Geriba

For funsies, I went ahead and booted up a new HHM game. Unfortunately, I couldn't even begin to justify those levels I gave Eliwood. Surprisingly, this isn't because of a lack of defense/offense- I think I was generally right about those- but because I underestimated just how much Marcus is dominating the early game. Chapter 12, Eliwood gets literally nothing; Chapter 13, he's lucky to get a level; Chapter 13x, maybe a half-level. He can probably get a level or two over the next two chapters, but that puts him at about level 4, and I'm not sure that's going to be able to put him over the edge of Lyn. I think I'm still just too conditioned for ranked run debates, where Marcus isn't putting himself in the middle of combat every turn and you actually need to spread experience around. Because Eliwood isn't going to get babied kills the same way he would on an S-Rank run, the number of levels he can reasonably gain is seriously cut. I'm going to go ahead and concede here, then, because the rest of my case depended upon a negligible level gap between Lyn and Eliwood, not a full three or four levels. Someone else can take up the charge if they'd like, but I think it's a lost cause.

Did I do my math wrong? Let's see... 14 atk, 82-86 hit, 0-1 AS, 0 crit; 24-26 HP, 0-2 def, 0-2 res, 0-2 avo Remember also that at this point, Eliwood's straddling 8/9 AS and 13/14 TS. With zero defense, Eliwood does it regardless of HP value with 14 TS and usually kills with 13 TS; with one defense, Eliwood needs the 14 TS and minimum-value HP; and with two defense, he can't kill them. I see the problem I made, by the way: I looked at level 2 soldiers instead of level 3 soldiers, which are stuck with a zero defensive stat. Nice work keeping track of my math, Serenes! Still, he's certainly two-shotting every soldier, and one-rounds quite a few. This might put a small dent in his performance, but that remains to be seen. Pretty-looking numbers, but I'm not sure any of them matter. At the end of the day, neither of them can charge enemies recklessly, meaning they're forced to stay back with the group, and neither of them can one-round consistently (or at all, frankly), meaning that they're at best setting up kills. In fact, their defensive edge may actually help Eliwood, as it puts them in a better position for them to set up kills and him to clean up, since he "can't afford" the damage otherwise.

We can do a defensive analysis if you'd like, but step back and think about things conceptually. Eliwood needs to get 6 levels in 5 chapters in order to match Lyn's starting level from a run-of-the-mill LHM. One is a Route chapter, another a Survive chapter, and Eliwood will without question be gaining a good level to a level and a half each here. To be clear, Eliwood does ORKO the Chapter 14 soldiers, which is a huge help. That means he needs to gain three levels around four chapters. Certainly not too much of a hassle. And frankly, I think your commentary here is more than a little unfair. Eliwood certainly struggles during early HHM because everybody struggles. Fine, exclude Hector and Marcus for a moment (and Oswin, because lol 4 move on an efficiency run): Lowen, Rebecca, Dorcas, Bartre, and Matthew are all having the same problems. In each map, Marcus is going to be blitzing, leaving the scraps to the units mentioned above plus Hector, who alone won't be getting all the kills. Eliwood's in a pretty decent position to be picking up some good kills, and six levels over five chapters- two of which are begging to be abused for experience- isn't too much to ask for.

Eliwood/Lyn Round 1: Fight! Let's start this analysis on Chapter 12, skipping ahead of Lyn's Mode for now- though we will return, as there are a number of important questions which, when answered, will have effects that trickle down into Lyn's HHM performance. Eliwood's base stats: HP Pow Skl Spd Def Res Luc Con 18 5 5 7 5 0 7 7 ...and the stats of the rapier, a weapon which will prove essential to Eliwood's performance: Rng Wt Mt Hit Crt Uses 1 5 7 95 10 40 This puts Eliwood's base AS at 7 and his total strength at 12. Not too shabby. Of course, none of this means anything in isolation, so let's throw in some relevant enemy stats. Note that the main focus here is going to be on his offense, not his defense. The main issue with Eliwood is whether or not he can accrue enough kills to have his early-game match Lyn's, as well as determine his usefulness for those handful of chapters where Lyn's not around. Chapter 12 Eliwood starts at the bottom part of the map, so he'll be battling brigands and, perhaps, an archer. Against the brigands, he's not doubling while doing 9-10 damage out of around 23, a little less than half. Of course, who on the south is performing better? There's Jesus on Wheels, of course, but he'll be rushing Zagan and leaving the scraps up to the other units in the brigade. Dorcas and Bartre have embarrassing hit percentages against these guys; Bartre's better off maintaining distance while doing chip damage with the hand axe, while Dorcas isn't going to one-shot them. What Dorcas can do, however, is (assuming a meager two-level gain in LHM, making his strength stat 8) reliably get the brigands within the single digits, making them the perfect target for the Wood. Lowen would like the kills, too, but it's probably better to make full use of his movement and have him rush northward; Marcus has the east covered. In all, then, it's reasonable to assume that Eliwood's gaining a level and a quarter here, thanks in no small part to kills from chip damage. Eliwood @ Lv. 2.25 -> AS = 7; TS = 13. Chapter 13 As we can see, the last chapter boosted Eliwood's strength up a point, but left speed at a frustrating 7.4. One level down the road, however, Eliwood's AS climbs to 8, which opens up some possibilities for doubling. The steel-bow archer, for example, is reliably doubled and brought down to critical HP values (and killed with a critical, of course); all other archers are in danger of being doubled, depending on how the RNG rolls their AS. Something quite depressing is how Eliwood fairs against soldiers. I expected he'd be able to one-round them at this point, but no such luck: thanks to the weapon-triangle penalties, Eliwood gets 25 HP soldiers down to one HP. This isn't all bad, as it means he can both set up and clean up easy kills... but it's rather disappointing. Against the cavaliers here, however, is where we get to see the 2x rapier effect in action. That Eliwood doesn't one-round the cavaliers is hardly a problem, as no one on the team at this point except Hector (and with the obvious exception of Marcus) can hope to do the same. Yet he's doing an impressive 10-11 damage a pop, which I believe places him at third overall. Not terrible, especially considering this is where he's at his performance nadir. Don't get me wrong; this is no Lyn + Mani Katti output just yet- but it's getting there. Eliwood gaining another level and a quarter here is reasonable. Eliwood @ Lv. 3.5 -> AS = 8; TS = 13. Chapter 13x Eliwood's doubling the steel axe brigands for 19-21 out of around 25 HP. He also avoids being doubled by Puzon, making him a potential candidate for that tasty Boss Exp. This is one of the toughest chapters of the early-game: every struggles except Marcus, but he's off rushing towards the village, so everyone else needs to chip in as best they can. Experience here is pretty evenly split between units who can hold their own, which would be Hector, Eliwood, Guy, Lowen, and maybe Dorcas, so Eliwood's not gaining more than a single level here. Eliwood @ Lv. 4.5 -> AS = 8; TS = 13. Chapter 14 Once Eliwood bridges the gap between levels 4 and 5, his AS and TS both go up again. Very nice! Still not doubling the cavaliers, but he's putting a solid dent in them while managing to double most archers. More importantly still, he's now able to reliably one-round the numerous soldiers plaguing the map, as well as two-round the pirates and brigands. This is the first map where Eliwood can truly hold his own without being babied, yet it's worth mentioning that he's got some pretty solid competition now. Guy and Matthew can easily hold the beach from the pirates, and Hector/Marcus/Lowen can all charge through the middle with ease. Because of the difficulty of the chapter and- more importantly- the nature of a Route Map, however, Eliwood will still find plenty to do. In fact, a level and a half here should be easy enough to get, though to offset any claims that I'm "inflating" his levels, let's keep it at 1, just for argument's sake. Eliwood @ Lv. 5.5 -> AS = 9; TS = 14. Chapter 15 Experience heaven. The Wood reliably two-rounds all nomads, soliders, and axe-users. Even assuming a liberal spread of experience, he's definitely reaching 7 by this point. Eliwood @ Lv. 7 -> AS = 9; TS = 15. ...Which brings us to Chapter 16, where Lyn is recruited. Now we have to return to the issue of experience allocation in LHM. As dondon got at earlier, most experience will be spread out between the high-movement units for an efficiency run, leaving not as much to Lyn as we might think. She gets the Prologue baddies as well as some bosses, to be sure, but it's unlikely that she'll be coming out of LHM any higher than 8. I think 7 is probably more reasonable, but let's give her the extra edge and compare a Lv. 7 Eliwood with a Lv. 8 Lyn (and remember that Eliwood's stats include the C bonus with Hector): Eliwood HP: 23 Str: 8 Skill: 8 Speed: 9 Luck: 10 Def: 8 Res: 2 Lyn HP: 21 Str: 7 Skill: 11 Speed: 13 Luck: 8 Def: 3 Res: 2 Wood w/Rapier -> AS = 9; TS = 15; Def = 8; Avoid = 34 Lyn w/Mani Katti-> AS = 13; TS = 15; Def = 3; Avoid = 34 Even with a level lead and the Mani Katti, Eliwood still ties Lyn in TS and wrecks her defensively. The only clear lead Lyn has- and this will surely become the deciding factor in all of this- is the 4 AS lead. But how much can that ever-waning speed lead be worth, especially over a five-chapter lead-in? More to come, but I'm leaving this here for everyone to dissect and debate in the meantime. EDIT: And the more I think about it, the less I can accept a Lv. 8 Lyn, even while being generous. Simply not enough experience to go around in LHM, especially with Sainadin running amok. 7's about right for each. Just lower Lyn's TS down to 14 for the final tally.

We still can, but sweet Jesus, I'm pretty sure dondon just made Canas Erk's bitch. Impressively succinct analysis, sir.

Hey man, much appreciated! You're definitely right about how the importance of supports has waned over the years. Today, even C and B supports are pushing it; A-level supports are a complete rarity. And Yui, I've started prepping my analysis, but because I don't want to get too bogged down in the debate over the practicality of Florina/Lyn, I'll do two sets of stats- those with your estimated time for Florina/Lyn A, and those with my estimated time for the same- and see if it makes a difference. If it does, then we'll be in a really interesting situation; if not, then there was never a need to get caught in such a triviality. Sound fair? EDIT: Since I got called out last time on double-posting, let me just stuff this comment in here... Once we've resolved Eliwood/Lyn to a satisfactory degree, I'm gonna debate the hell out of this one. I see Erk as an absolute lock.

As I promised earlier, an in-depth statistical analysis is pending, but I want to take a moment and step back to look at the big picture. Everyone is jumping on the Lyn bandwagon for one simple reason: she can double. And with the Mani Katti, no less, guaranteeing her at least some damage to almost every enemy. Let me state at the outset that I wouldn't be so bold as to declare Eliwood superior to Lyn at the time she arrives- but that's not what ultimately matters. From chapters 12 to 16- 5 in all- Eliwood has absolutely no competition against Lyn. It's pure positive utility. From chapters 16 to 26- 13 in all- I'll be completely generous and say that Lyn has a noticeable advantage in ALL of these chapters. Clearly, this is utter nonsense. The closer both units approach the end-game, the more and more Eliwood bridges the offensive gap while maintaining his defensive edge. But even granting that, post-promotion Eliwood's getting a horse and a lance, while Lyn's getting... bows. From here on out (which is a total of 9 chapters, not including Battle Preparations and the Armads chapter), Eliwood has a noticeable lead himself. Specifics matter, of course, and I'll try to shed much more light on the matter later, but looking at the general framework here, that's 5 chapters of a pure lead and 9 of a comparative lead for Eliwood versus 13 of a comparative lead for Lyn. Should be very, very close. Those insisting that Lyn is somehow in a different league than Eliwood are kidding themselves.

Quick aside from the Lyn/Eliwood debate: wouldn't Canas need to be penalized for forcing the player to attend 17x and costing him a handful of unneeded turns?

There's something circular about this line of thinking. Eliwood is being criticized for his early-game being mediocre (and I expect we'll all agree that his mid-game and post-promotion performance is pretty exceptional), and the one thing that can really get him out of that situation- his rapier- is somehow off-limits because he'll "need it later." No, he won't need it later, if he's not even being used. I'll be the first to admit that without fairly liberal rapier use early on, he'll fall behind in levels and struggle to catch up; thankfully, that's not a choice he needs to make. In a nutshell, Eliwood should be using the rapier pretty much exclusively up until he reaches the double digits level-wise.

Surely you can admit that these scenarios, while not completely absent from gameplay, represent the vast minority of situations. The "nothing else to do that turn" argument especially strikes me as reaching. In a ranked run, maybe, but in an efficiency run? If you find that Lyn isn't doing much in a chapter (and Florina will always have something going on; that's what makes her such an exceptional utility unit), then field somebody else. Completely unfair comparison. You're really going to equate Becca's pathetic bow-lock, poor base stats, and Player Phase-only performance (which reflects about 30% of total gameplay) to Eliwood? Indeed, it's tricky business. Though I think Eliwood could easily each level 6 by that time as well. 1) As was previously argued, Lyn's got serious competition for that Energy Ring. Even if we're generous and give her a 33% chance of getting the ring, that averages out to a +.66 strength boost. If you want to factor that in, be my guest. 2) You can't penalize the rapier for being used... it comes earlier, after all! And the Mani Katti is certainly the better weapon, no question, but the difference is hardly that significant. 3) True. Haha, good point! Though the total number of enemies available to the right-hand group is low, and she'll be competing with Kent and Sain. You've got Florina, Kent, Sain, Lowen, Marcus, and Priscilla, so that's actually six (although the last one needs to be at the front of the group to recruit Raven in good time). I might give you this, but at most, that's going to be a handful of turns, because even if you sacrifice a bit of Florina's move for a few turns, you can't keep her at five the entire chapter. Further, there's the issue of deployment limitations to consider. While you have five other units to consider using for ferrying, you're likely not going to bring all of them. What if you're not using Lowen that playthrough, or want to use Marcus's slot for a lower-level unit? There are hardly any guarantees in this regard, and at best, I can see maybe a few turns. I meant the left, whoops. The left side is infinitely better-dealt with by Florina, Lucius, and Erk. Lyn will have trouble surviving those guys, whereas she can hold her own on the right against the melee units. Realistically, this is simply not going to happen. This will have to be settled with the pending enemy analysis.

It's 9 speed, actually (8.6 rounds up here). I suppose I'll do some enemy stat analysis later on, since that's been requested, but the bias in this post is baffling. "Elidurf"? And then you're not going to give him credit for using the rapier on the archer because you want to save it? I could make the same case against Lyn and her Mani Katti. Eliwood is the only unit who can employ the rapier, and since his early-game finds him at his weakest (and because funds don't matter here), you're damn right he'll be using it against the archer.

Even for a ranked run, the best supports are usually the fastest ones. The tactics rank is always breathing down your neck, so you can't afford to waste too many turns simply for a small statistical boost. The units should also perform similar functions and have identical movement, if possible. The two best are probably Hector/Eliwood and Kent/Sain.

Let's analyze that bolded part in-depth. You're claiming that the Florina/Lyn support is feasible because Florina could use Lyn's help with combat experience, right? In any given situation where a unit can be weakened by Lyn to the point of it being one-shot-able by Florina, you have to consider how the units will be placed relative to one another. Let's say that Lyn goes up to an enemy's left side, attacks, and gets it down to a few hit points. Florina has one of two options: she can either go adjacent to the enemy and strike a kill with the Slim lance, or she can fly adjacent to Lyn (which contributes to the support) and use a Javelin, which weighs her down and leaves her seriously vulnerable to other attacks. In almost every case, then, Florina is better off sacrificing the support points in order to avoid weighing herself down. There's also the issue of unit deployment slots to consider. With Hector/Eliwood, you only need to sacrifice one unit slot, while with Lyn/Florina, you need to sacrifice two. You can bash Eliwood's early game all you want, but there's one thing he undoubtedly has over Lyn in that regard: he's actually contributing during that time. At a bare minimum, he can help clean up kills or set up kills against cavaliers/knights for the five chapters Lyn's not around, which contributes to total team utility; by that point, his offensive and defensive games have seriously improved. Let's compare some stats: HP Str Skill Speed Def Res Luck Eliwood (Lv. 5) 21.2 ±0.8 6.8 ±1.0 7.0 ±1.0 8.6 ±1.0 6.2 ±0.9 1.4 ±1.0 8.8 ±1.0 Lyn (Lv. 7) 20.2 ±1.1 6.4 ±1.2 10.6 ±1.2 12.6 ±1.2 3.2 ±1.0 1.8 ±1.1 8.3 ±1.2 With the Hector C Support boosts, that's another 1 defense. By the end of the next few maps, the two will easily be at a B, which means +1 strength and +2 defense. At this point, Eliwood can double a good number of things, has much better defense, and still wields a Prf. weapon of his own. Lyn undoubtedly has better speed, but to make up that offensive gap, she needs the Florina support. Let's take a look at how likely this is in the following chapters (and I'm going to be kind and assume that both are deployed in every chapter): 16 -> Start on opposite sides of the map; Florina will be getting kills towards the bottom-left and then do ferrying responsibilities, while Lyn will be getting kills towards the bottom-right and then do some shopping. 17 -> Florina will want to stay back the first turn because of the risk of archers, so that'll be one turn together with Lyn; after that, however, she'll likely be helping to ferry Matthew around from the bottom-left to the top-left of the map. 17x -> Short chapter, dangerous enemies. Florina will want to rush up to the top-left village once an opening presents itself, while Lyn will be stuck either waiting at the beginning or else struggling to take on the tough pirates in the middle. 18 -> Lyn won't want to touch the shamans towards the right, which are Florina's specialty. There's an immediate divide between the two. 19 -> A big FoW map means that Florina will be busy ferrying people while trying to clean up kills, staying towards the middle so as to recruit Fiora without hassle. Probably a few turns together here as well. 19x -> Florina's going to want to take on the pegasus knights across the mountains, and once Kishuna shows up, she'd appreciate the experience gained from chipping away at the snipers. 19xx -> lol no one goes here 20 -> Completely different roles. This is a huge chapter with a lot going on, and a good player will be utilizing Florina's 7-move to its full effect. And the list goes on. All the while, Eliwood and Hector, with their near-identical team roles and same movement, are going to be reaching a B with ease and rounding towards an A. I'll grant the Florina/Lyn C- though even that can't be taken for granted- but the B support seems entirely unlikely for a good while. If you really want to bridge the offensive gap between Eliwood and Lyn through the Florina support, you have to clip the wings off of your only flier and force her to travel at a sluggish pace; that's certainly a bad trade.

You've got to admit, though, that the game does a damn fine job of making sure the player doesn't abuse the system. When it says "no more than 3 deaths in a runthrough," it means it!

That the Florina support is technically faster means little when Eliwood and Hector have a good five chapters together more. They also have the same movement and the same team role (kill things), whereas Florina is a flier who will be ferrying people around in between offensive bouts. Assuming you get to Florina/Lyn C (or B, but that's pushing it), the support will hardly become viable anyway; even if the list isn't full-efficiency, having to cramp your flier close to a direct combat unit simply for minor support boosts is a definite problem. As far as Eliwood's early game being bad goes, I'd like to remind you that from Chapter 12 to Chapter 16, he's one of two units with a twice-effective weapon against knights and cavaliers, three once Lyn gets recruited. It's easy to look at his stats in isolation without considering his support options and Prf. weapon, even in an early-game made up primarily of lance users.

Someone really ought to test this. If by some chance a non-garbled enemy portrait comes through on the Battle History page, then the possibilities for pointless fun are endless!

I understand penalizing Eliwood relative to where he was on the list before, but he's been bumped down far too low. At a bare minimum, put the man above Lyn. He's got the one perma-viable A-support in the game with Hector, fantastic availability, and a cavalier and knight slaying Prf. weapon. His stats are comparable to Lyn's, and he gets a pony and lances on promotion instead of just bows; the superior availability and better support options are just icing on the cake compared to his lordly compadre.

My speciality is not in efficiency runs, so this is a most enlightening read. To be clear, however, we're granting units the utility they provide for "forced participation," right? I remember this being a big controversy a few months ago in the Ranked Topic, so I'd like to get this clarified.

Well damn.

This is an awesome idea, and I'd love to sign up for that second pool. Couple of rules that could use improvement/clarification: 1) Chapter restarts are okay, game restarts are not. If you're going to allow restarts because of character deaths, then there's nothing stopping someone from suiciding a character if a chapter didn't go his or her way and trying again. Starting the whole game over, however, is another matter entirely. Upset that you didn't raise X character enough, or missed Y item? Too bad. You can try to master chapters as best you can, but long-term planning oversights are your responsibility to bear. 2) The honor code is not good enough. I understand that this stuff can be a logistical nightmare, but there's an easy way to ensure that people aren't cheating: have everyone keep an ongoing log about the runthrough, and then have everyone take a few screen caps of the turn-count-list during the credit roll. If the numbers in the pictures don't match the reported turn counts in the posts, then something's up. So yeah, count me in for pool #2.

Hey Lifeadmiral! Of course I remember you. Whatever happened to Mori, anyway? She and I played some pretty serious devil's advocate a while back in a previous topic. And that trick sounds like it could be useful every now and again, but like you said, it diminishes the importance of the Funds Rank. The nice thing about the trick is that 32x is late enough in the game so that you can make a save file on Chapter 32, try the trick, and if it costs too much, start back from your old save.

Same thing has happened to me with the mages near the south fortresses. I think it has to do with trying to attack while in the seal perimeter; why Eliwood's sprite, though, I have no idea.

I'm on a bit of an FE7 binge, so I decided to check back in here... these tier list discussions have really heated up again, haven't they? Glad to see healthy discussion's still going on. I still need to read through the full thirty pages, but a couple of questions in the meantime: 1) How does this list value empty slots, and what is the basis of this decision? God knows I don't want to re-open the Gross/Net can of worms, but I didn't see it outlined anywhere. 2) What is Inui's 32x experience trick? I saw it mentioned before, and it sounded pretty cool. Anyone mind clarifying? 3) John Dory, who are you on GameFAQs? Best user name ever, by the way. I have a couple qualms with this list that I'll get into later, but nothing major. Mainly just Guy being a tad too low for my tastes. And hey, I'll jump into this Merlinus argument too! Placing Merlinus has nothing to do with how he affects the ranks. I'm seeing people talk about how he negatively impacts the experience rank by drawing away enemies, or hurting the combat rank, etc. etc., only none of that really matters. Merlnius is so absolutely, unequivocally essential to maintaining an S-Rank that any minor downsides fielding him might have are instantly and utterly trumped by his contributions. He's either technically a unit and goes to the top-of-top, or he remains unranked- there's no middle ground that I can conceive of. What does matter, then, is the definition one uses to qualify a unit. The term's already stretched pretty thin, and branches out to include both combat units and utility units. So what does Merlinus have in common with other PCs? He has a unique unit slot, but so do Hector, Athos, and the occasional forced character, all of which are units. He both actively and passively affects the team: he actively manages items and moves around post-promotion, and passively takes hits and steers enemies away from your other units. The one notable thing missing from Merlinus in comparison to other units is the presence of an active command. "Fight," "Dance," "Steal," and the like are all absent, and he can't even "Wait" until after twenty chapters. John Dory's claim that he "doesn't do anything" is patently false if you're talking about how he impacts the team, but makes a lot more sense if you're talking about active commands. I really don't know where to stand on this one, and if a consensus has already been reached, apologies. I think it's mainly semantics, though, and as Merlinus is a completely unique case, it won't affect other placements in the slightest, so does it really matter? EDIT: So I'm 15 pages in, and this topic has delved headfirst into semantics. Are we really debating whether or not Nino deserves credit for her Talk command with Jaffar? There's a clear distinction between unit commands and plot commands. Fight, Wait, Steal, and the like are unit commands; Talk is a plot command. Support is also a unit command, as it directly contributes to the performance of the unit and nothing else. Does Nino get credit for her Talk command with Jaffar? Yes, but in a limited fashion. Because Nino needs to reach the other side of Battle before Dawn, she'll likely run into other enemy units along the way (assuming she's not being shuttled over there via rescue), which means there's a greater chance of her getting a few more kills. That is what she gets credit for. The same principle is best illustrated in Whereabouts Unknown: because you need Priscilla to recruit Raven, and because bringing two healers is usually superfluous, Priscilla is almost always going to get an extra chapter of heal time over Serra. But does she get credit for Raven's performance? Of course not!

I'd actually advocate using it on Port of Badon, turn 1. Put it on the bottom corridor below the villages and Damian (or whatever his name is) will rush your mine before other enemies have a chance. This allows your horseback unit to rush to Fargus free of worry while your other units can take on the (normally far too powerful to fight directly) main route enemy units.