BBM

IIRC, there was a thread a couple of weeks ago talking about draft rules for the game, and Othin, I believe it was, said that drafting children with mothers would give whoever gets Serge a huge advantage, as you'd get both Serge and Jerome for Griffin Knights. And Jerome could have Rainbow Cry too, if MU's his father.

I went and found the thread and you were right.

I liked your original post more.

IIRC, not Gerik, because he didn't have Axes at base. I'm pretty sure he used only Zerk!Ross, Hero!Garcia, Duessel, and Dozla. Mono lancers doesn't actually seem that difficult, because you get more units than Axe-only and 1-2 range unlike Sword-only. Gilliam + Vanessa earlygame would be difficult, but only up to around Chapter 7.

I hit 3, and I maybe hit 7. I definitely didn't hit 1, 2, or 6. For 4, you keep saying I got mad when you started to disagree with me. No. As I proved, I started suspecting you before you said anything, even if the logic I gave then wasn't the best, and then I started suspecting you more not because you were trying to wrest control of the thread from me, because I don't think I had control of anything, but that you were trying to wrest it at all. To me, I already kind of thought you were suspicious, and then you come in here with guns blazing and yelling at everybody, and the first thing I thought was that you saw that the spyteam had been correctly picked and were trying to change people's minds about it. For 5, the fact that I've voted yes for most of the missions doesn't change that I've still had an opinion. And since Marth's name isn't one of the four up there, it can be further objectively derived that if I am Resistance, Marth is as well. What problem are you having with this? I think the decision of who the card is used on should be a team decision, not made solely by the person who has it. Or who the card should go to should have been talked about more, and when I said that it doesn't really matter who it goes to, someone should have refuted that point. What I'm giving is my justification for voting no if that mission is proposed. My point is simply to remind people that it might be good to settle on something in the first 3 proposals. And you actually do have another Strong Leader card, Rein gave it to Proto when he was made leader for Mission 3.1, and I gave Proto the No Confidence card I got when I was the leader in 1.1. I do agree with this.

They're retallying the PoR just to see what the scores would have been without bias points. They're not replacing the endgame scores, just resolving debates about which character should be ranked higher by taking bias points out.

I actually started an EirHM Swordies-only run. Eirika, Colm, Joshua, unpromoted!Gerik, Marisa, and Rennac. I got to Chapter 13 and never finished it for some reason... I think I made a really dumb mistake by accidentally selling the Ocean Seal after Chapter 9, mainly because that was the first time I'd ever used Colm in a combat capacity, and I'd forgotten he could even use it (I remember thinking it was basically Pirate only). And that made it way harder because my Eirika sucked, Colm sucked, Marisa sucked, and Joshua and Gerik couldn't survive against all those lance-using enemies by themselves. No Staffers either. I think someone else did an EphHM Axe-only run, and actually finished it, but he still allowed the usage of dual-weapon users (as long as they only used Axes, and could use Axes at base).

Just to add on to this, like Kay said, Mission 1 isn't really Day 1 RVS. That's Mission 2. Mission 1 is more like Night 0. Nothing really matters. So Mission 1 I voted yes because, like Kay said, I didn't think there was any chance of failure. Mission 2 was more like RVS for me- I thought Rein and Elieson were okay at that point. And then I didn't think Rein was okay, but I voted yes for the mission anyways, for aforementioned reasons.

The point that you're talking about, about it being a numbers thing. I read the thread and got an entirely different impression. In fact, I'm not even sure what you mean by "It was a numbers thing." If that's how it comes off as I'm sorry, but in my mind, when I see logic that doesn't make sense to me, that makes me both disagree with them and think that they are scummy, unless I have something else saying they're not. Whenever I've asked anybody to step into my shoes, it's been to look at things in a perfectly objective manner. For example that if I was resistance it is 100% impossible for Marth to be a spy. How am I supposed to know how you subjectively look at things? What you've been interpreting from what's been happening is most likely very different from what I've been interpreting. Even in traditional mafia, sometimes people who are town say it's better for a townie to be sacrificed if that's get more information. Look at schoolgirl mafia, where the town ordered a vig shot on the Oracle because that would possibly confirm somebody's alignment. Similarly, I was okay with Mission 3 failing if it confirmed a spy. What the hell, that's not what I am saying at all. I just said that I don't even find you as scummy as I did originally, BUT it doesn't matter, because I don't need to determine the exact scumteam to know at least one of them is on an Eclipse/Elieson/Kay mission. 1. I knew that. 2. Again, what the hell, that's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that keep in mind that Eclipse could be mafia, and if she is, we lose if we go into 4.4 and she still has both her cards. I didn't actually say you were mafia. >_>

Also, I AM going to sleep now. I'll reply to any replies in the morning/early afternoon EST.

What? Clearly, I'm missing something. Can you direct me to what exact post you're talking about? Like I said earlier, my point about saying "If I was Resistance" was not to convince other people, but to show my thought processes. And I admit that that wasn't the best logic- I give better logic later on, like how Proto voting no for 3.1 and yes for 3.2 makes sense if he didn't want a chance for a double sabotage, but then saw that the card was going to force Rein to co-operate anyways. And I also think you're acting suspicious. I don't have anything against discussion. No one was discussing anything though. I tried my hardest to provoke discussion- by introducing controversy you've done a better job at it than I have. But I don't think discussion would have been sparked by people summarily voting no. This, right now, is the most active the thread's been, because people who are actually bothering to post are disagreeing. Even earlier when Rein posted and there was some disagreement, he never posted more than a paragraph at a time. IMO, prolonging missions just so that one of the spies might make a slip simply piles on useless information and then makes it more difficult to get at the real stuff. Using the card doesn't need to simply guarantee the success of the mission. Originally, I thought that's what it should be used for. So, originally, I advocated using it on the most suspicious person. Then, I realized it can also be used to confirm a spy if you're sure that two people are Resistance, because the card basically forces a third person to act like Resistance for that mission. So the two people I was sure about were me and Proto. So I voted yes, and then AFTER THAT, stopped being sure that Proto was in fact a Resistance. And no, I have never been okay with everyone. I was the first person to say anything about Rein, IIRC. I have simply been okay with all the mission proposals, and saw no reason to vote no for a mission I believed would either succeed or give valuable information even if it failed. I even made a post telling Elieson that a mission leader can vote no. Just because you are the mission leader does not mean you have to vote yes, but it doesn't mean you can't either. BigBangMeteor, on 23 May 2012 - 08:38 AM, said: As for Marth, make up your mind about him. In your post addressing everyone but me, you said while his reasons for voting were trash, he was asking questions, which was good. Then in your last post, you say that Marth and I are the spyteam. That was heavyhanded of me. I apologize. See, I'm no longer even as sure that you and Rein are the spyteam. Elieson's looking pretty suspicious right now too. IMO, despite all you and him are saying about Elieson trying to form his own opinions, he's basically sheeping you at this point, so it could be Eclipse + Eli. And I haven't ruled out it being Elieson + Kay or Rein + Kay either. But the way you're playing this, atm, I don't even need to choose. At least one of you/Eli/Kay must be a spy, and so I will vote no for that mission even if I'm not 100% sure who it is, and I think I can say that Marth probably will too. So, Kay, you haven't posted for a while, and Rein's been even worse. What are your thoughts about all of this? Finally, guys, keep it in mind that Eclipse has both the No Confidence and Strong Leader cards with him. Seeing as we can't trust him to not be mafia, if we get to 4.4 and mafia!Eclipse still has both those cards with him, we lose the game.

I think the Gen 1 S supports jump straight to marriage so that there are no implications of children being "illegitimately" born. The Gen 2 S supports don't seem to do that.

Unfortunately, I need to stay up for another two hours. >_>

Well, if the posts I wrote at 2pm didn't make sense, I doubt the ones I write at 2am will, so I'll give my reply in the morning. I will say one thing, though. When I say things like "If I was Resistance" to make claims, I'm not saying you should believe that- obviously not. What I'm trying to do is show my thought process, because "If I was Resistance" is an assumption I can make.

Got ninja'd. Umm... everything I've said so far has been when I'm fully coherent. What is it that I've been saying that's doesn't make sense? Assuming I am resistance (which I know I am), Marth is cleared. So any 3-man mission without either of us is doomed to fail because it must include at least one spy. It makes it sound like Marth and I are buddying up, but there is no other way to make it sound like. Marth's logic hasn't been amazing, no. But despite that, I know he has to be resistance. On a different note, the next two days are going to be a bit hectic for me; I don't know how much I will be able to post. Sorry guys!

His point is that if both Rein and I were spies, as there is no code or communication, we would probably both have sabotaged Mission 2, because we wouldn't know what our partner was doing. As that did not happen, he's saying that one of us might be a spy (Rein) but definitely not both.

My mistake, I mixed up Resistance numbers. I thought this was 5. Well then, I did read Resistance 3, and IMO, the spies won that game because everyone trusted Proto throughout. Practically nobody even considered the idea that Proto was a spy, except for Proto himself. And because he included himself in his posts theorizing about the spy possibilities, it made everyone trust him even more. Also, my first post suspecting you was made before you said anything more than "Hey, I'll post later when it's not half an hour before midnight". I started suspecting you before you yelled at everyone for playing the game wrongly. Read again. As for how I changed my mind on who to use the card on, yes, initially I thought that using it on the scummiest person would be the smartest. Hence, my first post about it. Then I realized that it made more sense to use it on the second scummiest, hence my second post. For my third post, I was slightly suspicious of Kay at that point, so I thought, okay, whatever, if the mission fails with the card on Rein, we'll have Kay instead as a confirmed spy. Then, as I was rereading the thread afterwards, I realized that Proto wasn't actually all that townie, and that a fail didn't confirm Kay as the spy. I'm allowed to change my mind. >_> You say Rein forgot you could veto your own mission? Convenient, hmm? Not sure if he was in Resistance 1, but he was in 2 and 3, making this his third game at the very least. He just forgot? And you say his votes have the most justification behind them- He made some attempt at defending his 3.1 proposal. He didn't even post in the thread for 3.2 until he had to because of the card! As for Marth, make up your mind about him. In your post addressing everyone but me, you said while his reasons for voting were trash, he was asking questions, which was good. Then in your last post, you say that Marth and I are the spyteam. Finally, I just fundamentally disagree with voting no only for more voting trends. It doesn't matter if everyone auto-votes no or if only one person does it. Each person who does it is preventing others from learning about THEIR voting trends. It seems like a scummy strategy to me.

Yes, having more missions to look at does give more information. But only if people vote honestly. If everyone votes no just to get more voting information, nobody learns anything, and we end up just wasting mission proposals. Again, because Rein voted no for those first two missions for no other reason (and because he's barely said anything), we have even less info about him than about everyone else. And btw, I notice the resistance still lost in that game. I didn't read through Resistance 3, but I did read through Resistance 4, and Proto made the same point there as I'm making right now. He ended up being a spy, but that point was still valid. Anyways, let's see what you've got to say about me, Eclipse.

I have considered the possibility of an Elieson + Kay lineup, because neither of them have said much the whole game, and Elieson's voting no for the Marth misison and then waffling about and then switching to yes for the Kay misison seemed fishy. On the whole, however, I think Eclipse + Rein look fishier.

Eclipse, if everyone votes no to get more voting trends, we don't get any voting trends. Voting no simply to prolong the mission is dumb, because it doesn't tell us anything more than if we simply didn't prolong the mission. And Rein begins by saying that we need to get more voting trends, because we can't know who the mafia are, and and then turns about on Mission 3.1 and proposes a team of 4, votes yes, and says he thought that one would work, implying he's got the spyteam already picked out as Elieson + Kay. But then he votes yes for the next mission too, which would have required Elieson + Marth to be the scumteam to work, or Rein + Elieson/Marth. I'll explain my voting logic, so that other people have more of a clue what my thought processes were, but I don't trust you at all, Eclipse. To me, it seems like you're trying to strongarm this team into having you or Rein in it, and I think that'll be a mistake. 1.1: 2 man misison, it would have been dumb for anyone to sabotage here. 2.1: I was in it, and therefore if it failed, I would be able to narrow down 1/2 of the mafia. 3.1: Here, yes, I wanted some voting trends on both Kay and Marth, so I voted no because there hadn't been a proposal involving them yet. Maybe a bit hypocritical, but I still think it's different from just auto-voting no. 3.2: My gut at this point was telling me that Rein was a spy. I was somewhat sure at that point that Proto was not a spy, so I thought that if this failed with the card on Rein, Kay would probably be a spy. That's what happened, but then I went back and reread the thread, and realized that Proto wasn't actually all that trustworthy. My list at the moment, from most townie to least, goes: BBM Marth Elieson Kay Eclipse Rein My ideal team would be me, Marth, and Elieson, but I'll settle for Kay instead of me if I really have to, although I'm still a bit suspicious of him for not wanting to use the card on himself.

Ross normally prefers Pirate -> Berserker, actually. He gets some SPD earlier, has higher CON, and as for Swords, he doesn't really need them for most enemies, and the only things he won't be hitting (Heroes and SMs) he shouldn't be going near. Plus terrainwalk, for whatever that's worth, and quicker Garm access for his SPD woes. Figher -> Warrior is probably the worst for him, if you want that challenge.

Eclipse, give that card out to somebody. I want to see who you think should get it.

What was wrong with that post? I wanted to see how people would react to proposals involving you or Kay, because none has been made, and therefore I also asked to be out of it to allow more space for you or Kay to be in the proposal. I'm about 60% sure the scumteam is Rein + Proto/eclipse. I'll say no to a proposal with Eclipse in it. Another thing backing up my hunch is that Rein said he thought Proto was resistance. It doesn't mean much, because just about everyone thought that, but... blah. Rein said nothing about anyone except that. Another thing is that Proto voted No for the mission with Marth, but Yes for the same mission with Kay instead. If he was a resistance member, that makes sense only if he thought Kay was more trustworthy than Marth. If he was a spy, however, it could also be because he didn't want to do a mission with 2 spies on it. However, once it became clear that the card was being used on Rein, and that people trusted him, he voted yes. Gah, Proto made so few posts it's difficult to tell. And Rein... I don't even know what he's up to. I've seen him post a few times in SFMM2, so I know he's there and at least capable of making one-liners. >_>

Blah, the only staffer left is Renault... but I dunno if he can save many turns on Light alone... I think I'd rather have Harken.

Is this reminding anyone else of all the BK theories?