Bartozio

Atlas 30 Berkut 26 Boey 27 Catria 16 Celica 38 Clair 34 Forsyth 29 Genny 25 Gray 26 Lukas 27 Luthier 9 Mae 28 Mathilda 23 Palla 29 Python 28 Saber 13 Silque 23 Zeke 38

Same Rad, same... all three scum in top 4 suspects....

Also just gonna repeat now that Zeo and Xnad are always town. Basicly all of RAD's reads are based on me being scum, meaning you have nothing definitive on him tommorow. If he flips town and you get a town safe, always lynch Athena for PoE. Good luck.

I'm fine with you suspecting him for interactions with scum!me. I'm about to flip town though, so lets talk about that scenario a bit: not gonna look for a the quote now, but Mack talks about how he doesn't see Evan being scummy ("are the cases on Evan build on anything other then him being wishy washy") and repeating my defence of it being exactly like his tpp play. Would he really do that a few hours before the Evan lynch (can't remember the exact time)?

I don't know how much time is left, so I'm just going to post now: Why in the world does scum!Mack go after me while defending Evan when Evan is a certain lynch? Do you guys honestly believe he has that little game sense? We're saying his play has been super carefull the whole game, but this still makes sense as scum him? Why?

So basicly, Zeo and and Xnad are obv town for me and I won't consider them for scum teams. On others: I've mentioned it a few times, but Fable's play only makes sense with a buddy who thread control for him. The heavy bussing would also mean it's likely someone who's not under heavy suspision. That pretty much leaves Athena for me. I feel Athena never really showed much suspision towards Fable. He made points here and there (like the earlier thing about numbers), but never really went indept I feel. @athena_57 maybe I missed it, but can you give your opinions on Fable? Junk pushing Athena to an early wagon D1 feels odd, and he kept it up quite a bit. Don't think they're buddies. Mack and Junk both going all in pushing me in a last ditch effort to save their buddy doesn't sound like a plausible scenario, as it's way too likely to backfire into horrendous results. Athena and Mack I could see, gonna read into that more later. All in all, Rad and Junko feels more likely though.

Working on it. So far, Athena doesn't make sense as Rad's buddy to me, calling him out on staying under the radar when his other buddy is about to get lynched is.... lol. Junk makes more sense, since all he's ever said about Rad is that his posts just look good. He did suspect Evan during D1 (even voted him), but it was the first vote and unlikely to really go anywhere. Fable is never scum with Rad, for the same reason he's not scum with Zeo (no thread control). Mack I could see being scum with Rad, since he never really mentions him. Junk makes more sense then Mack though, because of his interactions with the Evan wagon. Currently considering scumteams without Rad just in case, will post it in a bit.

Most people on the wagon were only there for pressure, which makes it a pretty tough wagon to actually push over Evan. It's also relevant to note Rad never posted after the wagon started, so he might have actually missed the whole thing. Junk could have decided I was more likely to actually get lynched, since people didn't like my vote on Zeonth, and well.... you started the wagon. I'm pretty convinced Xnad is town anyway, so I guess it's just another good point in favor of Fable and Mack? Actually, not even that, since if Fable is scum, he was hard going for towncred by bussing Evan, so he could very well have hoped the Zeo wagon would go off without him. And I'm not really sure how aware Mack was of what was happening in the thread at the time, considering he only made one post asking me to make sure I responded to stuff if I hadn't. Soooo, it's not really relevant for me in the end.

Not gonna bother quoting people, since most of the game seems to have asked this: I said I was inclined to just lynch Zeo, Fable and Evan because it felt like Zeo was setting up reasons to lynch a towny after a scum lynch. So, I thought he was either planning to lynch town!Makaze after a scum Fable and Evan flip, or town!Evan after a scum!Fable flip. Thus me thinking just lynch until we hit town. This was not a thought out plan and me thinking "yeah, this is obviously the scum team", as I obviously wasn't really scumreading Evan. I was wrong though, so there's that. That's a shame in a sense, because upon further thought, I realized setting up Makaze just in case both his buddies get lynched is way too little return to try and sell such a ridiculous reasoning, so he must have been preparig to keep going after town!Evan after a Fable flip.... Which uhm... new evidence suggests was not the case. So I guess Zeonth just derped. My bad. I don't think Thinking on it more, Fable staying out of the thread actually doesn't make sense if both of his buddies (Zeo and Evan) have no thread pressence at all either, since I don't think he'd want to give up control like that. So... Fable and Zeo never scum together. Considering that, Zeonth's first read post would be close to suicide as scum (his buddies flip clears town!Fable, who he otherwise was scumleaning on, and he has to push his buddy over Fable, and keep pushing him after a Fable flip). This makes... no sense. So Zeonth is town. Sorry for suspecting you mate. Looking at how the wagon developed, I highly doubt Xnad is scum based off this flip, as he was the second vote on the wagon (well, technically that was Mak, but he unvoted), which basicly pulled an Evan wagon back into relevance. He had no need to do so, since he could have very easily kept voting me. If he hadn't done so, wagons would have likely stayed at me and Zeo I think, which would be pretty much ideal for scum. So... Xnad is town, and now I know for sure I was wrong early D1 as well.... neat. Fable was the first vote on the Evan wagon, and he was very much an early driving force for it I think. He could have started there for towncred, not expecting it to pick up so well, but I also feel like he could have easily jumped back to voting me after he made that case regarding my Zeo vote. I kind of doubt scum!Mack would still try to get me lynched and townread Evan when the guys at 5 votes and phase almost over. I really think he'd just cut his losses there. Which leaves me with two people I've tonereading town all game and Rad. So I think this is a good start while I wrap my head around this PoE: ##Vote: @RADicate

Atlas 26 Berkut 25 Boey 27 Catria 19 Celica 37 Clair 34 Fernand 14 Forsyth 19 Genny 26 Gray 23 Lukas 27 Luthier 21 Mae 26 Mathilda 25 Mycen 8 Palla 30 Python 22 Rinea 13 Saber 25 Silque 23 Zeke 37

Atlas 24 Berkut 24 Boey 26 Catria 17 Celica 36 Clair 34 Fernand 18 Forsyth 19 Genny 26 Gray 20 Lukas 27 Luthier 21 Mae 28 Mathilda 27 Mycen 10 Palla 30 Python 22 Rinea 16 Saber 25 Silque 23 Tobin 7 Zeke 37

Sorry, but I'm tired and I already quoted you in my wall (so it should be easy to find). If you feel like it's not in there, let me know and I'll reiterate, but I feel I explained it there. If that covers it, please respond to my Fable case (more then "one liners are bad" please) in said wall and Zeonths inconsistency I just posted?

It does, thank you. This is basicly a lie then, because Makaze being more likely scum when the other two flip scum directly contradicts with this. (they're unlikely all 3 scum, but if two flip scum, the other is more likely scum.) Also hard dissagree with the first quote in general, I doubt Makaze pushes both buddies the whole time (way too likely to lose both, and probably a scum pr in the process), but I could see one. ##Unvote ##Vote: @Zeonth Please explain the inconsistency. I seriously feel like lynching all 3 (Zeonth, Fable and Evan) now until we hit a town, but let me sit on this for a night on whether I'm being paranoid or not.

Then I assume you're saying you can see this as bad town play? Asking because I'm having trouble seeing it like that. Okay, we're good up till here. okay, fair enough. Okay, so are you saying that after Fable and Evan both flip scum, scum!Makaze becomes more or less likely? Do you think a theorectical scum!Makaze is more likely to bus one buddy (say Makaze/Evan/notFable), instead of both his buddies (Makaze/Evan/Fable)? I understand everything is possible, I want to know what you find more likely, cause it's confusing me.

I agree with the notion of it being really unlikely all three are scum and Makaze being the most towny. What makes you disregard Evan and Fable as mafia bussing though, considering you think they're both individual scummy? Wait, what? Why in the world does Evan and Fable flipping scum make scum!Makaze more likely, when you "view it as almost impossible that all three are scum based on their history of interactions"?

@athena_57 sleep is for the weak, have more reading material.

He should see an Eury wall, before calling these jokes wallposts Not good honestly. He mostly just responds to random things, instead of focussing on who he feels are scummy. It's either bad time management as town, or an attempt to hide in the background as scum. Considering how his posts feel disconnected from one another and don't really draw conclusions or even bring up past suspicions, more inclined to go with the later. <formatted for an easier reading time> Quick example of what I'm talking about, he comes to a very weak conclusion (1 in 3 people maybe being scum when 25% of the game is scum is barely a read), and doesn't put in any effort to figure out who of these three is more likely the scum member. I don't think he even mentions Athena or Junk afterwards, and while he does mention me, it never seems to relate to this theory. Still dislike Fable more, but willing to consolidate here. @athena_57 and @Makaze, can you guys respond to my Fable case, other then one line being the bane of all evil?

He had a spat with Via not unlike the recent one with Fable, and his posts were all over the place as well with even less content. I don't think people are scum for playing like they did in a town game, sorry dude. In a vacuum, it's bad because if he thinks I'm town, he should try to convince people to not lynch me, instead of just stating his read (makes it seem more likely he wants to profit from a misslynch). I can see town!him wanting to focus more on finding scum though, and I'm not sure scum!him would risk shading Fable like that when he could just sit back and watch me get lynched (this part is obviously meaningless if you think we're scum together though).

I get missinterpreted and misslynched basicly every game I play, so I think I have reasons to double check what I read. And even if I didn't, it's mostly a habbit anyway. Your mentor played one game with me, where he subbed in at a point where I was hard flaking. I'm honestly amazed if he thinks he can derive my general playstyle from that.He also never played town me. (Besides, SB would have convinced me to convince the rest fo the team to fear kill you purely for your mentor if I was scum.) Second line is fine, but then your initial phrasing was pretty missleading. The shading is bad, but it reminds me of my previous game with Evan (where he was town). His cases don't seem that bad, although some are missinformed (you trying to cw Evan when Mak had more votes is odd, but you did indeed suspect his earlier). It's like... his posts are bad, but they're better then last game, so I'm not really scumreading him for it? It makes no sense to me to not lynch people who I feel are obvious scum, just because it seems too obvious. Not every scum player is a good one, some are just easier to catch.

I don't really understand what you mean by preparedness here, even after reading your whole post. Can you elaborate? Do you think I was expecting Xnads reaction and prepared a response before reading it? There's two or three people in this game that have played with me enough to know my meta, and I can't remember them talking about my meta on this point. Your mentor shouldn't really know it either. Please post quotes or tell me who you were talking to in the scum chat? I think you're mixing up his reads not being good enough and me thinking he had them about a full day before posting them. Evan hadn't posted in eons and he already mentioned being frustrated with you several times earlier. That's what making me conclude he's stalling. You're right in that I copied things from text documents both times. I don't get what you're trying to say with the bolded statement, but me typing them both out in notepad first isn't an explanation for anything (apart from the linebreaks, lol), so whatever. I rethink what I'm typing a lot, as both scum and town, both in and outside mafia. Somethings I type out, think nah, that's not right, and maul over several minutes, and some thing I just write at once because my mind doesn't feel the need to rethink it. I guess the latter feels more natural to you? Also, you checked it with a scumgame of mine, but did you bother checking a towngame as well to be sure I don't just always do that? I didn't post a lot in IDNSFMM, so you can probably check it with that? Any other recent game here apart from Brexitland (didn't play) and Persona 5 (scumgame) should do as well. I felt the Fable case was easy enough it didn't need more then one line, lol. Satsuma was a consolidation, so it obviously doesn't have as strong a reason. Fable only had my vote a few hours before deadline, excuse me for assuming he wasn't getting lynched? As I said before, litterally nobody seemed to understand my reason for finding him scummy, so I was just happy someone arrived at the same conclusion. It was Xnads later posts that made me change my read, I still think my initial reasoning was valid (as in, the right in 90% of the cases but Xnad was among the other 10% kind of thing).

^meta talk that I really feel like sharing, but isn't really relevant right now, since I'm not scumreading Fable for it. I can understand wanting to wait for Evan, even though I personally feel being away is NAI. The Makaze case feels like it's unnecessary to wait though. Like, you mentioned him not giving reasons when you or other people asked and him not trying to engage you. If you felt that to be true, why did you think time would make a difference? Add to that the fact that you didn't really talk about what Mak had been doing in the time you waited (he did actually engage people about other suspects), and it makes me very doubtful you were expecting anything to change. Heck, your case should have felt good enough if he refused to talk to people about why you were scum.

Makaze trying to bulldoze a lynch instead of actually solving the game and you thinking Evan would try harder to get reads as town.

Good reasons for why I'm not just right*

Before I forget, please tell me why you all think Fable is not scummy for refusing to post cases when he has them. If you're all going to accuse me of making a lazy vote, I'm sure you have good reasons for that. ##Vote: @Fable

Sup guys, I'm here now. Skimmed the thread. Gonna respond to stuff first since uhm... yeah... Being lazy would be not wanting to read stuff, or writing out a huge wallpost. That's not what this is. He has been voicing frustration with Makaze since quite a while before that vote, so he clearly wasn't too lazy to post. It reads to me like he basicly said "my meta is not posting for a hlaf a day, so I don't have to post for half a day". More in general, In IDNSFMM, he didn't really contribute early day either, but it was pretty clear there that he just didn't have real reads. Here he had them, but choose to wait with posting them. Town would want to actually push stuff they find scummy right away, since it gives them more time to convince others. Scum would love to wait with playing seriously if they can get away with it, because it's less opportunities to get caught. This feels like a really easy conclusion to me, but considering I seem to be the consensus scumread instead of him, apparently I'm wrong (about it being obvious)? Can people please explain to me how this makes sense for Fable as town? For instance, he mentioned he'd vote Satsuma if he wasn't so sure about me being scum, where he could easily get away with not giving such strong opinions on others and just stick to shouting how I'm obv scum. I was about to go to sleep though, so I was either going to consolidate at that time, or not at all. I could have held out hope for a Fable lynch, sure, but it didn't seem likely to happen, and I didn't want the lynch to suddenly go to Athena or Makaze (who I think where the people with the most votes after Satsuma). Consolidation, as explained above. Uhm, are you implying my vote was partly responsible for making the Satsuma wagon explode? Since I'm pretty sure I was one of the last people voting him. I voted Satsuma anyway because: 1. Sticking to meta that's easy to fake and basicly beneficial for scum doesn't make you town. 2. I was townreading the other consolidation options. 3. As mentioned before, he started picking up D1 in IDNSFMM, which he didn't do here, eventhough I felt like there was more to comment on. Basicly, null to slight scumlean > townread. I literally stated this to be my reason when I voted him. I took a step back to reconsider things, since I felt things weren't going anywhere. Basicly, as frustrating as you not understanding my logic at all is, I felt like you were at least putting actual thought into things. It also makes it more likely you'd arrive at different conclusions/have different tactics during rvs then me, since your way of thinking is apparently quite different. Which makes me more willing to believe you actually didn't see Athena was just joking, which kind of undermines my initial read. I believe myself to be very convincing. People's reads often change during rvs in my experience, since they're based on so little (so more information can easily become more relevant), so it didn't bother me as much. Considering how much he was trying to start something around that time, him sheeping me to get a wagon started and apply pressure also wasn't an unlikely scenario. I made a joke response to him concluding my case was filled with leaps of logic, sure, but I also explained my thought process behind everything he called a leap. Most of his counterarguments were about my logic not making sense, what would you expect me to do other then explain why they did make sense? Maybe I was already entering tunnel mode, but with nobody seemingly understanding my case and Xnad getting called town for calling my logic flawed when I was very convinced it wasn't (still am actually, I'd make that case again on people I don't know to ignore rvs) was making me pretty frustrated. The part of "I read his response" wasn't really a hesitation though? I don't mind Athena giving an easy answer because I wasn't scumreading him for engaging Xnad in the first place. I thought he was joking, so him responding to that question saying he was joking doesn't raise any alarms for me. On the other hand, Xnad was suspecting Athena for engaging him the way he did. That's a pretty big difference in perspective starting out. It's fine if he doesn't make reads because he doesn't have them. It's not fine if he doesn't make reads while actually having them. That concludes my responses, please let me know if I missed something or something wasn't clear. I'll be ISO'ing people and solving this game in the meantime.