a "brisk play" directive is to properly frame the value of turn counts. Things that generally allow us to play faster/safer are better, that's why we care about turns. But we're not specifically measuring turns, we're measuring the effect of trying to minimize them. That's actually a distinction with a difference.
Compare this to, say, Panne: level up to 10 -> reclass into Wyvern -> get forged lade or bronze axe -> finally have a good unit.This is not really a problem, since we're talking about resource distribution, here. Panne can do whatever she wants, as long as we are properly accounting for the opportunity cost.
Weird/Awkward/Wacky Moments for you in Awakening?
in Fire Emblem: Awakening
Posted
I'd find it funnier if he didn't have an undiagnosed Oedipus complex. Morgan creeps the hell out of me. Top three on the list of reasons to never make a female Avatar.